The Economy

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

I knew I had a sense of déjà vu when I heard the Chancellor speak, and I remember from when: it was from when I was a child listening to “Jackanory.” This is exactly the same: story time. The previous Prime Minister published a proper economic assessment of her Brexit deal; why will this current Prime Minister not do the same? For heaven’s sake, just answer the question.

[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Lady was a fan of “Jackanory”; now I know why she joined the Labour party. It is all fitting into place.

On that point, some Members may point to the economic analysis, as the hon. Lady has, that was published by the Government in November of last year, but that document looks at the possible economic impact of a generic average free trade agreement; it does not represent the ambitious free trade agreement that we have agreed. We have agreed with the EU that both parties will have a deep, best-in-class free trade agreement that is far more ambitious on things like data exchange, tariffs, energy and financial services, and none of those benefits are captured in the Government’s previous modelling. So it is clear that what we need to do is this: end the dither and delay and move forward as a country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr Gyimah), who manages to expose both the extremism and the opportunism of the current Government. There was a time in history when some parliamentarians were given four hours to speak in the Chamber. Today we get four minutes, so I am sure Members will forgive me if I concentrate on one of the many issues that is missing from this Queen’s Speech—or, should I say, the phantom Queen’s Speech, since we know it will not really be enacted.

I want to touch on a subject that is of great concern to my constituents and without which I do not believe we will have any economic justice, which is the need for the total overhaul of universal credit. I am cautious about calling for things to be scrapped, but the current set-up is so irredeemable that that is probably the only remedy. The ridiculous waits of five, six or more weeks were always going to lead to debt and inhumane food bank usage. The creation of a system where housing payments did not go to landlords was always likely to create a nonsensical set-up, which my grandmother would probably have referred to as money down the drain. Tied in with that is the random, ineffective and, in some cases, downright inhumane ways in which people with terminal conditions are assessed.

My constituent Jenny puts it rather better than I can, and this is a metaphor of what has gone wrong. She writes:

“In June I was told I needed to apply for universal credit, moving my existing housing benefit claim and child tax credits over from the Council and HMRC to Universal Credit. I was told that there was a 5 week assessment period, followed by a 1 week payment verification period so 6 weeks. My Child tax credit was stopped completely leaving me with no income for 6 weeks. When I complained, they said I could loan the money but needed to repay it. I was initially advised by the Job Centre to apply for Job Seekers Allowance even though they didn’t think I was eligible and they were vague. I ended up complaining. Then I was advised to apply for both Jobseekers Allowance and Universal Credit. They said it would be back dated to June and corrected if wrong.”

On and on this continues:

“Weeks passed and my Universal Credit was calculated. They are taking £120 per month from me for the ‘loan’ of money so I get this instead of receiving child tax credit. Technically I have lost out on 6 weeks of child tax credits. It’s a lot of money to lose, people are still eligible for it, yet it’s been stopped for 6 weeks. Now I’m expected to pay back this loan that I was forced to take to feed my children while they take their time assessing what they already have on record.”

So this continues. She now says:

“I’m just going through a few tests at the moment as I’ve been immobile and in severe pain with my spine. I have to provide proof of medical appointments, private Osteopath receipts and NHS reports which are private. A sick note from a qualified GP won’t do. I’ve also had to deliver my GP sick note in person as they will not allow me to email it to them. I live in a village and it can be difficult to get to town when I’m in debilitating pain and on strong medication. Susan, I hope you can raise these points in the House of Commons as in this day and age, no families with young children should be forced into debt by Universal Credit and the Government. There are families left in debt depending on food banks etc once their Universal Credit loans are deducted. All this has a terrible effect on people’s mental health and I feel the system is just trying to trip people over with sanctions.”

The Government may have warm words, the Prime Minister may even have words in Latin—well, I have a few in English and Welsh that I could give back to him. [Interruption.] No, no, I don’t swear, but I will tell you this: it is about time we had a Government who listened to people such as Jenny and who combined prosperity and social justice in this country.

Summer Adjournment

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Thursday 25th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow all colleagues who have spoken in this debate. This year marks the 75th anniversary of the D-day landings in Normandy, and although many Members of the House—and, indeed, outside it—are far more qualified to speak on that issue than me, I wish to use my role as co-chair of the all-party group on charities and volunteering to thank those voluntary organisations that exist to support veterans and their families, including current serving personnel.

The Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund marks its centenary this year. It was set up by Lord Trenchard with donations from the public, and it still supports veterans, serving personnel, and their families. All support is tailor-made, but the charity provides assistance in 12 key areas: financial assistance with day-to-day living costs; unemployment, retraining and resettlement support; help with housing; disability adaptations and aids round the home; mobility equipment; care costs; support for carers; wellbeing holiday breaks; help with funeral costs; benefits advice; housing and care advocacy; emotional health and wellbeing, and so much more.

Like many of the finest charities, the fund works in partnership with others, including case working organisations such as SSAFA and the Royal Air Forces Association, which have direct contact with those who need their assistance. Every serving member of the RAF voluntarily donates half a day’s pay to the fund, and last year it spent £21.4 million on supporting beneficiaries, meaning that more than 55,000 people received RAF Benevolent Fund support.

I have chosen to mention that fund today because it wants more beneficiaries. This year, the charity launched a new campaign—Join the Search. Change a Life—to raise awareness of the fund, and to find RAF veterans and their families who have fallen off the radar and help them before it is too late. It is concentrating specifically on the national service generation. There are currently 1.5 million people in what is described as the RAF family, three-quarters of whom are over 65. Worryingly, the benevolent fund estimates that up to 300,000 members of the RAF family could be in need of support, with about 100,000 of those in urgent need.

The benevolent fund wishes to double the number of people it supports and ensure its sustainability for years to come. I am pleased and privileged to raise the matter in the House. We never know who reads these debates in Hansard, follows them in the media or watches BBC Parliament, but we know there are a lot of such people. If only a few of them are able to get in touch with the Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund and help someone in need, my small contribution to today’s important debate will have been worth it.

Excessive Speeding and Driving Bans

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Thursday 23rd May 2019 Commons Chamber

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

The subject of my Adjournment debate—excessive speeding and driving bans—is very serious. I do not like reading out speeches, but this is a pretty technical issue and there are many factual points that I want to raise, so I apologise in advance that I will be doing a little more reading than I would like. I emphasise that this is an immensely serious issue of great concern around the country. I will be asking three questions at the end of my speech. I hope that the Minister will be able to answer them directly, but if, for any reason, she cannot do so in the detail that we would all like, I would appreciate a written response from her.

I want to emphasise two key points about excessive speeding and driving bans: first, the need for tougher action to tackle speeding offences; and, secondly, the need to explore how technology can be used to improve road safety and reduce the number of unnecessary deaths that occur on our roads. According to the most recent official statistics from the Department for Transport, in 2017, in the UK, there were 24,831 serious injuries in road traffic accidents reported to the police, with 1,793 people killed in road traffic accidents—nearly five people a day. I am worried about the 9% increase in fatalities among motorcyclists and the 5% increase in pedestrian fatalities between 2016 and 2017. While I welcome the slight fall of 4% in fatalities among car drivers, we all know that the figure is still far too high. Any fatality on our roads is one fatality too many.

In 2017, the custody rate for motoring offences was 1%. When an offender was sentenced to immediate custody, the average length of a custodial sentence was only 8.2 months. In 2017, the number of offenders directly disqualified from driving actually decreased by 8%—from 63,000 in 2016 to 58,000 in 2017. This concerns me, and I know it concerns many others, too.

I do not think that any of us will be surprised by the fact that speeding is the most common driving offence on UK roads. It currently accounts for around one fifth of road fatalities. In 2017, across Wales as a whole, 500 drivers a day were caught speeding. I appreciate that velocities differ, and I am concentrating on the highest speeds, but that is still a worrying statistic. In 2017, according to House of Commons Library statistics, just under 20,200 speed limit motoring offences were recorded by North Wales police alone—a 73% increase on the number recorded in 2011. About 86% of the speed limit offences were recorded through cameras, such as fixed-place speed cameras. Of the 20,200 or so speeding limit offences recorded by North Wales police, most resulted in a fine, with fewer than 3,000 leading to the driver facing court action. The sentence for the vast majority of those who were subsequently convicted at court was just a fine.

It is my strongly held belief that collisions and road traffic accidents are not inevitable and that we should not accept them as such. Cycling UK has stated that whereas society expects high safety standards in various aspects of our lives in which there are inherent risks, there sometimes seems to be a different culture on the roads. I agree with its calls for greater use of lengthy driving bans, both as a penalty and in order to protect the public. Convicted drivers consistently avoid driving bans by resorting to claims that such a ban will cause them “exceptional hardship”. In January 2017, according to Cycling UK, almost 10,000 drivers were still allowed to drive even though they had amassed 12 points or more on their licence, and that is despite the fact that those who accumulate that many points should automatically face disqualification from driving.

Brake, the road safety charity, has echoed calls for those who have 12 points on their licence to be prevented from invoking the argument of “exceptional hardship” and instead face an automatic driving ban. This is something I strongly agree with. Drivers who have accumulated more than 12 points on their licence have, in my view and that of many others, been given ample opportunity to comply with the law. They have instead shown a repeated disregard for driving safely and legally. I believe that they should not be allowed to continually flout the law and face little more than a fine.

Guidance from the RAC states that if someone has been caught speeding and the offence is referred to court, they could face an instant driving ban. However, magistrates will generally consider imposing a ban only if someone has been caught driving at more than 45% over the speed limit. That means that they would need to be driving at more than 51 mph in a 30 mph limit, 85 mph in a 60 mph limit or—for heaven’s sake—100 mph in a 70 mph limit. There is little uniformity between the speeds offenders drive at or the offences they commit, and the punishment imposed.

Many examples could be cited, but let me set out a couple from north Wales. A motorcyclist who was caught driving at 138 mph in a 60 mph area on the A5 not far from Corwen got a fine of just over £600 and a 90-day driving ban, so he was back on the roads three months later. There was also the driver of what the press referred to as a “supercar”. He was banned from driving for 56 days for driving at 122 mph, again on a single carriageway road with a 60 mph limit.

Last year I submitted a written parliamentary question to ask the Ministry of Justice how many drivers who have been subject to a driving ban go on to commit further driving offences after their ban has expired. I am concerned that the Department’s response was that it does not hold such data.

In the road safety factsheet that it published last year, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents made a very important point:

“There is no doubt that inappropriate speed is one of the most serious road safety problems on Britain’s roads, and causes death and injury to thousands of people each year. Unfortunately, the public has not yet accepted the danger caused by speeding drivers in the same way as the danger caused by drink-drivers.”

Many of us will remember the 1970s and 1980s when there was quite a different culture surrounding drink-driving. None of us would ever want to return to that, but a real case can be made that we are in the same place today in terms of excessive speeds on our roads.

I think it is time for us to review and increase the length of driving bans. I also believe that we need more police monitoring of rural roads. According to the Institute of Advanced Motorists, those are the roads on which most fatal crashes take place. We should also take note of a recent report by Brake, which was based on an extensive survey of drivers. The report questions whether the legal limit on single carriageway roads should be 60 mph. The Brake report noted that fewer than a quarter of drivers—23%—stated that 60 mph was a safe speed for a vehicle on a road on which there may be people on foot, bicycles and horses. The report also noted that drivers either wanted, or were ambivalent about, a reduction to the default 60 mph limit on rural roads, with fewer than one in five—19%—objecting to a reduction. That survey gives us food for thought.

--- Later in debate ---

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Mike Freer.)

[Susan Elan Jones]

The motion lapsed at an extremely convenient time, Madam Deputy Speaker, as I am now moving on to the second part of my speech.

I turn to technology, and specifically what technology now makes possible. I believe that we can and should do a lot more to effectively utilise technological developments so that we reduce the number of driving offences and the casualties that result from them. I know that Ministers have made positive statements in this regard, and I really hope that we can progress well on this.

Intelligent speed adaptation—ISA—is a system that compares the local speed limit to the vehicle speed. As well as advising the driver when they are exceeding the speed limit, an ISA system can limit engine power when necessary to help to prevent the driver from exceeding the current speed limit. The European Transport Safety Council has described intelligent speed adaptation as

“probably the single most effective new vehicle safety technology currently available in terms of its life-saving potential”.

The council expects that, with mass adoption and use, ISA could reduce collisions by 30% and deaths by 20%. In June 2015, the London Mayor and Transport for London announced that ISA would be trialled on 47 London buses. According to the results of the trial, which were announced in March 2016, TfL found the technology to be “particularly effective” when buses drove through zones with a 20 mph limit, and the technology ensured that the buses taking part in the trial remained within the speed limit between 97% and 99% of the time. In the light of the trial, TfL has required all new buses entering service from 2017 to have this technology fitted.

The technology is not just applicable to commercial vehicles, and the European Transport Safety Council is calling for ISA to be fitted on all new vehicles as standard. I think that that is an extremely good idea. In France, it is mandatory for all motor vehicles to carry a breathalyser, and fines are imposed on drivers who are found to be in breach of that obligation. A step up from that is an alcohol interlock. Alcohol interlocks are breathalysers that require the driver to blow into a breathalyser before they can begin to drive. If the driver tries to start the car while over the drink-drive limit, the vehicle is immobilised. Let me be clear that I am not suggesting this for all drivers, but there is a strong case for making it a condition that people who have been convicted of drink or drug-related driving offences must use the technology when they get their licence back.

Alcohol interlocks are already mandatory in Belgium for repeat drink-drive offenders. Many other European countries, including Denmark, Finland, the Netherlands, Poland and Sweden, have introduced either compulsory or voluntary alcohol interlocks for drink-drive offenders. In the UK, the Durham police force is carrying out a voluntary trial of such devices for those convicted of drink-driving. The Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety—PACTS—suggested in its October 2017 report commemorating 50 years of the breathalyser that the UK Government should review the potential role of alcohol interlocks. I strongly agree with that.

According to Wasted Lives, an award-winning young driver education programme, road collisions are the biggest killer of 15 to 24-year-olds in the UK. House of Commons Library research shows that, despite making up only 7% of drivers, young people aged between 17 and 24 represent nearly 20% of people killed or seriously injured in car crashes. Those statistics show that we need more action to keep younger drivers safe. There is also a serious case for a graduated driving licence, and I welcome the UK Government’s pilot scheme in Northern Ireland.

A further measure that could be implemented is the greater use of telematics devices, which track and score individual driving behaviour, with the information then used to calculate insurance premiums. Telematics insurance offers an incentive to drivers to drive carefully and safely, because the better the policyholder’s driving, the lower their premium. Telematics devices can record maximum and average speeds, acceleration, braking, cornering and impact. Research by LexisNexis Risk Solutions concludes that telematics insurance has done more to cut accident risk than any other road safety initiative aimed at the young driver market.

Perhaps the Minister will also consider the merits of using telematics devices to monitor the driving behaviour of those who have previously been banned from driving. It could be made a condition of a licence return following a driving ban that a telematics device is fitted in the offender’s car. Any driver found to be repeatedly driving carelessly or dangerously, and hence continuing to pose a danger to other road users, could then have their licence revoked.

In 2015, a driver on the A495 near Bronington in my constituency was filmed performing two dangerous overtakes on a blind bend. Video evidence of the dangerous manoeuvre was captured by the dash camera of a car behind him, and the footage was used as evidence to secure the overtaking driver’s conviction for dangerous driving. In response to the increasing number of such submissions from members of the public, Operation Snap was launched in December 2017. The initiative was initially devised and piloted by North Wales police and the Road Casualty Reduction Partnership, and has now been adopted across Wales. The campaign allows the public to submit footage from helmet or dash cameras and smartphones to Welsh police forces via a website. The police can then use such footage to investigate and prosecute driving offences.

Since the official launch of Operation Snap, an average of 140 videos and images a month have been uploaded through the website, with the footage used in a number of prosecutions. It is an important initiative. The Transport Committee’s 2016 “Road traffic law enforcement” review concluded that if there is to be effective enforcement of speed limits as the number of dedicated road policing officers falls, the use of technology will be essential—I totally agree.

I conclude my speech with three main questions for the Minister. First, what will she do to ensure that tougher action is taken to tackle speeding offences, and will she ensure that more lengthy driving bans are awarded? Secondly, will she consider removing the “exceptional hardship” argument as a way for drivers who accumulate more than 12 points on their driving licence to avoid deserved driving bans? Thirdly, what will she do to explore ways in which technology can be used to improve road safety, particularly with regard to European Transport Safety Council recommendations? I look forward to hearing from the Minister, and to us all working together to do whatever we can to stop accidents and fatalities on our roads. It is very important that we tackle this issue.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

It is good to see you in your place, Madam Deputy Speaker, for this final debate before the recess, which is a good omen for when we return.

I thank the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) for raising the important subject of excessive speeding and driving bans. I also thank her for extending the opportunity for us to continue working together on an issue on which she has not only campaigned for a long time but has been given an award.

[Susan Elan Jones]

The Minister mentions the award from Brake, the road safety charity, and I pay tribute to the community of Overton in my constituency. There was a terrible road traffic incident, after which the community came together to campaign on this issue. I feel that this very important award belongs as much to my constituents as it does to me.

[Ms Ghani]

The hon. Lady, true to form, shares the praise with all those who have worked behind the scenes, which has been noted.

The hon. Lady was probably expecting my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman), who has been promoted, but I hope she will be pleased with my response. I do not want Hansard or any journalists to be confused: I have not been promoted for long, just for the next 15 minutes.

Road safety is a top priority for the Government. Road deaths are a tragedy for all affected, and injuries can cause suffering and life-changing misfortune. Much of that harm is avoidable, and it is not an inevitable consequence of road transport. As the hon. Member for Clwyd South mentioned, all available research shows a link between excessive speed and the risk of collisions. Increased compliance with speed limits, as part of a wider package of road safety measures, will play a significant role in reducing the number of collisions on our roads.

I share the hon. Lady’s concern that people who drive at appalling speeds, risking the lives of others as well as their own, are too often back behind the wheel too soon. However, sentencing is a matter for our independent courts and is based on the facts of each case. A driving ban, the length of which is at the discretion of the judge, is already an option, and guidance is issued by the Sentencing Council. This is not something on which the Department can intervene. The judiciary are constitutionally independent of the Government, and it is important that no action is taken that may undermine this fundamental principle.

It may help if I say something about the totting up of points. If an offender amasses 12 penalty points or more within a three-year period, a minimum six-month disqualification must be ordered. An offender disqualified in this way may also be ordered to take an extended driving test. Offenders who are disqualified for 56 days or more have to apply for a new licence.

However, courts have the discretion not to disqualify, or to impose a reduced disqualification, if there are mitigating circumstances or exceptional hardship—the hon. Lady raised that issue. This is wholly up to the courts and, again, is not something that the Department can influence, but the Department always notes what is raised in the Chamber. We know the media have reported cases where drivers with many points are still behind the wheel.

At this point I ought to say something about the relative responsibilities of the Department for Transport and the Welsh Assembly. Much road safety legislation and policy is devolved to Wales and Scotland. As well as being responsible for their own trunk road networks, they set policy on safety cameras and issue guidance on setting speed limits. They have legislative competence on all the substantial provisions of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 concerning speed limits and traffic signs.

The enforcement of speed limits is an operational matter for the police. Policing in England and Wales is divided into territorial forces, with the Westminster Government setting policing policy. It is for chief police officers to decide how to prioritise enforcement in accordance with their local priorities and demand. Their police and crime commissioner’s police and crime plan can also be used to address this issue. Individual police forces may also work with local communities and local volunteers to tackle speeding, taking specific local needs into account.

The penalties for excessive speed start with informal advice—the hon. Lady has campaigned on this—because, of course, the more that people are aware, the more they will hopefully monitor their speed. Where such advice is not appropriate, drivers are prosecuted by means of a fixed penalty notice or, in the most serious cases, a postal charge bringing them before the court.

Current guidelines issued by the National Police Chiefs’ Council allow police the discretion to take account of the individual circumstances of each speeding offence, and to take the action they consider appropriate. This ensures that the focus of attention is on the most serious offending and those individuals who clearly and deliberately break the law. The guidelines also seek to provide consistency of treatment from forces in different parts of the country and to set out the principles that underline the police’s approach to enforcement of the law on speeding. However, these are only guidelines, and there are no plans to change this or advise the police how to enforce speed limits.

The hon. Lady mentioned Operation Snap, and I agree with her on the outcomes of that programme. The police have introduced Operation Snap, which has used media such as dashcam evidence, helmet cameras or personal video for the detection of road traffic offences that do not involve a collision. I agree that this is an example of innovation that tackles those driving offences that the public want the police to deal with. It also significantly reduces the time for the police to make a decision on an offence. The aim of Operation Snap is to improve driver behaviour. This is important to note, because she spoke about the anti-drink-driving campaigns back in the day, which changed people’s attitudes completely. If drivers perceive that they could be prosecuted for driving poorly, we hope that they will not drive poorly to begin with, thus reducing the likelihood of a collision.

The hon. lady also talked about sentencing and penalties. After a full consultation, in October 2017 the Ministry of Justice confirmed Government plans to introduce life sentences for drivers responsible for the deaths of other road users. The proposals that were confirmed include: increasing the maximum penalty for causing death by dangerous driving from 14 years to life; increasing the maximum penalty for causing death by careless driving while under the influence of drink or drugs from 14 years to life; and creating a new offence of causing serious injury by careless driving. Sentencing remains a matter for the courts, but raising the maximum penalty will give the courts the tools to deal with the most serious cases. The legislation will be brought forward as soon as parliamentary time allows.

The hon. Lady also made powerful points about drink-driving, and I wish to confirm that the Government currently have no immediate plans to lower the drink-drive limit in England and Wales. Our approach to tackling drink-driving is through rigorous enforcement, penalties and changing the social acceptability of drink-driving in the first place.

The hon. Lady made some good comments about the Brake report, which we welcome as it highlights the important aspects of road safety. Last June, the Government announced their intention to publish the refreshed road safety statement and the two-year road safety action plan later this year, to address four priority user groups: young people, rural road users, motorcyclists and older vulnerable users.

The hon. Lady made some important points about technology. We are currently engaged in negotiations as part of the EU’s third mobility package, which will introduce intelligent speed-adaptation devices in vehicles in the future. She made a powerful point about telematics. I do not want to stray into another Minister’s area of responsibility at the Dispatch Box, so I will offer the hon. Lady the opportunity to meet the relevant Minister once they have settled into their post.

I emphasise that we are determined to improve safety on our roads for all road users, and to see to it that offenders receive the justice that they deserve. I do not doubt that, just like the previous Minister, the new Minister will take this issue incredibly seriously. If I have not covered all the hon. Lady’s points, I will ensure that any that are outstanding are covered in a written response. I congratulate the hon. Lady on being a strong campaigner on this issue and on bringing this important debate to the House.

I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for all your work, and I thank the Clerks, the Doorkeepers, and everyone who works in the Tea Room and the Library and keeps us going, as well as the wonderful team from the Department for Transport, who keep the Ministers going. I hope that everybody has a wonderful recess, although I am a little nervous because I am being joined by my parents-in-law, Tim and Wendy Wheeldon. They will be spending time with their daughter-in-law in the constituency of Wealden. I am pleased to be spending the recess with my husband, David, but my daughter, Farah, is going to become a teenager, as she turns 13 on 1 June, so this might not be a quiet recess and I may wish to get back to work sooner than my colleagues.

IR35 Tax Reforms

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Thursday 4th April 2019 Westminster Hall

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gapes, and to follow my hon. Friends the Members for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Ged Killen) and for Brentford and Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury).

From discussing the issue with constituents, trying to read up on it and coming here today, the thing that really strikes me is how complicated it is. It is clearly complicated for most of us, as well as for the people who have to deal with it on a day-to-day basis. Obviously, nobody likes tax loopholes. My hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West gave an example of one that is clearly unethical and wrong. What made me realise more about all this is that a lot of the people who are affected by this want flexible working relationships. They have to respond to peaks and troughs in their businesses, and we need a system that works for them.

My hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West brought up concerns about the implementation of IR35 legislation in the public sector, and raised the CBI’s concerns about its implementation in the private sector. He also mentioned the clarification that can be provided by the recommendations of the Taylor review. We would all welcome clarification on this issue. I do not know whether I speak for other hon. Members, but the more I tried to read about it, the more complicated it became.

I want to raise a couple of issues from my constituency, which have been raised by people who have to deal with the system and who have very real concerns. Let me refer to the case of Kaye Edwards from Acrefair. Kaye is a freelancer and runs a consultancy business in Liverpool that has secured assignments for many other freelancers during the last 10 years. She has serious concerns about the off-payroll IR35 tax legislation in the public sector, and believes it would dramatically damage the UK if it were extended to the private sector. She believes her personal assignments and her company will be severely impacted by the proposed legislation. She states that her company is small and struggled through the credit crunch. She is of the opinion that companies like hers helped to bolster the economy during that period and are now battling uncertainty, which is not helped by the issues surrounding Brexit.

Kaye believes that the administration and lack of clarity on off-payroll legislation will make it either very difficult or untenable to continue her business. She believes that there are real concerns about the responses from HMRC and the Treasury. I am drawn to think of what my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West said about HMRC and its lack of success rate in the cases that have brought against it.

Kaye Edwards claims that there have been many recent surveys on what would happen if IR35 were applied to the private sector. She thinks the widespread theme is that UK businesses will be subject to major disruption on all fronts. Increasing costs, shrinking talent pools, reduced flexibility, and legal challenges to status assessments are among the hurdles that firms are expected to have to navigate. She is fearful that the costs of doing business will rise, and claims that any current and future projects that are already planned for, costed, in progress and/or are funded by investment will be affected. She is especially fearful of how this will affect people working in IT, and feels that it could make some projects on low margins unprofitable, leading to cancellations and job losses. She is someone who has to deal with the situation on a day-to-day basis.

I have heard from another constituent on this issue. He runs a small company that is trying to develop its supply chain. Owing to the nature of the business, my constituent engages only in contract work, which involves travelling across the country. As such, he claims expenses for travel, accommodation, food and so forth. HMRC allows contractors working in the private sector to claim back 5% of the income that is generated through a contract to offset the admin costs of running a business. However, my constituent says other expenses will not be claimable. He argues that recent changes to travel and subsistence allowance mean that the contractors working under the rules of IR35 will not be able to claim on everyday expenses, such as travel, hotels, meals and so on. He believes that HMRC will reclassify those earnings as liable to tax and national insurance contributions if they do not meet its test. My constituent claims that this is notoriously difficult to do; in many cases, contractors’ expenses will not meet the test, causing a significant loss of income.

I apologise for reading that word-for-word; with the complexities involved, I am rather fearful of not doing so. Can the Minister clarify some of those concerns? My constituents are committed to the business work that they do, and these sorts of workers are very important in my local area. However, they are clearly worried about the proposed changes. I hope the Minister reassures us in some way and deals with the situation—it is causing great concern to my constituents who are likely to be affected by it.

Communities: Charities and Volunteers

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 13th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Martin Docherty-Hughes]

I could not disagree with the hon. Member on a range of matters, and I do not on the over-75s licence fee issue. It is incomprehensible to me why the BBC would even consider such a thing, given that social isolation is a profound issue across not only older age, but a whole gamut of ages. I may come to that point in a moment.

The right to form voluntary organisations—charities or unincorporated organisations—is a fundamental pillar of a modern, liberal democracy. Such organisations are founded on the lived experiences of communities, on geography, on choice and on need. Nevertheless, charity is no replacement for good government. Maybe that is what many have found with issues around food banks and services having to be replicated by volunteers.

The unincorporated organisations and charities challenge policy makers and Governments in general, campaigning on issues on conscience and locality. I think of the Women’s Aid organisations in my constituency, which—with the new local authority administration—are addressing specific targeted issues such as domestic abuse and violence, and access to services. They are also raising the matter of three-year funding strategies, rather than constantly having to come back to the local authority or Government Department year in, year out for the same type of funding scheme.

These organisations deliver public services in ways that are too numerous to mention, including by supporting people through drug addiction. This includes the Dumbarton Area Council on Alcohol in my constituency. Organisations such as Tullochan and Y Sort-It in West Dunbartonshire enhance the lives of young people through group activity and individual support. Importantly, the unincorporated organisations across all our constituencies run groups of all shapes and sizes, such as Clydebank’s Morison Memorial lunch club, which offers friendship and wholesome food every Thursday; I can testify—I am sure that Scottish Members will recognise this—that it has the best and finest tablet in Scotland.

Charities and voluntary organisations connect and enhance our communities socially and economically. In Scotland, the investment from the Scottish Government has again increased to £24.9 million, with additional resources and support from a range of other funding bodies and groups, such as local authorities and NHS boards. Indeed, voluntary organisations are seen as an essential part of shaping public service through community planning in each of the 32 councils of Scotland.

From a Scotland-wide perspective, the voluntary sector covers every facet of Scottish society, and I am grateful to the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations for the following figures. There are over 45,000 voluntary organisations—on top of the charitable sector—in Scotland, employing more than 106,000 paid staff. That is 3.5% of Scotland’s workforce. The workforce is dominated by women, who make up 71% of it; this is significantly higher than in the public and private sectors. The sector also employs more people with disabilities than the public and private sectors. Over 1.3 million people in Scotland volunteer, and over 30% of women, people from rural communities and those aged 16 to 24 volunteer. There are over 250,000 charity trustees, many of whom will never actually see themselves as volunteers; and that is a clear point about many trustees and those involved in the governance process.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

indicated assent.

[Mims Davies]

indicated assent.

--- Later in debate ---

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) and the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Jack Brereton). You have presented us with a challenge, Mr Deputy Speaker—to say everything that we want to say about connecting communities by supporting charities and volunteers, and to do it within five minutes—but I will have a go.

The House has been discussing charities for a very long time. The Charitable Uses Act was presented here in 1601. I venture to say that charities seem to be rather more popular than politicians. A recent survey by the Charities Aid Foundation found that 80% of adults in the United Kingdom think that charities play an essential role. Can we imagine a positive rating of 80% for any politician?

Another Member paid tribute to the work of the all-party parliamentary group on charities and volunteering. Let me now pay tribute to my fellow officers in the group: my noble Friend Baroness Pitkeathley, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Martin Docherty-Hughes) and Lord Shinkwin. I also pay tribute to our secretariat, the National Council for Voluntary Organisations, and—most important of the lot—the large number of affiliated members of charities and community groups.

We all have amazing community groups in our constituencies. We can always argue here, as we do, about what is the role of the state and what is the role of voluntary groups, but that is not the debate that I want to have today. I want, for instance, to pay tribute to the amazing work of WINGS Wrexham, which works against period poverty in the borough of Wrexham. It deals with the lack of access to female sanitary products by providing collection points and fulfils a vital advocacy role.

I have five main points to make in slightly under three minutes. First, the Minister mentioned sustainable finance. That is important, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield said earlier, volunteering does not come free and should not be done on the cheap. I urge the Minister and, indeed, all decision-makers to look back on some of the good work that resulted from the compact between the Government and voluntary sector. Let us aspire to longer-term funding, strategic planning, and—yes—full cost recovery.

Secondly, we know that volunteers, charities and community groups have a huge advocacy role. It was said in the Government’s civil society strategy that simply being in receipt of taxpayers’ money should not inhibit charities from making their voices heard on matters of policy and practice, and I welcome those words, but I want to see that always happening in practice. Charities have been, small p, political and have undertaken advocacy since the Royal British Legion campaigned on the rights of soldiers returning home after the first world war. I urge the Government to look again at the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Act 2014 and to take on board some of the recommendations of Lord Hodgson on that.

Thirdly, I believe that we need to rethink philanthropy. The Minister mentioned the development of gift aid, which is indeed very positive, and the gift aid small donations scheme, but we should also take account of the new philanthropy whereby people make donations that are backed up by supermarkets and other stores. There is no Treasury support on top of that, but consideration should be given to providing such support as part of the small donations scheme. That could work in much the same way as the donations of furniture to the British Heart Foundation.

Fourthly, the Minister mentioned the revival of deprived areas by means of dormant cash. I hope that she takes on board many of the ideas that have been advanced by voluntary organisations. The National Council for Voluntary Organisations has referred to the need for a revolution in community ownership and participation.

Finally, let me make a point about trustees. The Minister mentioned that she was a trustee. I hope that she will support the ten-minute rule Bill that I will present on 6 March. According to the Charity Commission, at least 100,000 new trustees are appointed every year. I think that it is time to give them a status in law similar to that of school governors, local councillors, magistrates and those in other categories when it comes to time off for their duties—unpaid time off. I should be grateful if the Minister looked into that because it is time that we changed the law.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Thursday 6th December 2018 Commons Chamber

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to follow hon. Members in this debate, and like many of my constituents I am extremely worried about what has developed. We are all practically certain that the Prime Minister will not get her deal through next week unless something quite extraordinary happens, and I am aware that when I vote against that deal, I will vote against it with some who are doing so for very different reasons. I have no truck with the ghosts of Brexit Secretaries and Foreign Secretaries past who act as commentators and who, despite the sunny uplands of which they speak, refuse to accept that where we are now has anything to do with them. As I vote, I will have no sympathies for them whatsoever.

Today’s debate is on the economy, and I believe that our economy and jobs must come first. I have had many emails, letters and phone calls from constituents, and they are worried. I, too, am worried, because according to the Government’s economic forecasts, the UK economy will suffer under all forms of Brexit. When a body as prestigious as the National Institute of Economic and Social Research tells us that the Prime Minister’s deal, versus staying in the EU, would leave UK domestic product falling by £100 billion annually, that is a concern.

To those who think that such projections are no more accurate than reading tea leaves, let us go on to some real figures. The economy is down from being the fastest growing in the G7 in 2015 to among the slowest now, with only Italy slower. When Julian Jessop, the pro-Brexit chief economist of the Institute of Economic Affairs, admits that the UK economy has probably grown more slowly due to additional inflation prompted by sterling’s fall, that concerns me, too. It also worries me when the TUC rightly makes the point that, with the PM’s deal, even during the transition period, workers would see a reduction in their rights: the UK Government have suggested that new rights with an implementation period after the transition would not be brought forward in UK law.

My constituents and I are concerned. As Carwyn Jones, Wales’s First Minister, has rightly noted, Wales receives £600 million a year from the EU and we export 60% of our goods to the EU. I am very concerned and cannot support a deal that would make my constituency of Clwyd South in north Wales, Wales and the UK poorer. In the words of the former Universities Minister who resigned from the Government on this issue,

“the brutal negotiations we will go through will make us poorer and less secure”.

I believe that the Chancellor is right about one thing: all this has left us a very divided nation. In my postbag, I hear from people who voted leave and who voted remain in 2016. To be honest, I cannot represent all of them adequately. So I will say this. There are 55,000-plus people of voting age in my constituency. On Tuesday, I will have the right to take part in a meaningful vote. I would like each of my 55,000-plus voters to have the same right in a people’s vote. I want that not just for the constituents of Clwyd South, but for every single voter across Wales and the UK. Let them all have a meaningful vote now that we have a meaningful proposition. Let the people’s voice be heard. If we cannot get a general election, that must be our course of action.

Summer Adjournment

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 24th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Ruth Smeeth) and all other contributors to the debate.

The main issue I would like to raise is the massive issue of support for older people. I very much hope that, as the years progress, we begin to talk about this issue more in the House. I would like to share some examples from our Welsh Labour Government and local examples from my constituency.

The sharp-eyed will remember that, in Wales, older people’s care is devolved to the National Assembly for Wales, but I raise this subject here today not just because of its relevance in terms of funding settlements, but because I believe that, when it comes to social and economic issues, the nations and regions of the United Kingdom should be keen to learn from one another. I am very much of the view that learning and sharing also means being prepared to tackle head-on the difficult questions that we all face.

Jonathan Baxter and Stephen Boyce reminded us in their research document for the National Assembly for Wales entitled “The ageing population in Wales” that, in 2008, the over-65s made up 18% of Wales’s population and, by 2033, that is expected to rise to almost 26%. That could be euphemistically referred to as a bit of a challenge, but before we descend into doom and gloom, I would like us to consider a little Welsh proverb that translates as, “The old know, and the young think they know.” There is a little caveat in all this. That proverb was not concocted to describe policy making and initiatives, but it makes an important point. Our policies and thinking as they relate to older people need to reflect what older people think and be designed in an appropriate way.

Let me give one example. At the end of May, Welsh Government Housing and Regeneration Minister Rebecca Evans announced nearly £6 million of Welsh Government funding to support the work of Care and Repair agencies with vulnerable older people. Across Wales, there are 13 such agencies, which together enable many older and disabled people to live as independently as possible in their own homes, providing support and repairing work, helping more than 22,000 people through safety and falls prevention work and carrying out some 17,000 small adaptations.

A fine project supporting older people’s care in much of my constituency and in parts of the town of Wrexham is the community agents project, which helps and supports people who are over 50. As someone who became 50 this year, I have a particular fondness for this project. I pay tribute to everyone at county borough council level who has supported the programme and to the town and community councils; without their funding in those areas, the programme simply would not have been possible. I also pay tribute to our local voluntary sector organisations and to the community agents themselves.

Another example of impeccable care for older people that I am delighted to talk about is the Penley Rainbow Centre. That is situated in a rural part of my constituency, very close to the English border. I have had the privilege of visiting it on many occasions and I am deeply glad to support its work. Operating since 1994, the centre is a registered charity that aims to improve the health and wellbeing of our local community. Services include day opportunities, day care, befriending, peer support groups, volunteering and a range of learning and exercise classes, as well as a new community wellbeing service that provides outreach support to the local community.

People at the centre work with many different groups of people five days a week—including those with dementia, frailty, learning difficulties or physical disability—and they also support families and carers. There are not just outstanding day opportunities. Other services include community wellbeing, peer support, lunch and learns, exercise classes, an excellent community garden—with an active gardening group—as well as a choir, art and craft classes, and beauty treatments. Active local fundraising has led to the provision of a new minibus, which means that the centre will serve even more people. “Caring”, “welcoming”, “a lifeline”, “fantastic meals and company” and

“A place that makes me feel much happier”—

these quotes prove that the Penley Rainbow Centre is not just a credit to the area I am privileged to represent in Parliament, but a project worthy of replication in communities across Wales and the UK, and indeed more widely across the world.

I believe the three projects about which I have spoken today are as fine initiatives in older people’s care as any that can be found anywhere in our land. As the Member of Parliament for Clwyd South, I am delighted to highlight them and to raise in this Parliament and nationwide the need for more serious discussion of older people’s care.

Draft Welsh Ministers (Transfer Of Functions) Order 2018

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 8th May 2018 General Committees

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

It is a great honour to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher, on this important matter. The draft order continues the long process—too long a process, some would say—of devolving powers from London to Cardiff over the past 21 years. I am sure that the Minister will be delighted to hear that we will not oppose these measures, which will ensure greater devolution to Wales.

Labour is the party of devolution. I was proud to play my full part in the devolution referendum in 1997 as the north Wales campaign co-ordinator. I was proud to vote for the Government of Wales Act 1998 and campaign for additional powers in the successful referendum in 2011. These powers have been a long time coming and it is a privilege to be on this Committee today when these powers will be tidied up and finally devolved.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

Many members of the Committee will be intrigued to see measures such as the Conservation of Seals Act 1970 included. We now know that the seals of Wales will be fully devolved.

[Chris Ruane]

Labour seals.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Indeed. One of the things that strikes me about the draft order is the number of references to agriculture. Does my hon. Friend agree that, as we come to the post-Brexit era, it makes more and more sense for measures relating to agriculture to be decided by our devolved Government in Wales?

[Chris Ruane]

Absolutely. Agriculture in Wales pre and post Brexit is a top priority. Some 58% of farmers in Wales voted to leave the EU because of the promises that the funds they received on a regular basis from Brussels to the farm gate would be secure. Now they find that will not be the case.

The order represents an important change in the devolution settlement. Although the majority of the functions in it are relatively minor, their transfer to Welsh Ministers represents a significant step forward in matching the legislative competence of the Assembly with the Executive competence of Ministers. What the order does not do, as Labour argued consistently through the passage of the 2017 Act, is create the clarity that the opportunity of a new Wales Act could have provided. The whole period following the Silk Commission’s conclusions has been a missed opportunity by the Conservatives to put Wales on a stable and sustainable footing, consolidate all existing legislation and provide proper alignment.

On this journey, we had the debacle of the St David’s Day process, where the Tories could not get anyone to agree with them, yet persisted in calling it an agreement prior to the initial draft Wales Bill being published in 2016. The 2016 draft Bill was so universally loathed by politicians, academics and lawyers alike that significant changes had to be made before the Bill was introduced in Parliament the following year. We welcome those changes.

The Welsh Labour Government reluctantly recommended a legislative consent motion to the Assembly in 2017—not because the Wales Bill was perfect, but because it represented another step along the road towards the clarity that Wales deserves. That is where this TFO—transfer of functions order—comes in. As I said, it goes some way towards aligning the legislative competence of the National Assembly with the Executive competence of Welsh Ministers.

Of the 47 articles in the transfer order, there are three areas of significance: teachers’ pay and conditions, civil contingencies and elections. On teachers’ pay and conditions, we note the later date of 30 September 2018 for those coming into force. This, I understand, was at the Welsh Government’s request and is to ensure the smoothest possible transition for teachers in Wales when the new school year starts. I thank the Government for listening and for making the amendments proposed by Welsh Ministers.

The transfer of functions to Welsh Ministers in relation to civil contingencies should provide clarity for all those who deal day to day with emergency planning. We believe that will make for a better service response for the public and it is to be welcomed. I recently met the chief fire officer for north Wales, Simon Smith, to discuss fire issues and emergency planning. I pay tribute to all those who protect us in emergency planning and civil contingencies, including the police, fire services, ambulance services, local authorities, the coastguard and the NHS. I am sure they will be pleased with the joined-up approach that we are discussing today.

With respect to elections, we note that the functions will be transferred on a different basis from the other provisions in the TFO. Instead of listing the specific provisions to be transferred, the TFO provides that all functions in certain election-related enactments will be transferred, but only in so far as those functions fall within the legislative competence of the National Assembly. That appears to introduce some uncertainty: it is not exactly clear which functions have been transferred, making the TFO slightly difficult to navigate. We understand that the Welsh Government offered an alternative draft to the UK Government that would have addressed that point. Perhaps the Minister can explain to the Committee why it was thought necessary to proceed on the basis of what we have before us. Why did they not accept the Welsh Government’s proposals?

The final issue is Milford Haven port. The UK Government have compounded their determination to keep control of the port. Will the Minister confirm that they have no plans to privatise the port and will work with the Welsh Government to ensure its continued significant contribution to the economy of west Wales at this significant time, with Brexit looming large over us all?

The transfer of functions is generally to be welcomed. We will not divide the Committee, but I would appreciate if the Minister could shed some light on those issues.

Community Bank Closures

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Thursday 8th February 2018 Commons Chamber

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous), my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (James Frith) and all other contributors to the debate, but of course I particularly thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Ruth Smeeth). I was intrigued by her description of her first experience of banking and I remembered my wonderful chequebook with a nice colourful kingfisher on it. I thank the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Mr Wragg), too, who secured this debate along with my hon. Friend.

I have to say that I am completely fed up, as are my constituents and many businesses in my constituency. We are fed up because we are a constituency of 240 square miles and we have a grand total of one bank branch left. I do not know what happened to all the rhetoric of the last bank in the community. Whatever happened, it did not work in areas such as mine and it is not working across swathes of the country.

I welcomed the banking protocol. In fact, I was part of a cross-party group of Members that went to see Professor Griggs about the protocol. I welcomed it and many of the suggestions in it. For example, I welcomed the fact that it highlighted the need for the collection of cash from businesses and the like and the co-ordination of that. I welcomed many of the things in that voluntary code, but it strikes me that not enough has been done subsequently. It certainly has not halted branch closures.

In 2016, when the last two branches were to close, at Chirk and Ruabon, a staff member and I took it upon ourselves to visit 126 businesses on the high streets of Chirk, Ruabon, Rhosllanerchrugog, Johnstown, Cefn Mawr, Plas Madoc and Acrefair—apologies to any constituents I have missed out—to ask about the many issues they face. Earlier in the debate reference was made to post offices. Having worked with local businesses and post offices in my constituency, I welcome any improvements where they have been made. I also welcome the work that the Treasury has done on standardisation, because we are no longer in the daft position where some things work for some banks, and other things work for other banks. There are post office branches where that works absolutely magnificently, but in others it simply does not work. If someone comes into a post office to buy a packet of crisps, and then someone else buys a bar of chocolate, but the person working there has to deal with a banking transaction in the middle of that, that is not a sustainable solution.

If we are looking to develop post offices in that way, that might be one exciting option to consider around the country. I know for a fact that post offices are doing all sorts of things, for example, granting credit union members access to their cash. I welcome that when it works, but we have to look at what provision is put in place when bank branches close.

Earlier in the debate it was suggested that the notification period for bank branch closures should be longer. I think that there is a case for that, but in too many cases we know that, when a bank gives notice that it is going to close a branch, that is what it is going to do. We can petition to our hearts’ content, with 38 Degrees petitions, petitions in this House, Change.org petitions—we could even create our own website and have some more petitions—but in most cases it does not make one jot of difference.

[Michelle Donelan]

Does the hon. Lady agree that more time would allow people to hone their digital skills and that banks have a role to play in that to ensure that people are prepared for the closure? The branches might still close, but a longer notice period would give people time to prepare.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Yes, I would welcome that. I think that is a positive point.

We also have to consider what the banks have been telling us. My right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) spoke about some commercially sensitive information that she was not allowed to have. I, too, have asked for commercially sensitive information, such as how many people had accounts at the branch, and clearly the bank was unable to tell me. Better still, I asked how many people on a typical week went in with queries. I was told something earth-shattering: that queries might not really be queries. I asked what that meant. I was told that, if someone goes into a bank, stands at the counter and asks a question, that might not be a query. I made the point that, for the customer asking the question, it very much was a query. I was told that, if there was no formal transaction, it was not a query. It is a parallel universe.

As we move at this juncture, we need to know what on earth the banks are planning to do next. An hon. Member has made the point that first we were fobbed off by being told that one could go to the next village, and then to the next, and then to the next, and that it was all right because it is just a little walk down the road—rather like an old-fashioned countryside treasure hunt. Suddenly, one realises that one has to go quite a long way to get to the next post. That cannot be the way to deal with the problem.

What we do about cashpoints and ATMs is of utmost seriousness. There are currently some 70,000 in the country, the bulk of which are free to use. At the start of 2016, the then Chair of the Treasury Committee, Andrew Tyrie, said that cashpoint charging and closures were of great concern. His point was that, if the ATM companies were not going to deal with the problem, this House needed to look at it, because people in rural communities and those on low incomes would be affected the most. As far as I can see, one problem with cashpoints is that the 38 or so banks and the like that are part of the ATM network are having a little scrap with each other. As they knock metaphorical spots off each other, each deciding that they are all paying too much, it is the customer who loses out.

[Ruth Smeeth]

My hon. Friend may not be aware that the price of an average transaction has not increased for nine years. The service is not costing the banks any more money; they just do not want to pay for it any more.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Where charges exist, the average cost of a single transaction is £1.70, and it is worrying that we are not looking more at free access to cash, which is a basic right. We do not say that about drinking water or many other things. It is nonsense that we are prepared to let banks charge money for us to visit a cashpoint, and there is no doubt that charging hits the poorest communities hardest.

I want to give credit to some examples in my constituency of where people are fighting against the system. I do not know whether Members have ever visited Corwen, which is a fantastic town.

[Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)]

indicated assent.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Excellent. I do not know whether Members have been on the steam train, but Corwen is a wonderful place for tourism and has fantastic local businesses. The town really wants to consider and develop community banking, and people are adapting. We are not expecting to return to a previous era—we do not expect Captain Mainwaring and Sergeant Wilson to come back—but we need a type of banking that works for us and for communities such as Corwen and many others across the country. The Government need to step in if the banks are going to close branches or if the ATM companies are going to start charging. We need the Treasury to be tough on them and we need to stand up to them. At the end of the day, if the world’s local bank and other local banks mean anything by community banking, they have to mean it nationwide.

Autumn Budget as it Relates to Wales

Susan Elan Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 7th February 2018 General Committees

[The Chair]

Before I call Susan Elan Jones, who was speaking before the break, I remind hon. Members who use the headphones that, when they take them off their heads, they should turn the volume down to avoid feedback on the sound system.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to speak when you are in the Chair, Mr Hanson.

Mae’n bleser mawr cael siarad gyda chi yn y Gadair, Mr Hanson.

Dros Gymru a Phrydain gyfan, mae gennym rai o’r gweision cyhoeddus gorau yn y byd, gan gynnwys y bobl sy’n dysgu yn ein hysgolion; y bobl sy’n gweithio yn ein hysbytai; ein diffoddwyr tân a’n heddlu; a’n lluoedd arfog. Mae ein gweision cyhoeddus yn gweithio tu hwnt i’r disgwyl i’n gwasanaethu ni bob dydd a nos. Yr ydym yn aml yn trafod ystadegau yn y lle hwn—mae hynny’n ddigon teg ac yn hanfodol—ond rwyf o’r farn hefyd bod angen inni gyflwyno prawf moesegol i’r gap cyflog ar gyfer gweithwyr sector cyhoeddus.

Yn ddiweddar, roedd nifer fawr o Aelodau Seneddol yn cymryd rhan mewn dadl am dâl ein lluoedd arfog. Gwnaed y pwynt nad oedd cynnydd yn y cyflog yn cyfateb i gost gynyddol tai ar gyfer personél y gwasanaethau arfog. Mynegodd llawer ohonom—yn drawsbleidiol—ein pryder ynglŷn â hyn. Dyna un enghraifft sy’n dangos fy mhryderon am ganlyniad rhewi cyflogau yn y sector cyhoeddus.

Mae Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Wrecsam—nid cyngor Llafur, ond un sy’n cael ei redeg gan glymblaid o gynghorwyr Ceidwadol ac Annibynnol—yn dweud ar ei wefan ei fod wedi arbed tua £18 miliwn dros y tair blynedd diwethaf, ac rwy’n credu bydd yn rhaid dod o hyd i £13 miliwn arall dros y ddwy flynedd nesaf. Mae’r cyngor yn nodi ar ei wefan:

“Mae gennym lai o arian i’w wario bob blwyddyn”.

Felly cytunaf ag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Gyllid, Mark Drakeford, a ddywedodd y bydd cyllideb lywodraethol Cymru yn parhau i fod 5% yn is mewn termau real yn 2019-20 nag yn 2010-11. Eto, wrth inni glywed am y pryderon mawr hyn, rydym yn rhoi £3 biliwn heibio i dalu am fethiant y Llywodraeth yn y trafodaethau Brexit. Wrth gwrs, ’dwi ddim yn sôn am y £39 miliwn am y “fargen”—mae’n ddrwg gen i ddefnyddio’r fath air yn y cyd-destun hwn. Doedd dim sôn am y fath beth ar fws enwog yr ymgyrch i adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd.

Beth am ddyled y Deyrnas Unedig? Yn ôl ffigyrau o’r Swyddfa Ystadegau Gwladol, mae dyled a oedd yn £358.6 biliwn ym mis Mai 1998 erbyn hyn yn £1,726.9 biliwn —swm syfrdanol. Dywedodd Dirprwy Lywodraethwr Banc Lloegr, Ben Broadbent:

“Mae twf cynhyrchiant wedi arafu ym mhob economi uwch, ond mae wedi bod yn fwy difrifol yn y wlad hon nag mewn gwledydd eraill.”

Dywedodd The Daily Telegraph—soniais am y Guardian bore yma, felly rwyf yn cyfeirio at y Telegraph prynhawn yma—fod

“twf cynhyrchiant wedi cwympo”.

Soniodd y newyddiadurwr Tim Wallace yn y Telegraph am y 1860au, sef y degawd diwethaf cyn yr un yma i brofi twf incwm gwironeddol negyddol. Dylai’r sefyllfa bresennol fod o gonsyrn mawr i bob un ohonom.

Er hynny, yn y bôn rwy’n credu mai pobl optimistaidd ydym ni yng ngogeldd Cymru, ac rydw i am orffen ar nodyn optimistaidd. Rwy’n croesawu unrhyw gyhoeddiad am fargen twf gogledd Cymru. Fel dywedais i, byddaf yn ei groesawu’n fwy pan fydd o’n dŵad, ond rydw i yn croesawu’r cyhoeddiad. Mae angen i ni wella’r seilwaith a gweithio’n drawsffiniol i wneud yr A5 a’r A483 yn well ac yn fwy diogel, ac mae angen buddsoddiad i sicrhau mynediad gwell i’n gorsafoedd rheilffyrdd, yn enwedig gorsaf Rhiwabon, yr orsaf ar gyfer traphont ddŵr Pontcysyllte, sy’n gwasanaethu poblogaeth fawr iawn, yn fy etholaeth it.

Mae’n her i bob un ohonom wneud y cytundeb twf yn reality, ac mae’n hollbwysig i ogled Cymru, i bobl Cymru gyfan ac i’n cymdogion ar draws y ffin ein bod ni’n sicrhau bod y cytundeb twf yn gweithio ar gyfer ein cymunedau.

(Translation) We have some of the best public servants in the world, including the people teaching in our schools and working in our hospitals, our firefighters, police officers, armed forces and others. They go above and beyond to serve us, day and night.

We often use statistics while speaking in this place, and that is understandable and, indeed, essential, but we also need to apply an ethical test to a pay cap for public sector workers. Recently, many MPs took part in a debate on pay in the armed forces. The point was made that the wage increase did not correspond with the rising cost of housing for service personnel, and many of us, on a cross-party basis, expressed concerns about that. That is one example of my concerns about what the pay freeze in the public sector can mean.

Wrexham County Borough Council, which is run not by Labour but by a coalition of Conservative and Independent councillors, talks on its website about how it has saved about £18 million during the past three years. I believe that it will have to find another £13 million over the next two years. The council says on its website that it has less money to spend annually. I therefore agreed with Mark Drakeford, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance in Wales, who drew attention to the fact that the Welsh Government’s budget will still be 5% lower in real terms in 2019-20 than it was in 2010-11.

When we hear of these concerns, we acknowledge that we are now putting an additional £3 billion aside in case of failure in the Brexit discussions. Of course, I am not talking about the £39 billion that will be needed in the deal—I am not too happy to be using the word “deal” or “bargain” in this context. There was no warning of that on the leave campaign’s famous bus,

What about the United Kingdom’s debt? According to figures from the Office for National Statistics, the debt that was £358.6 billion in May 1998 is now £1,726.9 billion —a shocking figure.

The Deputy Governor of the Bank of England, Ben Broadbent, said that productivity growth has slowed across all the wealthy nations of the world, but it has been more severe in this country than in others. I mentioned The Guardian this morning, so this afternoon I will mention The Daily Telegraph. It said that productivity growth had decreased.

Tim Wallace, the journalist, talked about the 1860s in The Daily Telegraph, and said that that was the last decade until now that experienced real negative growth. The current situation should be a cause of great concern to all of us.

Essentially, however, I think that we in north Wales are an optimistic people and I will close my speech on an optimistic note. I welcome any announcement on the north Wales growth deal. As I say, I will be more welcoming when it comes, but I welcome the announcements that have been made. We need to improve infrastructure and we need cross-border working to make the A5 and the A483 safer and better, and we need investment to ensure better access to our train stations—particularly Ruabon station, the station for the Pontcysyllte aqueduct, which is very important for my constituency.

The challenge for all of us is to make the promise of the growth deal a reality. It is essential for north Wales—in fact, for the people of all of Wales, and our neighbours on the other side of the border—that we ensure that the growth deal works for our communities.