Care Bill [Lords]

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Tuesday 11th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

It is very good of the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) to drop in on us. I know he was here yesterday and we must now hear from the Chair of the Health Committee.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Mr Speaker, I take your rap across the knuckles in the spirit in which it was intended. I apologise to the House for being late today, due to a diary conflict. I hope I can claim that I do not arrive, speak and then disappear very often. My practice is to be here for a debate and to contribute and listen to it, and I apologise to the House for not matching that standard in this debate.

I am, however, grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate, because a discussion about the way in which the health service handles data and introduces a culture that allows a freer exchange of data around the health and care system is fundamental to the delivery of more joined-up services—ultimately between the NHS and the social care sector—which is an objective that is espoused widely, and regularly repeated, in this House.

The Select Committee had a session at which NHS England gave evidence about the position it got to with care.data and the delay that was announced two or three weeks ago. Although there is a widespread view within the Select Committee that it is important to get better at handling data in order to allow the delivery of improved services, we also had a sense that NHS England, in its handling of the care.data programme, had not respected sufficiently the sensitivities both of individual GPs, as the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) was saying, and—more importantly, ultimately—of individual patients about the safeguards that apply to their data and the uses to which those data can be put.

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is important that the six months of additional breathing space NHS England has given itself is used to address those concerns, both within the service and among patient groups, about security of data and the safeguards in respect of which data are used as a result of a more open—in the correct sense of that word—use of data around the system.

[Barbara Keeley]

As the right hon. Gentleman was not here at the time, he will not know that I moved a manuscript amendment on better parliamentary oversight of the Health and Social Care Information Centre. It seemed to me—I wonder if he noticed this, too, in our Committee inquiry—that there were a great many individuals making decisions on key issues. Questions were put to the HSCIC about the pseudonymisation of data at source, yet the answer we got back was, “Well, I’ve looked at that, and I don’t support it.” The comments were all a bit “I”, but I would like a bit more of the “We” in oversight, and not so much of the “I”.

[Mr Dorrell]

I was told a long time ago that it is important in certain circumstances in life to be careful with pronouns. It is fair to say that in the evidence we heard last week not all the witnesses were as careful as they could have been with their pronouns. However, I do not want to follow the hon. Lady too far down that road. Instead, I want to make a couple of broader points that I think are important if we are to deliver the objective of the efficient use of data within the health and care system in a way that respects the sensitivities of patients and the people who work in the system.

In the policy arena, when we talk about data and the safeguards around data, there is quite properly an instinct to be concerned about the power of information technology to make information available on a scale that was undreamt of a generation ago and to recognise that that requires proper safeguards. The default question is: what are the safeguards? That is a perfectly proper question, which has to be answered, but it is important that we do not lose sight of the benefits that can come from proper and efficient use of data.

I want to dwell on one illustration of that in the context of the health and care system. Traditionally we have been moderately good, in particular in the hospital service, at measuring episodes of care. What we have been almost completely blind about are the patterns that link one episode of care to another along an individual patient’s life journey. Care.data, as I understand it, is designed to address that weakness in a properly anonymised way, recognising that if we connect the patterns, one episode of care is often linked to another, and another and another, in that patient’s life journey. If we are to build a health and care system that is more joined-up, to use one bit of jargon, or, to use another cliché that is often repeated, treats patients or people not conditions, we need to equip ourselves with an information system that traps, and allows us to see, the experience of those people around whom we are trying to build the system.

The current information systems available to the health and care system simply leave that gap wide open. They do not connect up the individual episodes of care experienced by individual patients. They measure the numbers of people who go in for diagnostic services or the numbers of people who are treated for a particular condition or the number of attendances of care workers at home. They measure all those things, but they do not connect the individual patient-person experience through the line. Addressing that weakness is fundamental to what we are trying to do, and we must not lose sight of that in the concern we properly have about the safeguards that are required if care.data is to proceed with the public and professional support it needs.

[Paul Burstow]

The right hon. Gentleman is making an important point about why the programme has to succeed. Given that about 70% of what the NHS spends goes on the management of multi-morbidity—on people suffering from long-term conditions, often physical and mental—the ability to look at those data across the journeys people make through our care system is an essential part of good commissioning for population health.

[Mr Dorrell]

The right hon. Gentleman is 100% right. That is precisely what the care.data programme is designed to address.

[Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend is rightly concentrating on the benefits of the programme. Sharing large datasets clearly has big research and integration benefits, but we now have a huge confidence problem with the programme. It will be beneficial only if it gets widespread buy-in from patients. What does he believe is the answer if we are to regain the public’s confidence?

[Mr Dorrell]

First, we must concentrate the rationale for the programme on to patients. Looking back at how NHS England has got itself into this position over the past few weeks and months, I have lost count of the number of times I have been told how important the programme is for research. I absolutely agree that it is important for research, but the health and care system does not exist to support research; it exists to treat and care for patients. The logic of allowing commissioners to develop joined-up services that respond to individual people’s needs—and the pattern of need based on multi-morbidity to which the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) has referred—must be placed centre stage in the justification for the improved handling of data in the health and care system.

I go back to the point that this must be about treating people, not conditions. We cannot achieve that if we do not have the information to allow us to connect up the experience of the patient between one part of the system and another. In regard to the logic behind NHS England’s plans, yes there is a research argument, but—with apologies to the research scientists—it is a secondary argument. The primary argument is that we must improve the services delivered to patients and service users.

[Barbara Keeley]

The hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood) has just mentioned the need to reassure patients; that is a big concern at the moment. I have here the transcript of the information I was given in the Health Committee, in which Max Jones of the HSCIC said of the care.data programme that the GP extraction services

“took great care to make sure that we only extract the coded information in those records and not the free text notes”.

However, the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) said earlier that there had been discussions in HSCIC meetings about extracting free text data. Is the right hon. Gentleman as alarmed as I was to hear that? Does he agree that, in the light of the need for reassurance, we do not need such revelations, news and other bits and pieces coming at us from every direction every day to make the whole fiasco worse?

[Mr Dorrell]

I am not going to comment on whether the free text data should or should not be part of the system, or on whether the safeguards are adequate. However, I agree with the hon. Lady absolutely that the one sure way of undermining public confidence in safeguards is to change those safeguards every five minutes according to whichever witness we are listening to.

[Dr Wollaston]

My right hon. Friend made the point that the programme is for the benefit of patients. Does he agree that it would reassure people if we made it crystal clear that it was about improving care and not about systems?

[Mr Dorrell]

My hon. Friend is right, as she always is on these issues. This is about improving the care that is delivered to patients.

Getting away from the debate about data, I want to make my final point. We are repeatedly told that the system is too fragmented and has not taken advantage of the opportunities created by the proper gathering and manipulation of data—as other sectors of the economy have done—in order to reshape services around the needs of consumers. That is the opportunity that the proper handling of data provides, and it is hugely in the interests of patients that we ensure that we take that opportunity. We must take it, but we must do so with proper safeguards.

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[Dr Poulter]

rose—

[Mr Dorrell]

rose—

[Andy Burnham]

I give way to the Chairman of the Health Committee.

[Mr Dorrell]

I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reflect on what he has just said. Does he really believe that we can make the changes that are necessary, whether in an individual health institution or in a whole health economy, by looking purely at the finances, without looking at the effect that changing the financial structure needs to have on the structure of care delivery, particularly through the delivery of more integrated care, which he and I so often talk about?

[Andy Burnham]

This is where the right hon. Gentleman and I differ. I believe that we need to begin by asking whether there is a clinical case for change and build from there. Clause 119 seeks to turn things around. It starts with the financial case for change and the clinical issues come second. The previous Government established a very clear policy, advised by Sir Ian Carruthers, that the clinical case must be front and centre, and that we must build from there. Clause 119 completely subverts that.

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[Heidi Alexander]

I am sorry to be down in the detail of the new clause, but I think that it is very important, not least because many of us have received hundreds of e-mails about this. We need clarity on which commissioners are being given an effective power of veto by the new clause. Is it just the primary commissioner of services at a hospital, or does it go wider than that? To take the Lewisham example, it is not clear whether the power of veto would be given only to Lewisham CCG or also to the commissioners of services at Lewisham hospital, such as Greenwich or Bexley CCGs.

It is also not clear from new clause 16 whether there is a definite guarantee that full consultation would kick in if commissioners agreed to the recommendations of the TSA, because with reference to commissioners it includes the words

“if they are so minded”.

It is not clear what would happen if they were not so minded. Where is the redress for the public in that?

Another concern about new clause 16 is that if commissioners of services at a trust outside the failing trust disagree with the TSA’s proposals, potentially millions could have been spent bringing in the administrator and the management consultants and working up a whole series of proposals, but it could then be brought to a halt by a group of commissioners. I cannot help but question whether it would not be better either to apply the TSA regime to one individual trust or to go through a proper reconfiguration process, with all the safeguards that would include.

I am also intrigued as to why the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam tabled new clause 16 at this time. It is quite detailed, and given that he was a member of the Public Bill Committee, it might have been wise to introduce it in Committee and thrash out the detail there. I would like to add that he has always struck me as a man of principle. He has a deep understanding of how the NHS works and, I believe, a deep commitment to tackling the care crisis we face. However, tabling the new clause as some kind of alternative to voting against clause 119 seems to me to be tinkering at the edges. What we really need to do is vote to remove that clause from the Bill, because it poses a significant danger to hospitals across the country.

I am conscious that I have spoken for a long time, so I will say just a few words in conclusion. We know that the Conservatives stated in their manifesto that they would stop the forced closure of A and E departments and maternity wards. We know that in the coalition agreement both the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives talked about stopping the centrally dictated closure of A and E departments and maternity wards. The truth is that neither the Lib Dems nor the Conservatives are stopping these closures; instead, they are legislating for them. They are paving the way for a wholesale programme of hospital closures and downgrades. We might stop them if we vote for new clause 16, but for me “might” is not good enough. In my view, amendment 30, which would delete clause 119, is our best hope for putting the Lewisham debacle behind us and providing the public with a fair and transparent means of making decisions about the public service that matters most to people—the NHS.

[Mr Dorrell]

I want briefly to explain why I intend to support clause 119 in the Lobby this evening and to say that I have some sympathy with the points that my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) made about new clause 16. I hope that the Minister will address his specific points about the importance of equivalence between the commissioners of unaffected hospitals and the commissioners of key services. This is not about a veto, I suggest to the hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander); it is about the right of commissioners out of area to safeguard essential services in a parallel way to commissioners in the core area of the affected trust that is subject to the trust special administrator regime.

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[Grahame M. Morris]

I hold the Chairman of the Select Committee in high regard for his expertise. Let me point out, though, that he analyses this on the basis of two cases in five years, but in fact the situation has changed rather dramatically. The information presented to our Committee is that about a third of NHS trusts are predicting deficits, and, as we heard earlier, 32 are in severe financial difficulty. Those may not be the exceptional circumstances that the Minister would have us believe, and that should be a cause for concern for Members on both sides of the House.

[Mr Dorrell]

Saying that a trust is in deficit is not the same as saying that it is heading into administration. It lies within the power of the commissioners and the trust management regime to avoid administration, which everyone in the House agrees is the preferred outcome. Indeed, it is striking that each of the Members from Lewisham and from Staffordshire identified the difficulties that the TSA regime creates and the difficult circumstances that arise when a TSA is appointed. Some Labour Members have suggested that this is a back-door means of driving change without consultation by appointing TSAs to trusts all around the country. If I thought that that was anywhere near to being anybody’s intention, I would oppose clause 119. However, the important point about clause 119 is that if it were the Government’s intention, which I do not remotely believe that it is, they could pursue that policy whichever way the Division goes.

The point about clause 119 is that it raises an extremely narrow question: should the TSA take into consideration only the institution that has been demonstrated historically to be unsustainable, or should the TSA look outside that immediate health economy for solutions that will better serve the needs of patients in that area? It seems to me that we need only pose the question in that precise and, I believe, accurate way for it to be seen to be a rhetorical question.

[Richard Drax]

Rather than looking at administrators and what can be done in the event of a disaster, let us look at Dorset county hospital as a classic case of what to do. It was in trouble and has been turned around, and local clinicians and managers are now talking to the GPs in Weymouth. They are now thinking—don’t laugh—of integrating their services. Well, whoopee doopee, this is huge common sense: not an administrator in sight and, more to the point, not a politician in sight either.

[Mr Dorrell]

I do not always agree with every word my hon. Friend says, but I agree with everything he said in that intervention, so I am delighted that I gave way to him. His argument is that commissioners and the trust management should get ahead of the trust administrator. Nobody should sit around waiting for an administrator to be appointed; the objective should be to avoid trust administration along precisely the lines identified by my hon. Friend.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I want to make a few points in support of amendment 30, which would delete clause 119 on the basis that the TSA was never designed to deal with reconfigurations across an entire region. Despite the assurances given by the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) and Government Front Benchers, the potential remains for this mechanism to be used as a back-door route to making changes and closures at hospitals.

I also declare my support for new clause 16. However, although it would ameliorate the worst parts of clause 119 by ensuring that local commissioners in non-failing areas had a veto over any decisions affecting their trust, it is not, as colleagues have said, a perfect solution.

Clause 19—or, as 38 Degrees and other campaigning groups refer to it, the hospital closure clause—should not stand part of the Bill. I had the honour to serve on the Bill Committee for what is now the Health and Social Care Act 2012 and I attended 39 out of 40 sittings. I missed one because I attended a Health Committee sitting at which the then Health Secretary was giving evidence about NHS England, which was previously called the NHS Commissioning Board, and I did not want to miss that.

I sat through that Bill Committee and listened to the Government’s reasons for their reorganisation. We were told that it would deliver a decentralised service and put power in the hands of clinicians. To be frank, clause 119 makes a mockery of that claim. Far from delivering a decentralised service that puts power in the hands of clinicians, the Secretary of State seems to be seeking to take power away from GPs and local communities in order to further reconfigure the NHS for purely financial reasons.

To suggest that the trust special administrator regime is a natural extension of the existing legislation is a gross distortion. The TSA process was never intended to be used as a back-door way to make unpopular reconfigurations. Potentially, clause 119 could take control of every NHS trust and foundation trust away from the public, leaving no hospital bed in the country safe. It should not stand part of the Bill.

If the Bill is enacted, clause 119 will mean that the NHS in England will face further wholesale, top-down reorganisations. The clause could be used as a method to achieve that. I do not think that anyone in this House wishes that to happen. I am sure that, in their hearts, some Government Members do not want that, and certainly no one in the country voted for it. Our problem is that there would be virtually no accountability to local people.

The successful legal challenge brought by the London borough of Lewisham and the Save Lewisham Hospital umbrella campaign—I pay tribute to their efforts, which have brought about this situation—showed conclusively that the Secretary of State did not have the power to axe Lewisham’s accident and emergency and maternity wards as a solution to problems in the neighbouring South London Healthcare NHS Trust.

Clause 119 is designed to allow the Secretary of State to do what he failed to do in Lewisham—to close down thriving and financially sustainable hospitals on a whim, without full and proper consultation. To suggest, as was said in Committee, that a tokenistic meeting with a local authority overview and scrutiny committee would assuage public concerns does not hold water. We must rebuild trust: we need full and proper consultation with patients and the public, and we need agreements with clinical commissioning groups. I am somewhat surprised at the willingness of Government Members, who have championed the cause of GP-led commissioning, to subvert the role of CCGs in that respect.

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[Mr Burns]

I am grateful to my right hon.—or, rather, the right hon. Gentleman; I nearly made a Freudian slip—for that question. I can unequivocally say to him that I believe it as strongly and firmly today as I did when I was one of the Ministers taking the Health and Social Care Bill through this House three years ago. And I shall tell the right hon. Gentleman why I believe it.

I was saying that politicians of all parties must strengthen their backbone and be prepared to look at each case of reconfiguration on its merits, and then take difficult decisions if they are in the best interests of patients. I believe that reconfigurations should initially be determined at local level—[Interruption.] If the right hon. Member for Leigh will wait, I will get to his point. They should be determined by local commissioners in consultation with local people and with the health and wellbeing boards, which play a vital part in keeping local communities and local health interests plugged in and represented, and in ensuring the delivery of the necessary services locally.

However—this is where I get to the right hon. Gentleman’s point—there will be a few rare and exceptional circumstances in which a TSA will have to be appointed. That is what happened in the case of South London. At that time, I happened to be privy to all the discussions that led up to what was, if I remember correctly, the unprecedented decision taken by the then Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley).

[Mr Dorrell]

My right hon. Friend is making the key point in this debate. He is describing a locally rooted, clinically led consultation process that engages the professional community as well as the local political community. It must be right that we deliver change in the health and care system in that way. The Health and Social Care Act was motivated by exactly that thought process, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) said. That is not what clause 119 is about, however. It covers how we should deal with the very confined circumstances in which all those processes have failed. Are we really going to say that a trust special administrator can only look at the circumstances of an institution that has been proved to be unviable? Or are we going to allow him to look outside those circumstances, in order to deliver better care for patients? That is the question the House has to decide on this evening.

[Mr Burns]

As always, my right hon. Friend anticipates what I am about to say and says it in a far more straightforward way. He is absolutely right to say that there will be exceptional circumstances; there has been one instance so far. In such circumstances, the health economy in a particular area will need to be looked at—not in isolation; that is impossible owing to the nature of patient flows and the delivery of care—in order to get to the bottom of the problem and solve it on the ground.

A number of hon. Members said that clause 119 was a vehicle for closing down hospitals or services while totally disregarding the wishes and needs of the local health economy and local people. I say to them with the greatest respect that they have—probably for genuine reasons—misunderstood the purpose of the TSA. I ask them to think again, because this is too important an issue to be politicised and used in a game of ping-pong between political parties, or groups within those parties, to try to score political points. Our sole aim must be to ensure the improvement and viability of services. Sometimes, tough decisions will have to be taken—because of changing patterns, or whatever—and in the overwhelming majority of cases, they will be taken through consultation and through the decision-making process in the local health economy.

We have been talking about the power of the TSA. I must point out, in the friendliest and gentlest way, that that power was not introduced into the health service by this Government. It was done, I think I am right in saying, by the right hon. Member for Leigh’s predecessor, and he did it for very good reasons. He accepted, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), the Chair of the Select Committee, said in his intervention, that there will be rare occasions when everything else has failed and this measure of last resort must be used. It is viable and reasonable to have that power as a measure of last resort, as the previous Government obviously thought; otherwise, they would never have put it on the statute book in their legislation.

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[Mr Dorrell]

I shall make two brief points, which I think are the two things for which the Bill will be remembered. The first is a story that started 17 years ago, when Tony Blair as a newly elected Labour Prime Minister went to the Labour party conference and said that a Labour Government should not tolerate a position in which families lose their houses in order for their loved ones to be cared for. It has taken 17 years to legislate the solution to that problem, and I congratulate my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench on having redeemed the Blair pledge.

It was interesting that in his Third Reading speech the shadow Secretary of State started by saying that the Bill builds on the ideas that he pursued as Secretary of State. He is right when he says that, which is why the second half of his speech was such nonsense. The other element of his record on which the Bill builds is making real a commitment to joining up health and social care. We have had generations of Secretaries of State, including me and the right hon. Gentleman, who have made the case for joining up health and social care. It is the better care fund introduced by this Government which ensures that resources flow in a way that will make that rhetoric real.

The Bill will thus be remembered, first, for rationalising the individual contribution. The shadow Secretary of State has an endless argument with his colleague the shadow Chancellor about funding social care, but what we have is a plan that makes that system better than it has been hitherto. Secondly, we have a clear commitment to resource flows across the health and social care divide. Those are the two key elements of the Bill, which is why I welcome it and why I shall vote for it if I get the opportunity to do so this evening.

Care Bill [Lords]

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Monday 10th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Paul Burstow]

This part of the Bill and this group of new clauses and amendments are all about ensuring that the system delivers the best possible quality of care and that, when things go wrong, it is clear how the situation is to be corrected and what penalties will be faced by those who have let people down and, in some cases, treated them in an appalling way. There is much in this part of the Bill that is to be applauded, although the nature of the Report stage of a Bill means that we often do not applaud a Bill much, because we are focusing on the things that we want to amend further.

New clause 8 deals with a subject that was also a feature of our discussions in Committee—namely, the concern that the commissioning role of too many local authorities, and the discharge of their responsibilities for planning for the care and support needs in their communities, had degenerated into little more than crude procurements and, worse still, in some cases just spot purchasing of care services. In some local authorities, there was no sense of strategy or of engagement with the local population, and there were no pragmatic conversations with provider organisations ahead of a procurement process. There was no real sense of how to shape the market to deliver the best possible outcome from the point of view of the wider public interest.

Those concerns were expressed a number of times in Committee, and they have been echoed throughout all the stages of the Bill. They were certainly strongly expressed by a number of the representative bodies of provider organisations when they gave evidence to the Joint Committee scrutinising the Bill. Of all the evidence sessions in that Joint Committee, the one that sticks with me is the one at which the provider organisations gave evidence. There was a palpable sense of the deterioration, and even the collapse, of relationships between local authorities and providers as a consequence of the commissioning not being done well in some organisations.

My new clause is designed to address a concern expressed by a number of organisations about a change that the Government made to the Bill in the other place. In that change, they removed from the legislation that established the Care Quality Commission the provision for periodic reviews of the performance of local authorities in regard to their statutory duties on care and support. I am prepared to accept the arguments that the Minister made before removing that provision, but only if we can have much greater certainty that the Care Quality Commission will undertake regular thematic reviews of care and support services.

New clause 8 sets out a number of the things that I think such a thematic review should include. For example, we have established a regime for sector-led improvement whereby local authorities can seek peer review of their delivery of quality commissioning of care and support services. It is working well in some places, but there is certainly evidence that it is not in others. There is a concern that arrangements will be made that allow an inadequate level of peer review and, frankly, people to get away with not doing the right thing. That is why a back-stop provision allowing thematic reviews is absolutely essential, and why ideally I would like the CQC to be independent in its judgment on that, rather than beholden to Ministers to authorise it. That is not the situation we are in, but the new clause would have us look at those issues.

I was told by a provider that I met at an event which the United Kingdom Homecare Association organised with me that CQC inspectors positively discourage comments about local authority commissioning. If a provider has a concern about how they are being constricted, arguably inappropriately, by a commissioner’s decision or practice and tries to raise that with an inspector, they are told, “That is not a matter for us.” It is absolutely a matter for the CQC. I hope the Minister can say something about what he will say to the CQC on that issue. It seems to me that understanding the intervention of commissioners is a really important part of gathering intelligence about the robustness of a local care economy, and the best way to gather that intelligence, at least in part, is by inspectors being open to being told about that.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is a matter of not only looking at how competently a local authority commissioning process is commissioning the service as we know it, but thinking beyond that and enlarging the role of commissioning in changing the balance in the system of care delivery?

[Paul Burstow]

Absolutely. That is why the duty on market shaping set out in the Bill is about stretching the local authority to take that wider population-level interest, and not only for the people for whom they will arrange care and for whose care and support needs they will pay, but for the whole population who might need care and support but will be funding it themselves. I do not see how local authorities can satisfactorily discharge that new and important responsibility if there is not also a fairly critical examination of commissioning practices themselves. That is why I have tabled the new clause.

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[Nick Smith]

My hon. Friend has got to the nub of the issue. Managers and directors of organisations such as care homes have to accept that they set the culture of those places, and that they are responsible for looking after the residents in their care, and for avoiding neglect and abuse. If they get it wrong, they should face the possibility of a jail sentence. That is what the new clause would do.

We must go that extra mile to ensure that our safeguards deliver for care home residents. New clause 27 would greatly help that cause. I intend to divide the House on the measure.

[Mr Dorrell]

I want to speak primarily to the new clauses moved by my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, but first I wish to comment on the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie), who has been a consistent advocate of the importance of ensuring that we have a culture in our health and care system that creates space for whistle- blowers, not because we want a world full of whistleblowers, but because we want an open culture—as she rightly says—in which the whistleblower is redundant.

The example often cited in this area comes from the US Navy. A junior rating prevented flying from an aircraft carrier because he was concerned about a safety element. As it happened, the concern was misplaced, but the rating was celebrated because he had the courage to raise it. The culture of the ship was such that it allowed that individual to take the steps necessary to cover the risk. In a sense, the story is most telling because the concern was misplaced but the individual was celebrated for having had the courage to take action. That is the kind of culture that we should have in the health and care system.

I do not agree that we need a candour commissioner: it is part of the core function of the Care Quality Commission’s inspections of health and care provider institutions to make an assessment of whether that culture exists in an institution. If that culture does not exist, it is hard to see how that institution can deliver the standards of care that we would all want to see.

My main reason for speaking is to pick up the points raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond—

[Paul Burstow]

Sutton and Cheam.

[Mr Dorrell]

Forgive me—the right part of London, but the wrong constituency.

My right hon. Friend is on to an important point and I shall listen with care to what the Minister has to say in reply. We have been arguing for the best part of a quarter of a century about the role of commissioners, not just in the social care sector but across the health and care sector. As my right hon. Friend said, in different parts of the Health and Social Care Act 2012 this commitment to what is, in the jargon, called integration, but what I prefer to call joined-up services, is introduced into different parts of the system. Rightly, my right hon. Friend wants to include it in the terms of reference of the Care Quality Commission, but we need to think beyond just introducing it as an add-on into bits of legislation, the prime purpose of which lies elsewhere.

In my view we have no choice—and I do not particularly want a choice—but to create a health and care system that puts more emphasis on prevention, on community services and on joining those services to the rest of the health and care provider network. For a quarter of a century we have been seeking, rather spasmodically and under Governments of all political complexions, to build a commissioner system charged with delivering that type of care system. Ministers need to rise to the challenge of showing how we move from where we are today towards a commissioning system that is fit for purpose to deliver that type of care outcome. The system that we operate is often described as fragmented, and we all know that different parts of the system are indeed fragmented. But the fragmentation is worst in the commissioning institutions. We have social service authorities that are responsible for commissioning social care, and in the next sentence of our speeches we say that that is the same thing as community services, but those are commissioned by CCGs. In the next breath, we say that community health is the same as primary health, but that is commissioned by NHS England. As they say in the modern jargon, “Talk me through it.” How do we deliver properly joined-up services if the people responsible for commissioning the service are so fragmented?

[Paul Burstow]

My right hon. Friend is making a very important point, which he has pursued vigorously as Chair of the Select Committee. Does he agree that part of the evolution that needs to take place is an extension of the role that we originally envisaged for health and wellbeing boards, so that they become the place where these matters come together? The default should be changed to one that presumes integration and joined-up services, rather than the other way around.

[Mr Dorrell]

I agree with the thought that my right hon. Friend identifies. I have been choosing my words with care—I hope—in inviting the Minister to chart a course towards a more joined-up concept of commissioning. Almost as I offer my critique of the commissioning structures, I can feel officials in the Box writing the next version of the legislation that will have another go at providing the perfect solution to deliver something that is better than we have ever dreamt up before. I emphasise that what I am looking for from the Minister is a route map or journey—a process, not an event—and preferably one that builds on existing institutions rather than committing what I regard as the mistake of starting again with a clean sheet of paper.

[Grahame M. Morris]

The idea that the right hon. Gentleman propagates, which he has long held—that fragmentation is a bad thing and integration and joined-up services are a good thing—is one that I subscribe to, but does he share my concerns at reports that the commissioning functions through the clinical commissioning groups are to be privatised? Is that likely to make for more joined-up services or greater fragmentation?

[Mr Dorrell]

The hon. Gentleman knows that I do not entirely share his concern about who holds the share certificate for a particular service. I am more concerned about the accountability of a public authority for the use of public money to deliver a public service. On that, the hon. Gentleman and I are probably as one. I am also concerned that the system, from the perspective of the patient and service user, does not rely on them finding their way under their own steam through an impenetrable morass, but is designed with their needs and instincts in mind. That is a test that our current system simply does not pass and has not passed for many years.

[Mr Tom Clarke]

The right hon. Gentleman speaks with enormous authority on these matters. On the issue of community care, does he agree that for many years we have talked about joint planning, which is essential if community care is to be delivered? Does he feel that, even with the Bill and the proposed new clauses, the commission would have sufficient authority to ensure that it works as efficiently and sensitively as the House would expect?

[Mr Dorrell]

No, I do not believe that simply empowering the Care Quality Commission to go into that space is the answer to the question that I am posing. My right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) is closer to the right answer in identifying the health and wellbeing board at a local level as the beginnings of an organisation that can deliver a more joined-up commissioning process, joining up the social care system, the community health system, the primary health system and, of course, the hospital service—and I always add the social housing people. In a properly joined-up service, they would focus their attention on the needs of the individual patient service user—an awful piece of terminology; we cannot work out precisely what to call them.

I wish to highlight a bit of institutional tension. My right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam proposes that this is a function for the CQC, but I am not entirely convinced. A tension underlying several contributions this evening relates to whether the CQC is the regulator of a provider, or an organisation with responsibility for charting the course, which I am looking for from the Minister, towards a new form of commissioning. The CQC has a full job to do responding to some of the things that my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West was talking about—culture and service quality on the provider side—and I am not persuaded that trying to manoeuvre it into the space of developing the kind of joined-up commissioning service I am describing is the right answer to that question.

[Norman Lamb]

I reassure my right hon. Friend that I want to chart the course with him. I completely agree on the need to bring commissioning together. The better care fund is a good nudge in the right direction, but we need to go much further in due course.

[Mr Dorrell]

I am grateful to the Minister for his encouragement that I am on the right path.

There is a serious question here. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam that, at a local level, the health and wellbeing board is the organisation best placed to move forward with the process of more joined-up commissioning. How we, as MPs, satisfy ourselves that this is happening to the required standard, with the required levels of economic efficiency across the system as a whole and above the level of the health and wellbeing board, is one of the questions left unanswered by the institutions we currently have. I am not entirely persuaded that the CQC should be encouraged into what I regard as a vacuum.

[Mrs Lewell-Buck]

I will speak to amendment 19 and echo some of the excellent comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Mr Reed).

Amendment 19 would reinstate the Care Quality Commission’s duty to inspect the commissioning of adult social care services by local authorities. The case for the amendment is very simple: the quality of commissioning has a huge impact on the quality of care that people receive. It is extremely important that our adult social care system includes checks to ensure that commissioning is of a high standard. At present, this is not the case.

The current model of sector-led improvement introduced by this Government in 2010 leaves it to local authority peer reviews to identify failure. In practice, this means that neighbouring authorities that already work in close collaboration inspect each other, but only when a neighbouring authority volunteers for inspection. Of course, local authorities that are confident in their commissioning practices are happy to volunteer themselves for scrutiny, but what about those that do not volunteer? It is surely those authorities that we should be most concerned about, yet under the current system they are not subject to proper oversight. Worryingly, the majority of authorities have not been assessed under the peer review scheme. In total, 127 local authorities have not had their commissioning reviewed since 2010. We would not allow this type of reckless leniency with any other service that looks after our most vulnerable. I am certain that it should not continue.

It is clear that when it comes to inspecting local authorities’ commissioning practices, some uniformity and impartiality are needed. The CQC is best positioned to carry out that duty. Certainly, the chief executive of the CQC thinks so, commenting that he has not

“spoken to any national provider association who doesn’t think councils should be inspected”

and believes that

“the removal of that power from CQC was seen as a retrograde step”.

When this proposal was raised in Committee, the Minister insisted that it was unnecessary. He argued that CQC inspection of providers could identify patterns of poor commissioning that would be grounds for a special review.

--- Later in debate ---

[Grahame M. Morris]

My right hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head, because there has been a catalogue of mismanagement. What we need to do if we believe in the importance of such a database is to ensure that we rebuild public trust. The Government have an opportunity to do that, but it will not be a simple matter. We have to look carefully at the implications of what the Government propose and give the necessary assurances.

The assurance that the official gave to the Health Committee had a gap that a coach and horses could be driven through. Several multinational companies could get round it by establishing a subsidiary based in the UK that would have access to the data, if that were the only safeguard.

[Mr Dorrell]

I want to return to a theme that we were discussing in an earlier debate this evening. The true nature of the hon. Gentleman’s concern is unclear. If his concern is that sensitive patient information should be made available only on the basis that the identity of the individual can never be traced and the data remain properly anonymised and confidential, I think that concern would be shared on both sides of the House. But is that his real concern, or is it that the information might be used by a private sector body for the purpose of improving the delivery of health care? I am not clear, provided that the information is anonymised and patient identity is properly secured, what his objection could be.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I thought I was being fairly clear. In the debate on the earlier group of amendments, we discussed the privatisation of the clinical commissioning function. My concern is that that would lead to greater fragmentation, not greater co-operation. On data sharing, I think it was my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) who gave the example of a questionnaire she was asked to fill in by her GP, which contained questions relating to alcohol consumption, smoking and so on. If that information was made available to a private health care company and, as a consequence, premiums were increased, people would have concerns. The Minister said that that has been ruled out and that it would not happen, but it is an example of why such concerns have been raised.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Tuesday 25th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Norman Lamb]

I am conscious that finances in local government are tight, but the better care fund, which I mentioned just now, has been widely welcomed. I was with a director of adult social care last Friday, who told me that his authority was planning to pool not just its share of the better care fund but the whole of its social care budget with the local health budget. That sort of radical, innovative thinking is exactly what we want and it will ensure that we protect services for vulnerable people.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that the steps that the Government are taking to reform the funding of care for the elderly represent long overdue action to deal with an issue that has bedevilled this world for more than 20 years? Tony Blair promised the Labour conference in 1997 that he would deal with it, and he did precisely nothing about it.

[Norman Lamb]

I remember the quote from Tony Blair well—he did not want to live in a country where people have to sell their homes to pay for care. However, over 13 years of the last Labour Government nothing happened. There were lots of commitments—manifesto commitments and so on. However, I am proud of the fact that this coalition Government are implementing reform, and it is long overdue.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Tuesday 14th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

We are very keen to make home care packages much more portable. There are problems with home care packages across the board, particularly the 15-minute slots that, frankly, are completely unacceptable. We are definitely looking at that issue and I encourage the hon. Lady to talk to the Minister responsible for care services, my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), to get more details on the progress we are making.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) is the most important single question facing the health and care system? Do not too many elderly people—the greatest single source of growing demand on the health and care system—experience our system not as a national health service but as a national illness service? Is not the challenge facing the system to ensure that, as people live longer, we enable them to get greater quality out of those extended life years?

[Mr Hunt]

As so often, my right hon. Friend encourages us to raise our heads above the horizon and to look forward. He is absolutely right. There will be 1 million people with dementia by 2020 and, as he knows, most of those will have other long-term conditions alongside dementia. The name of the game will be looking after people so they can live healthily at home, which will be the focus of health policy.

Care Bill [Lords]

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Monday 16th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

I was proposing a fundamentally different policy in a national care service. I ask the Secretary of State politely whether it is about time he stopped trying to say that everything is about the past? Why did he not stand there, explain and justify his own policy? Would that have been a good thing for him to have done today, instead of leaving it to me to explain what he is proposing?

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

In the interests of explaining his policy, will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the answer to the question posed by the Secretary of State and the Minister was, “Yes”?

[Andy Burnham]

I say again, with all respect to the Chair of the Health Committee, that I was proposing a fundamentally different scheme to that in the Bill. I was proposing a universal all-in scheme, and several steps were put forward to get us to that. The right hon. Gentleman knows that because the Conservative party and those on the Government Front Bench put posters up about that scheme before the last election. Does he remember that? [Interruption.] He nods, right—that was my proposal, but it is not the Government’s proposal, which is different. I proposed various steps to get to my scheme. Is it about time the Government started answering for their proposal, rather than for mine?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

I welcome the Bill. I do not propose to follow the shadow Secretary of State into a discussion of competition policy, as there will be plenty of other occasions for that; it is not germane to this Bill. The reason I welcome the Bill is that it begins to look at health and care from a different point of view from the one with which those of us who have participated in health and care debates in this Chamber over a long period are familiar. When a Bill comes before the House, it usually starts off by describing the function of one bit of the bureaucracy—perhaps creating a strategic health authority or re-creating a different bit of the bureaucracy somewhere else on the landscape. This Bill starts in a quite different place.

Clause 1 talks about the “well-being” of individuals and suggests that if we are to build a health and care system that meets the needs of patients and users for the 21st century, we should, instead of thinking of it as a bureaucracy planned from the top down, think about the service that is delivered to individuals who rely on these services. Clause 1 talks about the needs of individuals, and later clauses place an obligation on local authorities to do needs assessments for those individuals.

Clause 2 introduces something that the health and care system has talked about since 1948, but almost never put real resource into, which is preventing the need for the delivery of health and care services, and particularly of acute health care. This Bill’s emphasis is on the needs of individuals and on the need we each feel as individuals to avoid unnecessary health costs and care. None of us wants to be a patient in an intensive care unit if it is avoidable. That is why clause 2 talks about the importance of prevention and avoiding the need for care.

[Mrs Moon]

Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that it is possible to carry out lots of needs assessment—goodness knows, I carried out many of them in my day—but that unless care is available to allow a patient to be discharged from hospital, it does not matter how many needs assessments have been done? In fact, the longer patients are in hospital, the greater their needs will be—they will not be able to walk, their incontinence will increase and so forth. What is important is to put the cart before the horse and make sure that the funding of community-based care is there. It is not there at the moment.

[Mr Dorrell]

I shall come on to that point, but to react directly to the hon. Lady’s point, surely it is much better to intervene before the patient arrives in hospital in the first place, preventing the avoidable episode of care. The hon. Lady talks about discharge, and she is, of course, quite right, but how much better is it to prevent the case from arising in the first place, which is what clause 2 is about?

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

I think that is precisely the point my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) was making. The money simply is not there in local government. When 20% of the adult services budget has been lost, the services are not there and the care managers are not there to do the assessment to decide whether to keep people at home or to help them get out of hospital. The service back in the community, after people have come out of hospital, is not there either. Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that that money has to go back in?

[Mr Dorrell]

Of course I accept that if we have more money, we can do more, but I do not think that that exempts us, particularly given the public finances we inherited in 2010, from the obligation to see how we can get more for the £125 billion of taxpayers’ money that is already committed to health and social care in England.

That brings me to clause 3. The only way to deliver person-centred care and early intervention to prevent avoidable cases, is to reinvent care on a much more integrated model between the national health service and the social care authorities. That is why there is the obligation in clause 3 to consider integrating health and care. In that way we will not think of the NHS as one bureaucracy and social care as another, but instead think of it, as Mike Farrar said when he was at the NHS Confederation, as a care system that provides medical support when necessary, rather than as a medical system that provides care support when it has got the money—that is how not to do it.

[Andy Burnham]

The right hon. Gentleman will recall that the NHS chief executive stood before him and his Committee saying that the competition legislation was the biggest barrier to achieving the vision he is rightly describing; he and I agree about the vision of person-centred services in the home. If the NHS is saying that before his Committee, why does he say that the competition regime is irrelevant? Is it not fragmenting care, rather than integrating it?

[Mr Dorrell]

I did not say it was irrelevant; I said it was not germane to this Bill—and in the seven minutes remaining to me, I am not going to cover that. All I will say to the right hon. Gentleman is that the difficulty with competition policy that the NHS chief executive talked about is a difficulty that health care systems around the world—in north America and in continental Europe—are finding as well. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman, however, that we need to look at how competition policy can be aligned with the policy prescriptions I am describing.

I now want to list the fourth key premise upon which this Bill is based; in what must be a short speech, I can list only four. It is around the well-being of individuals; it is around early intervention and prevention; it is around integration; it is also, critically, for the first time in statutory form, around doing needs assessments that take account of the needs not just of the individual person, but of their carer and social context as well. In that way, the support that is provided to individuals takes account of the context in which they live, rather than treats them as individuals divorced from the carers and people who care for them when the statutory social worker is not there.

The Opposition spokesman said this is an enormously ambitious set of objectives, and I entirely agree that the objective of redefining the delivery of health and social care in a way that matches the aims set out in the first three clauses and clause 10 around carers is ambitious. The objective is to re-imagine care so that we think of the health and care system not as being primarily around acute hospitals, but as a system designed to meet the needs of that majority of people who are the main focus of those who work in the service—people who primarily have a care need with an occasional medical or clinical requirement. In other words, this is about thinking about the system from the front end rather than viewing it from the top of the bureaucracy. I commend this Bill because I believe it sets that framework in statute.

I also commend the Government because they are not just setting out these aspirations as commitments in law. It is one thing to change the law. It is another thing to change the way the service is actually delivered on the ground. The most effective step the Government have taken to achieve this re-imagination of care is the £3.8 billion that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State talked about. That is £3.8 billion voted into the NHS but available only if the service at local level delivers the joined-up, person-centred care that is set out in the first three clauses of the Bill. So this is not just a set of wordy aspirations; it is a set of aspirations supported by the resources necessary to deliver the change in the care model that the Bill describes. The £3.8 billion is the catalyst that will allow us to deliver the objectives.

With respect to those on the Opposition Front Bench, it is wrong to say that it is only £3.8 billion out of £125 billion. The £3.8 billion is the minimum that the law will require to deliver integrated care within a locality, through the health and wellbeing boards that are much beloved of the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) and which were legislated for by the Government. This is an important step forward. If the health and wellbeing board in a locality can see a way to use health resources to deliver a changed model of care that puts more focus on prevention and on individuals through the delivery of more joined-up services, there is no constraint in the legislation, as I understand it, to prevent more than £3.8 billion from being used for the delivery of that objective.

Resources are important in this regard. This is partly about the £3.8 billion from the taxpayer, but it is also about individual resources. It is about individual users having their right set out in the Bill to engage with their personal budgets and with direct payments, enabling them to make real choices about how joined-up, person-centred care will work best for them. It is the curse of these health debates to imagine that we can gather 650 people together in this Chamber and work out how we are going to deliver £125 billion-worth of care in a way that will work for an individual old lady in her own home. That is nonsense; we need to engage the people themselves in the decisions on how the resources are used. We also need to assure them that they will not be exposed to catastrophic personal losses by making their own contributions to their care. That is why I welcome the fact that, despite what the right hon. Member for Leigh says, the Bill gives effect to the basic propositions set out in the Dilnot report.

The Bill sets out the vision of person-centred, joined-up, integrated care, and the Government have set out plans to commit resources to turn those fine words into deeds. Also, through the establishment of an independent Care Quality Commission, the Bill will provide independent assurance about the quality of care that is provided right across the health and care system. The right hon. Gentleman claims credit, as he is entitled to do so, for the fact that the previous Government took the first faltering steps down the road to introducing proper regulation of health and care provision, but he cannot possibly believe that the Care Quality Commission that he bequeathed was fit for purpose. If he does, he is the only man in the kingdom to do so. I welcome the fact that this Government are putting in place new management and, importantly, a new statutory framework so that the aspirations that might have motivated the Labour Government to set up the CQC will now be delivered in reality.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Tuesday 26th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

The truth is that the previous Government had 13 years to integrate the health and social care systems, but they failed. We are doing that, and we are also providing named GPs to the most vulnerable people, so that, hopefully, they do not have to go to hospital in the first place. That is doing a lot more for older people than the hon. Lady’s Government ever did.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that successive Governments over 30 years have talked about the importance of joining up the different bits of the health care system and joining that up with social care? Is not the difference between this Government and their predecessors that, through health and wellbeing boards, the integrated care fund, named GPs and the pioneers programme that he has announced, this Government are actually doing it, rather than just talking about it?

[Mr Hunt]

I have to pay tribute to my right hon. Friend, because he has been talking about the integration of health and social care for a lot longer than I have, and he is absolutely right. I would add to his list one other really important thing we are doing: we are making sure that whatever part of the system someone is in, doctors can access their GP medical record—with their permission—because that information is vital in showing their allergies, medical history and previous admissions. Breaking down the barriers that prevent that from happening is one of the things that has not been picked up but is in the GP contract.

Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Tuesday 19th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

We have to wait and see, but we have put in place a radical, tough new Ofsted-style inspection regime. The point of that regime is not just to identify hospitals where care is unsafe, but to identify outstanding hospitals, so that hospitals in difficulty have hospitals from which they can learn, and we create a culture, just as we have in schools, where failing schools learn from outstanding schools and have a pathway to improvement. That will make a big difference. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, we now have 13 hospitals in special measures, and I am sure there will be more as the inspection process gets under way. But we will also have the great hospitals that we can learn from, which will mean that this can be a positive process for the NHS.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

I commend my right hon. Friend for the thoughtful and thorough way in which he has conducted the reaction to the publication of the Francis inquiry. Does he agree that the most chilling finding of Francis was that professional people whose focus should have been on the needs of their patients found themselves, in Francis’s words, “doing the system’s business”? Is not the central driver of my right hon. Friend’s recommendations to ensure that never again shall we have closed institutions in a closed system where that is possible, and that the key way forward is to throw sunlight into institutions that have too often been unchallenged?

[Mr Hunt]

My right hon. Friend, as so often, speaks wisely. This is probably the boldest step towards transparency taken by any health care system anywhere in the world. We will see if he is right, but I think that he is, because sunlight is the best disinfectant. It means that problems are sorted out much more quickly, but it is sometimes an uncomfortable process. It is really important that we as a country understand that exposing poor care in one place does not mean that there is poor care everywhere and that, in fact, exposing it is the quickest way to sort it out.

Changes to Health Services in London

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Wednesday 30th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

I am afraid the right hon. Gentleman is sounding more and more desperate. Today the Government have taken a difficult decision that will improve services for patients. It was a moment for him to show that he understood the challenges facing the NHS, but that was not to be. He said that we should not proceed with the changes given winter pressures on A and Es, but he should read the document. The proposals are for more emergency care doctors, more critical care doctors, and more psychiatric liaison support that helps A and E departments, and they are supported by the medical directors of all nine trusts affected. He said that if evidence can be produced to show that the proposals will save lives, Labour will support them. What more evidence does he want? He should be shouting from the rooftops to support the proposals, but instead he is putting politics before patients.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned A and E performance, and I am happy to tell him about that. On average a person now waits 50 minutes in A and E before they are seen; when he was Health Secretary it was 71 minutes. The number of patients seen in less than four hours every day is 57,000—nearly 2,000 more than when the right hon. Gentleman was Health Secretary. Our hospitals are performing extremely well under a great deal of pressure because we are taking difficult decisions of the kind that we are talking about today.

The right hon. Gentleman also talked about hospital closures. Again, he should read the proposals: a brand new trauma centre at St Mary’s hospital in Paddington; two brand new elective care centres at Ealing and Charing Cross; seven-day NHS care that will save lives; 24/7 obstetric care; 16 paediatric care centres. Those are big improvements in hospital care—[Interruption.] I will come on to Lewisham. I am acting to end uncertainty because I made the decision today that whatever the outcome of further discussions that the Independent Reconfiguration Panel recommends, there will remain an A and E at Ealing and Charing Cross. That is the best thing I can do for those residents.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned Lewisham, but let us remember that the problem started because his Government saddled South London Healthcare NHS Trust with £150 million in private finance initiative costs. I judged that the right thing for patients was to sort out a problem that was diverting £1 million every week from the front line. Yes it is difficult, but I would rather lose a battle with the courts trying to do the right thing for patients than not try at all.

Finally, these are difficult decisions, but the party that really has NHS interests at heart is the one that is prepared to grip those decisions. We are gripping the problems in A and E, and in terms of hospital reconfigurations. That is why the NHS is safe in our hands and not safe in those of the Labour party.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that we tackle health inequalities, and improve health outcomes and access to accident and emergency departments, by facing up to the need to make difficult decisions to change the way care is delivered to keep it up to date? Does he further agree that today we have seen a Government who are prepared to face those challenges, and an Opposition spokesman who has demonstrated a determination to duck them? Who cares about the NHS?

[Mr Hunt]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that comment. He is right that this is about facing up to difficult decisions. One aspect of the proposals that is so exciting for people who want a transformation in services is that they involve employing 800 additional people for out-of-hospital care. The real way we will reduce pressure on A and E units is by ensuring that people, particularly the frail and elderly, are looked after better at home. That is what we must do. We must recognise that, fundamentally, the problems will not be solved by trying to pour in money in the way that it has always been poured in. We must rethink the model. This is a positive and ambitious programme. If the shadow Secretary of State were in my shoes, he would speak differently of the proposals, because they represent the way forward for the kind of integrated care he normally champions.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Dr Poulter]

I am disappointed that the hon. Gentleman used a pre-prepared question and did not listen to my answer. Throughout the health care provider sector, over 80% of trusts and foundation trusts are in financial surplus, and the overall end-of-year forecast is pointing to a surplus of £109 million across the sector. To support hospitals through what can be very difficult winter periods, with flu and other seasonal problems, we have put in place measures including a £500 million fund for winter pressures. That will take the pressure off A and E—unlike in Wales, where the Welsh Administration are cutting the budget for the NHS. In Wales the NHS has failed to meet A and E waiting targets since 2009.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

While I welcome the fact that the provider sector as a whole is in surplus, will my hon. Friend confirm that some trusts are indeed anticipating that they will be running deficits? Will he also confirm that the National Audit Office has estimated that up to 30% of acute hospital admissions would be avoidable if we had properly integrated services, and that that would allow us to deliver not only better financial management but, much more importantly, better quality care for patients?

[Dr Poulter]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight the fact that a very small minority—20%—of trusts across the health care provider sector, including trusts and foundation trusts, are anticipating a deficit. Many of those trusts have a direct legacy of debt from the private finance initiative arrangements that the previous Government put in place. That is one of the direct legacies of the poor PFI deals that were arranged. He is absolutely right to highlight the importance of integrated and joined-up health care. That is exactly what the £500 million we are providing for winter pressures is designed to do by focusing on better preventive care to keep people out of hospital.

Accident and Emergency Departments

Stephen Dorrell Excerpts

Tuesday 10th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

In the right hon. Gentleman’s endless quest to turn the NHS into a political football, he, disappointingly, paints a picture that is a long way from reality. He talks about A and E performance. Yes, since I have been Health Secretary we have missed our target in one quarter, but when he was Health Secretary he missed it in two of the three quarters, including 14 weeks over the crucial winter period. What he does not tell the House is that this Government actually hit their A and E target for the year as a whole, whereas in Labour-controlled Wales the NHS budget has been cut and the A and E target has not been hit since 2009—he repeatedly refuses to confront that.

The right hon. Gentleman talks about the number of nurses being down. He might want to check the figures and correct the record for the House when he uses the 5,000 figure, because the fact is that the number of hospital nurses—hospitals are where A and E departments are—has gone up under this Government, as has the number of doctors, health visitors and midwives. None of that would be possible if we had cut the NHS budget by £600 million from its current levels, which is his policy.

The right hon. Gentleman then talks about the social care budget. Under his Government the number of over-80s went up by more than a quarter, yet the Labour Government cut social care funding per head. We have introduced the innovative £3.8 billion merged health and social care fund, which will transform the joined-up nature of the services that people receive.

Finally, I am afraid that Labour Members are burying their heads in the sand about the enormous damage they did when they removed named GPs for members of the public under the GP contract. Professor Keith Willett, one of the most senior doctors in the NHS and responsible for all A and E services in NHS England, has said that between 15% and 30% of the people using A and E could be using primary care instead. That is why we are announcing really important changes to the way in which the GP contract operates, in order to address this problem. When the Government come before the House with a sensible package of short-term and long-term measures, any responsible Opposition would welcome it—instead, we have had political posturing and no attempt to address the real challenges facing the NHS.

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

May I welcome the £250 million that my right hon. Friend has announced as short-term relief of the pressures in A and E departments this winter, and in particular the £10 million he has announced for Leicester’s hospitals trust? Does he agree that the way to relieve pressure in A and E departments is by recognising that the health and care system is a single system that needs to be joined up and that the announcement by the Chancellor of £3.8 billion made available from health service spending to promote better integration of health and social care is the most effective single thing we can do to relieve pressure on A and E departments?

[Mr Hunt]

As so often on these matters, my right hon. Friend speaks extremely wisely. Since April, we have been working hard to deal with the underlying pressures on A and E departments while ensuring that we have cash available for short-term measures while those longer-term measures are put in place. He is absolutely right that joined-up integrated services are critical for A and E departments, because one of the biggest problems that they mention is the difficulty in discharging people from hospital, which makes it hard for them to admit patients who need to be admitted, often in very distressed circumstances. We also need to address the longer-term IT problems that mean that A and E departments cannot access people’s medical records and the question of alternatives to A and E, particularly in the community and through enhanced GP services.