John Bercow
Main Page: John Bercow (Speaker - Buckingham)Department Debates - View all John Bercow's debates with the Cabinet Office
(9 years ago)
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Mr Speaker
Before I call the Prime Minister to move the motion, I should inform the House that I have selected amendment (b) in the name of Mr John Baron and others. The amendment will be debated together with the main motion. At the end of the debate, Mr Baron will be invited to move the amendment formally and the questions will then be put, first on the amendment and then on the main motion.
Mr Speaker
Order. The Prime Minister is clearly not giving way at this stage. He has the floor.
The Prime Minister
Mr Speaker, I will take dozens of interventions in the time that I have. I am conscious of not taking up too much time as so many people want to speak, but I promise that I will give way a lot during my speech. Let me make a bit of progress at the start.
In moving this motion, I am not pretending that the answers are simple. The situation in Syria is incredibly complex. I am not overstating the contribution our incredible servicemen and women can make; nor am I ignoring the risks of military action or pretending that military action is any more than one part of the answer. I am absolutely clear that we must pursue a comprehensive strategy that also includes political, diplomatic and humanitarian action, and I know that the long-term solution in Syria—as in Iraq—must ultimately be a Government that represent all of its people and one that can work with us to defeat the evil organisation of ISIL for good.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
Order. The Member who has the Floor cannot be expected to give way to a further intervention when he is in the process of answering an existing one. The hon. Gentlemen are experienced enough denizens of this House to be aware of that.
Jeremy Corbyn
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to give way to my right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy).
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
Order. It is a long-established convention of this House that the Member who has the Floor gives way, or not, as he or she chooses. The Leader of the Opposition has made it clear that, for now, he is not giving way. The appropriate response is not, then, for a Member to jump and shout, “Give way!” That is just not terribly sensible.
Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Though it is indeed customary that he who holds the Floor decides whether to give way, is it not also customary to answer questions when they are put in interventions? We are waiting for the right hon. Gentleman’s answer on Iraq.
Mr Speaker
The hon. Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg) is a sufficiently experienced parliamentarian to know that he has made his own point in his own way, and it is on the record.
Jeremy Corbyn
Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Government’s—[Hon. Members: “Answer!”] Mr Speaker, if I could move on with my speech, I would be most grateful. The Government’s proposal for military action in Syria is not backed by clear and unambiguous authorisation by the United Nations. It does not meet the seven tests set down by the Foreign Affairs Committee, and it does not fulfil three of the four conditions laid down in my own party conference resolution of a couple of months ago.
In the past week, voice has been given to the growing opposition to the Government’s bombing plans—across the country, in Parliament, outside in the media, and indeed in my own party. I believe that this is in consideration of all the wars that we have been involved in over the last 14 years. These matters were debated a great deal during my campaign to be elected leader of the Labour party, and many people think very deeply about these matters. In the light of that record of western military interventions, these matters have to be analysed. British bombing in Syria risks yet more of what President Obama, in a very thoughtful moment, called the “unintended consequences” of the war in Iraq, which he himself opposed at the time. The spectre of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya looms over this debate.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. On a number of occasions complaints have been received from the public, particularly about Prime Minister’s questions. What do you think the public make of it when my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition is shouted down constantly by those on the Government Benches?
Mr Speaker
I think what the public want is a civilised, although robust, debate by Members on both sides of the House. I thank the hon. Gentleman, a very experienced Member, for that point of order. Let us proceed without fear or favour. I call Mr Jeremy Corbyn.
Jeremy Corbyn
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Sometimes in this House we get carried away with the theatricals of the place, and forget there are millions of people who have sent us to this House to represent them. We should be able to conduct our debates in a decent, respectful and civilised manner. Short as this debate is, given the number of Members who want to speak, I hope all those Members who have applied to speak get called.
I conclude with this point: in my view, only a negotiated political and diplomatic endeavour to bring about an end to the civil war in Syria will bring some hope to the millions who have lost their homes, who are refugees, and who are camped out in various points all across Europe, dreaming of a day when they can go home. I think our overriding goal should be to end that civil war in Syria, and obviously also to protect the people of this country. I do not believe that the motion put forward by the Prime Minister achieves that, because it seems to put the emphasis on bombing now, whereas I think it should be not on bombing now, but on bringing all our endeavours, all our intelligence and all our efforts—[Interruption.] It is very strange that Members do not seem to understand that there are millions who watch these debates who want to hear what is being said, and do not want to hear people shouting at each other.
For those reasons, I urge Members on all sides of the House to think very carefully about the responsibility that lies with them today. Do we send in bombers, not totally aware of what all the consequences will be, or do we pause, not send them in, and instead put all our efforts into bringing about a peaceful humanitarian and just political settlement to the terrible situation faced by the people in Syria?
Mrs Moon
I absolutely agree that what we need are facts and greater clarity about our capability to take on the task that is ahead of us. Yesterday we were told there were between 20,000 and 30,000 Daesh across Syria and Iraq, but I could not be given a number as to how many Taliban we were fighting in Afghanistan, to get a comparator, when we had 10,000 of our troops and 30,000 Americans fighting them. I could not get that, and I could not get an answer as to how often we had used our Brimstone missiles and how many more planes we would be flying. Don’t we need those questions answered?
Mr Speaker
Order. I am sorry, but interventions must be brief; they must not be mini-speeches, however well intentioned.
Sir Alan Duncan
May I implore the hon. Lady to appreciate that the search for certainty in the middle east is a vain hope? The watchword I learned 30 years ago when I first went there was, “If you’re not confused, you don’t understand.” It is a very complex world in which we are deciding to act.
Let me move on to my second point. Again, I address this to the Leader of the Opposition: we must not underestimate the extent and nature of the danger we face, and say that because it is all over there, it is not over here. The phenomenon of ISIS/Daesh is not only a vicious force running rampant through that miserable space between Iraq and Syria; it is also fuelling those who would readily walk up the main street of a major city with a suicide bomb or carrying a Kalashnikov. So I urge those who say that air strikes would increase that danger not to give into that narrative: these people are already targeting us now.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
Order. An eight-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches will now apply, with immediate effect.
Several hon. Members rose—
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con)
Since I was 18, I have spent a large portion of my life as a soldier, television reporter and MP in some of the more unhappy places in the world. What has struck me is the blindingly obvious point that war and conflict are the result of broken politics. Over the past 15 years or so, our country has made some disastrous decisions that have left tens of millions of people in the middle east and north Africa in a very difficult position.
One middle eastern ambassador told me last week on the Foreign Affairs Committee’s trip to Iraq and Turkey, “You have to diagnose a sickness properly in order to treat its root causes. Palliative therapy is not a cure.” So what do we have in Syria and Iraq? When we think of ISIS, we think of Jihadi John, with the terrifying offering in orange in front of him, but the reality is that ISIS is mostly made up of the Sunni populations of those areas. Our challenge, if we ever want to cure this problem, is to separate those disfranchised Sunnis from what we might call core ISIS.
We have got to give the Sunni in the middle east a different choice. At the moment their choice is ISIS and security from Shi’a militias, or Shi’a militias. Of course airstrikes play their part, but to me they are much lower down the “to do” list. We must have a proper political and security strategy so that we can separate those mass populations from ISIS. Those people are ultimately our ground troops against ISIS, and until we realise that, we’re stuffed.
Last week a very senior coalition commander in Iraq told us:
“We have a military campaign. We don’t have a political one.”
Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the US are all doing their own thing. Think about that—I do not have time to go through it now.
Politicians in the Chamber this afternoon have given expert opinions on military matters, but we have come up a bit short when talking about the politics. Nevertheless, it is mainly politics that will fix this situation. The biggest thing that the United Kingdom can do right now is to use the influence that we think we do not have to talk to people seriously, so that we have a proper long-term strategy that results in a cure. Bombing can only ever be palliative. [Interruption.] I cannot take an intervention because I’m done.
Barry Gardiner
My hon. Friend is absolutely right and simply reinforces my point. I want to eradicate Daesh. Doing so requires an effective ground force that can co-ordinate with the existing allied airstrikes in Syria—airstrikes that, in the words of Lieutenant General Sir Simon Mayall, are
“not a war-winning…campaign”.
Airstrikes can create a temporary opportunity for territorial gain, but in default of a competent ground force, that opportunity is squandered—and at what cost?
The population of Raqqa who are subjugated under Daesh will not be allowed into the tunnels. They will not be whisked out of the city in armoured jeeps with Daesh commanders. They will remain in the city and wait for British bombs. All military action comes with the risk that innocent lives will be lost; I understand that. Sometimes that risk must be accepted, but only when the military and diplomatic strategy that is put forward is coherent and comprehensive and has a reasonable chance of achieving its objective. The Government’s motion does not.
The Government have argued that it makes no military sense to curtail our pilots at an arbitrary border. They correctly point out that we are already engaged in military action. That is in itself a reasonable argument about the efficient use of military resources—I accept that—but the Government cannot also try to argue that by voting against today’s motion, we are voting to do nothing. We are still engaged in Iraq, where the Kurdish peshmerga and the Iraqi army can provide a limited but credible ground force. The Government have also argued—it is a powerful argument—that in the face of a request from our allies, we should respond. Of course we should, but we should not respond by doing just anything. We should respond by doing something that is effective, and what the Government propose is not. I will vote against the motion tonight.
Finally, Mr Speaker, I applaud the fact that you have spent the entirety of this debate in the Chair. I also admire your bladder.
Alberto Costa
The hon. Gentleman said that we all want to see the end of Daesh. I invite him to join us in the Lobby to agree the motion. Our position is that airstrikes can destroy Daesh supply lines and, more importantly, the terror training facilities, which are a danger to his constituents in East Dunbartonshire, as they are to South Leicestershire and the whole United Kingdom. Why does he not support that?
John Nicolson
If bombing could destroy Daesh, surely the dozen countries that are already bombing it would have succeeded in that aim.
Without a blush, the Government, who 24 months ago wanted to bomb President Assad, now want us to bomb his enemies. As Members, we are offered ever more florid claims by Ministers and their Labour allies. Perhaps the most absurd that we have heard today is that 70,000 fighters, spread across Iraq, consisting of disparate groups and with no central command or shared vision, will march collectively thousands of miles to support a British bombing mission. It is utterly absurd, and that argument has fallen apart during today’s debate.
Let us examine whether UK bombing would make a difference, as the hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Alberto Costa) contends. I do not think so. Between August 2014 and August this year, 17,000 bombs were dropped on Iraq. Twelve countries are bombing Syria, including Russia, the United States, Canada and France. It is reported that 2,104 civilians have been killed as collateral damage in 267 separate bombing incidents in the past year alone. It is a disgrace, and further bombing will not help.
The UN envoy to Syria says that
“all evidence shows that the overwhelming majority of all the civilian victims in the Syrian conflict have been caused so far by the use of aerial weapons.”
Daesh is not a Napoleonic army standing out in the open waiting to be attacked. It wants to draw us into the conflict. It hides in civilian areas, and it uses human shields. It relies on our folly, our arrogance and our lack of cultural understanding. Dr Shuja Shafi of the Muslim Council of Britain says:
“As more innocent people die from air strikes, the appeal of Daesh will strengthen. Daesh craves more Western military intervention in the region. We urge MPs to learn lessons from the past, and not to vote for extending”
bombing. Let us not repeat the mistakes of the past. We will kill numerous civilians. We will radicalise the bereaved survivors. We have no credible peace plan in place. We are being fed ludicrous statistics, and on a wing and a prayer we are hoping for better luck this time.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
Order. I am sorry to say it, but a three-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches will now have to apply.
Mr Burrowes
That is right. The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (John Nicolson) described as a disgrace the operations that are taking place. However, it was not a disgrace to liberate Sinjar. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] The action has been effective, proportionate and is not leading to the loss of civilian lives. The grim reality, the horrors in Sinjar were revealed: the mass graves of older women who had been butchered by ISIL.
We should stand four-square behind these operations, which should be extended. Along with the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock), I wanted the motion in 2014 to go further. Like him, I recognise the important international principle of a treaty to protect people from genocide. That is what we were seeing in Iraq and Syria. The duty to authorise force extended logically both to Iraq and Syria. So I wanted us to go further then. To be consistent with the decision in 2014, I want us to extend our operations to Syria. As I said to the Prime Minister then, the genocidal actions of ISIL jihadists have no borders. We need to understand that ISIL has the same intent now as it did in 2014. The right to defend Iraqis and the right to defend our UK citizens means that there should be no border in our operations between Iraq and Syria.
We have heard many Members offer their expert opinion about the effectiveness of the operations. We must be careful that we do not become armchair—or Bench—generals. Surely we should accept the evidence from the armed forces, security services and the Joint Intelligence Committee that we have a very clear and imminent threat to our citizens, and that we have a proportionate response to it. My question to my constituents is this: if one of those seven planned attacks on the UK in the past 12 months had not been thwarted and had got through, what would I have done? I would have had to look my constituents and their families in the eye and say that we must tackle the threat by going—
Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con)
Yesterday, while preparing for this debate, I was accused by certain people on social media—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There is quite a lot of really rather disconcerting and discourteous chuntering from Members on both sides of the House, including from the Foreign Secretary, whose hon. Friend has the floor and will be heard. If Members wish to conduct an argument they will do it outside the Chamber, be they ever so high. Let us be clear about that.
Marcus Fysh
Yesterday I was accused by certain people on social media of having no care for my children and no thought for people in Syria. Nothing could be further from the truth. Our families and our children, and those families and children from the middle east and north Africa, whether in their homes or displaced, are the future of our world. We want them to play and grow without fear in that world, to see good and beauty in it, and to see the point of trying to make it better. When they ask what I did today, I want them to know that I stood up for them.
We want to make life on the ground better for people, and to protect them from indiscriminate and summary injustice. We want to allow humanity, to restore normal life and to offer better ideas. Our involvement can make a positive difference and we must not shirk it. Militarily, we can take out targets that threaten us, or those on the ground, with more precision, so saving lives. We are not bombing Syria in the way that some allege.
Diplomatically, our involvement will give us the best chance to shape efforts towards a lasting political settlement. If we want to be able to negotiate sometimes very firmly, as we should, with Russia, Iran, the Syrian establishment and our allies in the Gulf states and beyond, we have to be credible. We cannot expect to have influence with them and to shape our world if we are unwilling to use the powers we have, when asked, to make the transition to a political solution less painful than it otherwise might be.
We want the civil war in Syria to end and for hope to return. I am persuaded that there is right here, in Vienna and in our firm diplomatic strategy backed by action tonight a real chance that we can help that to happen politically. I commend what is, in fact, a comprehensive strategy to the House.
Mr Speaker
Order. Stop the clock. The hon. Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster) must be heard with courtesy. I say to one hon. Gentleman, whose loquacity has been notable today, that he is perfectly entitled to seek to intervene but he must not seek to deny the hon. Gentleman a courteous hearing. Let us be fair and decent to each other.
Kevin Foster
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I was about to say that it is always a pleasure to have an accompaniment.
Whatever comes out of the Vienna negotiations, the one solution that would be unacceptable is that Daesh should carry on to have a role in the future Government of Syria. Daesh will not be cleared out by warm words or by hopeful diplomacy. Part of the solution is a military intervention, and it is right that we should start to degrade Daesh now while we work to build up the coalition that will clear it out permanently. We cannot just say that this is too difficult.
Simon Hoare
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, as are a number of Members on all sides of the House. I agree with the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins) that there is no certainty in this. We have all come under a huge amount of pressure from constituents—90% of mine who have emailed me are opposed—but I rely on Edmund Burke, who said in 1774—[Interruption.] This is as true today as it was then—[Interruption.]
Simon Hoare
I am grateful, as long as I am not the Burke of 2015.
Burke said, “Your representative”—that is, one’s Member of Parliament—
“owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.”
We are here to exercise our judgment, and in my judgment the wording of the motion covers all the bases, all the challenges and all the tests that Members of this House have set the Prime Minister.
We are not the policemen of the world, but we find nothing splendid in isolation. What we do reflects on our values, and the value we place on our strategic and political partners. “Je suis Parisien” has to be far more than just a Twitter tag. It is time for action.
Stephen Gethins
We have not seen enough on the forward planning and the long-term planning, which is a cause for concern for me, as I know it is for other Members. We need ground troops, but we have not heard enough about how we have got them; where did the 70,000 come from? I raised this with the Foreign Secretary back in July, and this was something that we included—
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman has the Floor. It would be a courtesy if he would respect my wish that two other colleagues briefly contribute. I feel sure that he is reaching his peroration, which will not last longer than 30 seconds or so.
Stephen Gethins
In that case, Mr Speaker, let me just touch on a couple of points. We are often accused of using the tactics of the past, and the criticism is made that we are fighting the last war, rather than a current war. We do not want to do that. I give credit to Members across this House when I say that we want the same thing: to put an end to Daesh for good. It is my view that taking the same old route of bombing without a long-term strategy will lead only to failure, which is why I will back the multi-party amendment tonight.
Several hon. Members rose—
Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. May I thank you for going through all these hours of debate, and as a doctor may I say that that is not terribly healthy?
Mr Speaker
I am extremely grateful to the hon. Lady for what she has said. I take note of her health advice, but there have to be exceptions and I wanted to be here to hear every speech. I thank colleagues for what overall I must say was the remarkably decent and gracious tone that characterised the contributions over several hours.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. May I put on record that it is unlikely that any previous Speaker has ever done what you have done today: sit throughout without a single break? I think the whole House should congratulate you.
Mr Speaker
I am very flattered and honoured by what the hon. Gentleman has said. I sought no such compliment, but the hon. Gentleman first came into the House 49 years ago and he knows I hold him in the highest esteem, and I thank him for that. The credit is that of the House, however, for the way it has conducted itself today. I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman said. [Interruption.] Indeed; I will bank it while I can.