ISIL in Syria

David Burrowes Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Corbyn]

For the sake of north London geography, I shall now give way to the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes).

[Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman has maintained a consistent position in this House on airstrikes. On 26 September 2014, when he voted against airstrikes against ISIL in Iraq, he said:

“I do not believe that further air strikes and the deepening of our involvement will solve the problem.”—[Official Report, 26 September 2014; Vol. 585, c. 1332.]

Does he maintain his opposition to airstrikes in Iraq, as well as to extending them to Syria?

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I thank both Members for their interventions. My right hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) makes a serious point. We have to be careful about what will happen in the future. As the Prime Minister and others have said, we must be aware of the danger that some people, mainly young people, will become deeply radicalised and end up doing very dangerous things. Is the radicalisation of a small but significant number of young people across Europe a product of the war or of something else? We need to think very deeply about that, about what has happened in this world since 2001, and about the increasing number of people who are suffering because of that. I rest my case at that point.

There is no EU-wide strategy to provide humanitarian assistance to the victims. Perhaps most importantly of all, is the Prime Minister able to explain how British bombing in Syria will contribute to a comprehensive negotiated political settlement of the Syrian war? Such a settlement is widely accepted to be the only way to ensure the isolation and defeat of ISIL. ISIL grew out of the invasion of Iraq, and it has flourished in Syria in the chaos and horror of a multi-fronted civil war.

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[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Sir Alan Duncan), a fellow member of the Intelligence and Security Committee, although I fear that we will be in different Lobbies later this evening.

May I begin by intimating support for amendment (b), which appears in my name and those of other right hon. and hon. Members? It is signed by more than 100 Members from six different political parties from right across the House and proposes that the House

“while welcoming the renewed impetus towards peace and reconstruction in Syria, and the Government’s recognition that a comprehensive strategy against Daesh is required, does not believe that the case for the UK’s participation in the ongoing air campaign in Syria by 10 countries has been made under current circumstances, and consequently declines to authorise military action in Syria.”

I thank the Prime Minister for advance sight of his statement and for the briefings by his national security adviser, Sir Mark Lyall Grant, and colleagues from the Ministry of Defence, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Department for International Development and other agencies. I again put on the record our appreciation to all of those who are charged with keeping us safe at home and abroad. Notwithstanding the profound differences I have with the Prime Minister on the issue, I commend him for briefing parties and parliamentarians in recent weeks, and for the tone he adopted in last week’s statement.

It is disappointing, to say the least, that the Prime Minister chose to describe parliamentary opponents of his bombing plans as “terrorist sympathisers”. The amendment against bombing is signed by the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), who served with the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers in Northern Ireland. It is also signed by the hon. Member for Norwich South (Clive Lewis) of the Labour party, who served in the Territorial Army in Afghanistan, and by my hon. Friends the Members for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Dr Cameron) and for Glasgow North West (Carol Monaghan), both of whose husbands served with distinction in the armed forces. It has also been signed by Members from Northern Ireland, who have had to experience terrorism at first hand. It is totally wrong to impugn Members of this House who differ with the Government on bombing Syria as “terrorist sympathisers”.

The Prime Minister has had numerous occasions to apologise, but I fear he is not going to do so. [Interruption.] I would be prepared to give way to the Prime Minister if he wishes to apologise, but he does not and I will not give way to other hon. Members. I hope that the Prime Minister regrets what he said.

We in the Scottish National party share the concerns of everybody else in this House and the country about the terrorist threat from Daesh. We deplore the Assad regime and have regularly raised the issue of refugees in the region and in Europe. There is agreement across this House that the threat from Daesh is real and that doing nothing is not an option. However, we recall that only two years ago, this Prime Minister and this Government wanted us to bomb the opponents of Daesh, which would no doubt have strengthened it.

We have not heard this yet, but there is no shortage of countries currently bombing in Syria. Most recently, the Russians have been attacking Daesh—and, too often, the moderate opposition to Assad as well. Coalition nations that have conducted strikes in Syria include—it is a long list—Australia, Bahrain, Canada, France, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, which, incidentally, also uses the Brimstone weapon system, the Republic of Turkey, which, interestingly, is also bombing our allies in Kurdistan, the United Arab Emirates and the United States of America. Open sources confirm that since September 2014, those air strikes have involved F-16 Falcons, F-22s, F/A-18 Super Hornets, sea-launched Tomahawk cruise missiles and weapons from drones launched from above Syria. The United States central command, Centcom, confirms that the United States has conducted more than 2,700 air strikes in Syria.

Daily strike updates from the Combined Joint Task Force coalition show that military forces have continued to attack Daesh terrorists in Syria, using bombers and remotely piloted aircraft. Reports from the United States military show that, in recent days, near Ayn Issa, three strikes struck an ISIL tactical unit and destroyed an ISIL tactical vehicle; near Raqqa, two strikes struck two separate ISIL tactical units and destroyed ISIL vehicles; near Deir ez-Zor, one strike destroyed an ISIL vehicle; and, near al-Hawl, two strikes struck an ISIL tactical unit and destroyed an ISIL checkpoint. The point is that bombing is currently under way in Syria and to pretend that it is not already taking place is highly misleading.

[Mr Burrowes]

Does the right hon. Gentleman think there is a legitimate case for our allies’ operations in Syria, or does he want them to withdraw?

[Angus Robertson]

I am hugely supportive of efforts that can lead to stabilisation in Iraq. That is very important, but I want to stress one thing in particular: we have a particular responsibility towards the Kurds, both in Iraq and in Syria. I wish that the Prime Minister, when dealing with NATO allies, would use his good offices to say that we should not undermine their efforts in Iraq and in Syria.

[Mr Burrowes]

Answer the question.

[Angus Robertson]

I have answered the hon. Gentleman’s question. We should ensure that Turkey does not bomb our Kurdish allies, and we should do everything we can to address that.

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[Alex Salmond]

I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman the number of times I have heard the argument about minimising the civilian casualties from a bombing campaign. I bow to no one on the skill of our pilots and the sophistication of weapons, but if he actually believes we are going to engage in a bombing campaign in a concentrated urban area such as Raqqa without there being civilian casualties, he is living on a different planet. As the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden said, there is no conceivable balance of difference that we are going to make to the campaign in Syria.

The Prime Minister said that we must not be haunted or hamstrung by past mistakes, by which he meant the war in Iraq. I am more interested in far more recent mistakes in terms of this House and its decision making and this Government and their decision making. First, we had last night’s mistake of describing opponents of the Government’s action as “terrorist sympathisers”. A hugely demeaning thing for a Prime Minister to do when he should be engaged in attempting to unite the country is to concentrate on accentuating divisions within the Labour party. Goodness knows, I have spent a lifetime in politics attacking the Labour party and replacing it, but I have not attacked its divisions on this issue because this is a matter of war and peace—it is about sending people into conflict. For a Prime Minister to demean himself in that way indicates that although he might be successful in dividing the Labour party, he will fail in uniting the country, and he should have apologised when given ample opportunity to do so.

The right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), the Chair of the Defence Committee, reminded us in his speech that only two years ago the same Prime Minister came to this House asking to bomb the other side in the Syrian civil war. That can be called many things by right hon. and hon. Members but it is not the sign of a coherent military or political strategy. Another mistake, which is less thought of, was spending 13 times as much on bombing Libya as we did on reconstructing that country after the carnage, and the total disarray and dysfunction of society that resulted.

[Mr Burrowes]

Let us bring this on to more recent history. On 26 September 2014, the SNP’s parliamentary leader, the right hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) voted against the bombing of ISIL in Iraq. Would the right hon. Gentleman have joined in that position? Does he maintain the opposition to operations in Iraq against ISIL?

[Alex Salmond]

The SNP has been demonstrated to be correct, not least in Iraq, in being cautious about military interventions. The difficulty is that once we get in, it is hugely difficult to get out. What I will concede to the hon. Gentleman now is that there is in one part of Iraq a logical reason for having an assisted bombing campaign, whether by the US or by the 10% contribution of the UK; the peshmerga forces on the ground, probably our only reliable ally across the region, have had some success in pushing back Daesh. The Prime Minister referred to that earlier, but he did not develop the argument in response to my question about why we do not accent our action in Iraq as opposed to diverting to Syria. What he did not address was the second part of the question I asked at closed security briefings: why have we not given the peshmerga heavy armour and heavy weapons, and why do they have to dominate the road between Mosul and Raqqa using only machine guns? I suspect that the answer—I was not given the true answer—is because it would offend our NATO allies in Turkey, who spend as much time, if not more, bombing our allies in the Kurds than they do in pursuing the campaign against Daesh.

The hon. Member for South West Devon wanted something to be done, so we must consider what can be done. First, if we as a western liberal democracy cannot pursue a successful campaign of propaganda against a death cult, we should have a very good look at ourselves. I accept that, at last, we have made progress in calling these people for what they are. Daesh is a mocking term that mocks their claims to be a state and to represent the great religion of Islam. Much, much more can be done in carrying that forward. Infinitely more can be done by interrupting and dislocating the internet strategy that they pursue. For one of our fast smart bombs, we could have a whole squadron of people taking down their websites and stopping the communication and the contamination of the minds of young people across western Europe, and across the rest of the world.

I very much agree with the leader of the Labour party that, above all, we need to interrupt the financial resources of Daesh without which this evil cult could not function. Whenever I ask the Prime Minister about that, he tells me that he is sitting on a Committee. For two years, we have heard nothing. Little or nothing has been done to interrupt the flow of funds and to identify and stop the financial institutions without which Daesh could not have lifted a finger against us or anyone else.

Finally, we are being asked to intervene in a bloody civil war of huge complexity without an exit strategy and no reasonable means of saying that we are going to make a difference. We should not give the Prime Minister that permission.

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[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

I will not dwell on any sense of resentment that the Social Democratic and Labour party might have about the Prime Minister’s line about terrorist sympathisers, but I will say that I think it was unworthy and that it warranted an apology in this debate. However, today is not about any personal offence that Members of this House might feel; it is about the real fears and threats and the dire suffering faced by people in Syria and the concern that so many hon. Members have expressed for the safety and security of our constituents.

People in Syria, as we know, are caught between the barrel bombs of Assad and the barbarism of Daesh, and they struggle to reach the barbed wire now going up in Europe. Yes, their plight demands a comprehensive strategy and compels a much stronger response from this Government and others across Europe. The Prime Minister has told us that he is offering a comprehensive strategy. He told us in his opening statement today that he has listened to many of the considerations and concerns raised by hon. Members, and in effect he has collated them and co-opted them in the rolling references we now see in the motion, which is presented as a comprehensive strategy. I do not believe that it is coherent or complete. It do not believe that it is convincing in the collateral considerations and claims that are or are not addressed. I do not believe that it is cohesive in how its different dimensions meet and join.

Like the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng), I think that it is right that we test the logic of what we are hearing on both sides of the debate. I am not among those who, in arguing against the motion, claim that airstrikes will increase the risk of a terrorist attack in any constituency in the near term; I do not think that it makes a difference one way or another to a threat that is real and live. However, I think that there is a severe risk of feeding what we are trying to fight—of feeding a wider agenda of radicalisation—by agreeing to airstrikes and so adopting the role that the jihadism playbook craves us to adopt.

We are told that we should agree to airstrikes in Syria because they are merely an extension of what is already happening. The people who tell us that are the same people who tell us that there is no danger of mission creep in what the Government propose, yet there has already been an absolute mission flip. Only two years ago the idea was to go in and airstrike against Assad, and now it is to go in and airstrike against the very people we would have been assisting had we conducted airstrikes two years ago.

[Mr Burrowes]

What feeds the terrorists’ agenda is territory, and the more territory they gain, the bigger their so-called caliphate becomes and the greater their ability to recruit other jihadists, including from this country. The fact that we have been able to reduce that territory—we have regained 30%—has degraded their ability to radicalise other jihadists.

[Mark Durkan]

But let us remember that their concept of the caliphate is not merely geographical; it is an altogether different concept.

There is a danger of western powers piling in because we think that what is proposed is merely an extension of what we are already doing. It has been argued that we should not recognise the border between Iraq and Syria because ISIL does not recognise it, so is ISIL to dictate the terms by which judgments are made? We should not be taking our standards from Daesh.

It has also been argued that we have to take such action to stand by our allies. Does that mean that this House will have to agree to the next thing our allies do? What about ground troops, for instance? Many hon. Members who support airstrikes have been very clear that they would not agree to the deployment of ground forces. Indeed, we are told that one of the merits of the motion is that it contains no commitment to ground forces. What if people say that that is what is required? What if the operational circumstances and exigencies of the conflict are such that ground forces are required, because the 70,000 Free Syrian Army people are not there? They cannot be provided by CGI. What if everybody agrees that ground forces are needed to achieve what the Government want in Raqqa?

What happens when Assad decides that he is moving into Raqqa, supported by Russia? We will then have a conflict within the alliance itself, because what the Government propose is on the basis of a shifting alliance with some very shifty allies, including some who have been the syndicators of terrorism, powers and personages within the Gulf states. Members should question what Turkey has been doing in relation to oil and arms and Daesh; question what Saudi Arabia has been doing, and they are our allies. When the Government’s mission changes, where will we go? We will have mission creep.

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[Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)]

We can often have too partial a view of parliamentary history when dealing with issues of military intervention. I believe the relevant history is not so much the votes on Iraq in 2003, but those on Iraq in 2014. The motion on 26 September 2014 was agreed by a majority of 491, so should we now be extending it and extending RAF operations from Iraq to Syria?

It should not surprise us that my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) opposes the extension to Syria, because he opposed the motion on operations in Iraq. The same is true of the hon. Members for Newport West (Paul Flynn) and for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey), the right hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) and the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), who have all spoken against today and all voted against operations in Iraq. It particularly should not surprise us that the Leader of the Opposition, the right hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), opposes extending operations to Syria, because not only did he oppose that September 2014 motion, but he was a teller in the No Lobby. He made it very clear then, as I am sure he would have done if he had had more of an opportunity to respond to my intervention, that he, seemingly in principle, opposed the operations in Iraq.

By implication, that means that those Members do not support what has been happening in Iraq, doing good there and regaining 30% of the territory held by Daesh. They are going against the context of our operations in Iraq. I remind the House that those operations sought to go to the aid of Iraq and support people’s right to defend themselves. We were seeking to support them in their efforts to defend themselves against those ISIL genocidal jihadists who were going against Muslims, Christians and Yazidis. We should not forget that context, because that is what led us to vote in favour of action by such an overwhelming majority. The history behind this vote is as much about Kosovo in 1998 as it is about Iraq in 2003. When we look at the liberation of Sinjar, which was brought about because of the support of RAF pilots and our allies, we should remember that it was opposed by the Leader of the Opposition. We saw the horrors of Sinjar.

[Mr Robin Walker]

My hon. Friend is making some powerful points. Does he agree that crucial in our intervention in Iraq to date has been the fact that there have not been civilian casualties from the RAF action? That shows that we have the capability to take incisive action against terrorist targets without putting civilian lives at risk.

[Mr Burrowes]

That is right. The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (John Nicolson) described as a disgrace the operations that are taking place. However, it was not a disgrace to liberate Sinjar. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] The action has been effective, proportionate and is not leading to the loss of civilian lives. The grim reality, the horrors in Sinjar were revealed: the mass graves of older women who had been butchered by ISIL.

We should stand four-square behind these operations, which should be extended. Along with the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock), I wanted the motion in 2014 to go further. Like him, I recognise the important international principle of a treaty to protect people from genocide. That is what we were seeing in Iraq and Syria. The duty to authorise force extended logically both to Iraq and Syria. So I wanted us to go further then. To be consistent with the decision in 2014, I want us to extend our operations to Syria. As I said to the Prime Minister then, the genocidal actions of ISIL jihadists have no borders. We need to understand that ISIL has the same intent now as it did in 2014. The right to defend Iraqis and the right to defend our UK citizens means that there should be no border in our operations between Iraq and Syria.

We have heard many Members offer their expert opinion about the effectiveness of the operations. We must be careful that we do not become armchair—or Bench—generals. Surely we should accept the evidence from the armed forces, security services and the Joint Intelligence Committee that we have a very clear and imminent threat to our citizens, and that we have a proportionate response to it. My question to my constituents is this: if one of those seven planned attacks on the UK in the past 12 months had not been thwarted and had got through, what would I have done? I would have had to look my constituents and their families in the eye and say that we must tackle the threat by going—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I call Ruth Smeeth.