Financial Services Bill

Sheila Gilmore Excerpts

Monday 23rd April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Lorely Burt]

I agree that the companies that spend money on unsolicited calls to people who may have a financial problem are the ones that need to make the most profit, to cover the cost of doing so. However, responsibility for debt management is moving to the new FCA, and new guidelines are being issued. As long as those guidelines are strong and properly enforced, part of the market may still be able to benefit from providing debt management advice.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Lady consider the fact that it is not necessarily about whether there are charges so much as it is about who pays them? The intention behind the new clause is to protect consumers from being the ones who pay. Is it not possible that debt management companies can find another way of funding their work rather than having consumers pay the price?

[Lorely Burt]

That should ideally be the situation, and when the new regulations are produced there should be a careful consideration of whether any up-front fees should be paid to debt management companies.

New clause 10 would require mortgage lenders to inform existing customers about potential interest rate changes. I have to declare an interest: I was a mortgage adviser in one of my past lives, so I know a little bit about the matter, and I suggest that any reputable mortgage company should do that anyway. It is not in their interests to encourage people to take on mortgages that they will not be able to repay should financial circumstances worsen. The new clause may therefore be superfluous. I completely understand and appreciate the sentiment behind it, but the matter will probably fall within the FCA rules and within the ethical behaviour that one should expect from any mortgage lender.

--- Later in debate ---

[Neil Parish]

Yes, I do. Many people in the banking sector would probably disagree, but I believe that anything over 50% is far too high. It is obscene and immoral to allow companies to go on charging vast amounts of interest—I do not care who they are—and that is why we have to take action. I am looking to the Government to do so, not only through legislation but through stating that such companies should clearly set out their rates of interest and the consequences of non-repayment, so that our constituents can take advantage of credit that is competitive and that will not ruin them.

[Sheila Gilmore]

In speaking to the new clauses and amendments in this group, the Minister appeared to say that many of them were unnecessary because the issues would be dealt with through the setting up of the Financial Conduct Authority. However, it is our role as parliamentarians to take up these issues, to state explicitly that we need to give political guidance on the matters that our constituents find important, and to discuss the work that needs to be done by the FCA. There is no reason why these measures should not be incorporated into the Bill. That is surely better than waiting for four or five years, only to discover that the problems have not been addressed because the means of doing so had not been set out as clearly as they might have been. I hope that the Government will therefore reconsider their position on this.

I am surprised at the way in which the Minister dealt with amendment 55. His objection to its proposals on legal aid and legal advice seemed to be that they would undermine the provisions of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Perhaps I have got this wrong, but I had understood that the justification for restricting legal aid was a financial one. We have been given the usual argument that the country is in a financial mess, we have a deficit and we have to save money on the legal aid bill, among many other things. It is therefore disappointing, when someone comes up with another way of financing legal advice for complicated cases, that that is not acceptable either. The Government therefore seem to be suggesting that granting legal aid in such cases is, in itself, a bad thing.

After all, we are not stopping litigation, and we are not preventing people with plenty of money from litigating on any issues. The ending of legal aid will simply result in considerable detriment for people who do not have the money to pay for their legal advice. It is regrettable to say that the proposals would somehow undermine the Government’s intentions. When we were debating the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, various speakers on the Government Benches said, “We would like to do these things, if we had a way of funding them.” They were not saying, “We really do not want to do these things at all.” They seemed to be saying that the measures were being brought in with some sadness, so when someone comes up with a partial solution, it is a shame that we cannot investigate it further.

Amendment 37 seeks to make it explicit that the work of the Money Advice Service should be to help those with the greatest problems who are suffering particular difficulties as a result of financial exclusion. The previous Government tried to address those problems through various formats. The present Government are suggesting that this will be done anyway, and that the service will be the same for everybody. However, that assumes that everyone is starting off on the same footing, which is not the case. Many people have limited choices and are therefore more likely to get into financial difficulties. The Money Advice Service should be giving those people a specific amount of its attention, and to spell that out in the Bill would not be unreasonable.

I listened to what the hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) said about the phasing out of debt management companies. We are not saying that such companies that operate on a commercial basis should disappear. The amendment suggests that it should not be the individual consumer who pays the up-front price for those services. There are alternatives, and some commercial companies could continue to operate if the financial organisations were to foot the bill. We shall be seeking to achieve that.

Finally, I want to say how important it has been that people have campaigned on these issues; for example, my hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) has campaigned hard on debt management companies, while my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) has campaigned on high-cost credit. We are now some considerable time on from when we had a big debate in this place, with many Members attending and speaking on these issues, yet we are so little further forward.

If we look at the wording of amendment 40, it makes no specific pitch for a particular cap or how exactly to achieve the aim; it simply asks the FCA to make the rule. Further discussion and consultation will be necessary about what those rules should be, but the amendment asks the FCA to make this an important and early part of the work it does. I do not view that as at all unreasonable.

The alternatives proposed are not good enough. Financial education is fine, but when facing a difficult situation, no amount of financial education is good enough when there is so little choice. Sometimes regulation and financial education are proposed as alternatives, but I do not think they are. It would be great if people were better financially educated, but in a tight spot, that is not enough.

[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

One of my constituents wrote to me to say that he thought he had had a particularly good deal because the APR was at 5,200%. He thought that that was better than what the banks were offering, which was obviously just a two-digit figure. Does that not show that financial education is something that this Government need to take on board, because it shows how people get into debt when they do not understand the ramifications of those high interest rates?

[Sheila Gilmore]

I think financial education is extremely important, but on its own, it will not necessarily equip people to avoid the enticements of the lenders.

[Justin Tomlinson]

I cannot resist intervening on this specific point. With financial education, consumers can make informed decisions. If people are financially savvy and well financially educated, they can carry out the actions that they would otherwise have to pay a debt management company to do.

[Sheila Gilmore]

That is indeed the case. I am not suggesting that we should not have financial education. What I am suggesting is that we also need regulation. My hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow eloquently outlined the various forms that high-cost credit takes, so control over it is also important.

[Stella Creasy]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. Much as I support a good deal of what the hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) said, I think he misunderstands the situation. Many of my constituents have tried to negotiate, but these companies will not respond to constituents individually as they do not recognise individuals in the negotiation of credit plans, so it is often organisations that have a status—a citizens advice bureau or Christians Against Poverty, for example—who are able to make the breakthrough. That is why these debt management companies are so invidious. They claim the same status as Christians Against Poverty and the citizens advice bureaux, so it is not just a case of being financially savvy; it is also about the having the muscle of a respected organisation behind people. That can cause some of the problems.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I thank my hon. Friend for that important point of view.

If we do not take steps to deal with high-cost credit, we will do many people a disservice. I urge the Minister, even at this stage, to support amendment 40. It does not lay down a set of rules, but merely asks the FCA to make the rules an important priority. In order to protect people who will often feel that they have little choice but to use this sort of lending, we need to have controls in place.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to the debate and to speak to the amendments. I welcome the Financial Secretary’s opening statement on the establishment of the Financial Conduct Authority, and the development away from the Financial Services Authority and the tick-box approach it adopted under the structure set up by the former Administration, which contributed to failures and had a harmful impact on many families and individuals. That is relevant to the responsibilities that the FCA will inherit. We shall now be able to secure an appropriate degree of protection; to promote choice and competition, which are regulatory concerns within the industry; and to protect and enhance the integrity of the UK financial system.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Leslie]

It is entirely hypothetical. Of course we cannot do that at this stage, but there might be circumstances. I will remember the hon. Gentleman’s intervention for the many years that he will be in Parliament for when the time comes, if it comes, that he disagrees with a particular outcome of a regulation as it affects his constituents.

Amendment 35 talks about the impact of many of the changes within the regulatory system on consumers, particularly those on lower incomes. We believe that the FCA should have enshrined in its objectives a commitment to consider how easily consumers are able to find products that are appropriate to their income, and more broadly, products that provide value for money. In difficult times as incomes are squeezed it is right that consumers feel that they have a regulator that is on their side. If we are creating a genuine consumer champion in the FCA, it is important that it has a set of objectives and values that reflect that, particularly for those on the lowest income. It is a similar argument to that made in the previous group of amendments in respect of the Money Advice Service. We have seen excessive overdraft charges, high interest rates, and charges for hidden services. Those require a genuine consumer champion and this amendment would help to create that.

Amendment 36 would also shift the balance in favour of the consumer. It would introduce what is known as a fiduciary duty of care by authorised persons, by financial services providers, towards the consumers who are their clients. “Fiduciary” means holding in trust, holding in good faith, a concept that would help to rebuild confidence among the public in financial services. There is a serious lack of trust at present that is bad for consumers, providers and society at large. The Bill contains no explicit obligation on firms to avoid conflicts of interest, nor to profit at consumers’ expense without their knowledge and consent, nor to have undivided loyalties and duties of confidentiality to the customer. The pre-legislative scrutiny Committee commented on many of these aspects and recommended that some action be taken. Although the FSA has recently had its treating customers fairly initiative, we do not think that that is enough. We believe that a fiduciary duty of care is necessary, especially in the light of some of the major concerns of mis-selling scandals and the need to learn lessons from those.

Amendments 33 and 34 relate to the costs and expense of establishing the FCA and PRA, splitting the FSA into those component parts. I apologise for rattling through these. We have to minimise unnecessary additional expenses incurred, because ultimately the consumers will pay. The FSA’s budget for 2013-14 has gone up by 15.6%. I accept that the new regulatory system will have some costs involved in that, but the majority of those costs are operational and not necessarily related to the principles of regulation involved. It was a bit of a joke to see in the White Paper the Government say that the running costs under the new arrangements should not be “materially different” in real terms and aggregate from the current FSA. That will not happen. We are talking about extremely significant extra costs.

We suggest that the memorandum between these organisations should contain an estimate of the annual costs involved in administering the FCA and PRA, and compare those to the estimated costs of the administration of the FSA. That is a bit of a crude way of getting a cost comparator, but I would be interested in seeing it. Similarly, amendment 34 talks about minimising the

“unnecessary additional expenses that might be incurred by virtue of the separate administration of the FCA and the PRA, and to maximise any common administrative savings achievable through close co-ordination.”

The PRA is moving to plush offices in Moorgate, leaving vacant space at Canary Wharf, a lease that expires way down the line in 2018. There is a sense in which there is a bit of empire building going on at the Bank of England, which will be responsible for the PRA. The Threadneedle street empire is growing strongly.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Will my hon. Friend also give some thought to those organisations that will be dual regulated and the additional costs that might be incurred?

[Chris Leslie]

That is why it is important that at the very least they have information, and some level of accountability, about the likely costs of this tangle of regulatory structures for them. The Association of British Insurers has voiced its concerns about the costs of the new regulatory system and it is important that we at least know from the Minister exactly what those costs will be. He skirted around the issue in Committee. Even when I asked the cost of the new building for the PRA next to Threadneedle street he said that that might be commercial in confidence. If he can help us with that I will be grateful.

The hon. Member for Chichester also spoke about publication of the minutes of the Bank of England’s court of directors. Amendment 27 seeks to introduce exactly the same for the FCA. If the FCA is to be a consumer champion, at the very least consumers should be able to see what is being discussed, who—potentially—is discussing it and, most importantly, what the nature is of the dialectic and discussions going on in its board. The Financial Secretary said in Committee that that will be a matter for the FCA, even though he could not really argue against the transparency principle, but he did promise that he would think about it. I saw a chink of light at the time and thought that publication of the FCA’s minutes was a simple concession that we might get in the Bill. I hope that he has had a chance to reflect on that.

Amendment 39 relates to the relationship between the new regulators and the European supervisory arrangements. We might think that all these decisions on regulating credit, businesses and financial services are for us to take domestically in the UK, but I am afraid that 80% of the regulatory decisions are in fact taken in Brussels by the European Commission. Commissioner Barnier has his pipeline of proposals, which is very much the driving force behind the regulatory arrangements. Some of those are good changes, but nevertheless many people feel that the UK’s domestic regulators are there merely to transpose what is decided further up the chain, and that is of concern. Therefore, we want the regulators to be fit for purpose and able properly to influence and steer some of the policy decisions that are taken in Brussels.