Sentencing Bill

Sally Jameson Excerpts

Committee of the whole House
Tuesday 21st October 2025 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

I oppose the whole idea of forcing courts to give suspended sentences when they should be sending offenders to prison. We all know that it is hard to get sent to prison in the first place, and judges and magistrates do not send people to prison lightly. In fact, they do not send people to prison enough, as far as I can see, so it is extremely worrying that we are to force them to send even fewer people to prison. My amendments seek to address this issue.

We cannot make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear, so it will not be possible to transform this disastrous Bill into a good one—all we can seek to do today is make it less bad. Hon. Members should be under no illusion: the Bill takes a sledgehammer to our justice system, and will dismantle law and order in this country. To call the Bill a “sentencing” Bill makes a mockery of us all. It should be called the “avoid a sentence” Bill, because it is a slap in the face to victims and will embolden offenders, who will quite literally be laughing all the way to their next crime.

Let me put on record my support for amendments in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Dr Mullan) and the hon. Member for Clacton (Nigel Farage), particularly in relation to the abolition of the Sentencing Council and the deportation of foreign criminals, but because of time constraints I will speak only to those amendments tabled in my name.

[Sally Jameson (Doncaster Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

The right hon. Lady suggests that the Bill will bring law and order into question, but as a former prison officer I would say it was the previous Government running our prison system to a boiling point that nearly brought law and order crashing down, with fewer than 100 bed spaces available last summer. It might be poignant for Conservative Members to reflect a little during the debate on what they did to His Majesty’s Prison Service while they were in office—and while I was serving.

[Esther McVey]

I thank the hon. Lady for making that point, although I would point out that under the last Government three prisons were built—HMP Five Wells, HMP Fosse Way and HMP Millsike—which added an extra 8,500 places. Three further prisons will also be built.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir John Hayes]

I do agree with my hon. Friend.

Just stepping back a moment, Ms Ghani, I am mindful that the only female Speaker we have ever had once famously declared, “Call me Madam”, so I will from now on call you Madam Chairman rather than anything else.

It is certainly true that we need a war against drugs, drug dealing and all the effects of drugs, but it would be quite wrong to separate that from the public desire to see people who do bad things dealt with appropriately. When those bad things are at their extreme, and as my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton pointed out, we are speaking of extremes—acts of violence against women, minors and, let us face it, men—they need to be dealt with with severity. There is nothing wrong with saying that because it is what most people intuitively feel, and it is right that they do. Grotius, the jurist, once said that criminal justice was about

“the infliction of an ill suffered for an ill done”,

and that sense that the punishment must fit the crime rings true now, as it did when he made that observation.

The Minister needs to explain whether the Bill is about practicalities or principle. I have yet to determine which position the Government have taken.

[Sally Jameson]

I just want to highlight the fact that it is possible to believe that offenders need to be punished, as I do—when I was an officer, I was part of delivering that punishment—and simultaneously that rehabilitation should be a part of the prison system. While I agree with the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Dr Mullan) that some offenders are not ready to begin the rehabilitation journey, that does not mean that we should not stand ready to provide it for those who are ready, as it ultimately drives down reoffending and reduces the number of victims, which should be at the heart of everything we do. Punishment and rehabilitation need to work hand in hand.

Sentencing Bill

Sally Jameson Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 16th September 2025 Commons Chamber

[Sally Jameson (Doncaster Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

I declare the interest that, as a former prison officer, I am still a member of the Prison Officers’ Association. Having served as a Justice Parliamentary Private Secretary until only last week, this is the first time I have been able to speak on these departmental matters in the Chamber since I was elected. I want to use this opportunity to pay tribute to my friends and former colleagues at His Majesty’s Prison and Young Offender Institution Moorland who I served with prior to the general election. They are some of the bravest and most dedicated people I have ever known and, as only the second prison officer ever elected to this place, I want to use my time on these Benches to ensure that their voices are heard.

I want to acknowledge the work done by the former Lord Chancellor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood), and the former Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Sir Nicholas Dakin), as well as the Minister for Prisons, Probation and Reducing Reoffending in the other place, for all they have done to get us to today. I wish the very best of luck to the new Minister and the new Lord Chancellor in their roles.

I am proud that this Government have had the backbone to take the bold but necessary steps to reform our sentencing and justice systems in this country. Context in this debate is incredibly important, because over the last year I have heard the shadow Front Benchers criticise this Government month after month, and it has been, frankly, galling—the sheer audacity of them sitting there with their faux outrage, knowing what they have done. The Conservatives nearly brought our prison system to the point of collapse; it is frankly beyond comprehension. Under them, we saw huge rises in violence, self-harm, drug abuse, overcrowding and an abject failure to build the spaces we needed. Rather than deal with that crisis, rather than face up to the challenge, they called a general election. This dereliction of duty is not something we can shrug off or pass over because they are not in power any more. Catastrophic handling on that scale means that they should be held accountable. Their decision making, or lack of it, has put the safety of our prison estate in huge jeopardy and has had real-life and horrific consequences for staff and prisoners. I for one will not forget their legacy, and I will not allow anyone else to forget it either.

I want to shine a light on the additional measures in the Bill that are focused on victims, who must always be at the centre of our thinking when discussing the justice system: creating new restriction zones, limiting the movement of offenders, better identifying perpetrators of domestic abuse and creating a defined category that can be used to better manage domestic abuse perpetrators, both in custody and on release. I hope that that package of strengthened rights for victims will, along with all the other measures, be an important step forward in the journey towards ensuring that their rights are respected and their voices heard.

I am also pleased that the legislation recognises that prisoner behaviour should dictate whether they are released as part of the earned progression model. Although it is important that we are able to manage population numbers, it should not come at the detriment of support for good behaviour and punishment for bad. The additional powers to extend the number of days added at adjudication level are important. I am keen to explore in more detail with the Minister how we can use and improve the adjudication system to enforce that. I am sure he will be pleased to hear that, as a trained adjudication liaison officer myself, I have many views on how to strengthen the system so that prisoners who are violent—they are, frankly, the chief trouble-causers—face maximum penalties, and we capture those who should not benefit from the earned progression model. I ask Ministers to consult operationally experienced voices at every level of implementation to ensure maximum impact in that area.

I am aware that there is limited time and many colleagues wish to speak, so I will not go into further detail on the Bill. These reforms are not just about cutting prisoner numbers—we will have more prisoners at the end of this Parliament than we had in the previous one—but about making our prison system safer and more manageable, and, in doing so, giving prisons space to focus once again on rehabilitation, reducing reoffending and driving down the number of victims.

I hope that the success of the Bill will mean that, in time, we are able to place extra focus on supporting groups of people who are often over-represented in the prison system—not least care leavers. It is estimated that 52% of young offenders and 29% of the overall prison population are care-experienced. That is not something that we as a society can accept; change must come. I hope that reforms in the legislation will allow the space for that to happen over time.

We must ensure that our prisons are safer for prison staff, we must drive down reoffending rates to protect victims, and we must recognise that the previous Government’s approach did not work. These reforms are bold, yes, but they are long, long overdue. I congratulate the Government on taking the first steps towards getting a grip of our prisons and wider criminal justice system so that we never again find the system on the point of collapse.

Victims and Courts Bill (First sitting)

Sally Jameson Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 17th June 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Caroline Voaden]

Q It sounds like quite a lot of work to do behind the scenes to make this function properly.

Genna Telfer: Yes, absolutely.

[Sally Jameson (Doncaster Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q Before I ask my question, I declare my interest as a member of the Prison Officers Association, a former POA branch chair, and a former prison officer at the rank of SO trained in control and restraint, PAVA and SPEAR.

I want to ask a specific question on the Opposition amendment on restraint and gagging in court. I understand the Government’s position, allowing reasonable force at the judge’s discretion. As you will know from policing history, the use of force is on a spectrum from minimal right up to the top end. I have never heard of being able to gag. It is certainly not a technique that is used in the Prison Service; it is not in the “Use of force” manual and it is not part of the training. Were the Opposition amendment to be made, how would you suggest that it be done? What do you think the impact on the courtroom more widely would be if we were to take forward gagging? Do you believe it is even legal under current rules?

Genna Telfer: Obviously it is not something we are trained in, or something we do, so there would be a whole training implication. We do use spit hoods—that is probably as close to that that we get, in terms of putting something over someone’s head, but that does not affect sound and even those are quite controversial, so they are used quite sparingly. It is difficult, because if we did not do that, we are back to the disruption point and potentially removing people straightaway for contempt of court.

On the legality, I do not know—it is something that we would have to have a look into. If it were agreed, it would need to be checked whether it was legal, and then there would be a whole range of training. But that is not something policing would do; it would be the Prison Service involved in that, rather than us.

I can talk about my own experience. I was an officer safety trainer, so I have quite a lot of knowledge and, again, that would be really difficult to do. We use leg restraints, handcuffs and things, but to restrain someone effectively and to gag them to move them into a courtroom, I think would be really challenging.

Clare Moody: I go back to the point that I was making earlier about not making this a theatre show. I think that would somehow make it a spectacle, and it puts the perpetrator at the centre of all the attention. As I said earlier, this is about justice for the victims, and I think that there would be real problems with that. Adding to the points that Genna made about the practicalities of it, making a show of it, or making theatre in the courtroom, I do not think is the appropriate thing to do.

[Jack Rankin]

Q To pick up on this theme, Assistant Chief Constable, the police show all the time that it is possible to move and restrain people legally, do they not?

Genna Telfer: Yes.

Victims and Courts Bill (Second sitting)

Sally Jameson Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 17th June 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Tristan Osborne]

Q I have two questions. First, is it correct to say that your officers in court settings are not trained to gag prisoners or to engage in restraint of prisoners to present them before the court? Would it require wholesale retraining of officers in the system to engage in that change of behaviour?

My second question is about restriction zones. We are pivoting away from exclusion zones to restriction zones, which is giving more focus to victims. Do you think the monitoring is in place for the Probation Service to be able to manage that change of approach, to ensure that there is a pivot away from the rights of the perpetrator to the rights of the victim?

Chris Jennings: Maybe I should pick up the first question. Depending on how a perpetrator appears before the court—whether they are beaming in from prison via video link or attending in person at court—there are different responsibilities in terms of who undertakes the potential restraint of the prisoner. If we deliver somebody to court, court officers take custody of that person and look after them in the dock. I am less able to speak about the skills of the court staff, because it was many years ago that I worked in the court service and I do not feel up to date.

If you are in prison and beaming in via video link, I guess—to an earlier question—it would be possible to train prison officers who are already skilled in some forms of control and restraint in a different way. My instinct would be, although I am not perfectly qualified, that for court staff that would be quite a leap.

Kim Thornden-Edwards: On your second question about a switch from exclusion zones to restriction zones, we are currently working through the finer detail of that policy change and its impact and implications. We will take stock and determine what policy change is required to enable staff to make the change, what practice and operational guidance and instructions will be required, and what training element will be required, should that be necessary. We will be working through all those potential implications to this change. Our staff are very well versed in exclusion zones and understanding those. I am confident that they will be able to understand the change in emphasis and what some of the implications are, and will be able to bring the necessary degree of professionalism, integrity and foresight to those arrangements.

Chris Jennings: Our relationship with the police will be key, too. We work closely in partnership with them on these sorts of things. That will be required during this change, too, to maintain those close operational relationships on the frontline.

[Sally Jameson (Doncaster Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q I have already declared my interests but, for the purpose of the panel, I am a member of the Prison Officers’ Association and a former officer at rank of SO, and I am trained in all the relevant uses of force.

I want to come back to the point about compelling attendance at sentencing hearings. The Government’s Bill states that a relevant officer may,

“for the purpose of delivering the offender to the courtroom, use reasonable force, if necessary and proportionate.”

That is in relation to the existing use of force policy framework and the relevant Prison Service orders that apply to it. Do you agree that, when you look at the use of force framework, the words “necessary”, “proportionate” and “reasonable” relate to the whole spectrum of use of force, from the very lowest level, such as a guiding hold, right to the top level, and therefore the word “restraint” in the amendment tabled by the official Opposition does not detail what existing restraint would be used that is not already covered in the current policy framework?

My second question is this. I have never heard or seen gagging in any Prison Service policy, so from your operational experience, what implement would you suggest would be used for gagging and how would it be applied?

Chris Jennings: In reverse order, that is well beyond my area of expertise, because, as you rightly identify, that is not something that is in use in the service at the moment. Perhaps, in some unfortunate hostage situations, other prisoners may deploy such techniques, but not our staff, so I am not qualified to offer a perspective on what sort of equipment may or may not be appropriate.

On your first question, again, I am not an expert on use of force—I have not done the jobs you have done to get to the role I am in now—but I think that the description you gave of the policy is accurate. That way that you described it is what it means at every level; that would be my interpretation.

[Ruth Jones (Newport West and Islwyn) (Lab)]

Q Thank you both for coming before the Committee. You were both quite upbeat about the ability of the Probation Service to deal with the changes, which is great, but when I have talked to probation officers in Wales, they have said that they find their caseload extremely challenging and there are issues with covering the workload they have already. You have talked about geography and how different areas have different abilities. How are you going to manage the measures in the Bill in order that you can deliver the victim contact scheme and victims helpline, but also ensure that victims feel that they are at the centre of the Bill?

Chris Jennings: I was the director in Wales for four and a half years, until 18 months ago, so I know working in Wales quite well. It is one of the better staffed areas, despite colleagues’ perspectives to you being right; there will be some carrying heavy workloads, I am sure. The distinction is between the probation officer caseload and what we ask VLOs to do. They are not the same thing. As Kim described, they are ringfenced activities. There is obviously communication between the two sets of staff, but they are not the same thing.

The overall probation caseload in some areas is definitely something that we are more worried about, but not as it pertains particularly to the VLOs. That is why we are perhaps reasonably upbeat about it. It is not one of the areas that we are under most pressure on, so I think we will be able to absorb it. There will be some national things, such as the helpline and ensuring that we resource that on a national basis. My national team have a key role to play in providing the training, support and guidance to VLOs out there.

Switching my hat back to my other day job, operationally, between me and my regional probation directors, we will have to ensure that we are paying full attention to implementing the Bill well, given how crucial it is to confidence in the justice system and making sure that we are providing the support that victims deserve. I do feel confident about our ability to do that.

Kim Thornden-Edwards: I certainly endorse that. Again, it is about the discrete element of the victim liaison officers. In terms of general staffing, I absolutely acknowledge what you are saying. The Lord Chancellor has acknowledged that there are capacity issues in the Probation Service, and workloads are currently too high. We have a comprehensive plan to mitigate that. Part of that is around growth. The Lord Chancellor announced £700 million of additional funds for probation by the end of the spending review period, so we will be able to look at growth with that funding.

We are also looking at ways to improve our processes and use of technology. Those are things that our probation staff on the frontline are saying to us are real hindrances to their ability to do the best job every day, which they absolutely want to do. They are time hoovers, too. The time that staff want to spend with people on probation and on licence, to protect the public and effect the changes that we need to see in their behaviour, is being eaten up by bad tech and poor processes. Alongside growth, there is absolutely a commitment to make those changes as we go forward.