Charging for Access to Parliament

Robert Halfon Excerpts

Thursday 15th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House accepts the need to make financial savings, but considers that the fundamental principle that the House of Commons is a people’s Parliament should not be put at risk; and concludes that since British citizens pay for Parliament, they should be free to visit it without paying, including the Big Ben Clock Tower.

I am very grateful to the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee. I had problems with the proposals that were debated on Monday evening, but I am glad to say that I shall still vote for her if she decides to stand for a second term. I had to appear before the Committee only twice this time, as opposed to three times last time, but nevertheless I am very grateful.

I thank also the hon. Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) and my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Karl MᶜCartney), who went with me to the Committee, and my Tellers today, my hon. Friends the Members for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) and for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen).

Above all, I must thank the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), the Chairman of the House of Commons Commission, because on any problem that I have had in dealing with this issue he has at all times been courteous and, I would say, outstanding. Although I may have disagreements with him, I believe that he is an outstanding Chairman, and I wish I had the chance to vote for him—were the Commission democratically elected.

I have three points to make in this debate about the planned charges for access to the Big Ben Clock Tower. First, the decision is unprecedented but nevertheless creates a dangerous precedent; secondly, it has been decided in a somewhat undemocratic manner; and thirdly, it is unnecessary and unaffordable. I shall deal with those points in turn.

It is true that the House of Commons charges for tours when Parliament is not sitting, but this is the first time that it has chosen to charge for tours during parliamentary hours and, particularly, for tours organised by Members. Those who support the charges argue that Big Ben is not part of our democracy but simply an adornment—a luxury, if you like. That is patently not true. Big Ben is not only the most recognisable British icon in the world, but the most recognisably parliamentary icon.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Surely Her Majesty the Queen is the most recognisable icon in the world.

[Robert Halfon]

I am delighted to see that Labour Members have suddenly become monarchists after all these years.

[Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con)]

A couple of weeks ago, I was at a primary school in Great Yarmouth where people were asking about coming down to the House to Commons for a tour. The young children, who were five and six, were talking specifically about Big Ben. The head teacher said that they would love to come here but coming all the way from that part of Norfolk is expensive enough as it is. Does my hon. Friend agree that adding a charge for Big Ben—the very thing that some of those children want to come and see—would put it beyond the reach of people in areas such as Great Yarmouth?

[Robert Halfon]

As so often, my hon. Friend speaks for the common man. He is absolutely right. He will see from some of my later remarks that I completely agree with him.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

My hon. Friend—our mutual hon. Friend—the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) has the unenviable task of having to balance the budget for the Administration Committee. Is it not better to treat the Houses of Parliament in the same way as museums, with free access as a principle, rather than balancing it off the back of the Administration Committee?

[Robert Halfon]

My hon. Friend, as always, makes a very good point. I will talk about those issues later.

The history books tell us that the bells of the Great Clock of Westminster rang across London for the first time on 31 May 1859, and Parliament had a special sitting to decide on a suitable name for the great hour bell. Many suggestions were made during the course of the debate. It is alleged that the Chief Lord of the Woods and Forests, Sir Benjamin Hall—a large and ponderous man known affectionately in the House as Big Ben—rose and gave an impressively long speech on the subject. A wag in the Chamber shouted out, “Why not call him Big Ben and have done with it?” The House erupted in laughter, and Big Ben had been named. There are many other stories about why Big Ben is called Big Ben, but I use that as an illustration of its importance: when the bell was brought to Parliament, there was a parliamentary debate to show how central it is to our parliamentary democracy.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

If I may disagree gently with the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke), this place is not a museum but a democratic institution and Members should be able to arrange for their constituents to visit every part of it free of charge. I congratulate the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) on the debate. He is right that this could set a precedent. If we start hiring this place out to corporate bodies, massive banks and so on, there is a danger that we will lose the essence of this democratic House.

[Robert Halfon]

The hon. Gentleman has hit the nail on the head. In my conclusion, I will repeat some of the things that he said. He points to a very great danger as regards what our Parliament may become.

[Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)]

My hon. Friend rightly talks about the different suggestions as to why Big Ben is called Big Ben. I do not want him to lose sight of part of the argument, which is that Big Ben is not just for Parliament but for the wider populace, and part of popular culture. Indeed, many say that Big Ben was called Big Ben because of Benjamin Caunt, a prize fighter who had a rather large stomach. That shows its attraction to the public and why we must make it as accessible as possible.

[Robert Halfon]

My hon. Friend, who has been a friend for many years, is absolutely right. It is clearly not true to say that Big Ben is an adornment and is not part of our democracy. Moreover, those who claim that it is not part of our democracy and then say that we do not charge for tours elsewhere might ask themselves why we charge for tours during the summer and at weekends.

As I said, the proposal is unprecedented but creates a dangerous precedent. Now that this has been suggested., what will happen in a few years’ time when it is proposed to charge to go through Westminster Hall or to see the Royal Gallery? The hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, the Leader of the House, the Speaker and so on will say that of course nothing like that would ever happen. I agree with them, in the sense that they are benign individuals, but who is to say that in future years there will not be such benign individuals and that these decisions will not be made?

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend accept that there is a clear distinction between viewing democracy in action here in the Chamber from the Gallery, and in Committee Rooms, and touring Big Ben? The tour is fascinating—one can see the mechanism of the clock and the little room in which MPs were incarcerated—but in no way is it central to our democracy, unlike viewing, and being able to be part of in some small way, what goes on in this Chamber and in Committee Rooms. There is clearly a distinction between the two.

[Robert Halfon]

That is where I have a fundamental disagreement with my hon. Friend and with people who believe that we should charge for visiting Big Ben. I believe that Big Ben is central to the whole of Parliament, and the symbol of Parliament. If one asks anybody what is the one symbol of Parliament in the United Kingdom and across the world, they will say it is Big Ben. It is completely wrong to say that it is just a separate tourist thing.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing this motion to the House. He is absolutely right to say that Big Ben is integral to the fabric of democracy and the institution here at Westminster. I know from personal experience that one of the first things that visitors coming from Northern Ireland say is, “Is it possible to visit Big Ben and go up the tower?” It would be outrageous to charge people to do that who have come all the way from Northern Ireland and paid their air fares; it would put them off coming to Westminster.

--- Later in debate ---

[Robert Halfon]

The right hon. Gentleman is right. People in Northern Ireland have been victims of terrorism, and they will know that the bells of Big Ben rang through the blitz and have a central part in everything good about being British.

This is an undemocratic decision because it has been made by the House of Commons Commission. The decision opens a can of worms. Yes, there have been consultations, chats, discussions and e-mails with MPs, but surely we in this House should have a say over major decisions about the costing and planning of expenditure at Westminster. The Commission says that we have to cut 17% from Parliament’s budget. I recognise, as does everybody else, that we have to make cuts. The 17% figure might be the right one, but it might be the wrong one—perhaps it should be 20% or 15%—but we in this House and in this Chamber have had no say in it, and that is wrong. The Commission should come to the House and present a list of the savings it is making, and then MPs should have the right to say whether they agree or disagree and answer to our constituents as to whether we are giving the taxpayer value for money.

The plans to charge for Big Ben raise much wider issues about the remit of the House of Commons Commission and whether Members should be elected to it.

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

I fully support the hon. Gentleman’s motion. He is talking about savings in the House, but very much of what the Commission does is totally undemocratic. We never get asked about it and suddenly find out things from other people who work in this House. Does he agree that over the past five or six years what happens in the House has become incredibly top-heavy, with managers who are managing everything and have no understanding of what is going on at the bottom here in the House of Commons?

[Robert Halfon]

I do agree. Sadly, that is true of the whole public sector, not just Parliament, but the hon. Lady makes a very powerful point.

My next argument is that the decision is unnecessary. The Commission states that Clock Tower tours cost roughly £93,000, which will go up to about £111,000 over the next year or so. I would question that. Now that we are going to bring in charges, I suspect that not as many people will be able to afford to come here. I know from an e-mail that I have received that up to 200 people have e-mailed to ask for Clock Tower tours as soon as possible to try to avoid the cut-off date.

As I said, Parliament needs time to debate where these savings could be made. We need to think first in generalities, but I will offer some specific savings for Members to consider. We could look at the cost of publications and press cuttings. As regards the dining rooms, on Mondays they are barely used at lunchtime, so one of them could be closed at those times, saving a fair bit of money. Then there are the properties owned by the House of Commons. I am particularly disturbed about the waste of food in this place, which is absolutely obscene. I therefore welcome the ten-minute rule Bill on the subject of food waste that was introduced by the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) yesterday. The other day, when I went to the Members Dining Room, I asked the staff, who are wonderful and hard-working, “How many people have been in here today?”, and they said “About three.” This was a Monday lunchtime, and there was a huge banquet of food, as there always is. I asked what happened to the food, and they said, “It has to be thrown away.” I replied, “Well, why can’t it be given to charity or why can’t less food be made?” The answer on the charity point was that they might be sued if the food was contaminated and somebody got food poisoning.

I tabled a written question to ask the House of Commons Commission how much food was thrown away in the last year. The answer was the shocking figure of £100,000-worth. That cannot continue. When we are looking for savings, we should look at that issue seriously. Again, MPs should have a chance to debate this matter.

[Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)]

On the issue of savings, my hon. Friend said that the cost of the Clock Tower tours is about £100,000 a year. Given that the tours are likely to diminish in number as a result of charging, has anybody told him what the cost will be of employing the person to administer the charging scheme, and does he know how much the administration of the project will cost in total? I suspect that it will be more than £100,000.

[Robert Halfon]

My hon. Friend, as so often, has come up with a very good question, which I hope the Chairman of the Commission or the Leader of the House will answer.

We cannot talk just in generalities, so I will propose some real savings to the Commission.

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

I will expand on this point in my contribution, should I catch the eye of Mr Deputy Speaker, but I have discovered through questioning that there are additional ongoing costs of £1.5 million simply for Parliament to come back for two weeks and then be off for another two weeks in September. If we compressed that time and did not have a break for party conferences, which are for political purposes after all, we could save £1.5 million.

[Robert Halfon]

With that point, my hon. Friend augments my argument that we should be able to debate savings on the Floor of the House, and not just through consultations or by filling out surveys, which people rarely notice among their e-mails.

I am grateful to the director of the savings programme and the Secretary of the Commission for providing me with a lot of detail about the important work that the Commission is doing to save money. I recognise that a lot of savings are being made. However, let me add a few ideas. We could cut corporate initiatives by an additional 10%, which would save £150,000 a year and leave 80% of the original budget. We could trim overseas trips and delegations by just another 10%, which would save £125,000 a year and leave 80% of the original budget. We could streamline parliamentary outreach by just another 10% in both the House of Commons and the House of Lords, which would save £194,000 a year and leave 80% of the original budget. The total savings from those things would be £469,000 a year. Hon. Members may have other ideas, but we have never had the chance to debate properly on the Floor of the House what savings there should and should not be. That is why the decision that has been made is fundamentally wrong.

I have also said that this decision is unaffordable. We received an e-mail late on a Friday afternoon a couple of weeks ago, saying that individuals would be charged £15 a head. A family of four would therefore have to pay £60. For people on average earnings of just £20,000-odd, that is unaffordable. It will therefore discourage people from coming to Parliament and coming to see Big Ben. To return to the precedent argument, even if that figure was reduced—I accept that the Chairman of the Commission has said that it will consider that—it would be likely to increase in future years. First it will be £15. In two years’ time it might be £20, then £30, and then £40 or £50. Where does it stop?

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the most important pillars of our democracy is transparency, and that part of that transparency is that this Palace is open to the public? We should encourage the public to visit their Parliament—it is not just our Parliament—and should not put them off with petty charges.

[Robert Halfon]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. My view is that the House of Commons Commission has come up with the easy option. Money needs to be saved, so why not target members of the public, who cannot really fight back, by slapping on a charge? That is the easy option, which is why I believe the decision is so wrong.

A leaflet that is sold in most of the tourism shops around Westminster states:

“Who owns Big Ben? You do! If you are a citizen of the UK, and if you pay taxes, you are one of the owners of Big Ben. In fact, you own the whole clock tower and the Houses of Parliament too!”

That is something that the British people believe. That is why it is so wrong suddenly to institute charges for people to come to see their heritage. In essence, it imposes double taxation because people pay for Parliament anyway.

[Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)]

I am interested to hear my hon. Friend’s comments. He mentioned that this is about British taxpayers. As no foreigner is currently allowed up Big Ben, so we have obviously managed to twist the rules on how we treat these dodgy foreigners. Should we not stitch them up, as we do in the summer, and charge them to go up the Clock Tower?

[Robert Halfon]

I can always rely on my hon. Friend to ask such a question. I have no objection to people who are not British citizens paying to come into Parliament.

[Mrs Main]

Perhaps I can be helpful, because I have looked into that very point. The reason given is that it takes two weeks to provide security clearance and to do passport checks before people are allowed to go up Big Ben. That might not be possible for visitors, foreign or otherwise. That might be the answer.

[Robert Halfon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that information. I hope that these points are brought out in discussion.

In conclusion, I have a romantic belief in Parliament. I still genuinely believe that this is the best Parliament in the world, even with all the problems that we face as a country. I came here as a small boy when I was 10 years old, and from that day on, I wanted to sit in this place. We have to make our Parliament a special place and encourage people to come here. The hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) made an important point a moment ago. I worry hugely that, rather than being a Parliament for the people, this place is becoming—

[Mrs Main]

A theme park.

[Robert Halfon]

As my hon. Friend says, it is becoming a theme park. It is advertising itself for weddings, bar mitzvahs, engagement parties and big corporate entertainment shows. I have no problem with businesses coming here and having dinners at which particular issues are discussed. However, this is not a theme park. We should not be selling ourselves short to businesses and hiring ourselves out to them when ordinary people cannot come here. Businesses will inevitably be privileged over ordinary people. I am reminded of the parable of the moneylenders at the temple. Let us not become a place of moneylenders and be just about money, money, money; let us be the Parliament of the people, by the people, for the people.

[Dr Murrison]

On that rather churchy theme, does my hon. Friend not accept that people who want to pray in our great cathedrals do so, of course, free of charge, but that people who visit them as sightseers are invited to pay a fee? In a similar way, people who wish to participate in democracy here can view the proceedings, but if they want to be sightseers in the tower, they should perhaps be invited to contribute.

[Robert Halfon]

I have two points in answer to that. First, Parliament is part of our democracy and so is slightly different. Secondly, people who go to churches do not already pay for local churches through their taxes. We already pay for Parliament through taxation, so why should we be taxed again?

Finally, perhaps the House of Commons Commission could set up a foundation to look at the heritage of Big Ben and to keep Big Ben tours free. In the interests of that, I will make a pledge to the Chairman of the House of Commons Commission. Some Members will know that I have difficulties with my legs. I pledge to walk up Big Ben to raise money so that we can keep our Parliament free for all our citizens and to ensure that many people can come to see our greatest landmark for many years to come.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Thomas Docherty]

I am most grateful for that point of clarification. I thought the hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry) had referred to the Administration Committee, so I apologise to him for that. The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden will also be most relieved that that has been cleared up.

The coalition Government said that 17% should be the average saving across public spending. That is why the Commission—rightly or wrongly—set that target. You, Mr Deputy Speaker, know that my view is that it is wrong, but if we are to meet that target, some difficult decisions have to be made.

Let us also be clear that the proposals are not about profiteering. This is not about making money, but simply about recouping the costs of running the tours.

[Robert Halfon]

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that roughly 60 of my constituents have come on Big Ben tours? Tomorrow, 15 people from the Prince’s Trust are coming and I will meet them all. How can we justify telling those people that they have to pay £15 a head to come and see Big Ben?

[Thomas Docherty]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that there is a difficult choice, but the reality is that we must make cost savings. He knows that there are difficult decisions to make. I see the Minister of State, Department of Health, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), chuntering away next to him. He knows more than anybody that the real-terms cuts—they have been made in his Department—are difficult, yet he does not say that we should not make them. [Interruption.] Real-terms cuts have been made.

We are not all in this together. Members on both sides of the House do not recognise that the House needs to show fiscal responsibility.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

I much enjoyed hearing from my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry) an impassioned plea for the House to be turned into a glorified hotel with a free clock tower attached. I am not entirely convinced that that is the right order of priorities. It seems to me that the House is united in feeling that savings must be made, but that whenever a specific saving is suggested, everyone is against it.

I wish to defend the Commission against the charge that it never consults people. It does, as one will see if one reads one’s e-mails. I replied to one which dealt with the question of whether or not the bound copies of Hansard should continue to be available. I actually like re-reading my own speeches—somebody has to—and I therefore wish to receive the bound copies, but I quite understand that a very expensive process is involved. It might be appropriate for Members to keep their old copies together or to make a contribution if they want to continue to receive bound copies.

I believe that there are two clear principles when it comes to cost savings in the House. The first is that we, and our electorate, can hold the Government to account, and that anything that enables us to hold the Government to account should not be cut. That includes most of the papers that are produced for us, such as the daily Hansards, the Order Papers, and the lists of early-day motions. All the things that enable us to hold the Government to account ought to be retained, even if they are expensive; and all the things that allow our constituents to hold us to account—their freedom to visit the Galleries, to attend Committee meetings, and to exercise their important right to come to the front desk and ask to lobby us and to see us—should also be free, and not subject to any cuts.

The second principle is that we must be able to serve our constituents and meet their requirements when they have problems, and that, too, should not be subject to any cuts. It is important for Members of Parliament to have the staff they need and the facilities they need—the writing paper and the postage stamps—to deal with matters that affect their constituents’ lives.

Not a penny should be saved in those areas, and all Members of Parliament should be united in defending us against any such cuts; but—and it is a very big but—there are some things that are not essential to holding the Government to account and do not provide an essential service for our constituents. In those instances, even if the savings are small, it is important to make them. We are not only doing this in the context of Parliament’s £200 million budget; we are doing it symbolically, to show that we are not just imposing costs and cuts on our constituents, but tightening our own belts. Let me put this question to Members who do not want to charge people for going up the Clock Tower. How can we say to our constituents who are on £43,000-and-a-bit a year that they will not receive their child benefit, when we are not willing to accept even a modest charge for a visit to the Clock Tower?

[Robert Halfon]

My hon. Friend says that we must tighten our own belts. It is not our belts that we will be tightening, but the belts of our constituents who want to come and see Big Ben. I am not one of those who say that the House of Commons does not need to make savings. Indeed, I suggested a series of savings that the House could make in my opening remarks.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

As I mentioned in my own opening remarks, everyone is in favour of savings, but if we can make an additional saving, we should be pleased about it. I hope that the Commission has heard all my hon. Friend’s recommendations for savings and the recommendations of others who have spoken, because they all ought to be considered. However, it is difficult to accept that going to look at a clockwork mechanism and a large bell, however great and however splendid, is essential to the democracy of this country which has served us so well for hundreds of years. It is a curiosity, it is something of interest to do, it is a delight and a pleasure, but it is not at the heart of how we scrutinise the Government or how we serve our constituents.

We know that times are hard. If I wished to be party political, I could say that our friends on the other side had maxed out the credit card; but whether it is due to that or to bankers, the fact is that the country needs to make savings, and a charging £15 each to 9,000 people a year who want to see a clockwork machine strikes me as not unreasonable.

I seem to be in the same position as my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall). I seem to be more establishment than the establishment itself. I understand that, as we have been debating the matter, a compromise has been agreed, and I am sorry about that, because I think that this would have been a right and proper thing to do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

I think the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) has given his word, and I am sure that he is a man of his word and that we do not need to bring that into question today.

[Robert Halfon]

Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I should have said in my opening remarks that I am a member of the British Horological Institute, but I also want to put on record my gratitude to the representative of the Commission, the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), for listening to Members and agreeing to drop the Big Ben charges.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I think the hon. Gentleman made the first point in the debate, and the second point is not a point of order.