Great British Energy Bill (First sitting)

Pippa Heylings Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th October 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Uma Kumaran]

Q Welcome, Mr Maier. It is good to hear your reassurances about communities being kept at the heart of this. You have told us about renewables, about offshore and about clean energy. As we have heard, it is a short Bill, but I would welcome your thoughts on what the Bill tells us about the objects and the strategic priorities of GB Energy and whether, in your view, it gives you enough detail to carry out your work.

Juergen Maier: It certainly gives me a very clear direction, along with the framework document that we will develop together with the Secretary of State and the Minister. The short answer to your question is that it is pretty clear. The purpose is clear, and that is the most important thing: the purpose, at the end of the day, is that we will accelerate the amount of clean renewable energy that we put on the grid, and that we will create as much prosperity and as many jobs through it as possible.

[Pippa Heylings (South Cambridgeshire) (LD)]

Q Welcome, Mr Maier. The main thing for me is the public accountability of GB Energy. You are very clear that the Bill gives you strategic direction. How do you feel that it also provides for public accountability for the money being invested or co-invested?

Juergen Maier: We are seeing pretty good evidence of that right now, aren’t we? At the end of the day, this is now a pretty well-established model for being absolutely state-owned and independently run. “Independently run” means excellent governance, and obviously as start-up chair I am going to ensure that that is the case. That does not all need to be in the Bill, because we know what it means. We have the Companies Act 2006 and numerous Acts about how good governance works. We will ensure through our board and our non-executives that there is proper governance, and of course there will be many opportunities for reviews by the Secretary of State and ultimately for the usual sort of public scrutiny.

[The Chair]

Order. That is the end of our first panel.

Examination of Witnesses

Mika Minio-Paluello and Mike Clancy gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Olivia Blake]

Q I have a question about the fact that this is a public company, and it is really important that it is accountable to the public. Do you think that the Bill has sufficient detail about that accountability against its objectives and effectiveness?

Shaun Spiers: We have concerns about the huge powers given to the Secretary of State in the Bill. Clause 5(2) says:

“The Secretary of State may revise or replace the statement.”

A subsequent Secretary of State could significantly revise the aims of GB Energy. We think that the statement should be consulted on. We would propose an addition or amendment to say that the Secretary of State must consult anybody likely to be affected by the statement, or such bodies as considered appropriate by the Secretary of State— something like that, just to say that there should be more scrutiny so that the Secretary of State cannot simply change the aims of GB Energy in the way it is currently set out.

Ravi Gurumurthy: I run an innovation organisation, and the hallmark of good innovation, or of good companies, is that they pivot and adapt. I know that it is sometimes challenging to set up an institution like GB Energy and not lock down all the parameters, but actually that is critical. There are issues and barriers that we do not even know yet, and I think it is important that this organisation can do whatever it takes to achieve the mission, even if we cannot right now identify exactly every single aspect of its role.

Marc Hedin: I would echo that message that the role of Great British Energy is very broad and is being defined as we speak. That is what we in this room, but also the people working for Great British Energy, are doing at the moment. It could also change in the future as the challenges of energy administration evolve. I therefore think it makes sense for the Bill to provide present and future flexibility in scope.

That being said, there are two points or questions that should potentially be answered. First, what are the governance arrangements to ensure that Great British Energy carries out its duties and focuses on its remit? Part of the answer could be that it should be ensured that Great British Energy provides additionality and works with stakeholders, which is what Shaun Spiers mentioned. Secondly, since Great British Energy’s role is primarily to fill gaps in the market, it would be useful to assess its effectiveness there. Clause 7 only mentions an annual rendition of financial accounts, and there is no mention of effectiveness or impact. Reflecting on the possible roles of Great British Energy, some, such as speeding up project delivery, will lead to value added for the whole system but not necessarily additional revenues for Great British Energy. Financial accounts may only tell part of the story, and there is a need for more comprehensive reporting, in my view.

Shaun Spiers: If I may, just quickly: to require consultation on the strategic priorities if they are going to change radically should not be too onerous.

[Pippa Heylings]

Q My question was exactly on that point. Thank you all for coming here to present your evidence.

Can you explain a little more your concerns? First, given that innovation needs to pivot, but also given that we are being asked to allow for the objects to be so broad to allow for flexibility within them, Shaun, can you explain a little more why you think there should be consultation on such broad objects? Secondly, can you discuss any concerns you may have around environmental requirements for what GB Energy is going to do? That is also absent at the moment from the objects of the Bill.

Shaun Spiers: On the concern about the ability of subsequent Secretaries of State simply to change the strategic direction of the organisation, you can look at recent history to know that there can be radical changes. It does not seem to me to be too demanding; it is just good governance to suggest that that should be consulted on, and that you do not give absolute powers to a Secretary of State to do that. I do not see that as a particular constraint on innovation; I just think of that as good governance.

The Chair is keen that we do not lever in lots of other things on the Bill, but there is a concern. Clearly, 2030 power decarbonisation is an imperative and we need to achieve net zero, but we also have a nature crisis and there are concerns about whether GB Energy will seek to enhance nature or whether nature will take second place. Both the Secretary of State and Chris Stark, the head of mission control, have emphasised that there will be a role for considerations of nature in energy planning. But, again, that is not in the Bill, and it would be nice to see it there or to see some statement to that effect from the Dispatch Box to ensure that it is central to how GB Energy will behave. There are lots of public companies that do not prioritise nature—they prioritise bills or the delivery of their main objective—and we see the consequence of that, for instance, in the water industry.

[Josh MacAlister]

Q This is a follow-up for Ravi Gurumurthy, on the theme of autonomy and flexibility for GBE. For this to be a success, there needs to be some appetite for risk taken by GBE. Historically, Government agencies have not been known for being particularly free to do that. The Bill intends to provide a degree of flexibility for GBE to operate and respond with autonomy and pace. Given the work that Nesta has done in this space, Ravi, can you say a little more about what gives you the confidence that the Bill sets that up in the right way?

Ravi Gurumurthy: It is a very challenging question. As you know, good intentions in this area often do not translate. You can mandate and say you want to operate with risk appetite, but it does not really translate into behaviour. What do I think are some of the components? The capitalisation of GB Energy is really important, because that gives it some degree of resource to take risks. I am quite interested in whether, as well as investing in novel technologies with a high-risk appetite, GB Energy can either take cashless equity stakes or invest in more established technologies, because if you have a more balanced portfolio, it might give you the ability to take risks in some aspects.

That gets you into a conversation about the fiscal rules. The one thing I would say about this area is that if you compare offshore wind and other established energy technologies with roads or hospitals, the big difference in my mind is that for offshore wind we will build those wind farms whether the state invests or not, and we will pay as consumers, whereas roads and hospitals will not get built if the state does not. The point is that we are going to pay for it, and we will pay more through private sector borrowing than we will through the state.

The second big difference is that unlike a road or a hospital, there was a guaranteed revenue stream through a contract for difference, so there is a really good rationale for why we should not have fiscal rules that bias us towards 100% private sector borrowing, rather than the state either taking a cashless equity stake via this development process or actually investing. If you do that, it will give GB Energy the ability to then take risks on the much more novel aspects of the portfolio and have failures. If GB Energy does not have failures, it will not be doing its job.

--- Later in debate ---

[Olivia Blake]

Q I wanted to ask about the definition in the Bill on clean energy. Do either of you have any thoughts on whether that definition is clear enough?

Dan McGrail: From my perspective, the definition is probably good enough. It is quite tricky to go too narrow and say renewable energy only, because there are certain areas, such as long duration storage, where the sector would like GB Energy to participate in, or at least to have the freedom to participate in, which, if it is too narrowly constrained or defined, may prove problematic later down the line.

One thing I think would be advantageous in the definition, or in the objects, is to clearly set out the guard rails, such as ensuring the carbon budgets are referenced. If we reference the carbon budgets, future Secretaries of State would need to make sure that any investments that were made were in line with the delivery of the carbon budgets. That is comparable to what was done with the set-up of the Green Investment Bank, where there were specific references to what the Secretary of State would need to go back to primary legislation to change, and what would be foreseeable within secondary legislation—not directing the Green Investment Bank to invest in fossil fuels, for example, would have required a complete change of mandate. I think some similar thinking, therefore, would be helpful here.

Adam Berman: I do not completely agree. I do not think there is a big problem of definition, but I would say that we need to ensure it is consistent with the CCC’s existing language and with the technologies that it thinks are consistent with the sixth carbon budget. Clean energy may encapsulate all of them, but I think we would have to make sure that it includes established mature renewables, nuclear, carbon capture, utilisation and storage and hydrogen, just to leave those options on the table. I do not disagree with Dan that there needs to be a focus, but GB Energy needs to at least be given the option to engage in the technologies where it thinks there may be additionality in terms of bringing in GBE’s involvement.

[Pippa Heylings]

Q To go back to the few organisations that you mentioned in connection with consultation, you got to devolved Administrations but I did not hear about local government. The Local Government Association has been pushing very hard and is keen for the place-makers—those who understand what demand will be, what the spatial strategies are and what land is available—to be part of the planning very early on. Do you agree that they should be included in the shortened consultation list?

Adam Berman: Clearly I agree that they are of incredible importance when it comes to planning the energy system and that the dialogue with them about the local communities that they know better than anyone else is pivotal. The challenge is that for GB Energy, as far as I understand it, a major part of it is local power plans, which will already have involved close consultation with local authorities and communities in lots of different ways.

From an industry perspective, I would be hesitant about placing that as a condition on GB Energy’s investment. That is not to diminish its importance; it is just to ensure that we are allowing GB Energy to be successful and that we are not holding it back. There is a very good argument that that should be included in the legislation, and that the national energy system operator and the Climate Change Committee should be included in the legislation, but once we have gone through all those bodies, it starts to become prohibitive for the investment process, which we want to be free and fair for GB Energy. We are therefore slightly hesitant about saying that we necessarily have to look to any particular body for consultation.

[Pippa Heylings]

Q May I follow up on that? We are looking at the governance side. We know that on the spatial side, we have the local energy action plan. Rather than taking an individual look, I am looking at how we ensure that where that spatial strategy happens, rather than talking about individual local community consultations, those who know about the place-making are brought into the energy planning early. I fear that leaving them out will once again endanger all the progress that has been made in local energy area planning. We just need a reference to it somehow.

Adam Berman: That is a really good point. I think that there could be something in the legislation to ensure that GB Energy’s investments are consistent not only with the local area energy planning, but with the strategic spatial energy planning that the energy system operator is doing.

Dan McGrail: There is a really important point here about how, to be successful in the market, GB Energy will need to engage with those processes anyway. There will be accountability around the company, but one nervousness I have is about trying to put too much into the Bill specifically on GB Energy. I agree that the point should be about complying with the things that we need to deal with, whether those are in law, in programmes such as the strategic spatial energy plan or in the work of the national system operator. Those are all interconnected and contiguous pieces of a system in which GB Energy needs to be able to operate effectively. The onus, if we put anything in legislation, is to be compliant with all that.

[The Chair]

We are getting away from the Bill a bit.

Oral Answers to Questions

Pippa Heylings Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.

[Pippa Heylings (South Cambridgeshire) (LD)]

Keeping vulnerable people warm and lowering their energy bills is, I am sure, something we can all agree on across the House. Insulating homes is a key part of that puzzle. We welcome the news that we will see the warm homes plan in spring. However, does the Minister agree that ahead of this winter we need an emergency home insulation plan, particularly for the vulnerable, along with allocated funding? Does she have any idea of the amount and allocation of funding in this Parliament that there will be for insulating homes?

[Miatta Fahnbulleh]

We are really clear that as we develop our plans we absolutely need to get on with the job of upgrading homes. We have announced our warm homes local grant and our warm homes social housing fund, which are targeted at low-income families, because we know there is a job of work to do. We are committed to an additional £6.6 billion to invest in our warm homes plan over the course of this Parliament.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.

[Pippa Heylings (South Cambridgeshire) (LD)]

As we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Wells and Mendip Hills (Tessa Munt), the lack of national grid capacity is holding back the UK’s push towards renewable energy. There are numerous examples of projects that have been delayed because they are waiting to be connected to the national grid, or because connection is too expensive. In my constituency, we cannot even connect the solar panels and batteries for the ambitious plan to decarbonise and electrify the refuse fleet for South Cambridgeshire district council. The projects that have been delayed include the building of new homes, which is crucial at present. Can the Minister explain to us how we are to reach this stage on the scale and at the pace that is needed?

[Michael Shanks]

The hon. Lady is right to highlight those issues. The connections queue, in particular, is a huge challenge, with more than 700 GW waiting to join it. The last Government did some work to establish how the queue could be prioritised, and we will now implement that, but we need to go further. It is clear that by 2030 we will need to build four times as much new transmission network as has been built since 1990. This is a project to rewire the entire country, to improve the current connections availability, and to work with everyone, including the new national energy systems operator, on the road map towards 2030.

Carbon Capture, Usage and Storage

Pippa Heylings Excerpts

Monday 7th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

I call the Lib Deb spokesperson.

[Pippa Heylings (South Cambridgeshire) (LD)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. The Liberal Democrats are committed to supporting British industries in cutting carbon emissions and getting the country back on track towards meeting our climate targets. It cannot be emphasised enough how significant it is that this announcement comes at the same time as we hear about the UK being the first industrial nation to close its last coal-fired power plant. We had been dependent on coal for 150 years, so that is absolutely key.

It is clear that the future lies with renewables and clean energy, where we need to bring urgency and the necessary scale of investment. The Conservative Government’s irresponsible roll-back from key climate pledges, and their failure to invest properly in renewable energy and home insulation, has left thousands of households vulnerable to fuel poverty as another winter approaches. The failure to move forward at pace in decarbonising our industries, our transport and our homes has left us needing to take difficult decisions. We support the need, recognised by the Climate Change Committee, for at-scale, long-term investment in CCS, particularly for hard-to-decarbonise industries such as chemicals, cement and steel manufacturing. We would like to see investment in existing industries, and we want it to meet environmental requirements.

While we are discussing history, I should mention that it was my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Ed Davey) who launched carbon capture and storage, which was yet again cancelled by the Conservatives. However, although carbon capture and storage is a key tool in reaching net zero, it is also very expensive and complex, and evidence of its efficacy is still scant. Understandably, as the Secretary of State mentioned, there is much concern about the focus on incentivising industries to invest in CCS as an alternative to radically reducing their emissions. Therefore, it is important that the Government set out clearly and transparently the path to delivery for any CCS they invest in and show the milestones for progress. What will the Secretary of State do to increase investment—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. I call the Secretary of State.

COP29: UK Priorities

Pippa Heylings Excerpts

Tuesday 10th September 2024 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, and his as always wise and salient words. The big countries in the world, such as China, Russia and others, have a disregard for fossil fuel pollution and seem to wish to pollute the rest of the world from their own countries. There is a real need for them to do something.

I am really pleased to see the Under-Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero in her place. She sat on the Opposition side of the Chamber in many debates; she and I would have been alongside each other on many things, supporting the same objectives and the same targets. It is a real pleasure to see her today and I wish her well. It also nice to see the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier), in his place.

I always bring the Northern Ireland perspective to debates, because it is important that we understand—perhaps appreciate is a better word—things that are happening in Northern Ireland and how they contribute to policy at Westminster. In Northern Ireland, as a smaller nation of the United Kingdom, we are not shy to the feeling of being left behind, so it is important that efforts are made to engage with international stakeholders, which my hon. Friend referred to.

I will give an example. Climate Northern Ireland brings together members from the key range of sectors to share best practice and enable positive action to address the impacts of climate change. It is funded by the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and aims to support the development and implementation of climate policy—it is really important, and core to the Department’s policy—by enabling the exchange of expertise and advice between Government Departments, public bodies and civil society. It brings them all together under one umbrella to pursue a policy that coincides and works alongside the one at Westminster.

I live in Greyabbey in Strangford and am a farmer there. I was saying to some people I met earlier this morning that I love to come here for the history, but I do not enjoy the concrete. I like to get back home to where the fields are green and where I can walk out and breathe the fresh country air, but that does not take away from where we are. Numerous neighbours of mine own farms themselves. It is really important that we have balance in this debate.

[Pippa Heylings (South Cambridgeshire) (LD)]

The hon. Member talked about peace and working together with international stakeholders. I would like to add to the calls on the Government for a special climate envoy nominated for our country, because all the things that are being said here today require diplomacy, negotiation and preparation before any climate summit.

I have 15 years’ experience of working in international climate negotiations, from the developing country aspect. I have witnessed how important the roles of special representatives, other climate envoys around the world and climate ambassadors are. Would the hon. Member, and the hon. Member for Ealing Southall (Deirdre Costigan) who introduced this debate, agree that the climate envoy should be nominated by the Prime Minister, so that it has the gravitas to put the UK back into a global leadership position, which the former Conservative Government trashed?

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention and for the work she did in her previous occupation. That brings a wealth of knowledge to debates here; we can all learn and be the wiser for that. The Minister might be able to respond to our thoughts. We are looking for a climate envoy, as the hon. Lady referred to. We should all recognise the justification for that. I look forward to hearing in the Minister’s response on how that is to be taken care of.

In the farming community where I live, we understand the huge significance of farming and agriculture for our climate, as well as the contribution to the local economy. That is why it is important to get the balance right. I work closely alongside the Ulster Farmers Union and the National Farmers Union. I declare an interest that I should have mentioned earlier: I am a member of the Ulster Farmers Union and work alongside it on many policies. It has pledged support for issues such as measures on emissions. It is important to bring people along; it is important to bring along the farming community. It is important to understand the goals, then we can work together. That is what everyone wants but it is never easy to achieve. As I have said before, these things are hard to do without the commitment of funding for our Government. Maybe we can get some clarity from the Minister on the commitment to Northern Ireland.

The Minister’s interest in Northern Ireland has never been in dispute, but I would like to hear whether she has had an opportunity to talk with the DAERA Minister in Northern Ireland, Andrew Muir, or with civil servants and Government officials, to see how we can work on this together. If we are going to do it, it is always better to do it together.

I understand the Labour Government have not yet published their priorities for COP29. I am keen to see what they are. When we reflect on the most recent policy document, that sets out a commitment to keeping 1.5 alive. Limiting global temperature increases is really important. Some people believe that is not happening but, as we look about us around the world, we know we have to address this key issue. Building resilience and reversing biodiversity loss were priorities set out in the Paris agreement. I understand that the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero has met current and past COP presidents.

Other roles are taken by local councils, stakeholders and small, medium and large businesses. Most importantly, I honestly believe our constituents want to do their bit, but they must be given the means to do so. My way of doing politics has always been to try to bring everyone with us. It is in the nature of life that we might not agree on everything but, when we have a joint goal, we can focus better together. We are always better together and have roles to play at councils, at the Northern Ireland Assembly, and at regional and Westminster level.

COP provides a fantastic opportunity for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to pave the way in climate success, by being adaptable and showing that we are willing to learn as a collective. There is a lot to learn and a lot to do; let us do it together.

Making Britain a Clean Energy Superpower

Pippa Heylings Excerpts

Friday 26th July 2024 Commons Chamber

[Pippa Heylings (South Cambridgeshire) (LD)]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and congratulations on your new role. I also congratulate the hon. Member for East Thanet (Ms Billington), with whom I worked before we both came to this Chamber, through UK100 and elsewhere, on local climate action, which I will speak much about today. I also congratulate the Minister and the Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero.

It means a great deal to me to make my maiden speech during a debate in which the new Government are setting out green energy policies and plans to get us back on track with our climate pledges here at home, so that we can once again contribute on the international stage towards collective global action. Closer to home, Government research shows that local climate action would achieve net zero for half the cost of the national approach and deliver three times the financial returns, but we need a clear framework between the national and the local and for how councils fit into the national plan for net zero, including community energy initiatives.

Let me say how proud and humbled I am by the faith the residents of beautiful South Cambridgeshire have put in me. They wanted change, and this was a truly historic result. The Liberal Democrats won all three Cambridgeshire seats, turning them from blue to yellow for the first time, forming a golden ring around the constituency of the Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner). I congratulate him on his appointment as the Minister for farming. We have a golden ring, or rather a golden doughnut with red jam in the middle, and it is thanks to family, friends and activists, many of them here today, that that happened.

I am a lass from Hull, whose dad was a GP and mum a nurse. From an early age, I accompanied my dad on his home visits to patients, and it was those roots in the NHS that fostered in me a deep sense of community service, as well as an insight into the links between inequality, child poverty and poor health outcomes. That is why I am proud that the Liberal Democrats put the NHS and social care at the forefront of our campaign, after years of Conservative chaos and neglect left the NHS on its knees. I will continue to campaign to get fairer funding for our GPs in Cambridgeshire, because the unfair funding formula in Cambridgeshire is leaving GPs struggling to keep their heads above water.

Inequality was a cruel determinant in the covid pandemic and led to many avoidable deaths. South Cambridgeshire helped avoid more. It was here that the quick deciphering of the covid virus’s genetic code allowed for the vaccines to be developed straightaway. That partly explains why they were available in record time. The researchers then continued to detect the variants as they emerged. It was truly lifesaving. That is part of the reason why semi-rural South Cambridgeshire is fast changing. It is now home to world-leading innovation, with Europe’s largest biomedical centre and the Wellcome Genome Campus, as well as more than 8,000 start-ups and businesses, most of which are small or medium-sized enterprises.

Our world-leading tech and life science sectors are among the biggest contributors to the country’s economy, and I invite the Government to recognise that. They are the goose that lays the golden egg, which is why their future needs to be shaped carefully with and through the local authorities, giving local people a voice and tackling affordable housing, the water supply, transport and grid infrastructure gaps in a way that allows communities, businesses and nature to thrive.

That is why I would like to pay my respects to my predecessor, Anthony Browne, who worked hard to raise those issues. He supported the calls on Government to tackle the water crisis, and I look forward to continuing his work supporting the campaigns for the new cancer and children’s hospitals, too. I also pay tribute to his predecessor, Heidi Allen, who is still remembered fondly by many residents. Sadly, Heidi stood down from politics as a result of the abuse that many MPs—mainly women —face. In her words,

“Of course public scrutiny is to be expected, but lines are all too often regularly crossed and the effect is utterly dehumanising.”

Heidi had become an MP to stand up for the vulnerable and for those who have no voice. Now, more than ever, I want to continue their work by helping to ensure that there is a positive and inclusive vision for all in South Cambridgeshire where no one is left behind. It is distressing that 15% of children in my constituency are living in poverty, with increasing numbers dependent on food banks and free school meals, isolated in villages with no public transport.

This inclusive vision must include our unique and precious chalk streams that connect us—our blue veins; the silvery threads weaving together our villages. We have the Granta that twinkles through Stapleford, Linton and Balsham; the River Shep that starts in Fowlmere nature reserve and flows through Shepreth and Barrington villages; the River Rhee that flows through Haslingfield and Harston; the Mel that rises in Melbourn and flows through Meldreth; and the Fulbourn and Wilbraham chalk streams. Residents are rightly outraged at the dumping of raw sewage in these streams and rivers. I urge the Government to get tougher with the water companies. Together with the Government, I will champion breathing new life into the Chalk Streams (Protections) Bill. I have worked professionally for many years with Governments around the world to integrate climate and nature into growth plans, mediating agreements where benefits can flow to local communities.

What motivates me most is how young people see their future. A recent study on young people found that too many had climate anxiety. Their most used words were fear, anger, frustration and worry. There were two main reasons why they felt this way: first, they did not think that decision makers listened to them; and, secondly, they thought that decision makers did not care or take the right decisions for their future. I have met many young people in South Cambridgeshire who feel this way, and they want action on the twin climate and nature emergencies. I speak to them now: I want what we do in this Chamber to restore your faith and give you agency, so that together we can be the change that we want.