Combat Troop Withdrawal (Afghanistan)

Paul Flynn Excerpts

Wednesday 7th November 2012 Westminster Hall

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. This is a moment of great joy and satisfaction. The peacemaker Obama has been voted into power again. He is a man who voted against the Iraq war in 2003, against the jingoism of his time. He will continue to serve the world with his idealism, his intelligence and his audacity of hope. He has earned the congratulations and earnest good wishes of this House, and it is a pleasure to offer them to him. He has given politics a fresh nobility and intellectual rigour. He also leads a nation that has sacrificed more of its sons and daughters in the service of bringing democracy to other nations than any other on earth.

President Obama now has two main tasks, in my view: ending the bloodshed in Afghanistan and avoiding the possibility of a war in Iran. I believe that if Obama had been President in 2001, a war in Afghanistan would have been avoided, because a deal would have been possible if America had been willing to recognise the Taliban Government; Osama bin Laden would have been handed over. But the country was full of understandable desire for vengeance after the terrible events of 9/11.

There is an uglier side to the picture. On one side is hope, idealism and rhetoric, but it is right that we as a Parliament should confront the consequences of our own decisions. The decision to send troops to Afghanistan was ours in this House and nobody else’s. We decided to do it, and even worse, we decided to go into Helmand in 2006. At that time, only two British soldiers had died in combat. We went in with the hope of the then Defence Secretary that not a shot would be fired, and that we would be there for three years to supervise a bit of reconstruction.

Under all Governments since that time, we have had debate after debate. I have taken part in many of them over the years—in 2008, 2009 and so on. We have always heard optimism from Government spokesmen, and the hope that things were going right. In 2004, a Foreign Office Minister told me, “We have turned the corner on drugs.” We have turned that corner so many times that we have been around the block half a dozen times, and where are we on drugs? That was one of the justifications for going into Afghanistan: Tony Blair and Geoff Hoon said, “Of course we must go into Afghanistan, because 90% of the heroin on the streets of Britain comes from there.” Eleven years later, 90% of that heroin comes from Afghanistan, but there is a difference: it is cheaper, and there is more of it.

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

I support the troops fighting in Afghanistan, particularly my regiment, 39 Royal Artillery, who are doing an amazing job. Does the hon. Gentleman not accept, given that the title of this debate refers to the withdrawal of troops, that our troops are in Afghanistan at the invitation of an Islamic Government, and party to a United Nations resolution? Surely that is the fundamental basis on which we have sent our troops there.

[Paul Flynn]

The hon. Gentleman should reread the title of the debate; it refers to the withdrawal of combat troops. We are not suggesting that those troops should not be responsible for the essential work that must be done when withdrawing from a field of conflict. We are talking about withdrawing our combat troops in the same way that Canada, the Netherlands and other nations have withdrawn theirs.

I pay tribute to the valour and professionalism of our combat troops. They have served the country honourably, and they are as distinguished as any of their predecessors in our great military history. I speak as the proud son of a soldier.

Dan Collins lived for the Army. His e-mail address began “Army Dan”. He served in the Welsh Guards; all he ever wanted to do was be a soldier. He served in Northern Ireland, Iraq, Bosnia and Afghanistan. He was shot twice—once in the back and once in the leg—and survived. He also survived two incidents involving explosives. The terrible thing that happened to him was not coming near to death on those and other occasions; it was the nightmare of seeing his best friend’s limbs blown away. Dan Collins held him as he died and watched the life drain out of his eyes. It was a picture that tormented him. In January this year, he took his own life.

Dan Collins is not recorded on the list of the UK Afghan dead, but he died because of what we as Members of Parliament decided to do, by acts of omission or commission. Amid all our debates—they may well have wearied some, because we have repeated the truths so many times—both Governments have relied on fiction to justify the war, and they are still doing so.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree, as I am sure he does, that it is not unpatriotic to recognise that there is no military solution to the situation in Afghanistan? Recognising the bravery and courage of our armed forces, as we do, is still perfectly compatible with saying that the best way to honour them is to bring them home as soon as possible.

[Paul Flynn]

Indeed. I would say so with some passion.

[Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)]

Talking of fiction, I think that the hon. Gentleman is mistaken, in that a deal was not offered to the Taliban back in 2001. My understanding is that they were given the option of handing over bin Laden and refused. The other issue is that if he cares about the Afghan people, as I know he does, is he not concerned that if we cut and run by withdrawing our troops too quickly, there is a risk that the country could fall into civil war and the progress made could be undone rapidly?

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Flynn]

I think there is a strong risk. In fact, it is likely that the country will divide into civil war. I will discuss that later. I attended the Select Committee on Defence last week, where some striking things were said, and even more striking things were not said. No one says with confidence, “We are going to leave Afghanistan, and it is going to be happy ever after,” but half-truths and half-lies have taken hold.

One of the cruellest excuses for staying is that we must justify the deaths that have already occurred, or somehow it will be a terrible legacy. The fiction is that this has been a wonderful strategy over the past 11 years, and that in 2014 it will all be tied up tidily and we will come away, leaving the country a happy modern democracy. It is not going to happen, and it is deception to say so. To say that we must sacrifice the lives of more soldiers to justify the lives of those who have died in vain because of our decisions is another cruel deception. That is what the Government are saying. We have heard from their Front Benchers in the last few weeks that we carry on to ensure that the legacy is right. The legacy will almost certainly be a country that is divided. It could well be Karzai who succeeds: he might find a way of serving a third term.

There will be a dreadfully divided society when we go. I believe that Afghanistan will return to its traditional tribal loyalties, between the Uzbeks and the Pashtuns and Hazaras, and they will start to fall among themselves. I am sure we will find that what we are doing at the moment is the same as the Americans did with the mujaheddin—arming, training and financing a future civil war, in which we might suffer as well.

Only a hopeless optimist would believe that there will be a happy ending. We are leaving in 2014 for reasons of political expediency—here and in the United States; that is why we are getting out. The job will not be done. The job is never being done, because we set ourselves an impossible task. We went in there with the promise on drugs, which has failed hopelessly, and the promises on corruption. However, instead of ending corruption, we have made it multiply one hundredfold. We are feeding in billions of pounds that are then taken and used by the bank in Afghanistan as a mechanism for feeding the crooks in Karzai’s regime to tart up their bolt holes in Dubai. Watch how they rush out of the country when we leave. They will be leaving the chaos behind. There is no chance of a united Afghanistan when we go. But that is part of the deception that we have had.

The other excuse—perhaps the Minister will talk about it—came out during the period at the end of September, when the new Defence Secretary, who is an honourable and sincere man in what he is doing, suddenly had an attack of euphoria about Afghanistan and made some optimistic speeches. He also said that it is not right for our country to send troops to put their lives on the line when this country’s interests are not at stake and not in danger. Wonderful sentiments. He was called back to the House of Commons on 18 September when the terrible murders had taken place. It is not warfare when soldiers are killed by their own side, when they cannot trust the people next to them. There have been more than 50 deaths caused by Afghan soldiers and police. We should not ask our soldiers to face up to that. It is one thing to face an enemy, but it is dreadful for soldiers to know that their allies are likely to murder them.

The Defence Secretary was optimistic on 18 September. He came to the House and said, “We’re not going to be fooled. We’re not going to fall for the trick of the Taliban. What the Taliban want us to do is divide the Afghan troops from the NATO forces. That’s not going to happen. We’re much cleverer than that. We’re not going to do it.” The following day, he said in the House that that is exactly what we are going to do, because our American masters have told us that that is the policy. They know how morale has collapsed among many of our soldiers, with the possibility of doing regular patrols with Afghans whom they can no longer trust. The Defence Secretary saw this humiliation in one day.

I make no apologies for saying what I said on 19 September, because my expulsion from the House—which was for five weeks, not five days—was well worth it in every possible way and gave me the chance to speak in universities and to audiences throughout the country and to feel the indignation and anger of the country. Parliament is out of step with public opinion. The public want to bring our combat troops home by Christmas, and they are absolutely right; that is practical. They have lost interest in the war. There is fatigue and indifference and they can see the hopelessness of it. They have seen year after year of deception from both Governments about the war.

Nothing in the Government views put forward has been accurate. The views that stand the test of time are those expressed in this House by hon. Members who questioned the aims of the war and pointed out the impossibility. For example, in February 2006, against what the Government were saying, it was said in a Westminster Hall debate that to go into Helmand province was to stir up a hornets’ nest. It was said at the time that this was like the charge of the Light Brigade. Bush to the left of them, Blair to the right of them, hollered and thundered,

“Some one had blunder’d…

Their’s not to reason why,

Their’s but to do and die…

Into the mouth of Hell”,

into the valley of Helmand, drove the 5,000. No one believed that at the time; that was denounced as a wild exaggeration. Two of our combat troops had died then, but the number is now 477, more than three times the number that died in the charge of the Light Brigade, but in a cause of equal futility. Nothing has worked.

Improvements in women’s education are greatly exaggerated. The Government say that 4,000 women and girls were in education in the days of the Taliban and that there are 2 million now. I wish it was true. A distinguished Member of the Afghan Parliament, Malalai Joya, who has written a book about this, was a teacher of girls under the Taliban and talks about the conditions now being worse than then. She has visited this country, and anyone who knows her work will realise that there is a degree of exaggeration in the Government’s policy. Certainly, many young girls are being educated for the first time and it is a distinct improvement. However, that is the only case in which we can say there has been improvement. We have built a large number of schools and other centres for the Afghans, but they will not continue after we leave and sadly neither will the—

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. I do not necessarily agree with the train of thought, but I commend his integrity and the duration and durability of his campaign.

The hon. Gentleman is saying that although progress is being made, particularly on female education, it is not quite as much as the Government have outlined and that other physical measures would have helped. Does he not agree that the nature of the society in Helmand is such that whoever is trying to help there will be subject to attack? Does that not undermine his argument a little? Whether we have combat troops there or people engaged in achieving social betterment for the people of Helmand, they are all going to be subject to attack by the Taliban.

[Paul Flynn]

The hon. Gentleman has raised some fair, reasonable points. The problem is that there is a fixation among the great nations—the Soviet Union felt the same—that somehow, we are so powerful and rich that we can transform a 13th-century society into a modern state. That is beyond the powers of any nation. In 2001, a Member of the Russian Duma banged me on the back and said, “These British people are very clever. They have just captured Afghanistan. Wonderful! We Russians did that. We were there for 10 years. We spent billions of roubles. We killed 1 million Afghans. We lost 16,000 of our own troops. When we ran out there were 300,000 mujaheddin in the hills, and when the mujaheddin took over a couple of years later, they were the cruellest, worst Government in Afghanistan for a century.” We have committed ourselves to the same myth: that we can move in there, where traditions are deeply embedded.

The other myth, which was repeated last week by the Leader of the House and all the Ministers, is that we are in Afghanistan to protect Britain from terrorism by the Afghan Taliban. Again, that will go on and on, it will be repeated and repeated, but it is not true. I will call it a deception—I get in trouble if I call people liars. People are not being imbeciles when they say such things, but let someone justify the claims this morning. Where are the Taliban terrorists who threaten Britain? We have had terrorists from Bradford and Birmingham who have threatened Britain. We have terrorists who have huge tracts of the world in which they operate—in Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan—where they are completely out of control, and we are not there. But we say that the terrorists we are protecting Britain from are in Afghanistan and that they are Taliban.

I asked a previous Secretary of State whether he had ever spoken to any Taliban and simply asked, “Why are you killing our soldiers?” Would the Taliban reply, “Oh well, our plan is, when we have killed all your soldiers, we will come over to London and Newport to blow up your streets.” Would they say that, or would they say, “We are killing your soldiers because they came here and occupied our country by the force of their arms, and it is our sacred, religious duty as Afghans to expel them from our country. This is what our fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers did.” Look at history: this is the fourth time that we have invaded Afghanistan, and each time we have withdrawn. What has happened in history is what will happen in the future. The Afghans combine when they have a foreign enemy in their land, and when the enemy goes they fight and war among themselves.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)]

In a sense, my hon. Friend is not putting the argument as strongly as it could be put. The fact that the justification for troops remaining in Afghanistan for 10 or 11 years is so weak—and in many cases false—is more likely to create home-grown terrorism than to prevent a terrorist threat from Afghanistan. The continuation of the war is the threat, not the people in Afghanistan.

[Paul Flynn]

One of the joys of having a blog is that everything one says remains on it. I will send my hon. Friend a letter that I sent to Tony Blair in 2003. I told him that if we joined Bush’s war in Iraq, we would not reduce the threat of terrorism, but increase it. If we did that without getting a settlement in the Israeli-Palestinian situation, the Christian west would again seem to be using unfair double standards against the Muslim population of the world—that is how it would be interpreted. We have now done the same in Afghanistan. All kinds of false conclusions have been drawn, but what we have done is not reduce the threat of terrorism, but increase it by giving a cause to young Muslims, from the ones in my local mosque to those in the far corners of the world. That is quite the reverse of what we claim to be doing.

Have the young men and women who died reduced the threat of terrorism in this country? They have produced a situation such that most of the Muslim population throughout the globe believe that all we do is badly intentioned as far as the Muslim world is concerned. That foolish piece of tawdry film was made, but such is the conviction among the Muslims of the planet that there were riots in many places, because they believe that we wanted to insult the Prophet. The division between the Christian and Muslim communities of the world has been deepened by the actions of all Governments in this country and by our presence in Afghanistan. The claim about what we are doing there is not true.

Another, even uglier side of the situation was exposed recently in The Sunday Times after one of the leaders of this country’s Army, Sir—I do not know how long he will be a sir—John Kiszely, was filmed revealing his intentions and ambitions in life. This is a man who has been honoured in his country, but when asked if he was willing to prostitute his insider knowledge and his energies in order to serve the commercial cause of a foreign arms dealer, he said—he has not denied it—yes, he would go along with that, it seemed a good idea, and when he was waiting for the Queen to arrive at the Armistice service there would be a chance to talk to important Ministers, which was “a great marketing opportunity”. It is the most solemn time of year, when we mourn the deaths of the millions of our people who have given their lives in battle, and one of the people there regarded it as a great marketing opportunity.

Deeper than that, however—I am not into conspiracy theories, but the ideas come forward as one ages in life—is the question whether we have a military-industrial complex. Extraordinarily, 3,500 very senior members of the armed forces have moved into arms firms since 1996. They have done their service in war and retired at a relatively early age after 20 years, and 3,500 of them are working for arms firms. On the other side, there are members of arms firms who are deployed in the Ministry of Defence. So we have a monstrous entity, a Siamese twin, created from the military and the arms firms, whose prime objective is perpetual war. If the wars stop, their influence and profits stop and their activity ends.

Look at recent history: we went into Iraq in pursuit of non-existent weapons of mass destruction; we stayed in Helmand to protect against a non-existent Taliban terrorist threat to this country; and we are now being told that we should be prepared for a war with Iran to protect ourselves from non-existent Iranian long-range missiles carrying non-existent nuclear weapons. There are forces in the world—I do not accuse the Government of this—looking to keep the industrial-military complex going in the interests of jobs and profits, while on the other side are the Dan Collinses, the people who die in war.

I believe that we can follow the example of Canada, which lost a large number of combat troops—a higher proportion of deaths relative to its population than any other country in the world. It decided to pull out of Afghanistan, and in a debate in the Canadian Parliament all parties supported the decision. The Dutch took a bit longer—there was a bit more debate in the Netherlands about withdrawal—but again, the people who served in Afghanistan came out, their heads held high, their mission over, because they saw the hopelessness of staying longer. Why can we not do the same? That is what the country wants. We should not send another soldier into battle.

The reason that our soldiers are being sent into Afghanistan now is to act as human shields for political reputation. From the history of warfare, we know how politicians have generally played an ignoble role, and that is true at the moment. The fear is that withdrawal will expose the mistakes of the past. Constituents of mine and their relatives have to face the bitter realisation that, in the consolation they have clung to by saying, “My son died in a noble cause,” or “My daughter died for a worthy cause,” they were deceived. They will have to face the reality that there was a deep deception. Politicians shrink from that conclusion. They do not want to face up to it, because it is unbearable to think that their decisions as Ministers or shadow Ministers led to deaths that were in vain, but that truth has to be seen. There will be an inquiry, perhaps in five or 10 years’ time, about Helmand, and the unpalatable truth will come out.

Last week, I attended the meeting of the Select Committee on Defence when it discussed defence procurement. A number of questions were dealt with, and it was a rather laid-back session without a great deal of conviction on either side. I got the impression that the Committee members and the officers, who had often met, were going over riddles that had been solved a long time ago. In that session, Brigadier Doug Chalmers, who has just returned from commanding Britain’s force in Helmand, said that the Afghan commanders were “equally shocked” by the blue-on-green attacks, but that after talking to British soldiers engaged in advising and training Afghan forces he was sure the attacks had not dented their morale—a completely implausible statement. Of course it has dented their morale.

During that session, when asked by the Chairman whether he seriously believes that Afghan forces will be sustainable once NATO-led troops give up their ground combat role, the witness replied that it was

“as assumption we have to make”.

He clings to that comfort blanket because the realistic answer is unpalatable. Facing the truth is unpalatable. He cannot do that. When asked to whom the Afghan police and army will give their loyalty when we leave, he said that he hoped it will be the elected Government—a forlorn hope. I hope we can at least face reality this morning.

I was worried that the commemoration of the great war would be used in a way that again avoids the truth—that dodges the truth. I have every confidence in the Member of Parliament who is in charge, because he was one of the 12 in this Parliament who voted against the Iraq war, but I find the conclusion of the Prime Minister’s speech on the subject disturbing. He said that we are going to commemorate the war—but there were 16 million deaths: what conclusion are we going to reach? Most of us would reach the conclusion seen in the works of Siegfried Sassoon, Robert Graves or Wilfred Owen, but I do not think that is what the Prime Minister has in mind. He concluded:

“At the end of the war, a 20-year-old soldier in the great war wrote, ‘but for this war, I and all the others would have been party to oblivion like the countless myriads before us, but we shall live for ever in the result of our efforts.’”

The person who wrote that was killed the following week. He did not live for ever; he was not immortal; the Prime Minister did not even mention his name. He went into oblivion, like all the others, another of the 16 million deaths in that war. There should be no question of glorifying and fictionalising that war as we are doing with the deaths in Afghanistan.

[Guy Opperman]

No one is glorifying or celebrating the loss of any British soldier. Surely the hon. Gentleman accepts that. We are celebrating and supporting our troops and their commitment. Does he accept that well over 100,000 Afghan troops and police have been trained by British and other troops to maintain law and order to the best of their ability after withdrawal?

[Paul Flynn]

Yes, I do, but I know from a report from the United States that only 7% of them are capable of acting alone. One third desert every year. We have given them the job of guarding prisoners, but in one incident 500 prisoners escaped. Many soldiers and policemen use the drugs that we are there to eliminate. The police are hated in many parts of Afghanistan not only because they are endemically corrupt and always have been, but because, unlike the Taliban, they practise bacha bazi—a perverted abuse of young boys that has always been part of the Afghan police’s tradition. Does the hon. Gentleman really believe that the Afghan army and police will behave like British bobbies or British soldiers? That will not happen. They will revert to the cruel practices of the past. Afghanistan is a country of massacres and inter-tribal bloodshed between the Hazaris, the Baluchis and so on. The idea that we can impose our will by passing an Act in Parliament is a myth.

Whenever such issues come up on television and a new death is announced, BBC News 24 and Sky News bring in the same old regular half a dozen people—someone from the Royal United Services Institute, or a leader of our soldiers in Afghanistan—to say the same soothing words. Rarely do we hear the voices of my hon. Friends and those of us who opposed this bloody war for the past 11 years. We are rarely heard.

There is a new fiction, being used—astonishingly—by the new Secretary of State for International Development. She took me to task when I said that the result of this war is that we have lost 437 UK lives and uncounted Afghan lives, and 2,000 of our troops have come home broken in body and mind. Eight Afghans were killed in one day in September. August was the worst month for Afghan civilian deaths in the whole 11-year period, but the Government wanted to conceal that. There was no event to mark the 11th anniversary of the start of the war, but there were celebrations for the anniversary of James Bond on that same weekend. We try to hide the deaths by diverting coffins from Royal Wootton Basset and taking them around back lanes. The Government have twice tried to stop the naming of the dead at Prime Minister’s questions. It was moved to Monday, and then to Tuesday. Only because Back Benchers were angry and wanted it back where it belonged, so that it received the attention of Parliament and the press, was it moved back.

We now have a new and breathtaking fiction that we will hear about this weekend. I told the Secretary of State for International Development that 2,000 of our soldiers had come back broken in body and mind, and that if the pattern of the Falklands war and the Vietnam war continues, more of our soldiers will take their lives in the years to come than died in combat during the war.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

I am sorry that I must again knock down that myth, which keeps being repeated. I know that the Minister agrees with me on this. The claim that more Falklands veterans committed suicide than died in the war is just not true.

[Paul Flynn]

Okay, we will have this out. If my hon. Friend does not believe that of the Falklands war, he should believe it of the Vietnam war. The figures come from America—[Interruption.] My hon. Friend will have his chance to speak.

Let us see what the Government’s thinking is. This weekend, there will be worthy celebrations of an Afghan veteran who achieved a Paralympic medal. The Secretary of State for International Development told me that I was being pessimistic about the war in saying that 2,000 soldiers were broken in mind and body, when about half a dozen came back from Afghanistan and earned Paralympic medals. We are all delighted to see the success of the Paralympians—not only the victims of war, but others who have been cheated by life or nature and have achieved an eminence that we all celebrate quite rightly. However, was the right hon. Lady trying to say that the deaths of British troops, the terrible injuries, and the suicides that I mentioned are somehow justified by that? Was it somehow ennobling that 16 million people died, as the Prime Minister seemed to be saying? The man quoted by the Prime Minister did not acquire immortality; he acquired oblivion. His name was forgotten; it was not even mentioned. His life was stolen from him by the lies of politicians and the military.

We are in the same position that we were in at the end of the first world war, in which my father fought. He was shot on 10 April 1918. He was taken prisoner and his life was saved by a German patrol, but he lived to curse the military that he believed in when he was a boy of 15 who went to war, as a patriot, to protect the small nations of the planet. He could never again do what he called a man’s job, and in 1935 his pension was changed. It was a tiny pension, paid to him because his wrecked physical condition was attributable to his war wounds, but a cost-cutting Government changed the word “attributable” to “aggravated”. He went in as a perfectly fit 15-year-old, but later they halved his pension. For understandable reasons, he was bitter about those who on Armistice day stood erect, with a tear in their eye, mourning our brave boys. Quite rightly, the word that came to him was “hypocrites”.

I believe that we should mark the war and the consequences of it not in the heroic terms of Rupert Brooke and others who suffered in war. We must see the reality of what we have done and the consequences. We should bring our troops home from an unwinnable war. Rather than the picture presented of a worthy war and the half-a-dozen deserving Paralympic medallists, we should see war for what it is and in terms of the description of death in war by Wilfred Owen:

“Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud

Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, —

My friend, you would not tell with such high zest

To children ardent for some desperate glory,

The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est

Pro patria mori.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

No, it was not. Let us remember: in Afghanistan we were also dealing with a failed state that had been in chaos, with warlords and fighting since the fall of the Communist Government. In terms of the safe havens it would have given, it was right to try to bring stability and benefit to the Afghan people.

The hon. Member for Newport West refers to some kind of Christian campaign. He should remember that Muslim nations are fighting alongside our forces in Afghanistan, including the United Arab Emirates, Turkey and, one of the largest Muslim countries, Malaysia.

[Paul Flynn]

The hon. Gentleman is disgracefully fictionalising what I said and attacking an absurdity of his own creation. Does he not agree that the main question we have to deal with is why we behave as the poodle to America, in a way that Harold Wilson did not. We believe that we have to go wider and wider still; that we have to punch above our weight, which always means dying beyond our responsibilities. Why did we go into Helmand?

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman talked about conspiracy theorists, and I have to say that he makes a very good one; perhaps he ought to take it up as a career. Muslim nations are fighting alongside ISAF. To describe Afghanistan as some kind of Christian crusade is complete nonsense.

[Paul Flynn]

Mr Crausby, what the hon. Gentleman is saying is outrageous. It is an outrageous speech.

[Mr David Crausby (in the Chair)]

Order. I call Kevan Jones.

[Mr Jones]

I am sorry, but the hon. Gentleman did say it—

[Paul Flynn]

Read what I said.

[Mr Jones]

If the hon. Gentleman does not like what he says being challenged, I am sorry—

[Paul Flynn]

The facts are in a letter that I wrote in 2003 to Tony Blair. It is there, it exists and I stand by that letter. By going into Iraq and Helmand, we increased the terrorist threat. Answer that.

[Mr Jones]

I will move on to the point the hon. Gentleman made about Daniel Collins and the individuals who lost their lives in recent conflicts in Afghanistan and other places.

I accept that people have come back from Afghanistan and Iraq with mental health problems, their bodies broken and their lives transformed for ever. Something that has come through the debate is the idea that politicians and Ministers take decisions easily. They do not. The Minister will back me up on this point: one of the hardest parts of being a Defence Minister is getting the phone call, sometimes late at night, reporting that someone has lost their life in Afghanistan. A memorable weekend for me was in 2009, when I was duty Minister, and we lost eight individuals. Ministers do think about those people. It is not easy to divorce our emotions from such situations. Like me, the Minister will have met many families after such events and spoken to them, and he knows it is not easy. It is not the case that we take decisions with no thought of such events. Of the work that I did in the Ministry of Defence, I am most proud of putting in the Army recovery capability to assist those injured in the service of our country. It is a credit to the Minister that he continued that work when he was veterans Minister.

It is easy to say that nothing has improved in Afghanistan. I first went there in 2003, with you, Mr Crausby, and I have been six times since. It is very different now from the place it was in 2003: six provinces have transitioned to Afghan security control and Kabul, which was under curfew and blacked out with little activity on the streets, is today a bustling and different city. Is the security threat still there? Yes, it is. Is that only in Kabul? No, it is not; it is throughout Afghanistan.

People sometimes give the impression that Helmand has not improved. I first went to Lashkar Gah—with you, I think, Mr Crausby—in 2004. The only place that we could go was the provincial reconstruction team’s office. In the town itself, there was no market, no activity, no schools, no functioning public works or any local government. When I went back three years ago, I went to central Lashkar Gah to see the governor, and it is a very different place. Progress has been made.

I hope that I do not misquote my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West again, but I would like to touch on the point he made about education and girls. One of the most moving things I have seen was at a girls’ schools in Kabul in 2003—you were with me, Mr Crausby. We met a courageous lady who described how she taught 3,000 girls in a school; she had to do so in shifts, because a lot of the older girls had missed out on education—I do not accept that the Taliban allowed girls to be educated. I said to that lady, “What did you do when the Taliban were in power?” She said, movingly, that she and other teachers taught girls privately in their homes. I said that that must have been a brave act, and she said, “No, that wasn’t brave. My deputy head, who was executed, was brave.” Her only crime was bringing education to girls—such was her dedication to education. It is not the case that we are not making progress in girls’ education and so on.

With regards to the combat role, the Opposition have put it on record that we will support the Government on the deadline for combat missions to end in 2014. What my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West said about ending the combat role is interesting. He gave the impression that somehow we will continue our training role with the Afghanistan security service—I apologise if I am misquoting him again.

[Paul Flynn]

We can take troops out of harm’s way as we did in Iraq. We are waiting in the departure lounge there to bring the troops out. There must be a way. When we left Aden, we put the equipment together and bombed it. We have an enormously costly task, and it will take at least three years to bring out the equipment. We are handing over £1 billion of equipment to the Afghan police. What does the hon. Gentleman think £1 billion of equipment will be used for?

[Mr Jones]

All I was going to say was that the hon. Gentleman is therefore not in favour of continuing to train the Afghan security services.

[Paul Flynn]

I did not say that.

[Mr Jones]

Well, is he or is he not? If he is in favour of continuing a training role, it is not without risk. In Iraq, we had embedded teams in the Iraqi armed forces, and that was not without risk. It is not the case that somehow after 2014 we will be able to avoid all casualties.

[Paul Flynn]

Let me make it clear. In corresponding with Ministers, I have said that one of the things that we should stop is instructing our soldiers to dismantle improvised explosive devices. There is no point in finding out who made the IEDs, because if the makers were put in prison, they would be allowed to escape. There is no point in going on many of the patrols that the Americans are currently doing. People go on fruitless patrols and are killed. We have to withdraw from that combat role because it will disappear. There are other tasks that must be done before we can pull out.

[Mr Jones]

I understand that point. All I am saying is that that is not without risk. In 2014, even in a training role, our armed forces will not be out of harm’s way. As for the way forward, building up the Afghan security forces will be the key element, and progress is being made on that, but I actually agree with my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion that what we need to achieve from the process is a political solution. That is about engaging not only with the Afghan people but with Afghanistan’s neighbours.

I completely disagree with the conspiracy theory nonsense that there is a military-industrial complex and that people actually want war to ensure that they can sell weapons. The idea that senior military individuals get some pleasure out of war is wrong. The military that I have worked with in the Ministry of Defence feel every single loss as hard as anyone else, and they certainly do not want to put people in harm’s way if they can avoid it.

Finally, let me touch on drones—unmanned aerial vehicles. A common impression is given—the hon. Lady did it again this morning—that these weapons are under no control and are firing at will at any targets. May I suggest that she ask the MOD for a briefing on targeting policy? She might be surprised to learn that there is a legal mandate before any target is chosen. Lawyers sit in—

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Flynn]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Jones]

I will not, because I need to give the Minister time to reply. In conclusion, people talk about winning wars, but it is not about that in Afghanistan. I never liked the expression “the war on terror”, because this is an ongoing struggle with Islamic terrorism not just in Afghanistan, but in the rest of the world for many generations to come. I pay tribute to our armed forces, and hope that we all think not just of those who have lost their lives and have been injured but of those who are on service today in Afghanistan.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew Robathan)]

It is a pleasure to serve under you, Mr Crausby. I think this is the first time you have chaired a debate in which I have taken part. May I begin by being the first Minister to congratulate President Obama on his re-election? I recall that his first campaign slogan, four years ago, was “hope”, which is of significance in our debate today. Of course, his re-election is hugely significant for the whole international security assistance force policy in Afghanistan.

I gently say to the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), who has raised this important and emotive debate, that he will never find me, or almost any former soldier, glorifying war. I can promise him that those who have seen warfare do not wish to repeat it.

I begin by echoing the sentiments of those who have already spoken by paying tribute to the brave men and women of our armed forces. They operate in Afghanistan, the most demanding of environments, and every day they demonstrate immense personal courage. Since the operations in Afghanistan began in 2001, we have sadly seen 437 service personnel make the ultimate sacrifice, and this week, more than ever, we should remember them. Their loss is keenly felt, and on behalf of everyone in this Chamber I extend our sympathies to their family and friends.

In the face of such sacrifice by our troops, we should be in no doubt about the importance of the mission. We are in Afghanistan for one overriding reason: to protect our own national security by helping the Afghans take control of their own. Afghanistan is currently the main focus of the Ministry of Defence, and our strategy is designed to enable the country effectively to manage its own security and prevent its territory from ever again becoming a safe haven for international terrorism.

At the Kabul conference in July 2010, President Karzai stated his ambition that the Afghan national security forces would have full security responsibility across Afghanistan by the end of 2014. That is an Afghan objective, which we fully support in NATO. It is being delivered through the strategy of phased transition of security responsibility from ISAF to the ANSF, which was agreed at the NATO summit in Lisbon in 2010. The strategy allows ISAF gradually and responsibly to draw down its forces as it completes its mission by the end of December 2014.

The process of transition to the Afghans is now well advanced and on track to complete by the end of 2014. A trained force of more than 335,000, the ANSF is taking an ever-increasing role in its own domestic security. The ANSF will soon have lead responsibility in areas that are home to three quarters of the population, including all 34 provincial capitals and the three districts that make up Task Force Helmand. That is a clear demonstration that the Afghans are well on track to managing their own security.

[Paul Flynn]

I have heard this speech 1,000 times. The Minister took notes during the debate, so will he answer anything that was raised? Will he tell us precisely what the threat to our constituents is from the Taliban in Afghanistan?

[Mr Robathan]

I am coming to that.

[Mr Robathan]

I am afraid that is something on which neither I nor any other Minister will speculate. Of course, as we understand it President Karzai will be standing down next year before the presidential elections.

In the first six months of this year, the ANSF led 80% of conventional operations in Afghanistan. ANSF troops are deploying in formed units, carrying out their own operations and planning complex security arrangements. They are also carrying out 85% of their own training, and in the areas covered by all three tranches of transition there has been a year-to-date decrease of enemy-initiated attacks.

As transition progresses, the campaign shifts from an ISAF-led counter-insurgency mission to an Afghan one. For ISAF, this means that the mission is gradually evolving from one primarily focused on combat to one based on the concepts of training, advising and assisting. The security force assistance model is the mechanism that oversees this process. It has been implemented this year and will be fully operational by mid-2013, when we expect the final Afghan districts to enter the transition process. That will mark a point of huge significance, when the Afghans will be in the security lead across the country.

[Paul Flynn]

Could the Minister perhaps try to learn the concept of “debate”, whereby we give arguments and he answers them? Can he desert his civil service script for a moment and answer the points that were made in the debate?

[Mr Robathan]

I think the hon. Gentleman will find that I will get every point that he has made on the record answered.

The security force assistance model has a progressively lighter relationship with the ANSF, it will be generally smaller and it will enable greater flexibility, allowing troop-contributing nations such as the UK gradually to draw down their force levels, and that is the subject we are debating today.

In Helmand, the ANSF now provides security with confidence and real ability in the densely populated areas of Lashkar Gah and Nad-e Ali. ISAF has physically moved out of those areas, withdrawing combat troops and handing over our bases as we move to the fringes. Since April, we have been able to reduce the number of UK bases in Helmand from 80 to 39 as the Afghans assume day-to-day responsibility.

In the third district of Nahr-e Saraj, the Afghans are now firmly in the lead in Gereshk town and along the strategically important highway 1. Our taskforce in Helmand now consists of two distinct parts: an adviser network, and a manoeuvre element that still operates in a combat role, where necessary, to disrupt the insurgency. This has provided the ANSF with the time and space to develop its own capabilities and build local national confidence. It has seized that opportunity and the results really are there for all to see, and I echo what the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) said in that regard.

Recent independent polling has shown that 58% of Helmandis now see the ANSF as the main provider of their security. I heard what the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) said about distrust of the ANSF; I think that is changing. We only need to look at the growth of the market towns, the thriving bazaars and the volume of traffic on the roads—they are clear evidence of the success of the local economy and indeed of the security situation. The efforts of our armed forces and the whole of the Afghan Government have meant that there are now almost 6 million children in school, which is up from 1 million in 2001. Of those children, 38% are girls, which is up from almost none in 2001.

Democracy is taking hold—perhaps not perfectly—and voters can look forward to choosing their own future, rather than having it dictated to them by the very worst of authoritarian regimes. The security gains made by our armed forces have transformed the future of Afghanistan. Our commitment to support Afghanistan is not solely military and it will endure beyond the cessation of our combat operations.

Helmand remains a difficult and challenging environment, and the insurgency is a constant threat. There is absolutely no room for complacency but there is a tangible record of improvement, driven by the UK troops that have been deployed in Helmand since 2006. If I might turn to our armed forces, they can be rightly proud of their achievement.

The reality on the ground is that Afghan forces are increasingly taking the lead. That is the progress that allows us gradually to reduce our force levels and to withdraw our combat troops by the end of 2014, and the Prime Minister has been very clear about that since he was elected in 2010. There will not be a cliff-edge reduction of our troops in 2014, which means that our force levels will be constantly kept under review and reduced.

The Defence Secretary set out in April that UK forces will draw down by 500 to 9,000 by the end of this year. We expect to make gradual further reductions to our force levels next year, but no further decisions have yet been made as to the exact numbers. Any further decisions will be taken by the National Security Council and will take into account military advice, the pace of transition and conditions on the ground, but we are firmly committed to the strategy and time scales agreed at Lisbon, and to the ISAF principle of “In together, out together.” As NATO’s Secretary-General set out earlier this year, the decisions made at Lisbon

“will remain the bedrock of our strategy”.

However, that does not signal the end of our support for Afghanistan and its people. At the Chicago summit and the Tokyo conference, the international community committed to give long-term support to the Afghans as they shape their country over the “transformation decade”. NATO will establish a new, non-combat mission in Afghanistan, in which this country will play its part. In addition to our funding commitments, the UK will continue to support the development of the ANSF in our role as the lead coalition partner at the new Afghan national army officer academy. Although Afghanistan will continue to face many complex challenges, taken as a package this support will help to underpin Afghanistan’s future and security.

To those people, like the hon. Member for Newport West, who say, “Why don’t you bring our troops home?”, I say, “We are bringing them home—they are coming home”, but we are not going to cut and run. We will come out with the task completed and with British troops holding their heads high, because we are leaving behind us well-trained Afghan forces to defend their country and to protect our security.

The campaign in Afghanistan has not been without significant cost and we will face difficult days ahead. It is appropriate that we hold this debate during the week of national remembrance. On Sunday, I am sure that we will all be paying tribute to those who have made the ultimate sacrifice in service to their country. In total, 437 servicemen and women have been killed in Afghanistan, bringing pain to their families and friends. Who has not shed a tear for the young men and women who have fallen in the service of our country? Who has not been moved by those who have been injured but who have displayed extraordinary determination—such as was seen at the Paralympics—to rebuild their lives?

The Government were not in power when the mission in Afghanistan began, but we have a responsibility to see it through. The UK’s national security has been safeguarded by the sacrifices and efforts of British troops in Afghanistan. We will not undermine that by abandoning Afghanistan before the task is complete.

[Paul Flynn]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Robathan]

I am just drawing to a close.

We seek to leave behind a stable Afghanistan, which is able to manage its own security effectively. As we look ahead to Remembrance Sunday, it is fitting that all of us here pay tribute to those who have served our country in the most difficult of circumstances. We should honour those who continue to serve, protecting our national interests at home and abroad—day by day, night by night—as we stand here. We remember them and their efforts.

I personally remember soldiers of mine—friends—who were killed in the Falklands, in Northern Ireland and in the Gulf. I have written letters to widows and comforted families, and it is a pretty ghastly thing to have to do. I say to all people here in Westminster Hall today that about 200 yards away, in St Margaret’s church, there is an exhibition of war paintings by Arabella Dorman. One especially powerful painting is entitled “I am strong”, and it commemorates a young man—Sean Reeve—who was killed four years ago in Afghanistan. Typically courageously, he went out on duty just as he was about to go home to England, having volunteered for an extra patrol, and he was then killed. I met his mother last night. Ministers in this House—in this Government and in the last Government—are not immune to the emotions that these things bring. We do not send people to die lightly. We understand the anguish of the bereaved and their real pain. I am sure that all of us here have met the families of those who serve, and the families of those who have fallen. It is fitting that we salute their efforts, which were made on our behalf.

Let me reassure all those who have spoken today, and all those in this House, that this Government intend to finish what the previous Government started. We will bring our troops home, knowing that we will leave behind an Afghanistan that is a better Afghanistan with a brighter future.

[Mr David Crausby (in the Chair)]

Order.

[Paul Flynn]

I think there is more time left, Chairman, for the debate. We finish at 11 o’clock. Can I just say—?

[Mr David Crausby (in the Chair)]

Order. The Minister has now sat down and the debate has ended.

[Paul Flynn]

But there is still time for the debate—

[Mr David Crausby (in the Chair)]

Order, Mr Flynn. The Minister has now sat down. You have had a good opportunity during the debate; you have made lots of contributions. I intend now to move on to the next debate, because the Member who has secured it and the Minister who will respond are present.