Deaths in Police Custody

Mike Penning Excerpts

Wednesday 10th September 2014 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main, even though it is obviously enormously sad that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) has had to bring—quite rightly, in her opinion, and probably in mine—this case to Westminster Hall this afternoon.

Let me say at the outset that any death, whether or not in custody, is regrettable, and a death in custody is enormously regrettable. It must be enormously traumatic for the Burrell family, and I fully appreciate the hon. Lady’s concerns. However, I cannot agree with many of her comments, because I think that she has almost predetermined what will be in the report from the IPCC, which has not yet even been released. I know that you, Mrs Main, said that we had to be careful in talking about the ongoing case, which is going to go before the coroner’s court for the inquest. The IPCC report is not out yet. That is the independent—I stress, independent—report.

There are some areas where I do agree, so let us do the bits that I do not agree with first and then we can move on. I do not recognise, as a constituency MP, the view of the IPCC and police as being above the law. I have patrolled with the police for more than 20 years, in many different capacities, and one of the things that I have found is this. There are, clearly, bad people within the police and bad people within our community. It is our job to make sure that we get them out of the police; they should not have got there in the first place in many cases. But the vast majority of the police—I want to put this on the record—99.9% of the police in this country, do a fantastic job for us, keeping us safe, not just in this place but in our homes and our businesses throughout the country.

This is an enormously difficult subject. The hon. Lady used quite emotive language in her speech, and I partially understand why, but not fully. May I touch, before I make progress with some other things, on the question of deaths in custody of people from the black and ethnic minority community? When I first thought about deaths in custody, my first thought was that that meant people who were being held by police in custody cells, but that is not always what happens. It is important to put on record that a death in custody occurs where the police have come into contact with somebody, even briefly, who has subsequently died. The IPCC will immediately become involved in such cases. The cases are sometimes enormously complex, much more so than I understand, although I am not as close to the case as the hon. Lady is. The way in which the news is communicated to families and loved ones is critical, and that is something that I am interested in looking at. I will come on to the IPCC review in a moment.

I will return to the hon. Lady’s comments about deaths in custody, particularly regarding people from the black and ethnic minority community. The IPCC did a 10-year study on deaths in custody between 1989 and 2008-09, and it found that 22 of those who died during that period were black. The view expressed in the report, which is a public document, is that that was in line, sadly, with the ethnic make-up of the detainee population. In 2010-11, there were, overall, 20 deaths in custody, one of which was sadly of an individual from the black community. In 2013-14, there were a total of 11 deaths in custody; clearly that is still too many, but the number of deaths has nearly halved since 2011. One of those deaths was, in the terminology used by the report—I do not like this terminology—of a mixed-race detainee. I am only using the language that has been given to me by lawyers, and I apologise for it. I am not very politically correct myself.

To recap, in 2010-11, there were 20 deaths in custody; in 2011-12, there were 15; in 2012-13, there were also 15; and in 2013-14, there were 11. I think that the report of this debate will show that the hon. Lady spoke about “growing” deaths in custody, although I may not be using her exact words. I know that black and ethnic minority groups feel that the situation is disproportionate, but the evidence that has been presented to me does not support that view.

[Shabana Mahmood]

I would like to clarify that I said that there was growing concern about deaths in police custody. I was talking not about the number of deaths that occur, but about the over-representation of people with mental health issues and about how trust in the police is being eroded in BME communities.

[Mike Penning]

I understand the point that the hon. Lady makes, and I will come on to talk about some work that I have been doing with a Minister in the Department of Health on mental illnesses. I repeat that the evidence shows that there were 20 deaths in custody in 2010-11—too many—one of which was of someone from the black community. Of the 15 people who died in 2011-12, one was a black individual and one was from a mixed-race family. In 2012-13, there were 15 deaths, one of which was of someone from a mixed-race family. In 2013-14, one of the 11 people who died was from a mixed-race family. The evidence speaks for itself. I understand how the situation is sometimes perceived, but it is our job as constituency MPs to ensure that our work is based on evidence rather than perception. It is the job of the police to do the same.

I am a new Minister in the Home Office, and I make the hon. Lady the same offer that my predecessor made: it would be good to meet outside the format of a debate to discuss the issues that she has raised. It is difficult for me to comment on the case, because the inquest will soon come before the coroner’s court and because the IPCC has not yet published its report.

There is no doubt that a review is needed into the IPCC’s work. That is not a criticism of the commission, but we need to look carefully at the nature of the work that comes before it. As a constituency MP, I regularly see cases where my constituents say, “I would like this case to go to the IPCC,” but I often look at the cases and think that they should have been resolved with the constabulary, rather than going to the IPCC. I am looking at guidance on that matter at the moment, and it will form part of the review of what the IPCC should look at. These cases are often complex, as is the case that the hon. Lady has raised. Before anything could happen, it was essential to ensure that any trial was not prejudiced, which is why the Crown Prosecution Service considered the matter before it progressed to an inquest. Of course, the IPCC now needs to report.

I do not believe that the previous Administration thought that the IPCC was flawed or broken and needed tearing up and throwing away, and I do not think that either. Is the IPCC perfect? No, it is not. Do we need to do some work with it? Yes, we do.

Without going into the details of the case that the hon. Lady has raised, there is one area that we need to work on, which has been the poor relation for many years. When I was a fireman in Essex, I used to go to road traffic collisions, which used to be called road traffic accidents. If someone was badly injured in an incident, we would extricate them as quickly as we could, the medics would do their job and the person would be taken to hospital for the treatment that they needed. The simple fact is that if someone has a mental illness, invariably the police will be called and the individual will end up in a cell rather than somewhere where they can get the medical help that they need. Is that the fault of the police? No, because their job is not to diagnose a mental illness but to make sure that the individual and the public are safe.

I was on patrol in Holborn only the other day when we received a call and went out. We thought that we would be dealing with a domestic incident, but the gentleman was having what his family described as an episode. The police did everything in their powers not to arrest him, but to take him to a hospital where he could get the correct treatment. I stress that the correct treatment is important. I have been working with the Department of Health to ensure that in such circumstances, people are not simply taken to an A and E department that does not have the required expertise, in which case they will be back out on the streets again five minutes later.

My view, and the view of the Health Minister with responsibility for the initiative, is that it is crucial that people with mental illnesses are treated as well as those with any other illnesses. People with mental health issues may also have learning difficulties and addictions to alcohol or drugs. The police still have a responsibility, however, not only to try to understand the circumstances of people who are brought before them, but to make sure that they can be taken to trained individuals with the right expertise. There are interesting projects going on at the moment. In Herefordshire, experts in the field such as nurses with mental health experience go out on patrol, particularly on Friday nights. It is important to have that sort of expertise alongside our patrolling police, and it provides a source of knowledge to ensure that the public feel safe.

I think that there is a real problem with the public, as well. The Olympics clearly showed us that public understanding of people with physical disabilities had really moved forward. The Paralympics was a great way of showing the world the wonderful things that people with long-term conditions and disabilities can do. However, all the evidence suggests that, although people with physical disabilities have seen such benefits, people with mental health issues and learning difficulties have not. We, as politicians, should do everything we can to tackle that.

I would love to have gone into a lot more detail, but with the ongoing investigations into the case, it would have been difficult for me to do so. I have every sympathy with the family. If I was the constituency MP, I would be sitting where the hon. Lady is sitting and asking exactly the sorts of questions that she has asked, but I always stand at the Dispatch Box—or, in this case, in this wonderful room. I just managed to get here in time, even though I went to the usual one first; it is a good job I always turn up early.

We are dealing with incredibly complicated issues, which will not be resolved in a half-hour debate. I look forward to meeting with the hon. Lady, and perhaps with the family, to see how we can move forward. Let us first see what we agree on, and then work on the other issues as we go forward.

North Wales Police and Anonymous Blog Site

Mike Penning Excerpts

Tuesday 9th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning)]

It is a privilege and an honour for me to take this first opportunity to respond to a debate as the new policing Minister. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on securing a debate that concerns an enormously important issue. As he knows, there are aspects of that issue on which I can comment openly, and others in regard to which I am subject to a degree of restriction.

The part of Wales that my hon. Friend represents is so beautiful, and so brilliantly represented by him, that some of my constituents continue to leave my constituency for the area around Conwy. Indeed, some of my friends have retired there. My friends are still my friends, but I am envious of those who have gone to my hon. Friend’s constituency, and envious of the fact that he represents them and I do not. That must indeed be a very beautiful part of the world. I also know that my hon. Friend is enormously popular there. The fact that his constituents stood up and spoke out against the accusations that were made about him shows what a fantastic constituency Member of Parliament he is. If only more constituents recognised the hard work and dedication of MPs, perhaps we would have a better reputation around the country.

Let me add, Mr Deputy Speaker, that no matter what the job is—whether you are a Member of Parliament, a member of the Government, a doctor, a nurse or a policeman—no one has the right to level pernicious accusations against you. No one has the right to threaten your family, no one has the right to “troll” you, and no one has the right to create the atmosphere that has clearly been created in my hon. Friend’s constituency.

My hon. Friend raised several questions in his short speech. The best news that I have heard today is that the site is now down and is no longer operating. Let us hope that continues to be the case—not least, perhaps, as a result of some of the comments that I am about to make.

Let me also take my first opportunity as policing Minister to praise the police throughout this great country of ours, both in the devolved parts of our Union and in England and Wales. The fact is that 99.9% of the police do a fantastic job for us day in, day out, on 365 days of the year. I think that more politicians should stand up and say the sort of things that my hon. Friend has said today, although he is obviously concerned about the actions of some—and it is always the “some” whom we talk about: those who have let us down, let themselves down or let their forces down, rather than the vast majority who, as I have said, do such a fantastic job for us day in, day out.

My hon. Friend asked me whether harassment, or trolling, was an offence. It is, and there are myriad pieces of legislation to deal with it, including those to which my hon. Friend referred on the basis of his research. We have the Defamation Act 2013, the Communications Act 2003, the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 and the Malicious Communications Act 1998, to name but a few. It is therefore probably inaccurate to say that nothing can be done should evidence be there—although I stress that it is up to the police to conduct their investigations and to decide whether a criminal act has taken place—and I can answer one of my hon. Friend’s most forthright questions by saying “Yes, the legislation is there, on the statute book.”

Let me now turn to the guidance that is provided for the police, and the question of whether the way in which it is used in north Wales is different from the way in which it is used in other parts of the country. I do not know exactly how it is being interpreted in north Wales, but it is being interpreted around the country, and prosecutions have taken place, and continue to take place, on the basis of the guidance that has been issued to police authorities. A lead chief constable is responsible for these matters through the Association of Chief Police Officers. It is clear to me that, if prosecutions are taking place in other parts of the country—I personally have not seen anything like this in my constituency; I have come close but not anything like what has been described today—I would expect, as a constituency MP, the police to do a full investigation in my constituency, and in any other part of our great nation.

To answer directly again the question: is the guidance in place? Yes it is. Do I as the Minister for policing feel that that guidance is robust and simple and has been explained? Yes I do, clearly, as other forces are ensuring that it is being used in that way. Nothing is perfect and I am sure that we can find other examples around the country where people think a prosecution should have taken place and it has not. We are not in a perfect world. It is not for politicians, rightly, to tell the police what they should and should not do. The Crown Prosecution Service and the Director of Public Prosecutions are involved in the ongoing discussions that we have on this area. Online jurisdiction and what can and cannot be used is a very difficult issue.

I always do this when I stand at Dispatch Box. I am now in my fifth role in this Parliament so I must be doing something wrong. I think I have broken all records—five Departments in four years in one Parliament. I try to stand here sometimes and think to myself, “What would I think if I were the constituency MP who had raised this issue today?” First, I would be on the Back Benches raising the issue in an Adjournment debate. It is absolutely right and proper that this issue has been brought to the House this evening. What would I do? I would be complaining on behalf of my constituents and of myself; my hon. Friend represents himself in his constituency as the MP for that constituency. I would make a formal complaint with my concerns to the chief constable in North Wales.

I know that sounds complicated sometimes. Often constituents say to me and the Department, “You are complaining to the people who you think have done something wrong.” That is right. It is right and proper that, if mistakes have been made and concerns exist, any force, whether that be the police force or the local health authority, has the opportunity to address the concerns of our constituents. If we are not happy, in this particular case, it should go to the Independent Police Complaints Commission. That is, in my opinion, where this should go, if my hon. Friend is not happy, and clearly he is not, with the response that he has had from North Wales.

It would be difficult for me to go further than that because the Independent Police Complaints Commission is what it says on the tin—independent. I have met the chairman and chief executive only in the last couple of days, naturally. Although we have a review on the ongoing role of the IPCC and what sort of complaints it should deal with, in my opinion, that is exactly where this complaint should be going.

To sum up, I am really sad that my hon. Friend has had to raise the issue. He has done the right thing in doing so. It is a tiny minority of police in this country who cause problems. If that is the case in North Wales, and it has not been addressed by the correct complaints procedure, my hon. Friend has the right and should take it to the IPCC.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mike Penning Excerpts

Tuesday 9th September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

4. What steps he plans to take to enforce the code of practice for victims of crime.

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning)]

May I, with your permission, Mr Speaker, pay my own personal tribute to Jim Dobbin, as it is my first opportunity at the Dispatch Box to do so? Jim was a personal friend and a colleague of all of us in the House. He would, I am sure, have been here at Justice questions because they are the sort of questions he would have been here for. He was a great man.

I would have asked you, Mr Speaker, if I could group Questions 4 and 8, but I do not need to do so now, so I will just answer Question 4. The victims code is a statutory document that places clear duties on criminal justice agencies. We will monitor criminal justice agencies’ compliance with the victims code and my Department will report back in March 2015.

[Debbie Abrahams]

I thank the Minister for his very kind remarks and support him in what he said. Jim Dobbin was a neighbour and a long-standing friend of mine, and a thoroughly decent man who will be sorely missed.

The murdered police constable Nicola Hughes was a constituent of mine. Her father Bryn has set up a charity in her name, particularly to support the families of murder victims. Will the Justice Secretary meet me and Bryn not only to hear about his experience but to discuss how families of murder victims can be better supported, particularly during the court process?

[Mike Penning]

I will be more than happy to meet the hon. Lady and her constituent. I have been very closely involved with this area for many years, not least because my constituent Billy Dove was murdered right outside my constituency office, and the family set up a charity straight after that. I have had the honour of chairing the victims panel. I will be more than happy to meet the hon. Lady and see the work that is being done brilliantly, I am sure, in her constituency.

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

May I add my condolences to the family of the late Mr Jim Dobbin? He will be sorely missed.

As the Minister will be aware, victims are often secondarily victimised by poor treatment within the justice system. It seems that whereas perpetrators have rights, victims have only codes and charters. What plans does he have to improve the treatment of victims of domestic violence, including those who suffer from coercive control, which I hope—I am still campaigning—will become subject to a law in the coming months?

[Mike Penning]

I pay tribute to the campaigning that the right hon. Gentleman has done over many years. I look forward to him knocking on my door in the next couple of weeks, I am sure, to come in and see me as the new Minister. We are doing everything we possibly can to reverse the way victims are treated, or perceived to be treated, within the criminal justice system. In the past couple of weeks I have used the analogy that we should look at the other end of the telescope and put victims first. That is why the victims panel was set up by the Secretary of State. I look forward to working with many of the victims groups so that we can reverse the feeling that they are being treated unjustly.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

May I press the Minister on the countless victims in towns and cities up and down our country who were forced into illegal sex—underage sex—and who were raped and pushed into child prostitution? Up and down the country, they have got no justice. Will this code help them? Will he join my appeal for an early, major debate in the House on that issue as soon as possible?

[Mike Penning]

I will be more than happy to respond to a debate on that very important subject, but it is above my pay grade to decide what the business in the House will be—that decision is for the business managers. The Backbench Business Committee has been enormously successful in this Parliament. I will be more than happy to respond to any debate proposed by the business managers.

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

I welcome the victims Minister to his post. I know he will share the House’s concern about the number of young people coming forward who have been victims of horrendous abuse. It is very important that they get the support they need to ensure that justice is done. That includes victims being able to give evidence away from a court setting via a video link. There are only a handful of remote sites across the country, and the vast majority are located within court buildings. The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children has highlighted the traumatic impact that this can have on young victims. One mother described her daughter Iris’s court experience as being “like a second abuse”. Will the Government bring forward plans for more of these remote sites, and will the Minister do more to ensure that victims’ rights are protected, as we have proposed, with a victims law?

[Mike Penning]

I am obviously very aware of the NSPCC’s campaign, not least because, quite rightly, I am signing an awful lot of letters for colleagues at the moment. I have also, in these early days, already met the chief executive and chairman of the NSPCC. We are coming to the end of a pilot of remote video evidence and I am waiting for the evidence of how it has worked. I would like to roll it out as fast as possible, if the evidence shows—as I think it will—that it should be.

[Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)]

5. What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of governance and security at HMP Northumberland.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning)]

With permission, Mr Speaker, I will not read out the answer I read out earlier when, as is understandable, the hon. Lady was not in her place. I just reiterate that the victims code is a statutory document that places clear duties on criminal justice agencies. The Department will report to the Criminal Justice Board in March 2015. As I said to the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), I will keep an enormously close eye on how this is being done, and if we need more powers we will take them. We intend to spend £100 million, which includes a lot of money coming from the perpetrators of such crimes, across all Departments to help victims.

[Stella Creasy]

On 14 January, the Minister’s colleagues in the Foreign Office wrote to me extolling the virtues of having signed the EU directive that means the families of victims of crimes that happen in Europe should expect to be able to enjoy the same rights as they would in their home countries, and on 7 April they wrote to tell me that it is the Minister’s responsibility to make that happen. Will he therefore meet me, my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) and the families involved in the Tyrell Matthews-Burton case? The victim’s family and the witnesses have all been told that they have to raise the funds themselves to be able to go over to Malia to give evidence in this terrible murder trial. I am sure that he would agree that the victim’s voice not being heard is not what we would expect to see at home.

[Mike Penning]

Of course, whether the new Minister or not, I will be more than happy to meet the hon. Lady and her constituents, and the other hon. Lady’s constituents—I think that is the sort of role I should be playing—and look at the case closely, which I have not yet had an opportunity to do.

[Mr Speaker]

I think that the hon. Lady was referring to an hon. Gentleman, if memory serves me correctly. I would not want the Minister to suffer from gender confusion.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

Previous grooming trials have been characterised by intimidatory and vicious cross-examination by defence barristers, and often by multiple defence barristers. Will the Minister assure us that steps are being taken to stop that happening?

[Mike Penning]

Although I cannot interfere in the role of barristers in the courts, we are looking at the matter very closely and have piloted the use of video conferencing so that evidence can be given remotely or from behind a screen. It is vital that victims have the confidence to become witnesses, and I will do everything in my power to ensure that they have the support they need to do so.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Colin McGinty was murdered almost 14 years ago. His parents recently gave a victim statement remotely, but the chair of the parole panel forgot to turn off his microphone and they overheard him say that their views would be disregarded. No doubt the Justice Secretary is explaining what happened. They have received an apology for what happened, which was incredibly distressing, as Members will understand. Can the Minister confirm that the Justice Secretary’s written advice is that victim statements are an important part of rehabilitation because of their role in the demonstration of empathy and remorse by offenders, and will he ensure that that is put clearly to the Parole Board and to parole panels?

[Mike Penning]

I have not yet had an opportunity to look at the full details of the case the hon. Gentleman refers to, but I know that there is an ongoing investigation to find out how it happened and to ensure that it does not happen again. I can only emphasise, as a human being, that it must have been horrible to hear that being said in the background. We must ensure that it does not happen again. The Secretary of State met the group only last week to discuss the matter.

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

9. What steps his Department has taken to prevent insurance fraud.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)]

15. What assessment he has made of the potential merits of joint working between probation trusts and police forces to reduce reoffending.

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning)]

I think we are all agreed that to tackle reoffending to protect the public, it is critical for the national probation service and community rehabilitation companies to work very closely with our local police forces.

[Jesse Norman]

Operation Castlemain is a police-led initiative to tackle street drinking in Hereford. Local probation officers and other agencies join police on the streets in areas where street drinkers are known to congregate. The result is a better environment for the public, closer working relations between the police and probation service and a higher profile for probation with people at risk of offending. Will the Minister join me in praising this excellent example of joint working?

[Mike Penning]

I will praise the work going on in my hon. Friend’s constituency and work that is going on around the country. Joint working and joint partnerships are important. I would also like to pay tribute to street pastors who do a fantastic job in constituencies, including my own.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

16. What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of open prisons.

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

T4. The Secretary of State has long argued that we should increase magistrates’ sentencing powers to 12 months for one offence. I hope that he can now clear up some confusion on the issue, because that provision was a manifesto commitment which was then abolished under the Secretary of State’s disastrous predecessor. My amendment proposing the introduction of the new sentencing power was rejected by the Government as recently as June, but the Prime Minister has now told the Magistrates Association at a reception that it will happen before the next election. Can we clear up the question of where we actually are, and can we crack on with doing something that would save money and would also be incredibly popular?

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning)]

I love doing things that are enormously popular and I also like doing things that are right. Magistrates’ sentencing powers are being reviewed and I will be able to come back to the House at its very early convenience, I hope, with some ideas.

[Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State has previously said, and he said it again today, how proud he is of his prison reforms. The Ministry of Justice’s own figures show that suicides are up 69% in a year. More people died in prison last year than ever before. Self-harm is up 27% since 2010. Serious assaults are up 30%. The riot squad has been called out 72% more times than it was in 2010 and one in five prisons are now rated as “of concern”, double the figure 12 months earlier. We heard from my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) that four reports by the chief inspector of prisons have been pretty damning; the reports on Glen Parva, Doncaster, Isis and Wormwood Scrubs. What will it take for the Secretary of State to accept that we are in the midst of a prison crisis?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mike Penning]

I think the hon. Lady might be pushing it a bit with our diary secretaries in trying to do that. If she wants a speedy meeting with me, I suggest that we have that meeting. I will get a full briefing from my colleagues and I will know exactly what is going on.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

Further to the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), will the Lord Chancellor join me on a visit to Bury and Rochdale magistrates court so that he can see for himself the excellent work that the magistrates are doing and see that the capacity exists for their sentencing powers to be increased from six months to 12 months?

--- Later in debate ---

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

May I ask the victims Minister to meet me and to review the handling and sentencing of repeat antisocial behaviour offenders? In my constituency, there are two cases of people on year-long ASBOs, but the victims feel that the sentencing has been carried out solely on the basis of the most recent offence rather than the pattern of behaviour.

[Mike Penning]

As well as being the victims Minister, I am also the police and criminal justice Minister. I am sure, given that portfolio, that my hon. Friend and I will have a very good meeting.

[Mr Speaker]

Last but not least, Julie Hilling.

Crime Reduction Policies

Mike Penning Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd September 2014 Written Statements

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning)]

I will today publish the response to the Justice Committee’s first report of Session 2014-15: “Crime Reduction Policies—a co-ordinated approach?”

The Government are proud of their strong record at reducing crime. The most recent figures from the crime survey for England and Wales show that overall crime has fallen by 62% since its peak in 1995, and is now at the lowest level since the survey began in 1981.

The Government have put robust measures in place to ensure that crime continues to fall; offenders receive robust punishments; and that the unacceptably high rates of reoffending are driven down. We are also placing high-quality education at the centre of youth custody to prevent future offending.

The public and victims deserve a fair and transparent justice system that effectively deters and punishes offenders, and tackles the stubbornly high rates of reoffending and this is the primary focus of our transforming rehabilitation reforms.

We are opening up the market to a diverse range of providers to ensure that we get the best out of the public, voluntary and private sectors, at the local as well as national level. Bids to run the community rehabilitation companies were received at the end of June and we look to have a healthy competition in all contract package areas, having received over 80 bids, with an average of four bidders per area. The new payment incentives we will introduce for market providers will also ensure a relentless focus on reforming offenders, giving providers flexibility to do what works but only paying them in full for real reductions in reoffending.

Under our reforms, for the first time in recent history virtually every offender released from custody will receive statutory supervision and rehabilitation in the community, to finally address the glaring gap that sees 50,000 short-term prisoners released onto the streets each year with little or no support, free to go back to their criminal ways.

We are also putting in place an unprecedented nationwide “through the prison gate” resettlement service, meaning the majority of offenders will be given continuous support by one provider from custody into the community. We will support this by ensuring that most offenders are held in a prison designated to their area for at least three months prior to release.

Finally, we have created a new public sector National Probation Service, working to protect the public and building upon the expertise and professionalism which are already in place.

Copies of the paper will be available in the Vote Office and in the Printed Paper Office. The document will also be online at:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/crime-reduction-policies-a-coordinated-approach-the-governments-response

Alleged Police Crimes (Investigations)

Mike Penning Excerpts

Monday 21st July 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry) on securing the debate this evening. As an ex-fireman myself who regularly used to attend such instances, my thoughts and prayers are with the families and particularly with Ben. I hope that my hon. Friend is wrong and that Ben makes a partial, if not a full, recovery.

As the new Policing Minister, I was very concerned when I saw that this debate was due to take place, so I have taken some time to look into the event. It is not for this House to retry the case. With that in mind, I will try to address some of the facts of the case, then the way that the case should have been treated, and finally the four points that my hon. Friend raised. Even though, as he rightly said, the family have since found a lot of evidence, there is none to suggest that the accident would not have happened anyway. I think everybody accepts that. I am not responsible for the letter. That is a matter for Sussex police.

Sussex police have acknowledged that their procedures could have been improved. That is right and proper. Interestingly, the Independent Police Complaints Commission carried out an investigation into the complaints made by the family about the conduct of the investigation by Sussex police, and I know that there was some concern about whether Sussex police or another force should have carried out that investigation. I shall come back to that in a moment. The IPCC found that although some of the complaints were well founded, there was no misconduct on the part of the officer. The IPCC is, of course, a completely independent body.

The other fact that I should raise at this point is that the gentleman concerned was an off-duty police officer. Had he been on duty, what happened afterwards would have been completely different. I was not at the scene and I do not have some of the facts that my hon. Friend referred to in his comments, so I will stick to what I know and the information that has been passed to me. The IPCC said that the Sussex police investigation of the incident was conducted thoroughly and effectively, so that part of the complaint referred to by my hon. Friend was not upheld. It is important to note that.

The operational independence of the IPCC from the Home Office and from Ministers is an integral part of our system and we should make sure that no Minister intervenes in its working. Nor should we as Ministers intervene in police investigations. At the heart of my hon. Friend’s concerns was the investigation of PC Chalmers by his own force. I reiterate that if he had been on duty, the matter may well have been dealt with by another force. In this case, as he was treated as an individual off duty, it was investigated in the same way as a case involving any other member of the public. The fact that he was an off-duty policeman should not, I agree, have precluded Sussex police from investigating the death of Luke Bland and the rest of the incident. The really serious injuries that occurred, in particular to Ben, were taken into consideration when the prosecution decisions were made.

Sussex police’s criminal investigation led to the prosecution of PC Chalmers. The IPCC found that the case was investigated thoroughly and effectively by Sussex police. Therefore it would appear that the case was treated with at least as much integrity as an investigation of any other member of the public who had been at the wheel. It would also appear that even though prosecution was withdrawn, it was not because Sussex police’s investigation was at fault.

My hon. Friend makes four suggestions. I think I understand all the points that he is trying to make, even if I cannot agree with them at the Dispatch Box today. The first point— that Sussex police review again the case—is clearly a matter for the police force. It is not a matter for a Minister or the Home Secretary. I may not be dealing with these points in the same order as my hon. Friend.

The second point is that the insurers should instigate their own action and review PC Chalmers’ claim. That is clearly also a matter for the insurance company. I was at the Department for Transport for many years. Insurance companies tend not to pay out unless they have to. They will hate me for saying that, but they do not. They like taking our premiums, but rarely pay out. It is clearly a matter for the insurance company whether to pay for the damage to the car and compensation to the families. It might also be a matter for civil litigation should the families wish to purse that course.

The third point concerns whether the Home Secretary should ensure that the police are investigated in the same way as the public. They are, should they be on duty. If they are off duty, they are civilians: they are not doing their job of work, so they are not investigated by the IPCC in the same way. It is right and proper that those who are off duty are off duty, and when they are on duty they are on duty.

Lastly, should PC Chalmers make a public—

[Charles Hendry]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way, and I am particularly grateful to him for the sensitive and thoughtful way in which he is responding to the debate. Will he, however, look at the role of the Police Federation in this? When an instruction was left that Stewart Chalmers should be arrested, the Police Federation got involved in a way that was described as “ferociously” by the police themselves. They then suggested that if they went ahead and arrested Stewart Chalmers, the police officer doing that would himself be sued personally. That cannot be a level playing field, because that would not happen if it was not somebody who had been a police officer who had done it.

[Mike Penning]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. He must have read my thoughts on the point I was going to come to in my conclusion to this short debate.

The fourth point—made, I am sure, on behalf of the family but through my hon. Friend—is that PC Chalmers should make a public apology. That is a matter for the gentleman concerned and for his own personal thoughts and conscience. I personally cannot in any way instruct the gentleman to do so.

However, because of the comments that have been made in this evening’s debate, I intend to go away and ask my officials to look into the conduct of individuals from the federation. I do not think we should smear the federation. It is going through a transitional period at the moment. I met the senior management of the federation earlier this afternoon; it was actually a very convivial meeting. They were very much standing up for their members, and in many ways I sympathise with some of the comments that they made, but they are really moving on, and I think in the right direction. However, I will ask my officials to look into the matter regarding the comments that my hon. Friend has made about what the Police Federation representative may or may not have said. I will ask my officials to look into that immediately. If I do not have the powers to do that, I will find someone who does.

With that in mind, I am conscious that this has been a very difficult matter for my hon. Friend to bring before the House. If I was a Back Bencher, I would really have to rack my brains about whether to do so, not because I would have to decide whether standing up for someone was right or wrong, but because the courts have made a decision, based on the evidence placed before them. That is the justice system we have in this country and that is the democracy we live in.

With hindsight, and especially given the tone with which my hon. Friend has brought the matter before the House, I think it was right and proper that there was a Minister here to respond, even if on most of the points I do not have the powers to intervene, and nor would I wish to have them. With that in mind, I will take away the comments about looking into the Police Federation, and I truly hope that the family can have some peace after the loss of their loved one and that Ben gets better soon.

Question put and agreed to.