Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fourth sitting)

Mary Glindon Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 1st May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

If anyone else wants to declare an interest, please do so now.

[Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

I declare an interest as a member of the responsible vaping all-party parliamentary group.

[The Chair]

Thank you.

Examination of Witnesses

Professor Sanjay Agrawal and Tim Mitchell gave evidence.

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[Nickie Aiken]

Excellent.

[Mary Glindon]

Q There are still 6.4 million people who smoke. With this Bill, how do we prevent future generations from smoking and become a smoke-free country? What incentive is there in this Bill for persistent smokers to stop smoking now? Are there physical health benefits for long-term smokers to quit that could be an incentive if they have not tipped over the edge and have an incurable disease?

Professor Agrawal: It is never too late—that is what I say to patients who are currently smoking. I see people in their 60s, 70s and 80s, so it is never too late to quit. There are always benefits. Even when people have been diagnosed with lung cancer, we can provide treatment in the form of surgery, radiotherapy and so on, and quitting smoking still helps. I think the Bill sends a clear message that we recognise that there are 6.4 million smokers and we need to support them to quit. Vaping is one means of doing that, and we are not trying to take it away from them if that is the only way they have been able to quit smoking. The Bill contain provisions to help all groups. It is not just about stopping young people taking up smoking; it recognises the need to do something for the people who are still currently smoking.

Tim Mitchell: I would say that there is still an imperative to encourage people who smoke to stop smoking, and vaping can be a mechanism for helping with that. Certainly, as surgeons, when we see people who smoke who require surgery, we encourage them to stop smoking. We know that their risk profile through surgery is improved if they can stop smoking, even just a few weeks before they have surgery. Even if they do not smoke on the day they have their operation, that has some benefits. Encouraging people who smoke to stop smoking remains a very good thing to do, in addition to the provisions in the Bill.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Professor, you talked about choice, and about business and the need to maintain profits by addicting a new generation of people to a nicotine-based product that will be hard for them to quit. That applies to vaping as much as it does to smoking, although one may be more harmful than the other. Could you talk about the effects of vaping on those who have never smoked—particularly things such as e-cigarette or vaping use-associated lung injury, and the effects of nicotine on their lungs?

Professor Agrawal: In the report we have just published, we looked at a range of studies related to safety. Ann McNeill, who will be talking this afternoon, is in a much better position to talk about that work. We measured the range of toxins and the degree of exposure. E-cigarettes expose people who use them for a short time to quit smoking—which is the only thing we advocate them for—to a much narrower band of toxin, and the degree of exposure is lower. In comparison with tobacco, it is much lower, but in comparison with not using either, unsurprisingly the levels of toxins are higher. The RCP is very clear about that: if you do not smoke, do not vape.

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[Dr Johnson]

Q Do you think the penalties should fall on the person who sold the good, rather than the person who produced and made the illegal product and released it for sale?

Mr Lawson: You would find it very difficult to enforce it if you were trying to take action against a manufacturer in China, where you do not have jurisdiction. I think the only way of addressing this is in the UK, where the stores are purchasing products and then selling them on illegally.

[Mary Glindon]

Q The UK Vaping Industry Association, which represents the vaping sector but not any of the tobacco companies that produce vapes—I note that John Dunne, the CEO, is in the Gallery today —has suggested that the Government should include a vape retailer and distributor licensing scheme in the Bill. The industry has itself developed a comprehensive framework for such a scheme, which it claims is designed to, once and for all, deal effectively with the issue of underage and illicit vaping sales. Would that be a big step forward to cut out illicit vape sales?

Mr Lawson: The evidence I have seen is mainly from Spain, where tobacconists must be registered and licensed before they can sell products. In Spain traditionally, vape products have been sold only through licensed tobacconists. More recently, you can see them in convenience stores. I think we are seeing issues in Europe beyond the UK where products are now being sold illegally. Where they are sold in licensed outlets, you generally see much better compliance with the regulations. Obviously the licence can be removed, so it is a deterrent to the retailer to selling any of the products. That would be a good step in the right direction.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q You mentioned that your company is doing testing of products. One of the things that we heard just before your evidence was that what comes into the UK market obviously is not tested before it comes out, and we know that the illicit and non-compliant market is growing hugely. Can you talk us through what you do when you test your product? Where does it go?

Mr Lawson: The main driver behind testing has been to support trading standards in taking enforcement action against illegal products in the market. The testing has therefore focused on two main areas. One is the tank volume, the 2 ml, and the other is the nicotine strength, the 20 mg/ml, so the testing looks entirely at whether products are simply complying with the regulations. I did hear some of the last answers, but there is a very simple step: when it is applied, the MHRA notification scheme works fairly well. Most of the products that we test are not on the notification system—they are not on the MHRA’s portal. There is no check from a retailer or an importer that the products must be on that portal, so there is a bit of an issue there; you can effectively bypass the entire notification process by importing products and selling. Additionally, if the products do not contain nicotine, they are not subject to MHRA regulations.

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[Trudy Harrison]

Q Professor West, I found your introduction on addiction absolutely fascinating. One of the things that people have said to me—I am sure it has been said to all of us here—is that could be a slippery slope, the thin end of the wedge, because there are other addictive things in society, such as alcohol, ultra-processed foods or gambling. Where do we start? What is it about tobacco products, uniquely, that gives such a compelling reason for the Bill being so necessary?

Professor West: That is a really good question. The wedge issue comes up a lot. Essentially, what is unique about tobacco is the significant degree of harm at low levels of use. With alcohol, it has been and could be argued, there is at least some degree of harm from so-called moderate use, the level of harm is of an order such that, I think, most people in society would say, “Well, you know, this is okay.” Even non-daily smoking, however—even smoking one, two or three cigarettes a week—can present significant harm, particularly of cardiovascular disease, for example, which has a very nonlinear function relating the exposure to the risk. So there is that, the unique harm.

The other unique thing about tobacco is the proportion of users who become addicted. With alcohol, alcohol dependence as it would normally be measured is present —depending on your definition—in between 5% and 10% of users. With tobacco and cigarettes in particular—not all tobacco or nicotine products are identical, but with cigarettes in particular—it is much higher than that. A majority of people who use any amount, and any form, of smoked tobacco probably have a significant level of addiction. That would be my response.

[Mary Glindon]

Q We know that in deprived areas there is high incidence of smoking. Professor West, you have been talking about the fact that disposable vapes becoming more readily available has perhaps made more people vape. Is that in any way linked to people in deprived areas being able to afford vaping more than they could if they have to buy a unit, vials, batteries and everything else? Although the Bill does not ban disposable vapes, how valuable and important is the economic value to people in deprived areas of being able to vape cheaply as opposed to smoking?

Professor McNeill: Very. Keeping vapes accessible, both in terms of price and where they can be purchased, is really important for smokers to stop.

Professor West: I was going to reinforce the point about young people, smoking and disposables. It is about the unit cost, or having a low start-up cost. With disposables, if you look at it over the long run they are more expensive than having a tank device and refilling it with the liquid, but the upfront cost is greater. We do not know for sure, but certain bits of evidence point in particular directions. If you put the unit cost, or the start-up cost, together with the potential ease of use, the appeal and all the rest of the things in the package, you reach a point at which arguably you cross a threshold and then it begins to take off. Then it becomes a self-fulfilling thing, because it becomes fashionable and faddy. It is possible, if the plateau we are seeing now carries on or if it starts to go down in the absence of what we might do, that will also be testament to the social norm side of it. Running against that is the fact that nicotine is addictive, so that will drive it up. However, I think you make a good point.

[Dr Cameron]

Q I am interested in the psychology of vaping. Do you see that as being somewhat different, particularly for younger people, from smoking? Is it seen as more fashionable because of the packaging and the social media around it, perhaps because of the flavours and so on, or is the psychology for both much the same?

Professor McNeill: I certainly think the cartoon packaging and names are inappropriate and clearly targeted, at young people, as I think the previous speaker said, and they are unnecessary. As she said, they are probably not having the effect we want with adult smokers in making them feel that these products are for them, so I do think about reducing that branding. The promotions on social media seem to be important and influential, so if something can be done about that, that would be good. I also think the easy accessibility in shops is a factor.