Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fourth sitting)

Lisa Cameron Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 1st May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Kirsten Oswald]

Q I am interested in the exchange that has just taken place. You have said that all addiction is bad for us, which makes sense to me. We heard evidence yesterday about the impact of young people vaping in schools. Some of that impact is the disruption to education and the challenge for young people if they a need to go out of the classroom to vape because the pull of the addiction is so strong. I wonder what your thoughts are on the mental health impact of the addiction in the education setting. I would also welcome your thoughts on the connections with sports; I am particularly interested in sports organisations advertising vapes, which I think is a poor choice. I think sport should have a positive impact on the mental health of young people, but I am not sure that connects properly when these vapes are being advertised.

Mark Rowland: I really support the Bill’s efforts to regulate and protect young people from ever engaging in vaping. As you say, it is about the unintended consequences. We are not quite clear on the mental health consequences of vaping for young people. We know that young people who have lower levels of mental wellbeing are more likely to vape. We know that the targeting of young people drives them into addictive behaviour, so we need to protect young people from that. We need a regulatory environment that does not allow young people to be exposed to advertising that is particularly targeted at them. I would support such a measure.

I think the unintended consequence of children missing out on education due to vaping cannot be underestimated. We also have an issue around the mental health of young people who are not attending school—the school rejectors. We need to bring them into an education environment in which we can see what that young person needs and what the consequences for their mental health have been from not being in school. I would rather kids were in school and that that educational setting was protected for them.

[Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Con)]

Q When I worked in mental health services, we often found that there was an association between people who were smoking cigarettes and also cannabis and having aggravated psychotic symptoms. Do you think that the measures in the Bill will help people to avoid smoking in general and therefore be less likely to move on to smoking cannabis as well and aggravating those psychotic episodes?

Mark Rowland: The evidence around cannabis use and the increased risk around psychosis is really clear and strong. I have personal experience of the absolutely devastating experience of friends who have experimented casually with cannabis and the consequences for their mental health.

It is a fair supposition to make for you as legislators that a Bill that makes such a symbolic and strong stand against young people getting addicted to smoking, reducing the rates and preventing young people from getting addicted to vaping will set a fantastic context for preventing addiction to other substances. Would it not be great if we also saw some delay in the first experience of young people drinking? We could be on the cusp of doing something really fantastic for young people if we look at the range of addictive or self-soothing products, and cannabis would be one of them. If you break the chain and teach people how to manage their mental health and distress in a positive way, you will reduce the risk of people choosing addictive and damaging products to do that for them.

[The Chair]

If there are no further questions, can I thank the witness? We will move on to the next panel.

Examination of Witness

Dr Laura Squire gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mary Glindon]

Q We know that in deprived areas there is high incidence of smoking. Professor West, you have been talking about the fact that disposable vapes becoming more readily available has perhaps made more people vape. Is that in any way linked to people in deprived areas being able to afford vaping more than they could if they have to buy a unit, vials, batteries and everything else? Although the Bill does not ban disposable vapes, how valuable and important is the economic value to people in deprived areas of being able to vape cheaply as opposed to smoking?

Professor McNeill: Very. Keeping vapes accessible, both in terms of price and where they can be purchased, is really important for smokers to stop.

Professor West: I was going to reinforce the point about young people, smoking and disposables. It is about the unit cost, or having a low start-up cost. With disposables, if you look at it over the long run they are more expensive than having a tank device and refilling it with the liquid, but the upfront cost is greater. We do not know for sure, but certain bits of evidence point in particular directions. If you put the unit cost, or the start-up cost, together with the potential ease of use, the appeal and all the rest of the things in the package, you reach a point at which arguably you cross a threshold and then it begins to take off. Then it becomes a self-fulfilling thing, because it becomes fashionable and faddy. It is possible, if the plateau we are seeing now carries on or if it starts to go down in the absence of what we might do, that will also be testament to the social norm side of it. Running against that is the fact that nicotine is addictive, so that will drive it up. However, I think you make a good point.

[Dr Cameron]

Q I am interested in the psychology of vaping. Do you see that as being somewhat different, particularly for younger people, from smoking? Is it seen as more fashionable because of the packaging and the social media around it, perhaps because of the flavours and so on, or is the psychology for both much the same?

Professor McNeill: I certainly think the cartoon packaging and names are inappropriate and clearly targeted, at young people, as I think the previous speaker said, and they are unnecessary. As she said, they are probably not having the effect we want with adult smokers in making them feel that these products are for them, so I do think about reducing that branding. The promotions on social media seem to be important and influential, so if something can be done about that, that would be good. I also think the easy accessibility in shops is a factor.

[Dr Cameron]

Q But is it more fashionable to use vapes for young people than to smoke?

Professor West: I think that is right. What was interesting is that I talked about having your cake and eating it, and we were doing pretty well until recently. A key factor there, if you look at the sentiment among young people and what they thought of vaping, was that it was an old person’s thing to do to help them stop smoking. That is what we want; we want people to think of vapes as a thing you use to help you stop smoking. Unfashionable, but useful.

[The Chair]

Rachel Maskell. Yours will probably be the last question.