Oral Answers to Questions

Marsha De Cordova Excerpts

Monday 21st May 2018 Commons Chamber

[Sarah Newton]

The very fact that the hon. Lady says the case has been resolved shows that the system is working. It is very important that we make the right decision first time. I have set in place a whole series of improvements to PIP. We have followed the advice given to us by the independent review of PIP and are working at pace to make the necessary changes.

[Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)]

As a result of the incorrect guidance produced by Independent Assessment Services, formerly Atos, in relation to daily living activity 6—help with dressing—will the Minister tell the House how she proposes to estimate the number of claimants who have been incorrectly assessed for PIP, and to identify the claimants affected, provide a correct assessment and pay all the arrears due?

[Sarah Newton]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question—we had a meeting last week where we discussed this case. The matter was brought to the Department’s attention by the Royal National Institute of Blind People in March. We have looked into the case and are absolutely assured that this is a one-off situation, but it is very important to me that we learn the lessons of how this happened. We are meeting the RNIB on Wednesday to see what further action we can take.

[Marsha De Cordova]

But does the Minister not accept that the wording of the correspondence that was produced by Independent Assessment Services—sent to her by a number of voluntary organisations, including the RNIB—suggests that the guidance has potentially been widely circulated among assessors, and that for contracted assessors to produce independent guidance on social security law without the Department’s knowledge suggests a serious problem with contract management?

[Sarah Newton]

I do not accept the premise of the hon. Lady’s questions. We are very clear that the personal independence payment assessment guide, which is published by the DWP and is on gov.uk, is the guidance that must be used by health professionals. The particular case was investigated and we have made sure that the procedures are in place to ensure that this does not happen again.

Oral Answers to Questions

Marsha De Cordova Excerpts

Monday 26th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Sarah Newton]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question and for taking the time and trouble actually to visit the centre where the assessments are taking place. If more Members in this House were to do that, they would be better informed about the reality of the process. It is absolutely right that the assessments are undertaken by properly qualified medical professionals.

[Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)]

As well as the gross failings of the personal independence payment, we see another Government failure with the employment and support allowance underpayments where an estimated 70,000 sick and disabled people were incorrectly assessed and denied vital social security support. Will the Minister update the House on the progress that she is making in arranging to identify and to backdate awards to those former incapacity benefit and severe disablement allowance claimants?

[Sarah Newton]

I am delighted to be able to update the House on this important exercise. Back in August last year, the first payments went out to people who had been identified as underpaid. We are making really good progress with identifying other claimants who will benefit from the additional payments, and we have recruited up to 400 new members of staff, so that we can carry on our work delivering these payments.

[Marsha De Cordova]

How is the Department prioritising ESA claimants underpaid as a result of incorrect assessments, aside from those with terminal illnesses and conditions? Will the Minister confirm that claimants who were victims of underpayment will not be subject to reduced ESA eligibility due to lump sum payments being classed as savings?

[Sarah Newton]

On the first point, I assure the hon. Lady that we are working closely with our stakeholders. I am grateful to the disabled people and the organisations who are working with me and my colleagues in the Department to ensure that we are contacting the underpaid people who will most benefit from receiving these payments. On the second point, there are proper practices and procedures within the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure that lump-sum payments are not taken into consideration as people’s capital allowances. I have made a detailed statement to the House but if the hon. Lady would like to raise specific questions with me, I suggest that she bring them along to our meeting on 19 April.

Disabled People and Economic Growth

Marsha De Cordova Excerpts

Thursday 22nd February 2018 Commons Chamber

[Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)]

Let me begin by congratulating the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Dr Cameron) on securing this important and timely debate. I commend her for the work she has led on the all-party parliamentary group for disability.

I would like to extend my thanks to a number of disability organisations, including Disability Rights UK, the Royal National Institute of Blind People, Scope, Leonard Cheshire Disability and Action on Hearing Loss, for all the work they have done on improving employment opportunities for disabled people and for the important briefings they have provided for today’s very important debate.

There are currently around 11.6 million disabled people in this country—people like me, who have factors that could act as a barrier to engaging in a wide range of valued activities, and not just economic activity, which is the focus of our debate. Disabled people make up around 16% of the working-age population, yet we face barriers in all aspects of life, including in education, transport, access to justice, access to voting, housing, health and, most importantly, employment.

Almost eight years of Tory austerity have had a disproportionate impact on disabled people. We know that half of those who live in poverty are disabled or live with someone who is disabled, in part because of the additional cost of their disability, but also because the labour market does not work well for disabled people who are able to work.

The duty to make reasonable adjustments to support disabled people in accessing education, employment, housing, and goods and services is a key feature of the Equality Act 2010. However, we know from the 2015-16 House of Lords report on the Equality Act and disabled people that the legislation needs firm Government action to ensure that it is strongly upheld and to remove the barriers in society faced by disabled people who have a condition and/or an impairment.

It is a matter of serious concern that we have a Government who barely speak about removing barriers, while actually creating new ones through their austerity cuts and their punitive social security system. In their 2015 manifesto, the Tories pledged to halve the disability employment gap by 2020, but the TUC has found the Government to be years behind on that commitment. They have since dropped the pledge, and replaced it with a reduced commitment to getting 1 million more disabled people into work.

As we have heard, the rate of employment for disabled people stands at 49.2%, compared with 80.6% for the rest of the population in the most recent period for which figures are available, meaning that the disability employment gap lies at 31.3%. We know that the gap is even wider for specific disability groups. For registered blind and partially sighted individuals, only one in four people of working age is in work, and my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Bambos Charalambous) mentioned the employment gap for those living with autism.

The Office for National Statistics recently announced that it was suspending publication of the disability employment rate indefinitely. The motion notes the fact that there will be a disability employment gap after Brexit, and the current gap in the UK is considerably above the European Union average of 21%. That illustrates the extent of the Government’s failure to take meaningful and serious action. In the light of this, why have the Government weakened their commitment to reducing the disability employment gap? It would be helpful if the Minister set out the measures she is taking to improve the ability of disabled people to enter work and—on retention—their ability to stay in work?

Many barriers faced by disabled people are shaped by false perceptions about the role they play in the workplace. Research by the Scope charity found that almost half of disabled people have worried about making employers aware of their impairment or their condition. We know that one of the key barriers that has been highlighted is how we shape employer attitudes to employing people with a disability. What are the Government going to do to support employers—especially small businesses, given that they make up nearly half the workforce—to employ disabled people? How can small businesses access affordable and timely occupational health support, and how can best practice be shared?

I must say I was surprised that disability and disabled people were not mentioned in the Budget, giving a very negative message to the population about the role of disabled people in the economy and giving the regrettable impression that their contribution to the economy is not being championed or prioritised by this Government. Will the Minister offer an explanation for this omission? Opposition Members will build an economy that includes everybody, because that is how we can develop an economy that truly works for everybody, not just for a few.

I cannot stand at the Dispatch Box speaking on this subject without mentioning the comments made last December by the Chancellor of the Exchequer during Treasury Committee questioning, when he linked low productivity growth with the employment of disabled people. Unfortunately, there has been no apology for those comments, and his lack of remorse following the scapegoating of disabled people for a productivity crisis created by this Government’s failed economic policy speaks volumes. Does the Minister agree that there is a need for a clear and coherent message from the Government that employing disabled people can enhance productivity and make a real contribution to organisations and businesses across the UK?

Despite that, the Government finally managed to publish their long-awaited “Improving Lives” paper late last year. Some 90% of disability and long-term health conditions are acquired, so it is absolutely right to examine how employers can make reasonable adjustments to support an employee to stay in work if they become disabled. However, the paper did not set out how the Government intend to achieve or fund this aim.

To date, the Disability Confident campaign, launched in 2014, has been a dismal failure. It has made a negligible impact on the disability employment gap and has yet to produce any concrete evidence of results. Will the Minister confirm how many additional disabled people have found work as a direct result of the Disability Confident campaign?

The Access to Work programme, when it works well, provides invaluable support, but too often I hear about problems in relation to the administration and timeliness of payments, the cap on individual awards and the assessments. Ms French is a visually impaired person. Her experience of seeking employment is that when the subject of Access to Work came up, recruiters said that the employer was in too much of a hurry and would not be able to wait for an Access to Work assessment to be completed. As we all know, Access to Work is probably the best kept secret—it helps far too few people—and it will need significantly more resources if the Government are to get anywhere near the aim of getting 1 million more disabled people into work by 2027.

In the case of a deaf person, Mr Will, he was offered a job by a Disability Confident employer. However, once the employer realised that the Access to Work support would be capped and that they would have to meet the rest of the costs, the job offer was withdrawn. Will the Minister set out what substantive action the Government are taking to support people in work? What work have they done with disabled people to ensure that this support is flexible and responsive to need? More importantly, what additional funding will the Government make available, especially for Access to Work?

We have concerns about the language used in the Government’s “Improving Lives” paper, which centres on the idea that employment can “promote recovery”—the familiar sounding phrase, which says that disabled people and people with chronic conditions would recover if only they tried a bit harder, or were subject to an even tougher system. Will the Minister reassure people with disabilities limiting their ability to work and those actually unable to work that this is not the intended message her Government are trying to convey or that they believe in?

For nearly eight years, disabled people have borne the brunt of the cuts inflicted on them by this Government and the previous coalition Government. The cuts have had a detrimental impact on the lives of disabled people, cutting living standards and undermining their access to education, social care and justice. In 2016, the United Nations convened a committee to investigate state violations of the UN convention of the rights of persons with disabilities. Its report concluded that the Government had committed

“grave, systematic violations of the rights of persons with disabilities.”

That is a damning indictment of the treatment of disabled people by this Government—it shames us as a country—yet the Government have failed to act. We believe in a social model of disability and a society that removes the barriers restricting opportunities and choices for disabled people. We will incorporate the UN convention of the rights of persons with disabilities into law. I ask the Minister: why do the Government refuse to do the same?

Currently, 4.2 million disabled people live in poverty, and new evidence indicates that this number is increasing as a result of cuts in support. According to Scope, the Welfare Reform Act 2012 has cut nearly £28 billion in social security support from 3.7 million disabled people. Cuts contained in the Welfare Reform Act 2016 are adding to the suffering experienced by many disabled people, and that does not include cuts to social care, the NHS, education or transport—all of which have had a direct effect on disabled people.

Research by Scope that was published this week revealed that on average, disabled people face extra costs of £570 a month due to their impairment or condition, and that is on top of social security payments that are designed to help meet these costs. Extra costs mean that disabled people’s money simply does not go as far—£100 for a non-disabled person is equivalent to just £67 for a disabled person.

In addition to the four-year freeze in social security support, the 2016 Act cut financial support by £1,500 a year to half a million disabled people who had been found not fit for work, but who may in the future be in the ESA work-related activity group. Will the Minister provide the House with an assessment of the impact of social security cuts on disabled people and their ability to stay in work? The current social security system is not working for disabled people. Analysis this week by Demos into the treatment of unemployed disabled claimants revealed that they are up to 53% more likely to be docked money than claimants who are not disabled, and disabled people have been hit by 1 million sanctions since 2010.

Under this Government, the social security system has penalised people with disabilities by cutting much needed support and making it harder for them to access what support is available. The assessment processes for ESA and PIP are not fit for purpose, and trust in the system has been completely undermined. The widespread distrust of the assessment process by sick and disabled people is no surprise, with a record 68% of PIP decisions that are taken to tribunal being overturned by judges. Under private contractors, the assessment process is getting worse, not better. Why will the Government not act to end privatisation and replace the current system with a more holistic process?

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this important debate, and I congratulate all Members on their contributions. However, the Government must understand that for too many disabled people, the reality is a social security system that punishes rather than supports them and a labour market that shuts them out rather than being open to their potential and skills. It is incumbent on the Government to harness the potential of everyone and to create a truly inclusive society that works for the many, not just the few.

Draft Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations 2018 draft Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) (Payment of Claims) (Amendment) Regulations 2018

Marsha De Cordova Excerpts

Tuesday 20th February 2018 General Committees

[Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Ryan.

The draft regulations cover compensation payments for sufferers of listed dust-related diseases, or for sufferers’ dependants. As we have heard, the Child Maintenance and Other Payments Act 2008 made provision for lump sum compensation payments to people suffering from diffuse mesothelioma or their dependants. The draft legislation provides for a 3% uprating of the lump sum payments made to sufferers or their dependants. We recognise that under the 2008 Act the Government have no obligation to increase payment rates to keep up with inflation, so we welcome the move.

Mesothelioma is a cancer of the lining of the lungs or abdomen and is predominantly associated with asbestos. The greater exposure, the greater the risk, and those who work directly with asbestos are at the highest risk. However, those with limited exposure—a significant number of people, such as those who wash the clothes of someone who works with asbestos—are also at considerable risk. There is usually a delay between exposure and the onset of the disease of about 40 years on average.

Mesothelioma is a very serious disease. Only 55% of those with the disease live longer than six months following diagnosis, while just over a third live longer than one year. According to Cancer Research UK, incidence rates in the UK have increased by 71% since the early 1990s. In the past 10 years, the number of deaths has risen by nearly a third. More than 2,500 people in the UK die of the disease every year.

As we have heard, the 2008 scheme provides a one-off lump sum payment to sufferers where there is no occupational link to the disease. That includes cases in which a person affected was exposed to asbestos while self-employed, or in which a person lived near a workplace where asbestos was used regularly. People suffering from diseases as a result of exposure to asbestos, or one of a number of other similar agents, may be unable to bring a successful claim for civil damages in relation to their disease, mainly because of the long delay between exposure and the onset of the disease. We recognise that providing lump sum compensation payments through the two schemes covered by the two sets of draft regulations is important for sufferers of those diseases.

Improved health and safety procedures have restricted the use of asbestos and provided a safer environment for its handling, but the legacy of the common use of asbestos is still with us, and it is still a very current issue. Predictions of a peak in cases have proved wrong time and again, and they have been revised time and again in debates in the other place. The Government suggested that they expected mesothelioma claims to peak in 2018—this year—but their previous estimates have proved inaccurate. Will they confirm whether they still expect a peak this year? If not, what is their revised date?

Regardless of whether there is a peak in the number of people affected, it is vital that we continue to raise awareness of the risk of working with asbestos. What measures are the Government taking to ensure that awareness is widespread? Responsibility for asbestos lies primarily with the Health and Safety Executive. Will the Minister provide details about the activities and campaigns that the HSE is undertaking to raise awareness and encourage prevention?

The HSE’s funding is being slashed by almost half as a result of Government cuts. It will receive over £100 million less from central Government in 2019-20 than it did in 2009-10—a reduction of 46%. Between 2010 and 2016, the number of its inspectors was reduced by 25%. Such huge cuts will inevitably have an impact on all its areas of responsibility. Will the Minister secure appropriate public protection by ending the proposed future cuts to HSE funding? Will she confirm whether additional funding has been made available to the HSE in the last year to prevent harm from asbestos? Will she set out the funding plans for the next financial year for the same purpose?

I also ask the Minister about the considerable disparity between payments to sufferers and payments to their dependants. In 2010, a commitment was made by the then Minister Bill McKenzie—now Lord McKenzie—to close that gap. The issue was raised again last year, but the Government failed to provide any commitment and we have seen no further action since then. In every debate on the issue since 2010, Members of both Houses have called on the Government to honour that commitment. Why have the Government not done so? Do they still intend to reduce the differential between lump sum payments for dependants and sufferers? What would be the additional cost of achieving parity between the two?

We welcome the increase, in line with inflation, in payments to those who suffer from pneumoconiosis. Again, we recognise that the Government have no statutory obligation to increase those payments, but I am pleased that the Minister has done so. The draft regulations relate to the Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) Act 1979, which provides lump sum compensation payments to sufferers of certain dust-related diseases, including those caused by coal dust and asbestos. As with mesothelioma, provision is made for payments to dependants, as defined by the 1979 Act, where the sufferer did not receive payments under that Act before their death.

The annual death rate from pneumoconiosis in the UK has remained relatively constant over the past 10 years, with an average of approximately 140 deaths per year. According to charities that support sufferers, the number of cases and the number of deaths attributed to the disease are both likely to be underestimates. Identification of the disease is difficult: it does not always present as acute, and its symptoms can be overlooked or misattributed because they are similar to those of several other diseases. Diagnosis could be improved with greater awareness. Will the Minister set out what action the Government are taking to raise awareness of the disease, its range of causes, the circumstances in which it is likely to occur and the support available? We support increasing payment levels to sufferers of the illness and their dependants. As with previous regulations, I want to ask again: are the Government still committed to ensuring that sufferers of pneumoconiosis and their dependants achieve parity of award?

We have no impact assessment for either of the statutory instruments. The Government assert that it was not necessary to produce those, but I am concerned about the reason for that. Why does the Minister believe that was not necessary? Will she tell us how many claims there were in relation to both sets of regulations last year, and how many of those claims were successful?

I look forward to the Minister’s response to the points that have been raised today. If she cannot answer all the questions now, I would be grateful if she put her answers in writing. Despite the points raised, we welcome both the regulations and the uprating of payment levels in line with inflation for those affected by these devastating illnesses.

Oral Answers to Questions

Marsha De Cordova Excerpts

Monday 5th February 2018 Commons Chamber

[Sarah Newton]

The hon. Gentleman raises the important issue of specialist providers of employment. This is a very important sector, which the Government have a proud tradition of supporting. I meet stakeholders regularly, and we are always looking to see what more we can do to help them sustainably provide the invaluable employment opportunities that they do.

[Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)]

Despite the Government’s claim that no severely disabled person moved on to universal credit would be worse off, we now know that that is not the case: scrapping the disability premiums will have just that effect. Transitional protection for existing claimants can easily be lost where there is a change in circumstance, such as if someone moves into work and if that job does not last. What assessment has the Minister carried out of the impact of abolishing these disability premiums on disabled people, and does she agree that transitional protection should be retained, so that it is not lost where there is a change in circumstance?

[Sarah Newton]

Unlike the previous system, universal credit is more targeted, and support is focused on those who need it most. Transitional protection is available for people who move into universal credit from other benefits, provided their circumstances stay the same. When giving evidence to the Select Committee last week, my hon. Friend the Minister for Employment said that he was aware of the situation, and he is thinking carefully about this issue.

Personal Independence Payments

Marsha De Cordova Excerpts

Wednesday 31st January 2018 Westminster Hall

[Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Laura Pidcock) on securing this important and timely debate. She made some valid points and highlighted the sheer volume of responses that she received when she put out a call on social media. That demonstrates the clear problems with the PIP system and with the benefit.

My hon. Friend talked powerfully about the outsourcing of the assessment process, which we all know is simply not working from our experience with the work capability assessment. It is about time that those assessments were brought back in-house because there is poor-quality decision making and no scrutiny. Frankly, it is unacceptable that taxpayers’ money is going out to those providers.

[Ruth George]

Does my hon. Friend agree that outsourcing decisions waste money and are against the interest of claimants? Discrepancies between Capita, which sees 59% of claimants at home for a home assessment, and Atos, which does the vast majority of PIP assessments but sees only 16% of claimants at home, expose the divisions in the private sector and show why the assessments should be brought back in-house and monitored properly.

[Marsha De Cordova]

It is important that the Government listen to the valid point made by my hon. Friend, and I hope the Minister will address it. We have heard testimony about the Department’s approach to disabled people. People said that it felt cold and that they were not treated as human beings, but they have to engage with it.

I pay tribute to my many hon. Friends who have spoken—it is important that so many of them are here—including my hon. Friends the Members for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson), for North Durham (Mr Jones), for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy), for Great Grimsby (Melanie Onn), for Crewe and Nantwich (Laura Smith), for Reading East (Matt Rodda), and for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Gerald Jones), and the good interventions from my hon. Friends the Members for High Peak (Ruth George) and for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green).

My hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby highlighted the points about face-to-face assessments well. The assessment process, the centres and the information provided have to be accessible, but that is not happening on all occasions. That needs to change. This debate has been called because of the crisis in the claimant experience of personal independence payments.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

Having witnessed the way in which the Tory party did politics in the run-up to the 2010 election and having sat opposite them between 2010 and 2015, this is not an accident. It is a deliberate part of the party’s electoral strategy: to demonise the poor and to say that this country’s problems are caused by the most vulnerable people in our society. The experience that claimants receive is a deliberate part of the Conservatives’ political strategy.

[Marsha De Cordova]

My hon. Friend is spot on. Let us be clear: from the outset in 2010, the Government’s fundamental aim for the new benefit was to make savings and to reduce the case load of disability benefit claimants. That is a fact. The expectation was to make a saving of 20%, which equated to around £1.5 billion. It is untrue to say that that was not the case. PIP was supposed to cover the additional costs of living with a disability, but that has not been the case in practice. The assessment framework is flawed and it causes delays.

[Kate Hollern (Blackburn) (Lab)]

Having heard the cases that have been discussed, does my hon. Friend agree that the process is dehumanising? It degrades individuals who are at their most vulnerable. Does she also agree that we need to take a two-pronged approach? The private sector makes millions of pounds and causes misery for others, but we must also bear in mind the fact that the policy itself is seriously flawed.

[Marsha De Cordova]

My hon. Friend, too, makes a valid point. We have to look at the policy intention behind PIP’s introduction—to make savings and to reduce the number of disabled people who were entitled to the benefit.

The assessment framework creates a series of financial problems. Poor-quality decision making has led to disabled people losing vital financial support. The evidence is damning—it is there for all to see. When decisions are challenged, in 68% of cases taken to tribunal the finding is in favour of the claimant. That indicates that there is a problem. The process is lengthy and stressful, and many people do not know how to challenge a decision or what they need to do, so many will go without and lose that financial support.

If a claimant wants to challenge a PIP decision, they must first ask for a mandatory reconsideration, as my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham discussed in detail. That was supposed to improve the claims process, but in reality, it has had the opposite effect. Many disability organisations have noted the number of decisions on claims that have passed through the supposedly rigorous mandatory reconsideration stage, but have gone on to be overturned at tribunal.

According to the Department’s own figures, about 20% of PIP MR cases lead to the decision being revised. It seems that the appeal tribunal process is being used as a backstop for poor decisions that should have been resolved at the initial stage or at the mandatory reconsideration.

[Dan Carden (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

My constituent, Anthony, who visited my surgery on Friday, has a chronic illness. He has been through the process up to the point that my hon. Friend describes and he is awaiting a date for the appeal court. He will lose his car in April. He has been to advice centres to seek advice, but they are full with a backlog, so he has now come to me. Without a date for the appeal process, what can be done and what should the Government do? He faces months and months of distress.

[Marsha De Cordova]

Perhaps the Minister can clarify what my hon. Friend’s constituent should do. We cannot have individuals losing their vehicles unnecessarily.

Poor decision making is taking place. It has become so bad that the most senior tribunal judge said that the evidence provided by the Department was so poor that it would be “wholly inadmissible” in any other court. There has been a 900% increase in complaints about PIP.

I will talk briefly about the High Court decision. There was an urgent question yesterday, but I am not sure that the Minister answered all the points that were made. The regulations were introduced to reduce the number of claimants who qualify for PIP. The High Court said that they were “blatantly discriminatory” against people with mental health conditions. What is most scary is that but for the High Court decision, the Government could have just carried on as usual.

[Mike Hill (Hartlepool) (Lab)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Marsha De Cordova]

I cannot take any more interventions—I apologise.

Where do we go from here? Clearly, the Government have no idea when the examination of those 1.6 million claimants will take place. Will it be weeks, months or years? The Minister has not provided a good timeframe and I ask again if she can give us a timeframe as to when the PIP assessment guide will be updated. When will the backdated payments begin to be paid? Will there be compensation for PIP recipients who have incurred debt as a result of those regulations? Will the Department update its administration and staffing costs, which are also expected to be published? Will the Minister guarantee that no claimant will lose out as a result of their case being reconsidered? Given the damage that has already been caused, it is simply not good enough that Parliament and PIP claimants are being left in limbo while Ministers are trying to get their house in order. There have already been two independent reviews by Paul Gray, but the recommendations of the most recent one were accepted only in part by the Government.

The Minister has accused the Labour party of scaremongering. That is wholly untrue. The wealth of evidence presented today has highlighted the human impact of these benefits policies. The UN Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities has found the Government in breach and is still waiting for them to respond. The Equality and Human Rights Commission has called on the Government to carry out a full cumulative impact assessment of their welfare reforms, but they still have not done so. Only last week, the European Committee of Social Rights found the Government to be in violation of the European social charter. Something is clearly wrong. Labour has made it clear that we would scrap the assessment regime and replace it with a good, open and holistic assessment framework.

PIP Back Payments

Marsha De Cordova Excerpts

Tuesday 30th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to make a statement on the process and timetable for the personal independence payment back payments.

[The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work (Sarah Newton)]

As a result of our decision not to appeal the recent PIP judicial review judgment, we informed the House via a written statement and in a response to a parliamentary question that we will be carrying out an administrative exercise to identify claimants who may now be eligible for more support from PIP. The Secretary of State took the decision less than three weeks ago. As previously said, we will be working with Mind—experts in the field—and doing things as sympathetically and effectively as possible. While efficiency is important, I cannot stress enough that I want the appropriate scrutiny and complete accuracy to be applied to this exercise, so it will not be rushed.

This exercise will include screening the existing PIP caseload of some 1.6 million people to identify the group who may benefit, but the vast majority of claimants will not be affected. As the Secretary of State said last week, we currently estimate that up to 220,000 people will be affected by the judgment. For the group of people who may be affected, we will undertake a detailed review of their applications and awards. We will write to the individuals affected, and all payments will be back-dated to the effective date in each individual claim. There will be no—I repeat, no—face-to-face reassessments of awards. DWP case managers will be conducting a review of the existing information we hold, with a view to establishing whether claimants are entitled to more. If case managers need more information to make a decision, they will contact the claimant and/or their doctor.

I am sure you will understand, Madam Deputy Speaker, that this is a complex exercise, and we need to undertake testing to ensure that we implement it safely. We therefore do not yet have an estimate of how long it will take. Obviously, we will keep the House updated on our progress in this exercise. Based on preliminary calculations, we estimate that the overall costs of implementing the judgment could be up to £3.7 billion by 2022-23. However, this number is highly likely to change as we work through all the impacted cases.

[Marsha De Cordova]

I thank Mr Speaker for granting this urgent question.

Following the written statement of 19 January and last week’s urgent question, yesterday we discovered in an answer to a written question that the Government will be reconsidering approximately 1.6 million PIP claims—effectively, everyone currently in receipt of PIP. However, no timetable was issued or detail provided for this process. We know that 55% of people with mental health conditions transferring from disability living allowance to PIP receive a lower award or no award at all. As the High Court found, the Government’s regulations are highly discriminatory.

I am pleased that the Secretary of State and the Minister’s Department have finally seen sense. However, there are a number of questions that the Minister must answer. By what date will the Department have changed the PIP assessment guide, so that she can implement the judgment? How quickly thereafter will the Department be able to identify affected claimants? Is her Department prioritising the PIP claims it is re-examining? If so, will she publish the prioritisation criteria? By what date will all 1.6 million PIP claims have been reviewed? Will it be weeks; will it be months; or will it be years? Do the 1.6 million claims to be reviewed include those that scored zero points and were not awarded PIP? Will there be an appeals process for the PIP claimants not contacted by the Department who believe that they should receive back payments? Will the Department compensate claimants who have fallen into debt and accrued interest charges? After the equality assessment was published in February 2017, the estimated number to receive the higher rate of PIP went up to 164,000, and it is now 220,000. Will the Minister publish an updated assessment? What assessment has she made of the administrative costs to her Department of undertaking this complex exercise of a considerable scale?

This mess is one of the Government’s own making. It is a clear example to this Government of the dangers of seeking to undermine both the independent judiciary and the House of Commons.

[Sarah Newton]

It is absolutely not true to say that we are trying to undermine the independent judiciary, because we have accepted the findings of the appeal and are now going to painstakingly, carefully and safely implement the findings. It is incredibly important for our democracy that we have an independent judiciary, and we stand by that.

The hon. Lady asked a number of questions. First, for clarification, the information that was provided in response to the written parliamentary question was absolutely the same as that given at this Dispatch Box by the Secretary of State last week and that contained in the written statement.

Moving on to some of the hon. Lady’s more detailed questions, she mentioned the updating of the PIP assessment guide. She is absolutely right: that is the starting point to making sure that we properly and thoroughly implement the recommendations of the appeal. I am delighted to say that Paul Farmer of Mind has agreed to work very closely with us to get that right. I have spoken to Paul Gray, who has undertaken the independent reviews of PIP, and he has also offered his help. I recently met a broad range of our PIP stakeholders and invited them to share their expertise.

As I said in my previous response, it is incredibly important to me that we get this right. The exercise will be complex and, to carry it out accurately and safely, we want to ensure that stakeholders and experts are involved. As a result, I cannot set out a timetable at this stage, but I can reassure all hon. Members that we are approaching this with a great deal of vigour and will ensure we do it as soon as possible. We have already started to recruit more people at DWP to help with the PIP review.

We want to discuss the prioritisation of the review of PIP claimants very carefully with our stakeholders to ensure that the process is fair, transparent and open. We will be reviewing people who had zero points in their original claim. We are currently considering the best way to handle an appeals process.

Of course, I will update the House regularly. The Secretary of State said that she would do that from this very Dispatch Box last week. We have oral questions every six weeks, so there are plenty of opportunities for Members to ask us about the progress we are making in this very important work.

Points of Order

Marsha De Cordova Excerpts

Monday 22nd January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his characteristic courtesy in giving me advance notice of his intention to raise that point of order. Moreover, the House has just learned from his detailed description of the prodigious efforts he made to contact the Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor, even if ultimately they were to no avail. I thank him, as I say, for giving me notice of the point of order.

As I have said on many occasions, colleagues, it is a strong convention, albeit not a rule, that a Member should give reasonable notice to a Member whose constituency he or she is intending to visit in a public capacity of the fact of that prospective visit. Apart from anything else, I regard this as a matter of courtesy.

I would say on this occasion that I am surprised to learn of this development, because I know the Secretary of State. Ordinarily, he would be regarded, I think, as one of the most courteous Members of the House. I do regard this as a lapse. It is regrettable and I hope that it will not happen again. We ought to treat each other with courtesy, which means giving some advance notice, as I have said.

[Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance as to whether you have received notification from the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions that she will make an oral statement on personal independence payment. As you may be aware, late on Friday afternoon, the Government put out a written statement announcing that they would not appeal the High Court judgment of 23 December 2017 that in effect reversed the emergency PIP regulations that they introduced early last year.

As I am sure you recall, Mr Speaker, those regulations were brought in without a vote of the House as a negative statutory instrument despite two urgent questions, an emergency debate and widespread concern about their impact. I would be grateful for your guidance on how Members might have the opportunity to question Ministers in detail on this vital policy change, which will affect more than 150,000 people—primarily those with mental health conditions.

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her point of order. In short, I have received no notification from the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions of an intention to make a statement on that matter. As the hon. Lady will know, the Secretary of State is in her place; she is welcome to come to the Dispatch Box and respond if she wishes, but she is under no obligation to do so.

Disability Confident Scheme

Marsha De Cordova Excerpts

Wednesday 10th January 2018 Westminster Hall

[Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Luke Graham) on securing this important debate. He made some valuable points, particularly about engaging and encouraging employers to recruit more disabled people, and about the importance of reducing the disability employment gap. I share his pleasure in the fact that so many Departments are signed up at business leader level for the Disability Confident scheme, and I hope the Minister will ensure that all Departments do that. I am currently completing an application for my office to become a Disability Confident employer. The hon. Gentleman also recognised the importance of work and the positive impact that that can have on one’s health and wellbeing.

Good contributions were made by several hon. Members, and we all recognise the importance of the scheme. The hon. Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) spoke passionately about the scheme that ran in his constituency. He was once Minister for Disabled People, so he is very knowledgeable about the scheme, including some of its shortcomings.

All hon. Members will be in favour of improving employment opportunities for those with disabilities and long-term conditions, but figures for the disability employment gap show that there remains a clear and continuing problem regarding access to sustainable and supportive employment. For far too long, many disabled people have not been in work. That is unacceptable, especially when we compare the numbers of those in work who are not disabled with those who are. Currently, 49.2% of disabled people are in work.

The Disability Confident scheme was designed to address the clear failures of our employment support system. However, we have so far seen very little evidence of its success at tackling the problem. That is demonstrated by the employment gap. In fact, what we have seen from the Government is a shift in direction. At the 2015 general election, the Conservatives promised to halve the disability employment gap by 2020. They have since dropped that commitment and are now looking at a slightly lesser target. It is slightly less ambitious—they now seem to say that they will not halve the disability employment gap by 2027.

That is also true of the Disability Confident scheme. The Government were supposed to

“assess specific, measurable, action taken by employers”

as a result of the scheme. That has shifted. The Government now claim that they are

“not able to measure the number of disabled people moving into employment as a direct result of it”.

How are we supposed to assess whether the Disability Confident scheme is actually improving people’s access to employment? There is a clear need for a meaningful method of evaluating the scheme and its effects in terms of getting disabled people into work.

Many disability organisations have sent us briefings, and Disability Rights UK has highlighted the concerns. When the Department for Work and Pensions launched the scheme, it did not refer to how it would look at job outcomes. What is more important is evidence—we do not see the attitudes of employers and their understanding of disability employment. For one thing, many of the employers that have signed up to the scheme are large employers that transferred from the old legacy scheme—the two ticks system. Obviously, what we need to do, looking at the numbers going forward, is see how we can continue to encourage other employers. As has been made clear, the scheme has about 5,000 members, which is great, but we have to consider that in context: there are more than 4 million small and medium-sized enterprises in this country. I would be keen to hear the Minister say a bit more today about what we are doing to encourage more businesses to become part of the scheme.

This matters because the attitudes of many employers remain the central barrier to recruiting disabled people. The charity Leonard Cheshire Disability found that 60% of line managers surveyed stated that concerns about the costs of workplace adjustments prevented them from employing a disabled person, so it is clear that employer attitudes are not shifting. Work needs to be done on improving the attitudes of employers. If we look at the details, we see that often there is a lack of knowledge about reasonable adjustments, which is obviously another barrier.

Not many employers are familiar with the Access to Work scheme. We all know that that is probably one of the most popular schemes. It is effective in its results in supporting people in work, and it supports people to stay in work. However, I always say, as I heard another hon. Member say, that it is one of the best kept secrets, because so many people are not aware of it and what it can do. How can the Disability Confident scheme grow and expand if employers are not aware of the Access to Work scheme and the important role that it plays in supporting disabled people into work? I have been a beneficiary of the scheme throughout my career.

I am conscious of the time, but will say a bit about awareness raising. Between 2014-15 and 2016-17, the Government spent about £13,500 on promoting the Access to Work scheme. I think we would all agree that a little more needs to be done on improving and raising awareness of the scheme. It would be very welcome if the Minister outlined what plans we have to raise awareness and for ensuring that Access to Work will be adequately funded. Obviously, we all want demand for the scheme to increase, because we all want more disabled people to get into work. I therefore want to hear more about ensuring that the scheme is adequately funded.

Disability Confident is a voluntary scheme. There is a question about how we can further encourage and incentivise employers to become part of it. The scheme is good in part and well intentioned. As I have said, it is sometimes difficult to measure the good impact. Not evaluating the impact is how we end up with a scheme under which, as has been pointed out, it is possible to achieve level 3 accreditation without actually employing a single disabled person. More needs to be done to ensure evaluation. I therefore ask the Minister again whether she agrees that the Disability Confident scheme should measure the number of disabled people moving into work. To build on the current scheme, there should be some sort of independent evaluator to monitor and evaluate progress under the scheme and how well employers are doing in recruiting disabled people and retaining them in work.

Independent Living Fund

Marsha De Cordova Excerpts

Tuesday 9th January 2018 Westminster Hall

[Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas) on securing this important debate and I thank everybody for their valid contributions and interventions this afternoon. My hon. Friend makes a really good point in that this issue has probably not been discussed. Given it has been nearly two and a half years since the fund was closed, it is worth our revisiting it today. He points out that this is a technical issue. Also, he made the really important point that we need to know the quantitative impact of the devolving of funds on existing claimants. He rightly set out the importance of the fund and the part it has played in many disabled people’s lives to enable them to live an independent life and able to fully participate in society.

My hon. Friend set out how the fund made a contribution and how it was devolved to local authorities, particularly in England. That is a good example of the impact it could have when the scheme is changed in Wales. As it stands, it will potentially be devolved to local Welsh authorities, as has happened here in England. He made the point that local authorities’ budgets have been put under great strain, given the funding cuts they have had to endure over the past seven years. We need to take a fresh look at the way funding is given to support disabled people.

I pay tribute to Nathan Davies, a constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham and a recipient of the fund. He is a disability rights campaigner and I thank him for all that he does. We need to hear the voices of disabled people so that we fully understand the impact that decisions made here have on disabled people outside.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the fears that my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham, I and others have is that, because there are such pressures on council budgets, there will be great campaigns on locally based issues—the closure of a library or the like—but individuals with disabilities will not have that same sort of voice and could therefore be left unheard and with financial problems as a result of the changes?

[Marsha De Cordova]

My hon. Friend makes a really valid point. She is right. We need to ensure that the voices of disabled people are heard. I can refer back to my own experience here in London in a particular local authority when the campaign on the closure of the independent living fund began. A lot of campaigning took place. It is important that we encourage and empower disabled people to ensure their voices are heard. I totally take her point that we need to ensure disabled people’s voices are not lost in any of the debates. As a disabled woman myself, my role is to ensure disabled people are empowered and their voices always heard.

From the outset it is fundamental that any support for severely disabled people is adequately funded so that we can ensure people with disabilities can live independently. We know that disabled people are twice as likely to live in poverty compared with non-disabled people, in part due to the extra costs associated with living with a disability. I cannot carry on further without talking about the Government’s past record in terms of the disproportionate impact that their cuts have had on disabled people. There are 4.2 million disabled people living in poverty and over the past seven years many disabled people feel they have been scapegoated by the Government. A 2016 inquiry by the UN’s Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities found that since 2010 the UK Government have been responsible for “grave or systematic violations”.

The independent living fund—I will refer to it as the ILF—closed in June 2015. The funding was devolved to English local authorities and the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish Governments. Devolved Governments adopted their own different policies. We have already heard about the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish policies. The ILF was originally set up in 1988 to help cover the extra costs of being severely disabled. It was also to ensure that disabled people could lead a full and active independent life in their community, rather than living in institutions or in residential care. At the time of the fund’s closure, more than 16,000 disabled people in Britain were receiving an average of around £350 a week towards the costs of living independently.

The ILF was a vital financial resource for many severely disabled people that enabled them to live independently. It helped to cover the everyday tasks that many of us take for granted such as cleaning, washing, cooking, going out and being able to participate fully. At the time of the closure the coalition Government stated that all existing recipients would continue to be funded by their local authorities. In reality, that has not always been the case. It was suggested that many local authorities would not ring-fence funding and the grant would simply be absorbed into a general pot.

For example, Disability Rights UK research suggested that only 29 councils in England would ensure non-ring-fenced funding would be allocated. Indeed, the UN Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities,

“observed that social care packages have been reduced in the context of...budgetary constraints at the local level.”

As I have alluded to, we know that since 2010 local authorities have come under extreme pressures and have seen their budgets cut. They will continue to have to make cuts and it is unsure how much support disabled people will receive. For example, when an individual who received 27 hours of support a week through the ILF was reassessed under the local authority arrangement, he was to be given just nine hours’ support. Potentially he would have to make contributions as well, and naturally that would have been unaffordable.

The extensive cuts to local government funding have ensured that in many cases some disabled people have been restricted or limited in the lives they could lead. As has been pointed out, there were local campaigns; I was not in this place at the time but I am led to believe that there was a protest here, by disabled people who wanted to change Government’s decision to end the independent living fund in its current form without devolving it to a local level. Despite assurances from the Government of the day, support has been removed from some disabled people, and reduced for those with the highest support needs. In England in particular, there is pretty much a postcode lottery; the level of support that people get is almost dependent on the local authority area they live in. We would all agree that it is fundamental that disabled people’s independence should not be dependent on the level of funding or eligibility criteria set by an individual local authority. Distribution of funding should also be based on need; therefore there should be some sort of universal policy for how that is done.

I want to speak briefly about eligibility. That is determined by the local authority, and we do not see, in many cases, whether recipients’ support has decreased or increased. A decrease would undoubtedly have an impact on someone’s ability to live independently. I share the concern of my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham and hope that the Minister can respond on the important issue of what the impact of the changes to the independent living fund has been. How many recipients’ support packages have been reduced, and how many have remained the same? Are there any instances, among so many disabled people, of the support being enhanced? It is also important that we should know that disabled people’s voices will be included in the future when decisions are made about them. That is something that I believe and take a stand on, as does the Labour party. Since 2013 disabled people have experienced £27 billion in welfare cuts, affecting social security and social care support.

As I said at the start of my speech, we believe that it is fundamental that adequate funding is provided to enable severely disabled people to live independently. The Government must ensure that local authorities and devolved Governments are adequately funded. I urge the Minister to touch in her response on how we will deal with working-age disabled people.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sarah Newton]

The hon. Gentleman raises a good point. We transferred the money for that purpose—I was going to come to this point later in my speech, but I will say it now. The hon. Gentleman gave various numbers for losses, cuts, and people not receiving money that came from the research that he has done, including work with third-party organisations. Before this debate I asked him to come and see me so that we could talk the issue through, because the fund was certainly transferred in the full expectation that its recipients would have their funding maintained. If there is evidence to the contrary I would like to sit down with him and go through that.

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s welcome for the independent review of the impact of the fund. That was carried out by leading social scientists and showed that the majority of people interviewed during the research were seeing the same level of expenditure, or more, and that the level and quality of support were going up. However, there was variability in that research, and I would be delighted to sit down with the hon. Gentleman and make sure that the money is being spent in the way that was intended.

Through the devolution of the fund, the vast majority of recipients of ILF—94%—were also recipients of care and financial support from local authorities. There was a lot of duplication, and that has enabled local authorities to have the person-centred approach that the Care Act 2014 was always about. We need to join up services around the individual because no two people are the same. No two families have the same circumstances, so we must ensure that support meets the needs of the individual and enables them to live as independently as possible. As the hon. Gentleman recognised, these are devolved matters, and it is for the Welsh Assembly to make these decisions. The Welsh Minister for Social Services and Public Health said that funding of the ILF will continue in Wales, as that will equalise support and “make it more sustainable”. That is certainly a point that the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues in Wales recognise.

We have a clear commitment to ensure that disabled people have the support to lead independent lives, and that is demonstrated in the fact that the Department spends well over £50 billion a year. This year, £52 billion will be spent on benefits to support disabled people and those with health conditions. That is around 2.5% of our GDP, and more than 6% of Government spending, and it is up by £7 billion in real terms since 2010. It is simply wrong when colleagues stand up in the House and say that the Government are cutting benefits for people with disabilities. These are indisputable facts, and when hon. Members stand up in the Chamber, and elsewhere, and wonder why there is a perception that the Government are being cruel and heartless to disabled people, I think they should look at themselves in the mirror. When Members constantly misrepresent the facts, of course people will be worried and scared. Like any other constituency MP I hold weekly surgeries, and I am frankly dismayed when people come along holding their Labour leaflets and showing me what they are being told. They are scared about cuts that are not happening.

[Marsha De Cordova]

It is not right to say that we are not being truthful because there have been severe cuts to support for disabled people. The introduction of the personal independence payment and the abolition of disability living allowance means that fewer people will receive additional support to help meet the extra costs of living with a disability. The time limiting of contributory employment and support allowance has also led to a reduction in the number of recipients who are eligible for support—

[Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair)]

Order. This is an intervention, not a speech. The Minister is replying to the debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sarah Newton]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for pointing that out. The numbers clearly show a significant contribution to helping people live independently, but these things are not the only things we are doing. He is completely right to talk about enabling people to play their full part in society, including in work, and I am delighted that so many more disabled people are in work. The vast majority of disabled people want to play their full part in society and to be able to work, and we have set up very ambitious plans to ensure that more people have more support.

Let us look at some of that support. Not only do we have ESA and the personal independence payment, but enhanced and tailor-made support is available through the work coaches in Jobcentre Plus—that is more than £330 million. The marvellous Access to Work programme enables people to receive support of up to and over £40,000 a year so that they can go to work and stay in work. The subject of the newly launched Work and Health programme brings me on to the point raised by the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran about working collaboratively with Scotland. I am delighted that in Scotland people are working so constructively on some of that innovation, and testing new ways that we can support people to get into and stay in work. We have a constructive working relationship with Scotland, and Scotland is benefiting from some of the considerable investment we are putting into that programme. Just this year we have two funds, one of nearly £80 million and another of about £35 million. I will, of course, always look to work with colleagues in any part of the country where we can work collaboratively and constructively to learn from each other, so that we can enable more people to play as full a part in society as they possibly can.

We have also talked about other parts of the funding. Adult social care is incredibly important for disabled people, and we have committed to publishing a Green Paper by the summer, setting out how we will reform the system and have a longer-term settlement on social care. An inter-ministerial group has been set up to do that, because it is an essential reform that we need to achieve. It is also important to have a cross-party, whole nation approach to doing that, because various Governments have tried to get it right, but we have yet to come up with a settled view we can all support. I think that is long overdue, and I will work hard to support that inter-ministerial group in coming up with a set of proposals that will aim to command the support of the whole House. Any hon. Members here who would like to join would be welcome.

[Marsha De Cordova]

I am really pleased that there will be a cross-ministerial group. Can the Minister confirm that working-age disabled people will also be considered in the Green Paper and in the reform of adult social care?

[Sarah Newton]

We definitely have two pieces of work under way. One is part of adult social care and is about the care of elderly people, and one is for working-age disabled people. That is incredibly important. We are always looking to see what more we can do to support disabled people to live as independent a life as possible, and I also want to ensure that, as we look ahead, we draw on the lessons we will learn through the considerable investment in innovation that we are putting in through the Work and Health programme. I want to ensure that we have an evidence base for the reforms we want to put in place.

In the meantime, we know we need to put more money into the system. We have put in an additional £2 billion over the next three years. That money was committed in March last year, and will mean that local authorities have the funds they need to support disabled people in living as independent a life as they can and to meet their social care needs. Councils have access to £9.25 billion more in dedicated funding for social care over the next three years. I think that, with this additional funding, local authorities have the ability to meet the needs that have been clearly set out there and to meet the responsibilities set out in the Care Act. It is important to analyse the impact of the closure of the independent living fund and I am happy to meet the hon. Member for Wrexham, because what I really want to do is focus on what more we can do in the future.

I hope that hon. Members who have been present for today’s debate will see that we have a big ambition, through a whole range of programmes, to enable disabled people to live independently and play their full part in society, helping them into work. I believe that the challenge we face as a nation is above party politics; it should be above party politics. Those colleagues who want to work with me to improve, learn and move forward to realise that bold ambition are very welcome to join me in a meeting and in that great challenge.