Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Tami Excerpts

Wednesday 13th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

My father was a welder at the Port Talbot plant for more than 30 years before he was made redundant several years ago. I am from that community and understand how important the steelworks is to the income of the area. My family has been through the good times when records have been broken and the difficult times when my father, like many others, was made redundant. The Government regularly engage with many of the companies, both suppliers and customers, that work with Tata. We are determined to do everything to support them.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

Yesterday, the Business Secretary said we need to work together, cross-party, on this, and the Secretary of State for Wales has just said the same. I understand that he is to visit Shotton on Monday—when was he intending to tell me?

[Alun Cairns]

I would have hoped that the hon. Gentleman would be grateful for, or approving of, a visit from a UK Minister to Shotton. I have been responding to the calls from the local workers, but I was in Wrexham on the day that the news broke about Shotton, and I spoke to community leaders and business leaders about the impact. I said to the community, “As soon as more information becomes available, I will return.” That is why I am returning to Shotton next Monday, and I am pleased about it.

Macur Review of Historical Child Abuse

Mark Tami Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd March 2016 Westminster Hall

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the Macur Review into historic child abuse.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Sir Edward. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship today. I am sure we are all saddened by the news we are hearing from Brussels.

I will start by putting on record my thanks to the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) for his statement last week. I also congratulate him on his new role in government. I also congratulate the Secretary of State for Wales and the Minister on their promotions. I look forward to working constructively with both of them in what I am sure will be an eventful year. I also pay tribute to many colleagues across the House for their work, especially the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), who I am delighted to see with us this afternoon. She has campaigned tirelessly for the victims and survivors of child abuse in Wales and beyond.

The publication of the Macur review’s report was long overdue. For the survivors of these abhorrent events, it represented hope: that they would see justice; that their accounts of events would be vindicated; that the nagging doubts and conspiracy theories would be either verified or dispelled; and that the whole would be conducted disinterestedly without fear or favour. Unfortunately, the report, which includes more than 600 redactions, adds virtually nothing to our understanding of how the state failed so many children over so many years in north Wales.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

I am sure that, like me, the hon. Lady has already had survivors contact her to say how disappointed they were. The report was their hope that there would be recognition, but all it does is leave unanswered questions still unanswered.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I agree. It seems to have been very much a matter of process and documentation, with survivors and victims as a second consideration. I will return to that.

The report culminates in a bland list of eight conclusions, which mainly state that Waterhouse was necessary, agree with the instigation of this inquiry, say that neither is a substitute for criminal proceedings and that the experience of giving evidence is difficult for survivors. The six recommendations include the platitudes that inquiries should be “above reproach”; that evidence should not be lost; that there is no purpose in further inquiries; and about the hazards of hindsight. I will return to recommendation 5 later.

Macur was the third review of its kind after the Jillings panel and the Waterhouse tribunal. We will have to wait a further two and a half years before we learn of the findings of Goddard’s independent inquiry into child sexual abuse. The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children in particular criticised the timescale, saying that despite the “drawn out process”, the report reveals “barely anything”. It expressed concern that that might deter victims from coming forward during the ongoing Operation Pallial.

I turn to redactions: the removal of names and details by which people might be identified. On my count—I may be wrong, although I counted twice—there are 633 redactions in the report. Although many will be duplications, the Secretary of State and the Minister must appreciate that that number is extremely high. The previous Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon. Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire, said in his statement last week that redactions had been “kept to a minimum”. While I, and I am sure many people here, accept that some redactions must be made, particularly given the ongoing court proceedings and the potential for further actions, I put it to the House that to claim that redactions in the report have been kept to a minimum is frankly disingenuous.

I am particularly concerned about the extremely high number of redactions in chapters 7 and 8 on freemasonry and establishment figures respectively. Lady Justice Macur made recommendations in her report to the Secretaries of State on what should be redacted in the published report. She said:

“It is for the Secretaries of State to determine any further redaction of my Report weighing public interest with the caution”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I agree. There is a history, as the right hon. Lady mentioned, of a loss of evidence associated with child abuse. I refer also to the Geoffrey Dickens dossier. I ask the Minister to consider whether victims and survivors of abuse in Wales—not only north Wales, of course—can, in all honesty, be satisfied with the findings of this report.

Now that the Macur review has been published, we are left with the overall lasting impression that documentation and process have been more important than securing justice for the victims and survivors of the abuse that was perpetrated, which should have been the overarching responsibility and purpose of the review. Symptomatic of that concern for documentation and process rather than for the victims and survivors of abuse was the failure to speak to them individually. The review held a public session in Wrexham in June 2013. The review’s website states that, on that day, Lady Justice Macur

“met privately with anyone who asked to do so”

and that the review

“met with numerous individuals with relevant information.”

However, I have spoken with one of the survivors, Keith Gregory, who is a point of contact for other victims and survivors of abuse, and he has informed me that arrangements for interviews were forgotten by the review.

Adding to the undermining of the victims and survivors of abuse are the definitions of “unreliable witnesses” and “multiple hearsay”. Those unfortunate terms were used at the time by people working within the Wales Office to dismiss those who had approached them to demand that attention be focused on investigating abuse that later turned out to be true and to be widespread. The terms are still in use today and are very potent.

It is unfortunate that, due to misguided and wild accusations that emanated from multiple investigations into prominent public figures, sympathy for the survivors and victims of historical child abuse has swung away from them to incorrectly accused individuals. Obviously, the cases of figures such as Lord Edwin Bramall and Harvey Proctor—this, of course, is relevant to news we have heard in recent days—have demonstrated the need to proceed with care and caution when investigations are carried out. However, the danger is that the popular and media perception focuses on sympathy for wronged figures at the expense of genuine victims and survivors. The sensationalist and prurient nature of the subject matter makes a good tabloid story, but surely society should make every effort to respect the suffering of all innocents caught up in both perpetration and accusation.

Ultimately, after reading the Macur review, I am left with the impression that many points still need to be explained and explored under the public gaze. I am particularly concerned about recommendation 5, which I do not interpret in the same way as the Secretary of State for Wales did in his statement last week. He referred to one alleged incident of criminal charges, but Lady Justice Macur’s recommendation seems far more wide-reaching. It concerns me that the Secretary of State appears to have been at pains to restrict the scope of recommendation 5, and I seek a further explanation of what steps will be taken.

The role of the Children’s Commissioner for Wales should be strengthened, which she mentioned in an interview on “Sunday Politics Wales” at the weekend. The commissioner, Sally Holland, called for greater powers, noting that the commissioner’s powers in relation to complaints, advocacy and whistleblowing should be extended to include any area that involves the abuse of children. Might I suggest the Government examine that point and perhaps, if appropriate, include it when they inevitably strengthen and revise the initial draft of the Wales Bill? Will the UK Government work with the Welsh Government to ensure that the Children’s Commissioner has the full range of powers she believes she needs to ensure the full and adequate protection of children?

The Children’s Commissioner also called for the Government to publish or explain information regarding who identified what number of redactions and in which chapter; that is an important point. We are aware that an unredacted copy of the review has been forwarded to the Goddard inquiry, but that will not report until the end of 2018 and will therefore be another long process for the survivors, who have waited for many years already. Victims and survivors need to know what the methodology and process for deciding upon redactions were; the Government owe them that. I note that the only politicians to have had sight of the unredacted version so far all belong to the Government. That does not seem right. It is also clear that there needs to be a strengthened status for evidence from child abuse inquiries, including its preservation, which is a wider point for any Government inquiry.

There undoubtedly needs to be a commitment to ensure that children’s voices are heard in the criminal justice system, in health and social care and in any other sector that involves the care of children and contains the potential for abuse. Rather than simply a platitude that seeks to soothe and reassure in the face of public anger and is then forgotten as time rolls on, we need to change the way in which children’s voices are heard during such processes, in concrete and administrative terms.

[Mark Tami]

The hon. Lady makes an important point about children’s voices being heard. In many of these cases, because the children were in a home, they were not considered to have any value, and that is why they were treated in the way they were. That, in some ways, is the worst aspect of this whole miserable, dreadful business.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

One thing that has saddened me is perceiving how vulnerable these children were, which made them vulnerable to abuse in the first place, and how that abuse in turn has affected them for the rest of their lives and in part condemns them to being unreliable witnesses. We have not served them well; there is no denying that.

Macur Review

Mark Tami Excerpts

Thursday 17th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. He expresses astonishment. What I say in response to that is that if he has specific information about specific individuals, he knows where to go with it—to the police. His question as to why the arrests are being made now and were not being made 30 years ago is a specific question that I have put to the NCA. Its response was that, first, this is because of the publicity of recent years and, secondly, it is because of the culture change, with a lot more witnesses feeling empowered to come forward. That is part of the reason why much greater convictions are being secured; the police are receiving greater, specific evidence from survivors and victims who feel willing to come forward.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

Has the Macur review had unfettered access to those who can explain why the original Waterhouse inquiry did not name the persons of public prominence in its report?

[Stephen Crabb]

Some of the individuals who worked on the Waterhouse tribunal are no longer living, but Lady Justice Macur has pursued, to the very best of her ability, direct conversations with people who worked on the tribunal at the time. As I explained earlier, she has also reached out to survivors. She held that public event in Wrexham to explore this as fully as she possibly could. This was not just her trawling through boxes of documents to explore all these questions. She explains why names should not just be bandied about and she explains clearly why a redaction process is necessary, and I encourage the hon. Gentleman to look through that, along with the letters I am publishing alongside it today, in order to understand this.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Tami Excerpts

Wednesday 18th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question, as it gives me the opportunity to talk about one practical measure that we have taken in recent weeks: we have changed the guidelines for Departments on procuring steel for major projects, allowing for Government contracts to take into consideration wider economic and social impacts, which we hope will create more opportunities for UK steel manufacturers to win those bigger contracts. With this Government making a record investment in infrastructure, that creates future growth opportunities for the British steel industry.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

Although we clearly need measures such as help with business rates and energy costs, does the Secretary of State agree that if we do not tackle Chinese dumping, all those other measures will count for nothing and that the future of the industry in this country is bleak?

[Stephen Crabb]

I agree with the sentiment and the direction of the question. That is the backdrop to the global challenge, not just for the British steel industry, but for the steel industry in north America and all across Europe. With a glut of cheap Chinese steel coming on to the market, we are leading efforts at a European level to tackle dumping. We voted for the anti-dumping measures in one specific section of the steel industry and we are continuing with those discussions.

Steel Industry

Mark Tami Excerpts

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Ms Eagle]

I was fairly astonished to read the comments from the Minister for what the Government call the “northern powerhouse”. He said that what has happened to Redcar was a “tragic distraction” from his work on the northern powerhouse—I had hoped that he would have seen it as part of his job to try to get the Government to take much earlier action to head off an entirely foreseeable occurrence.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the Chinese have not just started dumping steel but have been doing so for a long time?

[Ms Eagle]

They have, and I will come on to the Chinese later in my remarks.

North Wales Economic Infrastructure

Mark Tami Excerpts

Wednesday 25th March 2015 Westminster Hall

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—(Mel Stride.)

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. I begin by expressing my sympathy to the family and friends of those who lost their lives in the dreadful air crash yesterday. Airbus wings are made in Broughton, and the thoughts of those at the factory will be with everyone who has been affected by the tragedy.

It is about a year and a half since we had a debate on a similar subject. In some areas, we have seen some big improvements, but in other areas, particularly rail, progress has been limited, to say the least. Despite the title of the debate, our economic region extends beyond north Wales and includes a big proportion of the north-west of England. I want to put on record my thanks to the Mersey Dee Alliance for all its work to campaign for and promote investment in our area.

Manufacturing is key to the region. North Wales and the north-west of England have a population of some 8 million and economic output of some £140 billion. It is the largest manufacturing area in the UK, with more than £25 billion of output. The area boasts some of the top manufacturers not only in the UK but in the world. In my area, for example, we have Airbus, Toyota, Tata, Raytheon, Convatec and many others. I could stand here for a long time naming all the companies that are so important to creating jobs and growth in our area. There are many more on the other side of the border, such as Vauxhall at Ellesmere Port. The patterns of travel show that workers criss-cross the border. Some Vauxhall employees live on the Welsh side of the border, and about 40% of the Airbus work force live in England but work in Wales. The border, to all intents and purposes, does not exist from an economic regional point of view.

The success of our region cannot be taken for granted. Experience has shown us that once-great industries can and do fail. Many companies are truly global, and they have a choice over where to site their operations. If circumstances dictate, as we have seen in many cases, they can up sticks and move elsewhere. We cannot ignore that reality, and it is a danger. Many years ago, Deeside was dominated by Shotton Steelworks, a maker of colour products, which remains an important employer. It is taking on apprentices, and when I visited recently I was pleased to hear about some of the investments and progress that are being made.

The steelworks holds the record for the largest number of job losses at a plant on a single day, when more than 8,000 people lost their jobs under the Thatcher Government. That devastated the whole area. I say that not to make a point about Tories destroying jobs—

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

Why not?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Tami]

All right, then; I will make that point. That example illustrates the fact that no matter how big a company is or how long it has been there, if events turn against it, the impact can be devastating. More recently, UPM paper mill, which I consider to be a benchmark employer—I certainly would not have put it on a list of companies in difficulty—announced that it would be cutting 120 jobs from its 370-strong work force. Why? Because the demand for newsprint worldwide has declined. When the recession hit, people stopped buying newspapers and magazines. Even as we slowly come out of recession, people’s habits have changed and they use the internet more, so demand has not picked up again.

In 2001, Corning Optical Fibre, a high-tech firm on Deeside industrial park with more than 400 employees, closed virtually overnight when world demand for optical fibre suddenly collapsed. So sudden was the collapse that I remember seeing at the factory millions of pounds-worth of equipment that was still in its wrapping and was never fitted. The lesson is that we cannot rest on our laurels.

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend speaks of the collapse of investment at Corning. What assessment has he made of the changes that the Conservatives made to the feed-in tariff when they came back into power in 2010? What impact did that have on Europe’s biggest solar panel factory in Wrexham?

[Mark Tami]

Wrexham is not in my constituency, but people who lived in my area worked at that plant, and I saw that it had a devastating impact. One of the worst aspects of the situation was that the company was, I believe, encouraged to take on a lot of employees because it saw growth, but that was cut from under it by the changes that the Government introduced. We cannot simply assume that everything will be good, and we must make sure that we give existing employers the support and encouragement that they need to invest and grow.

We must also look at what we can do to encourage new employers and companies to come to the area. I am not talking so much about financial assistance, but we can offer a high-quality, highly skilled work force and employers can look to grow their businesses. Large employers such as Airbus—with more than 6,500 employers on site, it is one of the largest manufacturing plants in western Europe—have a role in encouraging their suppliers to site themselves nearby. Airbus has been successful in doing so, and we now have about 2,000 employees who work for Airbus’s supply companies. That makes sense for the supplier and the prime, because it is much easier to sort out problems if people can walk or drive across from one company to another than it is if goods are brought in from a long way away or even from a different country.

[Chris Ruane]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way yet again. He mentioned the fact that some 7,000 people work in the Airbus factory in his constituency. There is another factory in Filton, near Bristol, and 70,000 people are involved in the supply chain. What impact would withdrawal from the EU have on the 70,000 who work in the supply chain of the joint European Airbus?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Tami]

That would have a massive impact. If my hon. Friend can wait a little longer—I am sure that he can—I will address that point towards the end of my remarks.

I mentioned the importance of a quality work force in attracting new companies to the area. That does not happen by accident; it happens because we train the people who are needed. Coleg Cambria has an excellent record of doing such work. It works with employers to develop training packages that meet their needs, rather than offering, and only ever having offered, an off-the-shelf programme that people can take or leave; I believe that that has been a failing of some further education colleges. Coleg Cambria is good at looking to deliver what employers want. I have talked to companies such as Raytheon, and they are pleased with the arrangement, which includes work placements. The arrangement works well.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman rightly praises Coleg Cambria for its engagement with industry, but is it not the case that Glyndwr university in Wrexham has a similar relationship with, for example, Airbus and that such education links across north Wales give the region added value to prospective employers?

[Mark Tami]

It does indeed. I was just about to mention Glyndwr university, which is important. Both further education and higher education institutions have to be adaptable and have to consider how they can deliver the skill base that employers need, rather than just offering courses that have not changed for years. We need such flexibility, which is important.

There are still many hurdles to get over in changing attitudes, particularly towards apprenticeships, and we have to be honest about that. There is still a culture in this country that apprenticeships are done by people who do not go to university, and who perhaps do not have the skills to go to university. In many people’s minds, apprenticeships are a second-class thing to do. I do not hold that view—it is totally wrong—but we have to be honest and admit that people still hold it, and that we have to counter it.

We are light years behind Germany and some other countries where apprenticeships and university are on the same level, and people have the opportunity to take up an apprenticeship that can lead to a university education. Airbus, through the higher apprenticeship scheme, is doing that, but far more employers should be going down that route. It should not be an either/or; people should be able to move seamlessly through one to the other. We are a long way from that. It is no good just talking about the importance of apprenticeships. We have to deliver apprenticeships for people across the gamut of qualifications so that they can move. We will then change the attitude towards the importance of engineering, but we are a long way off that at the moment.

The Deeside enterprise zone established by the Labour Welsh Government offers a great opportunity to create thousands of jobs, but it also creates challenges. The northern gateway project is a major opportunity, and I am pleased that the Welsh Government announced that they will be funding a highway through the site, which will help to speed up growth. I also welcome the £2.2 million investment for flood defences, which are long overdue and are part and parcel of that new site.

There will be other road improvements. Work on the A483-A55 intersection is still ongoing. I recognise that there are major concerns about delays but, if we are honest, the time will never be right for making road changes, which will always cause problems. If someone has a magical solution for making those road changes without causing delays, I would love to hear it. The intersection is a pinch point that needs to be addressed, and I am pleased that is happening.

As I said at the beginning of my speech, rail is the major area in which a lot of work remains to be done. Cross-party colleagues and I recently attended a meeting of the North Wales economic ambition board, in which it presented its case for the electrification of the railway line from the north-west across north Wales. The board pointed out that north Wales has not received any major investment in rail since Queen Victoria was on the throne. My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) probably remembers those days, but most of us in this room do not.

The board estimates that electrification across north Wales to Holyhead would create some £400 million in economic growth, help to regenerate areas that have suffered for many years and promote inward investment. If electrification stops at Chester, the board’s evidence shows that there would be a negative impact on the economy of north Wales, and even on the economy in England, too. If the project is to go ahead, we clearly need joined-up thinking to extend electrification for the length of the route. For that to happen, the Department for Transport, the Welsh Government, local government and the train operators need to work together. Although electrification is on the list of infrastructure investment projects and priorities for Wales published by the Wales Office, there is no start date, and the status is “locally supported,” which I presume is code for there not being any money and the project not being on the blocks to go ahead—certainly not in the short or medium term.

I am sure we would all like the electrification to go ahead, but if the reality is that it will not go ahead in the short or medium term, we have to consider what we can achieve on a smaller scale, and whether we can perhaps deliver economic benefit without that massive injection; electrification would clearly be an extremely costly project. The reinstatement of the Halton curve with a more modest £10.4 million investment, which I welcome, will have a positive effect. My hobby-horse, and the hobby-horse of my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas), is the Wrexham-Bidston line. It would be fair to say that we have been banging on about that for many years. It could offer real benefits, including an improved service with more trains running. Longer term, the line could be electrified and have a dedicated station for the Deeside enterprise zone. The line could make a real difference, because Flintshire has one of the country’s highest rates of people travelling to work by car, which probably tells us all we need to know about how well our rail routes, and probably bus routes, work.

Broadband coverage in the area is improving, although not where I live, but that is probably my fault as much as anything else. We still have a long way to go before we can say that we have cracked it. A number of companies and individuals have come to see me, and they have been told that they have good coverage in their area, but when they started operations they found out that the coverage was actually very poor. It is all very well for the Government to say that 90% or so of people are covered, but that is not the same as saying that 90% or so of the country is covered. Rural areas are particularly badly affected. Broadband is not an optional extra for businesses today; it is not something they can pick and choose. If they do not have broadband, their business will suffer. The way in which we all do business has changed, which is why we have to improve broadband coverage. This is not just about rural areas, because we have not-spots in our towns, too.

Energy infrastructure is extremely important. I do not want to go on a lot about that, because my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) will have something to say on the subject, but I will mention my concern about the viability of Deeside and Connah’s Quay power stations in the longer term. They are older gas stations, but they play an important role in meeting peak demand. They can operate only if they receive the right support to make them viable.

House building is another issue, because if we are encouraging companies to site in north Wales, their employees have to live somewhere. We need more affordable housing, not just to buy but to rent. I applaud Flintshire county council for starting a council house building programme, which is an important step that will help a lot of people. Like many colleagues, I know a lot of families in which both adults are working but cannot get a first step on the ladder. Getting on that ladder is very important in encouraging people to site themselves in the area. We are moving in the right direction, but major concerns remain about our rail network. We are doing better than some areas, but there is room for improvement.

Finally—my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd has been waiting for this moment—I worry that all that good work could be undone if we put everything at risk by exiting the European Union. That would have a devastating impact on companies in our area such as Airbus and Toyota, among many others. I do not think that they would shut up shop and go the following day, but I worry that we would not see further investment, and then we would see operations starting to go back the other way. Companies such as Airbus are European partnerships, which are a great example of how Europe can and should work. Our European partners—the Germans, the French and the Spanish—would love to have that wing work. Let us not kid ourselves: if we think that they would not push harder for that work and make the case about all the difficulties of us being outside the European Union, we are naive in the extreme.

To believe that we can leave the EU and then establish trade arrangements so that we can carry on exactly as before is as ludicrous. We are not Norway, and even it has to abide by the same rules and regulations to sell its goods, but it does not have a chair at the table when those rules and regulations are being made. The think-tank Open Europe published a report this week that warned that, in one scenario, UK GDP could be 2.2% lower by 2030 if Britain leaves the EU and fails to establish liberal trading arrangements.

[Albert Owen]

On Europe, it is worth pointing out that we have £200 million net going into Welsh coffers from Europe. The Welsh economy would suffer if we were to withdraw, or consider withdrawal, from the European Union.

[Mark Tami]

That is a good point. We hear a lot in the press about what we put into Europe, but we do not hear much about the important work done with money flowing out of Europe to Wales, and the real difference that that makes to people’s lives. That is a real threat, and we should not underestimate the damage that it could do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

I have already said many times and I am quite happy to repeat—that is why I started by saying that frequently I think politicians in London and Cardiff do not fully understand the north Wales element—that whenever any such issues touch and concern the interests of the people of north Wales, their representatives should have the right to speak on those issues in this Parliament.

[Mark Tami]

I am very pleased to hear what the right hon. Gentleman has to say. He makes a very strong point, and one of the best examples of what he is talking about is the Countess of Chester hospital. It was absolutely established not as an English hospital but as an English and Welsh hospital, and its catchment area is Deeside and Chester; it serves Deeside as much as it serves Chester. It would not be viable without Welsh patients, so to look at it as purely an English hospital would be wrong, and he is absolutely right that people outside our area do not understand how that dynamic works.

[Mr Jones]

Yes, the hon. Gentleman is entirely right. In fact, that is a point that I put to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House when he announced the proposed arrangements for so-called English votes for English laws.

We must have regard to the fact that people in north Wales rely on English services, not only health services but in so many other respects. Our people work across the border, and, as the hon. Gentleman rightly said, people from the north-west of England work in factories, such as Airbus, Toyota and so on, on the Welsh side of the border. It is essential that people in north Wales should have proper representation in this place whenever necessary.

Frankly, one of the other difficulties is that there has been an unfortunate tendency to equate Wales and Scotland. Wales is a very different place from Scotland. The border of north Wales is highly populated, whereas the border between England and Scotland is not. It is essential that Members from all parties should ensure that, whenever the concerns of people from Wales are debated in this place, their representatives have a full voice in those debates.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns]

Absolutely, let the people decide. Industries and businesses invest for the long term and would not be investing now if, as the Opposition say, the position of the UK Government was undermining their future plans. That clearly is not the case. Britain is getting 50% more inward investment than either France or Germany, the next two biggest recipients of foreign direct investment. The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) specifically mentioned Airbus, but Tom Enders has said:

“Regardless of which decision the UK will make, we are strongly committed to our operations in the UK, which are key to the long-term future of our group.”

The evidence is quite clear, from statements from the chief executive of Airbus to the record amount of inward investment coming to north Wales. Putting doubt about the UK’s role in Europe in the minds of potential investors does not support the economic growth of the area.

[Mark Tami]

Does the Minister not accept that many companies, big and small, will not speak publicly about or get involved in politics—probably rightly—but will have concerns that they raise in private? My hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn has mentioned some of those concerns this morning. It is incredibly naive to dismiss this issue as if it is not a fear or a threat when it is. It is a serious problem that we have to address.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, but even if I accepted it, quite obviously businesses would not be spending and investing sums of money if they had the doubts that the hon. Member for Ynys Môn has shared.

I am sorry that the time has gone in which I could have focused on rail investment. Important points have been made about the Halton curve, the Wrexham to Bidston line and the Deeside and Wirral Waters relationship, which was raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West. Those are really important issues. We must focus on the economic value released by railway investments rather than purely on passenger numbers or environmental benefits. Economic benefits are important, and I was delighted that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) focused on releasing economic potential in the report to the Department for Transport by the North of England Electrification Task Force.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Tami Excerpts

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

If the hon. Gentleman thinks that is any kind of boon for the Welsh economy, I point him to the opinion poll conducted by BBC Wales which this morning shows that a majority of voters across Wales, even in the Labour heartlands—from Rhondda to Cynon Valley, from Caerphilly to Pontypridd—prefer my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to remain as leader rather than the Leader of the Opposition.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

2. What recent discussions he has had with business representatives in Wales on the importance of membership of the EU to the Welsh economy.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Membership of the European Union’s single market is good for businesses in Wales. However, businesses tell me that the burdens and costs imposed by the European Union are making it harder for them to grow. This Government are determined to renegotiate our membership with the European Union to get a better deal for Wales and for UK businesses, and to put that to the people.

[Mark Tami]

How many tens of thousands of jobs in Wales does the Minister think would be at risk if the UK left the EU?

[Alun Cairns]

A renegotiated European Union provides greater opportunities for businesses in Wales. I know that the hon. Gentleman shows great interest in Airbus, which says:

“Regardless of which decision the UK will make, we are strongly committed to our operations in the UK”.

The British Chambers of Commerce also supports that position. I am absolutely confident that the growth in Wales will contribute to more jobs and provide more of the certainty that people want.

Employment in Wales

Mark Tami Excerpts

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Westminster Hall

[Chris Ruane]

The hon. Gentleman may have a point, as the Government have cut back the number of members of the armed forces dramatically; but I see a closure as a closure.

Last Thursday, I met Jane Hutt, the brilliant Welsh Finance Minister who is masterminding much of the investment that I have mentioned. We met at Rhyl high school, which as I said is undergoing a £25 million rebuild. The contractors, Willmott Dixon, said that 60% of the investment will be spent within a 30-mile radius of Rhyl. The jobs, training and growth from that investment will be multiplied many times over because of local procurement. The Labour Welsh Government are playing a vital role in ensuring that my constituency is able to withstand the ravages of Tory cuts.

In Vale of Clwyd and, indeed, in the neighbouring constituency Clwyd West—it is interesting that the right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) is not here today—there is a huge percentage of public sector workers; 37% of the workers in those two constituencies work in the public sector. What will happen when we have these huge cuts? We know what has happened in the past. In the early 1980s, Shotton steelworks closed, and 7,000 jobs were lost in one day—the biggest lay-off in British industrial history—with no help or intervention from the Tories.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

I am sorry to intervene on my hon. Friend when he is making that important point, but may I just correct him? Over 8,000 jobs were lost on that day, and the area still shows the effects of that devastating loss of jobs—still the largest single loss of jobs at a single plant on a single day in the UK.

[Chris Ruane]

I thank my hon. Friend for that, and I accept his correction.

The Government in the 1980s gave no support. There was no compassion and no thought. Areas were almost punished for being Labour. I have repeatedly asked Tory Ministers, from the Chancellor to the Secretary of State for Wales, what measures are in place to help the rebalancing between the public and private sectors in areas with large numbers of public sector workers. In one constituency, which is, I think, in Edinburgh, 78% of the workers are in the public sector, but there is no help from this cold-hearted Conservative Government.

Finally, I turn to Europe. Shotton was rescued by the rise of Airbus. The factory has 7,000 workers and 600 apprentices, and there are 70,000 jobs in the supply chain—it is one of the biggest factories in western Europe. This is a joint European venture, which includes Spain, Germany and France; it is a living example of how co-operation is better than confrontation. However, those jobs will go if we pull out of Europe, as Tory Back Benchers—I am sure there are a few out there now—want us to. There would be massive job losses at not just Airbus, but Toyota and other foreign inward investment businesses, which have said they will leave Britain if it pulls out of the EU.

In St Asaph, in my constituency, work is being done on the Extremely Large Telescope—a £2 billion project to put the biggest telescope the world has ever seen in the Atacama desert in Chile. The lenses alone will be £200 million. I hope they will be made in my constituency, but there is no chance that that will happen, with the high-tech, highly skilled jobs that the project would bring, if we pull out of the EU.

[Mark Tami]

My hon. Friend is correct about Airbus. Does he agree that such companies have choices? They do not have to invest in the UK. Airbus is an example of a good partnership, but, equally, the factories in Germany, France and Spain want the wing work we have in this country, and further investment in the Broughton plant would be in doubt if we were outside Europe.

[Chris Ruane]

Absolutely. The Conservative element of the Government thinks we can pull out of Europe, where we do about 40% of our trade, and stick two fingers up to it, and that everything will be the same afterwards—that that trade and co-operation will carry on. That will not be the case. Europe will punish us. It does not want us to pull out; it wants us to be included. We are 60 million people out of 6 billion—1% of the world’s population. If we pull away from Europe, our voice will be miniscule. We are part of the biggest trading bloc in the world’s history.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

No, I do not think I will—I shall retaliate in kind. The hon. Gentleman had his opportunity.

[Mark Tami]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way to me?

[Guto Bebb]

Of course.

[Mark Tami]

Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that, even if we do accept that more jobs are coming in, we are also losing jobs? A few days ago, we had the announcement that 120 jobs were going at the Shotton paper mill. Although I welcome all jobs, replacing those quality, highly skilled jobs with minimum wage jobs is not the same thing.

[Guto Bebb]

I accept entirely that we would be disappointed to see job losses in any part of Wales. I know full well how the north Wales economy works, and a number of people who work in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency live in mine. People travel to work down the A55 corridor, whether that is from east to west or west to east. Even though the road makes that difficult, I often meet people who work in Chester or in Alyn and Deeside when I am out canvassing. I accept that any job lost is a concern, but it is important to remember that although the Labour party has been highlighting the doom and gloom, and saying that Wales will never recover from public sector job cuts, the number of jobs created in the private sector in Wales has far exceeded the number lost in the public sector.

In that respect, we need to respond to the slur made by the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd regarding Government Members’ attitude towards public sector workers. I have never heard a Government Member criticise anybody who works in the public sector. The one simple point we have made is that we need to have fairness between those who work in the public sector and the majority—even in Wales—who work in the private sector. Do public sector workers have gold-plated pensions? No, they do not in terms of what they get out of their pensions, but in comparison with the situation for somebody in my constituency who is self-employed, “gold-plated” is a fair description. The changes the Government have brought in simply move the balance of pension contributions slightly from the taxpayer to the recipients of the significant pensions in the public sector. The Government’s changes on pensions are to be applauded because they have ensured that we retain a degree of support for those who opt to serve in the public sector, and that support is well beyond what is available to those who work in the private sector.

The hon. Gentleman should remember a simple point: even on trade union figures, the average public sector pension is about £8,000, and that is equivalent to a pension pot of roughly £120,000. If Labour Members do care about people in Wales, they should be aware that the average pension pot for somebody in the private sector in Wales is £30,000. Even the trade union figures still imply that people in the public sector have a fund that is four times more than that of somebody in the private sector, but I see no concern among Labour Members about the situation faced by the vast majority of Welsh workers.

It is important to highlight that Labour Members have said time and time again that there is concern about youth unemployment. What we have seen, however, is that there is a difference between what happens when Labour is in power and what Labour thinks happens when it is in power. In my constituency, for example, youth unemployment has fallen by almost 50% since 2010. That fantastic achievement is the result of this Government’s attitude that people are better off in work than not working. Under the previous Government, youth unemployment went up and the benefits system picked up the strain. Nobody who is young should be on benefits; they should be able to be trained and to get work, and that is exactly what we are seeing in Aberconwy as a result of the Government’s changes.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Tami Excerpts

Wednesday 21st January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

6. What recent estimate he has made of the number of households in Wales that have received a reduction in benefits since the introduction of the under-occupancy penalty.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

7. What assessment he has made of the implications for the Government’s policies of the Auditor General for Wales’s report on “Managing the Impact of Welfare Reform Changes on Social Housing Tenants in Wales”, published in January 2015.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

This Government will not shy away from the financial and social responsibility of reforming the way in which housing benefit is allocated. There are no plans to change Government policy following the report from the Auditor General for Wales. We plan to use this report to support local authorities to respond better to local needs.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns]

The right hon. Gentleman raises an important point because the number of new social properties built in Wales over the past three years is, proportionately, far fewer than the number built in England over the same period. The Welsh Government have a responsibility to deliver in that area. The Wales Audit Office report also highlights the fact that 47% of tenants had no advice given to them on how better to manage the spare room subsidy and the obligations that it would bring.

[Mark Tami]

Will the Minister explain why it is right to force disabled people out of a home and into a smaller property—should one exist in the first place—rip out all the adaptations that have been made to that property and, presumably, put new ones into a second property? Apart from being cruel, how can such action possibly be cost-effective?

[Alun Cairns]

This Government have made additional money available through the discretionary housing payment to help individuals facing difficult circumstances. Only three out of 22 local authorities in the whole of Wales—Cardiff, Caerphilly and Conwy—applied for additional discretionary housing payments. The hon. Gentleman’s local authority did not do that. Let us be clear: the roots of the removal of the spare room subsidy lie deeply in the Labour Benches, because it was a Labour Administration who took it away from the private-rented sector. We are merely extending that principle to the social-rented sector.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Tami Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

7. What assessment he has made of the reasons for changes in average weekly earnings in Wales in the last 12 months.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

10. What assessment he has made of the reasons for changes in average weekly earnings in Wales in the last 12 months; and if he will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

Salary levels are not where we would like them to be, but over the past year the earnings gap between Wales and the average for the UK as a whole has narrowed. Since 2010, average earnings in Wales have increased by more than the UK average, and Wales has seen the second largest increase of all the English regions and devolved nations.

[Alun Cairns]

The Wales Office already pays above the living wage. That is an important part of our policy, but it is a matter for employers. The best solution is to deliver a long-term economic plan so that employers can pay the living wage where possible. The greater competition that we see in the work force will help to drive wages even further.

[Mark Tami]

Average earnings in Flintshire fell again this year by 1.5%, in the Vale of Glamorgan by 1.3% and in Pembrokeshire by 5%. When will the Government own up to their terrible management of the economy and deliver for Welsh families?

[Alun Cairns]

That accusation about the management of the economy is not reflected in the fastest growing economy among the developed nations of the world, because this Government’s long-term economic plan is working. The hon. Gentleman talks of average increases in salary. The trends from 2010 to the present show that average weekly earnings in Wales have increased by 5%, compared with 3.9% across the whole of the UK.