Universal Credit

Mark Hoban Excerpts

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I must say that I think that the hon. Lady thought that up about a week ago, before she even got near what I have just said in the statement, but never mind—she likes to rehash the old ones, and we will deal with them. She made the point at the end of her statement that somehow the Work programme is not working. The Work programme is outperforming all of the figures that it was meant to. It is also outperforming what we were left by the previous Labour Government: record unemployment and more people who had lost work as a result of their crashed economy. We have more people in work than ever before and more young people now returning to work. Those are the standing plans.

Let me deal with some of the other issues the hon. Lady raised. She talked about what we are doing on universal services. We have already undertaken a huge amount of consultative processes with local authorities and all other partners in the areas. We have a programme called universal services, to be delivered locally, and we are working closely with the Local Government Association in trialling all sorts of elements of that, including the exchange of information on housing, which is an area that previously was not working. The LGA is represented on the programme of governance, the partnership forum and the universal credit transition working group. As universal credit is expanded nationally, delivery partnership agreements will be established locally so that local authorities, jobcentres, landlords and employers can adjust their requirements to prepare for the UC roll-out. That is taking place at the moment and it is helping to inform hugely the process of helping to improve the nature of the roll-out.

As I said in my statement—I repeat this because the hon. Lady seemed not to have picked it up—40,000 people had claimed, over 20,000 had completed the claim process, and 17,500 were currently on universal credit. [Interruption.] No, that is exactly what they have done. Forty thousand had claimed, 20,000 had made the claim and received—[Interruption.] I do not want to go through this nonsense with her. Let me remind her that many of those who started a claim went to work and therefore never completed the process. In case she thinks it is not worth people claiming the benefit because they are not staying on it, our position is that the purpose is to get them off the benefit and into work.

I will be happy to give the hon. Lady a list of the one in three jobcentres that will be covered by the spring. As I said, by the end of this year one in eight jobcentres will be covered. Families will be included. Depending on the type of claimants and their particular issues, they will be dealt with in jobcentres as the benefit is rolled out to them. The timing and delivery remain exactly as they were.

As we have announced today, we will also be rolling out the first part of the digital trial process, and that will inform us hugely on how we will be able to roll out and expand the system. The hon. Lady said that I had only just announced the timing of the roll-out, but in fact I had said it previously. She might want to ask the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), who is sitting next to her, about that. All the dates were in the answer to a parliamentary question from him about a week and a half ago; I cannot remember the exact date. Nothing has been hidden at all—we have been very clear about it.

The long-term strategic outline business case covers the lifetime of the programme from 2023 to 2024 and provides even more granular detail on costs and benefits and delivery planning until, it is expected, 2025. The MPA has approved our roll-out plans and given them a very strong sign-off.

The hon. Lady asked about the information that will be shared automatically. Claimants are asked to give consent to our universal credit teams sharing information about their claims with local authorities to help to highlight extra support that may be needed.

The hon. Lady says that she is in favour of universal credit in principle, but she has voted against it and attacked every single thing to do with it, just as Labour Members say they are in favour of welfare reform in principle but attack and vote against every single part of what we are doing. I have to say that the way she is going, she will get a lot of practice at being in opposition.

[Mr Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con)]

I commend my right hon. Friend for the methodical way in which he is going about the implementation of universal credit. My constituents suffered from over-payments, under-payments and mis-payments under tax credits because Labour in government botched the implementation of the system by doing it as one big bang. We cannot afford the same thing to happen in this case. That is why he is absolutely right to introduce in the way that he is to make sure that it works before it is rolled out further. We should be commending him for that and for not repeating Labour’s mistakes.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I thank my hon. Friend; he is exactly right. We have worked on this together. As he knows very well, taking the early decisions to ensure that the programme rolls out safely and securely is far more important than, as the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) seems to suggest, rattling ahead regardless of the consequences. That is exactly what happened with tax credits, where, on day one, 400,000-plus people did not receive any benefits. The disaster of tax credits has stayed with us ever since.

Pension Schemes Bill

Mark Hoban Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con)]

I apologise to my right hon. Friend the Minister for missing some of his speech and to the hon. Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont) for missing his. I had hoped to be here for both, but owing to the length of the urgent question and another engagement outside the House, I could not be. Nevertheless, I am delighted to be here in time to make a contribution.

On the Government’s legacy, as my right hon. Friend said, our pension reforms have been one of our key acts in government. We have done a huge amount to reform the pensions system we inherited and to implement auto-enrolment. The Chair of the Work and Pensions Select Committee, the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), gives the previous Government credit for auto-enrolment, but my right hon. Friend was right to talk about the practical changes we have made to make it work. He also made the powerful and important point that the take-up rate for smaller businesses during roll-out has exceeded expectations. A lot of people expected the rate to fall, but it should now be recognised that many people currently not saving for retirement see auto-enrolment as a key way of protecting themselves and their families in retirement.

The changes that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced in the Budget to give people control over their pension pots in retirement are also important and fit in with other reforms, such as raising the state retirement age, introducing the triple lock and uprating the state pension. We provided a state pension that is both fair and affordable in the long term. We made a change to pension tax relief, too, ensuring that it is both fair and affordable as well. The cumulative effect of those reforms is to ensure that people will save more towards their retirement, that more people will indeed save for it and that they will be rewarded for doing so. We are treating those who retire as grown-ups, able to manage their own money.

The work we have done so far is important, but I do not think the job is done. That is why the Bill is so important. We know that under defined-benefits schemes, those who worked knew that every year of their employment helped to build up a guaranteed pension income—a fraction of their final salary—thus providing certainty. In building up that guaranteed income, once the employee had made a contribution, the cost of providing the guarantee rested with the employer. If the investment return fell, the employers had to increase their contributions; if employees and pensions lived longer, the cost of the changes were again borne by the employer. In a way, of course, that guarantee sowed the seeds of the decline of defined-benefits contribution schemes, as it became increasingly expensive to provide that guarantee to employees. That accounts for the decline in DB schemes over a number of decades.

Under a defined-contributions scheme, it is of course the employee who bears the longevity risks in building up the pension pot. It is the employee who bears the investment risk, too. Certainty in retirement in return for a fixed contribution by the employee has been replaced by uncertainty, the cost of which is borne by employees.

The impact of the switch from DB to DC would have been mitigated if contribution rates had remained unchanged, but the impact of the transfer of risk has been compounded by the reduction in the level of contributions. The most recent Office for National Statistics figures I have seen show that the total contribution rate for DB schemes is 19.2%. The rate for DC schemes is under half that, at 9.4%. What does that mean in practice? As the Department’s own figures show, 11 million people between the age of 22 and state pension age will not save enough to deliver an adequate replacement income in retirement. Employees have thus seen a reduction in contributions to their pension schemes; they bear risks previously borne by their employer; and they bear uncertainty about the income they will enjoy in retirement.

Where does this Bill fit into that picture? Defined ambition can, through guarantees, help to provide greater certainty in retirement. I think the second area where these schemes can have merit is in maximising the return on pension contributions for members. The collective nature of defined-ambition schemes creates economies of scale on the costs of running a pension scheme, which should help to improve the overall returns for employees. Furthermore, the open-ended nature of a collective scheme can change the investment strategy of a fund. For an individual scheme, as the employee moves towards retirement, the fund’s objectives move from seeking capital growth towards locking in gains already made, providing greater certainty about the size of the member’s pension pot. An open-ended scheme and particularly a collective scheme should shift the investment strategy towards capital growth and away from simply locking in growth—a point to which I shall return in a minute.

The second area where defined ambition will help is through the use of guarantees to deliver more certain outcomes for employees. As I said, one of the merits of DB schemes for employees is that they guarantee an income. Depending on the scheme, people will know after a year’s service that they will have “banked” an 80th or a 60th or a 40th of a year’s salary or the salary on retirement. With a DC scheme, all people know, in effect, is that they have made contributions of X and made net investment gains of Y; and while the pensions statement will project a monthly income in retirement, it will be based on how much more they will contribute, the investment gains between now and retirement and the annuity rates at the point of retirement. The only thing known for certain about that projection is that it will be wrong.

The contrast between DC and DB schemes is stark; the question is whether we can bridge the gap between the certainty of DB and the uncertainty of DC. The Government’s vision of DA or shared-risk schemes is, to quote the Government response to the consultation,

“to secure a guarantee on the income that will be received in retirement, that builds up gradually during the savings period”.

There is a great deal of merit in that. The employee has visibility and certainty of income in retirement. That is one of the great assets of DB schemes. That helps people to see how much they will have in retirement and, crucially, helps them plan for retirement. However, the crucial distinction is that, in defined-ambition schemes, the employer’s contribution is fixed. Therefore, if the income is guaranteed, the cost of that guarantee must be borne by the scheme members.

I would like to understand a bit more what the Financial Secretary expects those guarantees to look like and how he expects them to be financed. What proportion of the pension does he expect to be guaranteed? Presumably, in the same way that insurance companies have to provide solvency reserves for the guarantees that they issue, defined-ambition schemes will need to provide reserves to fund the guarantees.

I think it will be the case that the higher the guaranteed element, the greater the shift in asset allocation away from risk seeking and capital growth towards capital protection—in effect the challenge facing individual DC schemes but on a collective basis. Who will design the rules for determining the reserves to be held against the guarantees? Will it be the Pensions Regulator or the Prudential Regulation Authority? Will it depend on whether the scheme is trust or contract-based?

I believe that these measures create opportunities for a new model of pension scheme. That model will smooth some of the rough edges of the transition from DB to DC schemes. It should help to reduce the risk for employees. However, it is not without its challenges. For it to work effectively, schemes will need to reach a critical mass in terms of membership to enable the economies of scale to work their way through and to ensure that there is a sufficient flow of people coming into and out of the scheme—that there are new members and those new members balance the number of members ceasing to be active members. The formula that drives the payouts from the scheme will need to be carefully thought through to ensure intergenerational fairness, so that younger members are not subsidising pensioners.

In the Netherlands, schemes have been established on a sectoral basis reflecting the social model there. That helps to deliver the critical mass needed for the schemes to obtain economies of scale and smooth investment returns. How does my right hon. Friend the Minister think schemes in the UK will achieve that scale? Does he envisage that schemes will be built on a sectoral basis, or does he envisage some master scheme being set up that will be open to all businesses?

[Steve Webb]

I am enjoying my hon. Friend’s characteristically well-informed speech. To reassure him on industry schemes, when we visited the Netherlands to look at how the system is run there, we came across the Dutch tulip growers scheme. I can reassure him that we do not have such narrow definitions in mind.

[Mr Hoban]

I am not sure that tulips and the Netherlands are necessarily an appropriate model. One of the earliest financial crashes was in the price of tulip bulbs, so it may not be a model to follow. However, the point about sectoral and non-sectoral schemes is important. Other countries have had success where they have had a social model—a relationship between employers and employees—that we do not necessarily see in the UK. There will be questions about how to encourage more employers to come together to create these schemes. Perhaps there is a role for insurers in that regard.

Although these schemes aim to boost returns and offset some of the impact of under-saving, we need to do more to help people save more towards retirement. Auto-enrolment will help to ensure that more people are saving, but as I pointed out earlier, the DWP’s figures estimated that some 11 million people would not save enough to meet the recommended replacement income for retirement. If we look at contribution rates to pension schemes in other countries, we will see that the 8% auto-enrolment rate lags behind the rate in other countries that have established innovative pension schemes. In Australia, the contribution rate to the Super scheme is heading towards 12%, and in the Netherlands—the Minister mentioned the Netherlands, so I feel at liberty to talk about it—the contribution rate to the scheme is over 20%, which is significantly higher. We have some way to go before we match those contribution levels.

I think it would be wrong to contemplate increasing contribution rates before the roll-out of auto-enrolment has been completed, but we should not ignore the fact that people are not saving enough towards their retirement and we need to find ways to help people to build higher contributions. There are ways in which we can do that. We have not done enough to draw on the insights from behavioural economics and initiatives such as Save More Tomorrow, which has been adopted in some parts of the United States, which encourage people to increase their contribution rates when their pay rises, making a commitment today to secure increased contributions in the future. I think we can look at the way in which fiscal incentives encourage those on low incomes to save more towards their retirement, and I certainly think we can support people to make better choices on retirement. That is a significant area that we need to focus on, and it is the last point I want to touch on in my speech.

As I said at the start, we have introduced a series of radical reforms to the pensions system over the past four and a half years. However, to make the most of the freedoms that we need, we must make sure people have the necessary support to make the right choices both when they are building up their pension pot and when they choose to use it. That is why I am very supportive of the guidance guarantee. I know the Government are going to introduce amendments to this Bill, either in Committee or on Report, to introduce the guidance guarantee, and it is an important part of the package of legislation, but we must also think about how we can encourage the industry to go further to provide better guidance both before the point of retirement and afterwards. The decisions we make at the point of retirement are ones we would want to come to as individuals to revisit later on.

We need to find a service that will help those who feel they cannot afford independent financial advice without crowding out independent financial advisers, and we need to give people support to think about draw-down, annuities and the other products that are out there, to help them maximise their income over their retirement, and also to think, while they are saving, about what sort of lifestyle they want in retirement. Too often, people do not think about what they aspire to in retirement. They tend to shape their retirement around how much they have saved, rather than thinking before they retire, “This is what I would like to do. These are the holidays I’d like to have. This is the sort of lifestyle I’d like.” We need to give people more support in that regard.

I also believe we should be harnessing technology to draw together details of people’s savings—not just their pensions, but their individual savings accounts and bank savings—to end the complicating fragmentation of data. That should encourage people to look at the totality of their financial assets and use that information to engage with their retirement planning.

[Nigel Mills]

The one asset my hon. Friend did not mention is the house a person owns, which I suspect people will, as years go on, increasingly have to consider using for their own retirement, rather than passing that on to their children, as perhaps we all hope to do at the moment.

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend makes an important point and he is right to pick up on that omission. When we think about retirement, we should be thinking not just about pensions, but about a person’s income in retirement. Some of that will take the form of state pension; some will be interest on savings accounts; and some may come through work—depending on what age we retire at, and how we phase in our retirement. Certainly housing is a valuable asset, too, and very good work is being done by a number of organisations to look at how housing can be used, but we are still some way off having something that people will recognise as a good way to use their housing assets. As I say that, I feel a letter coming on from my former colleague Nigel Lawson on this point, but there is more work to be done in respect of how people view housing as an asset and how they can utilise that asset in retirement to supplement their income. We need to build out from the guidance guarantee, and more work will need to be done on that in the coming months.

I want to mention a point that has been raised with me and that I will probably talk about in more detail when the complementary tax Bill to this comes through later in the year: we must think about what sort of outcomes we expect people to see in retirement. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Pensions referred to a decade of innovation, but he will recollect that when we introduced reforms to liberalise the open market option, and to make that more of the default, there were some unforeseen challenges from that, and we have seen some of the consequences and the report published by the Financial Services Consumer Panel. I do think there is a responsibility on industry, the Government and the regulator to do some thinking about what good looks like under the new reforms and how we can help shape that post-retirement market. That would form an important part of the work.

I commend the Government on this comprehensive package of pension reforms. They will form a key part of our legacy, and they are an important way of expressing what we have achieved as a Government in setting down long-term foundations to help people to take more responsibility for their savings in retirement, to help them to save more in their retirement and to give them the freedom and choice that they need in their retirement. The Bill is part of that package, and I look forward to seeing how the schemes develop to help to provide people with more certainty in regard to their future pension incomes, when all they have seen up to now is increased uncertainty.

[Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to wind up this relatively short but interesting and important debate. Despite points of difference and disagreement, it has provided some thoughtful and wide-ranging speeches from both sides of the House, proving that it is quality, not quantity, that counts. Two excellent examples were provided by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain).

My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South made an important point about complexity and expressed her fear that increasing complexity as a result of the Government’s changes to pensions might hamper efforts to get younger people to engage with their pensions. She also rightly highlighted the increased risk of mis-selling that could result from any such complexity. I shall come back to that issue later. She also highlighted the importance of governance in relation to the collective defined-contributions schemes that are being introduced by the Bill. She was right to say that there was no obvious reason to omit those governance arrangements from the Bill and to leave them instead to be dealt with in secondary legislation. It is difficult to understand why the Bill is vague on that point, and I hope that the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will be able to illuminate the House further on that when he responds to the debate.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Neath, who is not in his place at the moment, made a powerful contribution to the debate, in which he set out the challenges posed by a rapidly ageing population. They are one reason why so much attention has been focused on pension arrangements. He also noted the challenges posed by the greater need for adult social care that results from a rapidly ageing population, the interplay between those changes, and the increasing burden on the present younger generation and future generations. He talked about our expectation of what those burdens would be like in the coming years. He was right to give us an historical perspective, particularly in relation to mis-selling during the years before 1997.

Pensions are an important issue for people. They worry about their retirement and their personal social care needs, and about whether they will be able to cope with those needs as and when they arise. They also worry about whether they will be able to leave anything behind for their children. As people live longer, it is more important than ever that they should make the best possible choices for themselves. As legislators, politicians need to ensure that the range of options available to people and the breadth of the arrangements they can make for their retirement are fit for purpose, especially as we are all living much longer. That poses great challenges for us all.

In that context, the Bill’s establishment of collective defined-contributions schemes—CDC schemes—is a welcome step in increasing the range of options available to people as they plan for their retirement. We will therefore not oppose the Bill on Second Reading, although there are areas in which we might seek to extend or strengthen it in Committee or on Report.

As I said, we support CDCs in principle. In sharing risk, they have the potential to give people a more adequate and reliable retirement income than individual defined-contributions schemes, because, unlike those schemes, CDCs can pool risk across and between generations. Given the difficulties and anxiety that many people feel about their living standards at the moment, we want to support working people who are struggling to set money aside for the future. We need to ensure that they have access to pension schemes that they can trust to give good value for money and a decent income in retirement.

CDCs are also well supported by the public. Research by the Institute for Public Policy Research carried out at the end of 2013 found that there was strong public support for a collective pension. It was the most popular of the options the IPPR tested and it appealed across those with different income levels, life stages and ages. If CDCs are to be well taken up and succeed, strong governance arrangements clearly need to be in place—that point was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont) said, the Bill is currently silent on governance arrangements for CDCs. The highest standards of governance are needed for schemes that are even more opaque than defined-contributions schemes because they have to manage pooled assets and conduct smoothing.

The silence in the Bill occurs despite the Government’s consultation “Reshaping workplace pensions for future generations”, which stated:

“Collective schemes are complex and can be opaque—because of the indirect relationship between contributions and benefits. This necessitates strong standards of communication and governance. We intend collective schemes to be overseen by experienced fiduciaries acting on behalf of members, taking decisions at scheme level and removing the need for individuals to make difficult choices over fund allocations and retirement income products.”

Failure to require all schemes to have trustees means that we will potentially have some CDCs run by trustees and others offered by private firms that seek to maximise their short-term returns.

The Minister will know that we have consistently argued that all workplace pension schemes must be run by trustees and have a legal duty to prioritise savers’ interests. Governance arrangements remain an issue for other defined-contributions schemes, which make up the majority of what is available. The Government could have taken more steps in the Bill to strengthen the governance of those schemes. The Government have declined to impose trustee boards, but have instead opted to require independent governance committees. We are concerned that they will be neither independent, nor governing in nature. In any event, IGCs contain serious conflicts of interest, so we will argue in Committee that the Government should instead follow Labour’s lead and require all pension schemes to have trustees and a legal duty to prioritise the interests of savers above all others.

Another issue discussed in the debate, which the Opposition will continue to press the Government on in Committee, is scale. The issue was raised by one Government Member and the Minister did engage with it when the point was made about whether small and medium-sized enterprises might be able to introduce CDCs or whether this would be the preserve of larger employers. He rightly said that it was going to depend primarily on scale and how popular these schemes end up being. The Bill, however, contains no measures that will help promote the scale which most independent observers believe is necessary for CDCs, and workplace pensions in general, to do the best they can for employees. We have long argued that measures to promote scale are vital to ensure the best possible outcomes for savers. So the Government could, for example, require that automatic transfers default into aggregators and the criteria necessary for qualifying as an aggregator should include scale. One or more of those schemes which met the qualifying criteria to be aggregators under our approach may then opt to be a CDC pension scheme.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East noted, the House of Commons briefing note on the Bill also says that

“certain conditions, such as large scale and strong governance, appear necessary for—

CDCs—

“to operate successfully.”

Three-quarters of respondents to the consultation prior to the Bill thought that Government intervention would be needed to create the scale necessary for schemes to offer guarantees. We will look in detail at issues around scale and governance when the Bill is considered in Committee.

We will also look at the National Employment Savings Trust, which is a trusted body for providing workplace pension schemes. It could potentially offer retirement income products or CDC and in doing so help constrain the industry and ensure that it provides decent products to all savers. However, to do so most efficiently, it would need to have its restrictions lifted. As was mentioned earlier, the Government said in July 2013 that they would legislate to lift the restrictions as soon as possible, but they have not yet done so. It would be helpful if the Minister told us whether that is something that will be taken forward by the Government, and when it will be discussed in Committee.

The second part of the debate dealt with the new arrangements around flexibility. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East stated at the outset, we have supported greater flexibility in relation to pension arrangements, but we have set out three tests for the new flexibility. First, is there robust advice for people who are saving for their retirement? Secondly, is the system fair to those on middle and lower incomes who want a secure retirement income? Thirdly, are the Government sure that the changes will not result in extra costs to the state either through social care or by increasing housing benefit bills?

In relation to the first test, the expectation is that the Government will propose an amendment to the draft Bill around the guidance guarantee. As it has not yet been published, it is not clear whether it will be robust enough. It would be helpful if the Minister gave additional information to the House now so that we are not waiting until the Bill reaches Committee before we know what is happening about guidance.

As many Members noted, guidance will have to be well thought through and reflect the practical steps that people take as they move towards retirement. To be effective in practice, guidance will need to include a discussion of the effects of drawdown on the individual’s tax situation. It will also need to explain the consequences of decisions regarding the different forms of saving on the extent to which local authorities can seek to recover sums for long-term care. The Government’s response to the consultation “Freedom and Choice in Pensions” indicates that drawdown is likely to be treated similarly to annuities in that income and not capital is assessed. Again, that is something that we will have to look at and examine further in Committee.

Some specific questions arise as well. For example, if guidance is a single event, how will it assist an individual seeking the necessary later event, perhaps 20 years later, of switching from a drawdown product to an annuity? Draw-down products are likely to be insufficient on their own for savers and individuals will need to insure against longevity risk to ensure that they do not run out of money during their retirement. Will there be a requirement for products to include a regular review of when the optimal moment for switching to an annuity should occur?

We have had a number of debates, both on the Floor of the House and in Committee, around the issue of advice and guidance and the very clear difference that there is between the two. There is a fear among many Members across the House that guidance on pension changes alone might not be enough to help people make the best possible choice. Ultimately, the course that the Government choose will have to be carefully scrutinised and reviewed. As I have said, this matter is of great interest to Members on both sides of the House.

[Mr Hoban]

Will the hon. Lady make her position clear? Is she saying that what should be offered to every person retiring is regulated advice?

[Shabana Mahmood]

No, we have not called for regulated advice, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will agree that these are big decisions for people. We must ensure that what the Government envisage will be up to the job of ensuring that they have all the information they need before then to make the best possible choice. As I have said, we have had a number of debates on this subject and the Government have given us some idea of the guidance they envisage, but I think we will have to return to these issues in Committee to ensure that that guidance is as robust as it can possibly be.

[Mr Hoban]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way, as she is being very generous. If she does not want to see regulated advice given, what is she looking for?

[Shabana Mahmood]

To the extent that we have this debate about advice and guidance, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will recall that it was the Chancellor who said in his Budget speech that advice would be provided to people about making their decisions. We then moved quickly into the world of guidance and the two are, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman will acknowledge, very different. That is why we are concerned that the guidance on offer will not be quite as good as we might expect if advice were on offer. That is why it will be important that Members on both sides of the House stress test the final package that the Government come up with.

The TUC has rightly questioned whether guidance on its own is sufficient. It states:

“Independent guidance is clearly better than that provided by company sales teams, but half an hour of the best possible advice will not equip people for what could be thirty years of managing their pension pot… Expecting the market to deliver retirement income solutions that work for the great majority is unrealistic. The annuities market was broken, but what we need is the same careful consideration of policy, consumer preference and evidence that led to pensions auto-enrolment.”

It is clear that a number of very complex factors will play against each other, with some inherent tensions that were noted by Members on both sides of the House in their speeches. It is important that we stress test the measures properly in Committee.

The Bill introduces a number of measures that we support, and as I have highlighted, there are some issues on which we think that the Bill could be strengthened. We look forward to picking up those issues with the Minister in Committee.

Universal Credit

Mark Hoban Excerpts

Wednesday 9th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have said to the hon. Lady that we are happy to sit down to discuss this matter with her. I remind her that no other Government have ever published business cases, but I am happy to consider what she asks.

[Mr Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that Opposition Members today have focused on process because they do not want to confront the reality that the welfare reforms that we have implemented successfully have helped to tackle unemployment—they have got more people into work—and that universal credit is essential in making it clear to people that work pays?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The reality is that our welfare reforms are working, and our pensions reforms are working. The truth is that the Opposition have absolutely nothing to say about any of this. Instead, they want to delve and delve into the detail, but that will not tell them anything. Universal credit—started by this Government—will be a great success: it will get more people into work, and it will secure more households with greater earnings.

DWP: Performance

Mark Hoban Excerpts

Monday 30th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con)]

I have sat through this debate and listened carefully to speeches made by Opposition Members, and it appears to me that they believe that history started when this Government came into office. A collective act of amnesia has taken place, as demonstrated by the hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams). She needs to remember that employment and support allowance and the work capability assessment were introduced when her party was in government. It designed the system and the process, and it awarded the contract to Atos, so Labour Members have to think about their role in all this. Not only did they demonstrate collective amnesia, but they have not put forward one idea as to how we can reform welfare, how we tackle dependency and how we help more people get back into work. Labour Members have forgotten their record and the scale of the challenge this Government inherited when we came into office in May 2010.

The Opposition have forgotten that they left behind a complex system of benefits, where it was unclear to those out of work whether they would be better off in work or out of work. I have sat down in jobcentres and heard Jobcentre Plus advisers spend 15 minutes with unemployed people trying to work out whether they would be better off working than not working. It was not clear all the time whether someone would be better off in work, which is why it is right to introduce universal credit. We cannot have a welfare system that sends inconsistent and unclear messages to our constituents who want to work. Universal credit is vital, not just because it changes and modernises the IT the Department uses, but in order to change the culture, so that people know automatically that they are better off in work than out of work, and that they are better off working more and earning more rather than working less and earning less. That shows the mess we had to deal with when we came into office in May 2010.

The previous Labour Government, as with every Labour Government, had left office with unemployment at a higher level than when they came into office. That is another part of the legacy we have had to deal with. What should we say about youth unemployment? It had gone up by 50% under the previous Government and, worse still, it had increased when the economy was growing quickly. That is not my observation; it is the observation of David Miliband, the former Member for South Shields. That is the situation we inherited, and what we have done in the past four years is reform the welfare system to ensure that it encourages people to work, that it is stable in terms of the fiscal position and that it is fair.

How is it fair for someone who is in work and working hard to take home less every month than someone who is on benefits? That shows why it was absolutely right to introduce the benefit cap. Not only did we do that to control the cost of benefits, but as a result of hard work by the staff of Jobcentre Plus and local authorities, 6,000 people who would have been affected by the benefit cap have now gone into employment. We should recognise that, and we should be applauding people for doing that and tackling the culture of dependency we inherited when we came into office in May 2010.

The other thing we have done that the Labour party will not like is ended the spare room subsidy in social rented accommodation, thus saving the taxpayer money and promoting exactly the same principle which Labour implemented when it was in government but has carefully forgotten about; the Labour Government did not have the spare room subsidy for private rented accommodation but they did have it for the social sector. Labour Members will not accept that what we did was provide consistency and fairness, and help tackle the housing benefit bill which rose so catastrophically quickly while Labour was in office.

[Heather Wheeler]

I have mentioned this once or twice before in the Chamber, but when I was the leader of South Derbyshire district council, winning in 2007 for the first time for the Conservatives, we had to implement the Labour policy in 2008 on the spare room subsidy for the private sector. So what is fair? People only want fairness, and I am sure my hon. Friend would agree with me on that.

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right and what she says again highlights the amnesia of Labour Members. They have forgotten what they did in government and they are pretending that any changes happened after we came into office in May 2010.

One thing that had struck me was just how technology had bypassed the jobcentre; the previous Government had let Jobcentre Plus become out of date and inefficient. The launch of Universal Jobmatch was a huge achievement—modern technology was being used to help match the right people with the right vacancies—but do we hear any praise for its roll-out from Labour Members? No, they are not interested in the good news. They are not interested in the fact that the Youth Contract has helped get young people into work by offering work experience places with the private sector, as opposed to the expensive schemes produced by the previous Government. We see hints of those schemes return again in the future jobs fund, which is one of the few ideas that Labour talks about in opposition.

We need to ensure that we get value for money and that we get people to work in the private sector. It is the private sector in this country that is creating jobs. We have seen a tremendous improvement in private sector job creation over the past four years. Some 2 million jobs have been created by the private sector, which is five times the amount of jobs lost in the public sector. That is a tribute to the businesses in this country, which have responded to our long-term economic plan and created the opportunities. It says something else as well: if we create clear incentives for people and make them understand that work pays, we will see more people coming forward to take up the jobs. That is why the employment rate is currently just shy of its all-time record. We are seeing jobs being created in this country, and three quarters of them are permanent jobs. We never hear about that from the Labour party. All it wants to do is talk down the jobs that its constituents get and the jobs created by businesses. That is damaging this economy and the confidence of communities up and down the country.

If Labour wants to demonstrate that it is fit for office, it needs to stop talking down the economy and start talking up the achievements of companies up and down this country. If it does not do that, the message that people will get is that Labour has learned nothing from its time in government; nothing about how to tackle the dependency culture; nothing about the complex benefits systems it left behind; and nothing about how to be on the side of those who work, those who want to play by the rules and those who want to see everyone else treated in the same fair fashion. That is what we have sought to do.

Welfare reform is a key part of our economic legacy. It has helped to provide the supply of workers that we need, and it has given hope to people. We know that people in work are far less likely to be in poverty than those who are out of work. That is why welfare is a key part of this Government’s reforms. If we get welfare right, the economy right and ensure that people have education and skills, we will continue to see the job creation that this country deserves.

Pensions Strategy

Mark Hoban Excerpts

Thursday 20th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Steve Webb]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his wholehearted endorsement of our plans. The guidance guarantee is as it says on the tin: it is guaranteed. It is a right of members of the scheme. It is a duty on schemes to make sure, for the first time, that people coming up to retirement have a conversation with someone who is independent and who is on their side, and the schemes will have to make that happen. The Financial Conduct Authority will oversee that process. We will look into whether we can involve the voluntary sector and the advice sector in that.

We often hear the phrase “advice gap”. The hon. Gentleman suggests that we started from a blank sheet of paper, but we did not. We started from a situation where many people coming to retirement were making the wrong decisions and buying poor value products. This is the sort of thing that we have had to address.

The hon. Gentleman asks whether the Budget was really one for savers. To me the increase in ISA limits sounds like good news for savers. The new pensioners bond coming in next year sounds like good news for savers. New freedoms for pensioners with regard to how they can use their pensions sounds like good news for savers. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman wanted still more, but I quote to him Dr Ros Altmann, who said that yesterday was like London buses—all the good news for savers came at once.

The hon. Gentleman asked the question I thought he might ask. If I paraphrase it loosely, his question, as a former academic, was on “the consistency of the defined ambition framework with liberalised decumulation”. I think that is what he wanted to know about. It is perfectly reasonable for people to have collective provision in accumulation. People can build up pensions collectively and many people will go on buying annuities. Many people will still want an income, but we are giving them new options. Plenty of people will want a scheme in which to go on investing their money into retirement. That will be their choice. Our whole agenda is about new models and new options, not just going from one extreme to another.

The hon. Gentleman asked about action on charges. I assume that he had written his questions before he read my statement. Given that we gave him the statement well before the speech, I am surprised at that. I confirm that next week we will announce the conclusions and the action we are taking—action to tackle problems that were never tackled in 13 years of a Labour Government.

The hon. Gentleman says that guidance is Labour’s policy. I am delighted to hear that, but why was there none in place when his party was running the country? It is good of him to support the plans.

This is bold and radical stuff. People will have guidance for the first time and new flexibilities. Some Labour MPs are saying that this should be blocked because we cannot trust people to spend their own money. I think we should.

[Mr Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con)]

I welcome the reforms announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor yesterday and the further detail my hon. Friend the Minister has given today. I urge him not to overlook the Pensions Advisory Service and the Money Advice Service as potential sources of advice for people approaching retirement. How will he take forward discussions with the industry and the regulator to ensure the availability of good quality products for new pensioners that not only represent good value for money but are properly regulated?

[Steve Webb]

My hon. Friend has great knowledge of these matters from his time at both the Treasury and the Department for Work and Pensions. He is absolutely right to say that we need to make sure that people have guidance that enables them to make informed choices. They will still be able to proceed to formally regulated independent financial advice, but the industry will have to up its game, because now people will have much more choice to take cash, and if they want to take an annuity they will have to be persuaded that it is good value for money. That will be a market impetus to provide better quality products. We have asked the FCA to make sure that a good guidance regime is in place, potentially involving groups such as the excellent Pensions Advisory Service, to which my hon. Friend referred.

Work Capability Assessments

Mark Hoban Excerpts

Friday 6th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mr Mark Hoban)]

I thank the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) for raising the issue of the reconsideration of work capability assessments and for letting me see a copy of her speech in advance, which I hope will enable me to answer the points that she has raised. She may not be satisfied, and doubtless she will come back again if that is the case.

The hon. Lady is interested in how the new mandatory reconsideration process will affect ESA claimants who are found fit for work. In this regard, I intend to address her main concerns on the length of time a mandatory reconsideration will take and the availability of JSA to those people who are found fit for work. Before I consider those concerns, it is important to give the issue some context and explain why we have introduced mandatory reconsideration.

To put the matter at its simplest, the current disputes process does not work for benefits in general or ESA in particular. The introduction of the ESA in 2008, and particularly the conversion of incapacity benefit awards to ESA, has—as the House will know—resulted in a high volume of appeals, with more than 500,000 last year.

The Government have taken a series of steps to improve the WCA process but we accept that people will appeal. The Government do not believe that it is acceptable to write people off to a lifetime on benefits because they have a health condition or impairment. Many people with health conditions are able to sustain and progress in employment. Evidence points to the negative impacts of being without work and suggests that work is generally good for people regardless of whether they are disabled or not.

The Department therefore needs to ensure that people currently receiving incapacity benefit and ESA are supported in preparing for a return to work where some form of employment is a possibility. Claimants are being reassessed using the WCA. This is based on the principle that a health condition or impairment should not automatically be regarded as a barrier to work. It has been designed to be a more accurate reflection of an individual’s capability for work, taking account of modern workplaces, health care and legislation.

The volumes of appeals are placing some strain on the appeals system. We also recognise that the process can put pressure on claimants too. That is why a claimant can ask for a decision to be reconsidered. It was intended that people would ask for this reconsideration in the first instance if they felt their decision was wrong. In practice, however, many people do not do so and instead make an appeal from the outset. This is more costly for the taxpayer; more time consuming and more stressful for claimants and their families; and, for a significant number of appellants, unnecessary. I say unnecessary because a significant number of decisions are overturned on appeal because of new evidence presented at the tribunal—more than 55% in recent months. This is mainly oral evidence, which accounts for 70%, but also includes written evidence that has not been considered by the decision maker.

I hope that hon. Members will agree that we need a process that enables this evidence to be seen or heard by the decision maker at the earliest opportunity. Mandatory reconsideration does just that. Another decision maker will review the original decision, requesting extra information or evidence as required via a telephone discussion. If this means a decision can be revised, there is no reason for an appeal—an outcome that is better for the individual, the Department and the Tribunals Service. We hope that, because of the robust nature of the reconsideration and the improved communication, the process will result in either decisions being changed or claimants making an informed decision not to escalate their dispute to an appeal tribunal.

[Sheila Gilmore]

The Minister’s argument about the appeals process often relates to whether evidence is available in the first place. However, a number of my constituents and those of a lot of my colleagues say that such information is not requested in the first instance, at the time of the WCA, more and more of which are done through paper-based applications, as I am sure he is aware. If people were asked for that information, it would not have to be looked at later.

[Mr Hoban]

The hon. Lady has looked into this matter in detail, and I am sure she will recollect my comments about where we seek further medical information from health care professionals, as nominated by the appellants themselves. The problem is straightforward. Too often, either the information is not supplied by the health care professionals from whom we have sought additional medical evidence or it is supplied too late to be taken into account. Where we seek medical evidence, there is a broader responsibility on those from whom we seek it to respond in a timely manner. That, too, would help the process.

Let me turn to the concerns raised by the hon. Lady. The first was the time it will take for a reconsideration. Although we are not introducing a statutory time limit for decision makers, I assure the House that we will have a process geared to timely decision making. Anything less would be frankly unacceptable. We owe it to claimants not to delay their right to exercise their right of appeal. However, the time taken will depend on whether the claimant intends to provide new evidence—obtaining it could take some time, as I said in connection with the first request for further medical evidence—and whether the decision maker needs to seek further advice on that evidence from Atos. If there is nothing new for the decision maker to consider, he or she can get on and make that decision.

However, the key is quality, not speed. There would be no benefit to anyone in rushing the process, effectively forcing an appeal and then having it allowed at a hearing some time later. The new process is aimed at getting decisions right, not simply passing disputes to the tribunal to resolve. Equally, however, it is in no one’s interest for this to be an open-ended procedure. We will monitor the introduction of the change for the first six months. In April 2014, we will look at the times taken and consider whether we have enough information to introduce realistic internal targets.

During the mandatory reconsideration phase, when someone is fit for work and not in work, they will be entitled to jobseeker’s allowance. I accept that someone seeking a reconsideration is likely to protest to the jobcentre that they are not fit for work. However, that does not rule out entitlement to jobseeker’s allowance. That is the case even where the claimant presents a fit note. Disability employment advisers, trained by specialist staff from the Department, will work with those who identify themselves as having a health condition or disability. They will take into account individual circumstances, including any advice given by the claimant’s doctor, and will consider placing limitations on a client’s availability or modifying their conditionality. There is nothing new about this.

The hon. Lady also expressed concerns about claimants being sanctioned while on JSA. Let me address that point. To reiterate, the modified conditionality militates against a sanction being imposed. If the adviser has agreed to modify conditionality, it would be perverse if they then took a heavy-handed approach. As I have previously informed the House—let me take the opportunity to repeat this—there are no sanction targets. It was this Government who removed the sanction targets—they were in place under the previous Government. We continue to monitor to ensure that sanctions are applied consistently and only where appropriate. The hon. Lady asked what would happen if a claimant were subject to a sanction. She will know—I think she might have served on the Delegated Legislation Committee that dealt with this—that a claimant can still apply for hardship payments.

A health condition or impairment should not automatically be regarded as a barrier to work; in fact, there are many people who juggle work and a health condition. Such claimants might be disputing their decision, but at that time they have been through an assessment process and are, in the eyes of the law, fit for work. The appropriate benefit is jobseeker’s allowance, and it is appropriate that we apply conditionality that is tailored to claimants’ needs so that we can move them closer to the labour market and, we hope, back to work.

It has been suggested that we should pay employment and support allowance during that period because of the standard of decision making on ESA, as evidenced by the number of decisions overturned on appeal. Let me just remind the hon. Lady of the statistics that demonstrate the quality of the decisions made. Between October 2008 and February 2012, around 800,000—about 15%—of those decisions that found the claimant fit for work were overturned on appeal. She will know, having looked into this, that a significant proportion of decisions are overturned at tribunal because of oral or written evidence being presented at the tribunal that has not been discussed with or seen by the decision maker. It is that new evidence that is the reason for the overturning of a decision. As I stated earlier, we hope that mandatory reconsideration will allow that new evidence to be discussed at an earlier stage, leading to a decision being revised if necessary. We need to try to accelerate the process so that we can get the decision right first time and as soon as possible.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Given that the Minister has conceded that there were substantial failings in the initial WCA process, and that steps have been taken to retrain staff, to bring in outside staff to give further advice and to bring in other providers, surely this is not simply a problem of new evidence being presented to the tribunal. Is there not a flaw in the system?

[Mr Hoban]

No, I do not agree with that. If the hon. Lady goes back to the statement that my noble Friend Lord Freud made in the other place in July, she will see that that is not the case. There was an issue with the quality of the recording of the assessments, but not necessarily with the quality of the assessments themselves. That is a very different matter.

We are not complacent. That is demonstrated by the tough way in which we have responded to Atos’s failings. There is always room for improvement, and much is happening. The hon. Lady will be familiar with the recommendations made by Professor Harrington in his three reports. They included proposals for improving the ESA forms to encourage claimants to provide their own evidence, for better contact between decision makers and claimants at the decision-making stage, and for enhanced training and guidance for decision makers. There was also a proposal for a simpler and more empathetic process to be adopted for the assessment of cancer sufferers, with more claimants being placed in the support group, the better to reflect their difficult circumstances. We are also learning from the tribunal decisions made as part of our summary reasons pilot. I am confident that accuracy will continue to improve and that the proportion of decisions overturned will continue to be reduced.

[Sheila Gilmore]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Hoban]

I was about to conclude my speech, but I will give way once more as I am a generous man.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I understand the Minister’s concern about information and about ensuring that the process is carried out timeously. One suggestion that has emerged from the discussions is that the time for submitting the ESA50 could be extended from four to six weeks, which would give people more chance to get the necessary information together.

[Mr Hoban]

I thought that the hon. Lady’s motivation was to accelerate the process, to ensure that the right decisions were made as quickly as possible. Now she seems to be advocating delay by adding an extra two weeks to the process. I am not sure that that would be in the interests of claimants, as they would face a longer assessment phase that would take them further away from the market if they were fit for work. I question whether it is the right approach to lengthen the process rather than to improve it by making it shorter and more effective, where possible. As I was saying, getting the decision right first time has always been our priority.

In conclusion, the aim of the modifications that we have introduced is to get the decision right first time, but if claimants believe that we have not done that in their case, we need a step to put things right before we end up at a tribunal. Mandatory reconsideration will offer claimants that opportunity. It seeks to address two concerns: the length of the appeals process and the fact that new evidence can be brought forward which has an impact on a decision. It is in the best interests of claimants to introduce that new step. Mandatory reconsideration will help to ensure that the right decision is reached as quickly as possible.

The Government are committed to supporting those who are unable to work owing to health conditions or disability, but we believe that those who are able to work should receive help into employment to enable them to realise their aspiration to independence and to support themselves and their families. We also believe that those who are unable to work should receive the support to which they are entitled, and it will be in the best interests of everyone involved in the process if we can reach decisions in those cases more quickly, without compromising their quality.

Question put and agreed to.

Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council

Mark Hoban Excerpts

Wednesday 17th July 2013 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mr Mark Hoban)]

The informal Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council met on 11 and 12 July in Vilnius. I represented the United Kingdom.

On the first day, there were three simultaneous workshops covering: efficiency and effectiveness of the social investments; implementation of the European alliance for apprenticeships; and wage-setting mechanisms and economic growth. The UK attended the first workshop on social investments and stated that effective spending was about how money was spent rather than the amount and that member states can benefit hugely from sharing experiences. The UK urged caution about using relative poverty to measure the situation and referred to the consultation the Government are running to look at alternative measures of poverty. The UK found the Commission’s multi-dimensional model and focus on the root causes of poverty helpful.

On the second day, the discussion focused on the social dimension of the economic and monetary union (EMU). Setting out its vision for a social dimension of the EMU, the Commission outlined its proposals for action under the three pillars: better monitoring of social policies, better co-ordination of social policies, and better involvement of social partners. The United Kingdom highlighted that spill-over was not so relevant to member states outside of the eurozone. The UK stressed the importance of respecting subsidiarity and proportionality, and that primary competence in this area lay with member states and the Commission.

Capping Welfare Spending

Mark Hoban Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mr Mark Hoban)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) on securing the debate. It has clearly created a great deal of interest among Conservative colleagues and it is a pity, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) said, that no Opposition Members are here, because they have a lot of questions to answer when it comes to welfare reform, the benefit cap and the welfare cap. I shall now deal with those three areas.

It is absolutely right that we reform the welfare state and ensure that we have a fair and affordable system that provides incentives for work. Both my hon. Friends referred in their speeches to the benefit cap, which is a good example of our ensuring that there is fairness in the benefit system. It is absurd to have people on benefits taking home more than the average wage, and it is absolutely right that we tackle that through the work we are doing. Earlier this year, we rolled out the benefit cap in four areas across London, and this month we are moving to a wider national roll-out. The example cited by my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock is a powerful testament to the transformational effect that the cap can have on people’s lives.

I visited the London Bridge jobcentre in the run-up to the roll-out of the London pilots, and I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell) is aware of the work being carried out in his borough in the pilot stage. What struck me during that visit was the amount of support that was going in to help people, either to move accommodation or to find work as a way of avoiding the impact of the benefit cap. The link between fairness and incentivising work is embedded in the benefit cap, because if someone gets 16 hours’ work a week the cap does not apply to them, so there is a real incentive there for someone who has perhaps been out of work for some time and has depended on benefits to move into employment.

I pay tribute to Jobcentre Plus advisers who have worked with people to get them closer to the labour market to tackle the problem, and to the co-operation between Jobcentre Plus and local authorities in relation to the implementation of the benefit cap.

My hon. Friend the Member for Dover made a powerful point about the relationship between landlords and their tenants. There are many good examples of housing associations and local councils that work holistically with their tenants. They are concerned not only about whether they get the rent on time, but about their tenants’ health and employment prospects, as well as a range of issues, such as antisocial behaviour. The benefit cap and the roll-out of universal credit will drive that further forward. The move away from direct payment in universal credit requires landlords to take a much greater supportive interest in their tenants—to get them into work so that they can pay their rent. Our reforms are therefore working.

[Julian Smith]

May I tempt the Minister to comment on the idea of a regional benefit cap?

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend may tempt me, although I do not want to be distracted from moving on to the welfare cap. Particularly given regional wage rates, what is set at a fair level in London appears to be higher in other parts of other country, but that is a debate for another day.

Since coming into office, we have sought to put the public finances on a more stable footing across the board. It is notable that this Government, unlike previous ones, have sought to find savings in the benefit bill. We must ensure that we do not repeat past mistakes—for example, the fact that the amount of money spent on tax credits and on housing benefit almost doubled under the previous Government. We need to have a system that is affordable in the long term and enables us to manage the welfare bill in a way that is sensible, reflects economic conditions and provides much greater discipline about how we spend our money.

That is why my right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced a welfare cap in his spending review. The cap covers more than £100 billion of welfare expenditure that has not been managed until now: because it is classified as annually managed expenditure, it was considered to be largely outside Government control, but that is not sustainable and it is not right. We are in a global race in which we must ensure that our tax rates are competitive and that we can control our benefit spending.

The Government can and should take action to control expenditure. The introduction of a cap will improve spending control, support fiscal consolidation and ensure that the welfare system remains affordable. Housing benefit, tax credits, disability benefits and pensioner benefits will all be included, but some benefits will be excluded, including the basic state pension and the additional state pension.

There are better ways to control expenditure on pensions, such as increasing the state pension age, and we have already announced plans to bring forward a state pension age of 67 by 2028. We are committed to introducing a regular and structured method for considering future changes in the state pension age, with the first five-year review taking place in the next Parliament.

We have received representations, such as those from the shadow Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls), about including the state pension in the Opposition’s version of the welfare cap, meaning that a future Government could offset a rise in working-age benefits by cutting the pensions of older people. I understand that some in the Labour party oppose the increase in the state pension age, but that would mean a reduction in state pensions under its version of the cap. I thought that the shadow Chancellor’s intervention showed that he had not properly thought that through and indicated that the Opposition’s target is really to cut the pensions of older people who have contributed to society and worked hard all their lives. Cutting pensions to pay for working-age benefits or to reduce the state retirement age are choices that this Government are certainly not prepared to make.

We will exclude also expenditure on automatic stabilisers, which are those areas of welfare expenditure that rise and fall with the economic cycle and dampen the effects of fluctuations in the country’s economic output. That will mean excluding from the cap a small number of the most cyclical benefits, such as jobseeker’s allowance and spending that is passported from jobseeker’s allowance.

My hon. Friends asked for more details about the cap. A nominal cap will be set from 2015-16 that will support the delivery of fiscal consolidation during the spending round period and beyond. It will be set over a five-year forecast period, starting in the second fiscal year from the date of the forecast, to allow policy changes to be developed and to take effect, if necessary. As the cap’s purpose is to manage structural increases in welfare spending, a margin above the cap will ensure that policy action is not triggered by small fluctuations in the forecast.

The Government will set the cap for 2015 in the Budget, alongside the Office for Budget Responsibility’s fiscal forecast, and we will publish further technical details in advance. To ensure that there is real challenge, the independent OBR will judge the Government’s performance against the cap. In future, when a Government look likely to breach the cap because they are failing to control welfare spending, the OBR will issue a public warning and the Government will be forced to take action to cut welfare costs or publicly to explain why they are breaching the cap.

The measures announced by my right hon. Friend in the spending review make a major contribution towards the control of long-term welfare spending, and they rightly recognise the contribution that older people have made to their pensions through saving. The Labour party did not recognise that contribution in its alternative proposals. To go back to my hon. Friends’ comments, we need to take difficult decisions on welfare and on how we spend taxpayers’ money, and we need to make sure that we have a system that is fair and affordable, so there is a real challenge.

People who criticise the reforms, as Labour Members do, need to tell us what they would do: would they reverse the cuts or accept them? Too often, we have heard mealy-mouthed statements from Labour Members, who say that they are against the cuts, but cannot say whether they will reverse them or stick to them. We know that our reforms are the right ones.

My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central made a helpful statement, in that the system too often stops people from working, as does the uncertainty that comes from people not knowing whether they are better off in or out of work and whether or not they earn more money. The major reforms that we are introducing—universal credit, the benefit cap and considering how to get more people out of welfare into work—are aimed at ensuring that our welfare state is fair, affordable and incentivises work. Today’s debate is an important contribution to making that argument. My hon. Friends’ interventions have made clear the scale of the change we are making.

I hope that this is not the last time that we debate this subject, and that next time someone from the Opposition might stand up and tell us what they believe in and are going to do, so that they can be pushed on that. I will not tempt any hon. Members to take part in the debate, but one, the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock), has just entered the Chamber—not quite the 8th Cavalry come to rescue the situation. We should now hold the Opposition to account by finding out what they would do to tackle the long-term challenges to our spending and to ensure that we have a fair and affordable welfare system that encourages and incentivises people into work.

Disabled People

Mark Hoban Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Byrne]

That evidence is now becoming well known, and we have had more evidence circulated by great organisations, such as Carers UK today, about the impact this tax is now having on some of the most vulnerable people in our community, including hundreds in the Minister’s constituency.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mr Mark Hoban)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Byrne]

In a moment. Perhaps when the Minister intervenes he can justify what Carers UK found:

“Three quarters (75%) of carers having to pay the ‘bedroom tax’ are being forced to cut back on essential spending on food, electricity and heating.”

Will the Minister justify that to the House?

[Mr Hoban]

The Leader of the Opposition has accepted the changes we have made through the spare room subsidy. Is the right hon. Gentleman going against that? Is he going to reverse this policy?

[Mr Byrne]

It ill behoves the Minister to play word games this afternoon on a policy that is affecting hundreds of people and their carers in his own constituency. What is he saying to carers in his constituency who are having to cut back on food, electricity and heating?

[Mr Byrne]

In a moment. What is the Minister going to say to councils up and down the country surveyed by Channel 4 for tonight’s broadcast showing that one third of councils are having to deny help to disabled people because the provision of the discretionary housing payment fund is, frankly, insufficient? What is he going to say to those councils and what is he going to say to those disabled people in his own constituency?

[Mr Hoban]

I am going to be very straight with my constituents about the challenges we face. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will now answer the question I asked him.

[Mr Byrne]

We believe this policy should be dropped and it should be dropped now. Why? Because this is an iniquitous, unjust policy that is going to cost more than it saves.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mr Mark Hoban)]

I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “House” to the end of the Question and add:

“welcomes the Government’s leadership in furthering the rights of disabled people; recognises the UK as a world leader in disability rights; notes that approximately £50 billion a year is spent on services for disabled people, including adult social services and including an investment of £3.8 billion in health and social care services in England to deliver more joined-up services to disabled people; further notes the £350 million allocated by the Government for programmes and support for disabled people to move into and stay in work; and acknowledges the Government’s collective determination to build upon the London 2012 Paralympic Games, and create a legacy which shines a light on the abilities and achievements of disabled people.”.

I thank the Opposition for choosing this subject to discuss today, not least because it gives me an opportunity to remind the House of this Government’s actions to support disabled people and improve people’s lives. We are absolutely committed to supporting disabled people and enabling those who face the greatest barriers to play a full role in society.

The UK is a world leader in rights for disabled people and spends more on disability than Germany, France, Italy, Spain and Japan. We are proud of that history and the Government are spending about £50 billion a year on disabled people and the services that support them, but spending money is not enough. We need to spend that money wisely, and I will set out the reforms we are undertaking to ensure that that happens.

Some of the biggest barriers for disabled people are caused not by money but by prejudice and we have done far more to tackle the prejudices that continue, moving forward society’s understanding and knowledge of disability and disabled people. Our ambition is to enable disabled people to achieve their aspirations and play a full role in society. Our approach has been developed with disabled people and the organisations that represent them because it is important to help with what happens in their lives. The strategy we have developed is set out in the document “Fulfilling Potential—Making it Happen”. It sets out nearly 200 actions across government to ensure that disabled people can realise their aspirations.

I am pleased to say that under this Government disabled people are seeing improved outcomes and reduced inequalities compared with non-disabled people since 2009-10. Figures published last week show improvements for disabled people in educational achievements, the employment rate and the proportion in relative poverty. They also show how inequalities compared with non-disabled people have reduced for GCSE results, for the employment rate, for income poverty for families in which someone is disabled, and in choice and control.

[Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)]

I note that the hon. Gentleman expresses sympathy and states that the Government have done a lot for disabled people. We have received a great deal of information from various charities saying that the cumulative impact of all the cuts will affect disabled people more than able-bodied people. The purpose of today’s motion is to ask the Government to carry out an independent evaluation of the fact that the changes will affect disabled people more. What is wrong with the Government carrying out that assessment?

[Mr Hoban]

As I shall discuss later, the previous Government did not do it—

[Yasmin Qureshi]

rose—

[Mr Hoban]

The hon. Lady’s intervention was long enough, so I ask her to let me finish making my point. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) called on the Treasury to implement this measure; he, of course, was a Treasury Minister in the dying days of the previous Government. Did they do anything about this? No, they did not. It is a bit rich for Labour, having been in government for 13 years, to come forward at this point to call for a cumulative impact assessment. They never did it when they were in government, and they know that they could not do it now either.

Over the past three years, we have maintained financial support for disabled people despite the fiscal pressures, we have refined benefits to support disabled people and help them into work, we are reforming the care system so it better meets the needs of disabled people and the elderly, and we are using the magnificent success of the Paralympics to transform lives.

Our record on spending on disabled people compares well internationally. We continue to spend almost double the OECD average as a percentage of GDP—2.4% compared with about 1.3%. Of the 34 OECD countries, only Norway and Iceland spend more. In the last spending review, published last month, we demonstrated that even in hard economic times when so many budgets have been subject to significant cuts, the Government continue to make the needs of disabled people a priority and to protect funding for disabled people.

As we know that delivering better, joined-up services for the disabled and the elderly shortens hospital stays or, even better, keeps people out of hospital and in their own homes, we are creating a £3.8 billion single budget for health and social care services in England so that people can work together more closely in local areas, based on a plan agreed between the NHS and local authorities. That shared pot includes an additional £2 billion from the NHS and builds on the existing contribution of about £1 billion in 2014-15. To enable the programme to start, we are investing an extra £200 million in 2014-15 to get this work under way. I believe that that working together will benefit both the disabled and the elderly.

[Barbara Keeley]

Does the Minister not see that the problem is that £2.8 billion has already gone out of social care? The hundreds of millions of pounds of funding that has been moved across is being used as a sticking plaster to prop up existing care packages, and nine out of 10 local authorities are now only meeting substantial care needs. The situation with social care is deteriorating by the week and it is causing issues in the NHS, such as the recent A and E crisis.

[Mr Hoban]

But reform is needed, too, to make sure that we spend money carefully. We need to think about how we deliver services. That is why joining up care and health in a single budget is vital if we are to tackle problems on the ground, enable local authorities and the health service to work together, and really make progress.

[Mr Byrne]

The Minister is being characteristically generous in giving way. If he believes what he has just said, will he explain why the duty to co-operate in the Care Bill does not extend to the Department for Work and Pensions? Will he table Government amendments to the Bill to ensure that those duties to co-operate bite on local authorities, the NHS and his Department?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hoban]

We already co-operate in those areas. We work closely with local authorities and the Department of Health. We do not need a duty of care to enable us to take that approach; we can do that very well at the moment.

We all know that the cost of care is a huge concern for the elderly and for disabled people, and that is why the spending round provides £335 million to local authorities in 2015-16 to prepare for the delivery of the capped costs system from April 2016 and a universal offer of deferred payment agreements from April 2015. That investment begins a programme of reforms to social care funding in England which will mean that no one faces unlimited care costs or is forced to sell their home in their lifetime to pay for residential care.

We want disabled children to have the best possible start in life. The pupil premium is increasing in real terms. That will disproportionately benefit disabled children and young people, and the Government will continue to reform services for those with special educational needs.

It is hard for people to feel included in society if they are excluded from getting around. Railway funding makes provision for the industry to invest up to £100 million from 2014 to 2019 in measures to provide easier access for older and disabled passengers and those with small children. That list of the priorities announced in the spending review demonstrates that any cumulative impact assessment is about not just one area of Government policy, because there is a whole range of ways in which we are taking measures to help disabled people to improve their lives.

[Mr Jim Cunningham]

Coming back to the £3 billion extra that the Minister mentioned, how will that be distributed, bearing in mind that Coventry city council has to make £28 million in cuts over the next four years? How will he distribute the money to deliver care?

[Mr Hoban]

The hon. Gentleman knows very well that funding formulas are in place to ensure that the money is allocated. There is an obligation on local authorities not only to make a contribution towards tackling the deficit that we inherited from the previous Government, but to look innovatively at how they deliver services and ensure that we get value for money.

[Kate Green]

I point out that the previous Government did not conduct a cumulative impact assessment because we were not making so many sweeping changes all at once. However, I want to ask the Minister about his comments on disabled children. Does he accept that the welcome exemption that the Government introduced to allow adults with disabilities an extra room under the bedroom tax for an overnight carer does not apply to children? If he accepts that it does not, will he explain why it does not?

[Mr Hoban]

The previous Government were asked to supply cumulative impact assessments. [Interruption.] Well, that was the point that the hon. Lady wanted to make. However, that Government recognised that those assessments were too complex and difficult to carry out. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill is smiling; he was Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and he has to recognise that the previous Government failed to do that.

[Mr Byrne]

I think that the Minister would sort of accept that we were not introducing some of the biggest cuts to disabled people’s services or benefits for a generation, so the premium on a cumulative impact assessment was not quite as great then as it is now. He said to the House on 5 July that cumulative impact assessments were “a coalition initiative”, and I assume that they are an initiative of which he is proud. If he is so proud of them, why does he not equip himself with one before the Secretary of State goes to see the Chancellor, as he no doubt will, so that he can argue on behalf of disabled people before the autumn statement?

[Mr Hoban]

I do not want to spoil the excitement that is felt about the later parts of my speech—you are right to pull a wry face, Mr Speaker—but the challenge when one is trying to carry out a cumulative impact assessment that covers a wide range of policy areas for a defined group, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, as he was in the Treasury and in government, is that resources and information are not there to enable people to do it. That is the problem that the last Government faced, and we face the same challenge. Unlike that Government, we have produced a cumulative impact assessment at major fiscal events, but that cannot be disaggregated to the sort of level that the right hon. Gentleman is referring to. He knows that, because he has been through that process.

[Mr Byrne]

The Minister is very generous to give way once again. Will he tell the House which part of the Demos “Destination Unknown” cumulative impact assessment he disagreed with?

[Mr Hoban]

Bodies such as the Institute for Fiscal Studies have said that giving that level of detail is impossible and have stepped away from doing so. I know that the right hon. Gentleman has got into trouble on spending plans; he tried to dig himself out of a hole earlier and did not manage to do it, and there is a bit of chaff for him, but let us be very clear: this was a challenge when he was in government, and it remains a challenge.

Let me move on to employment. We all know that work brings self-esteem and dignity. It enables people, whether disabled or able-bodied, to look after themselves and their families. Nearly half of disabled people are in work. Only one in 10 working-age disabled people have never worked, and for those aged over 25 it is only one in 20. If we want to make a sustainable difference, we must do all that we can to help more disabled people who can work to get into mainstream employment and stay there. The spending review allocated £330 million to programmes and support for disabled people or those with a long-term health condition, so that they can move into and stay in work.

[Robert Flello]

I thank the Minister for giving way; he is being generous in taking interventions. Over the summer, will he get his Department to publish, as an example, the number of people who used to work in the Remploy factory in Stoke-on-Trent who have gone into work in the wider environment, and the number who are now unemployed and likely to be unemployed for the rest of their working life? That facility, to use the Minister’s exact words, provided work experience—not some segregated nonsense, but work experience that people enjoyed. I spoke to the people there time and again, and they really enjoyed working there. Will he publish those figures over the summer?

[Mr Hoban]

I shall give the hon. Gentleman some homework for the summer recess. If he goes back to Thursday’s Hansard and the statement that the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), made about stage 2 for Remploy factories, he will see that it sets out in detail the work that we have done to get people back into employment, and it gives the aggregate figures. The success in getting people into work after the closure of Remploy factories has outpaced what normally happens with redundancies. What we have seen demonstrates the important support given to get people into work.

This Government remain convinced of the need to maximise the opportunities available to disabled people to enable them to realise their employment aspirations. The principal objectives of our disability employment strategy are to increase the employment rate for disabled people, and to maximise the opportunity for disabled people to realise their employment aspirations and thus achieve greater economic independence. We will publish our strategy later this year. We need to make sure that money is targeted more effectively, to ensure that support continues to be available to those who need it most, that there is a lasting impact and that interventions provide a fair deal for the taxpayer.

[Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)]

My hon. Friend talks about priorities. Will he assure the House that the Government’s priority is to give help to disabled people who are British citizens over those who are not British citizens?

[Mr Hoban]

What we need to do is make sure that we get more people into work, regardless of their disability, and we must help them into employment. We are particularly supporting those who were Remploy employees to get into work, as well as broader groups. That is our focus; that is exactly what the Government are trying to do. That is why we accepted the recommendation from disability expert Liz Sayce that we should focus support on individuals through services such as Access to Work, rather than through institutions such as Remploy, so that more disabled people can work in mainstream employment.

Next week we will see the first ever disability employment conference, a flagship event funded by Government and business. This will involve more than 600 people in London and five regional locations via video link, with many more watching online. The conference is a unique opportunity for businesses and Government to come together to identify the challenges that others are facing and provide innovative solutions to tap into this underemployed pool of talent and reap the benefits that this can bring. But next week’s conference is just the beginning. Over the next two years we will continue to work with business to bring about a new disability-confident perspective on employment and improve the employment outcomes for disabled people.

I have no doubt that people want to work, but some are held back by a complex and unwieldy benefit system with weak or even non-existent incentives to work. Our plans for welfare reform will transform the benefits landscape. We have designed a new system with work as its focus—a coherent approach which ensures that people will be better off in work than on benefits. I firmly believe that the vast majority of people want to work and gain greater independence, but we also know that many disabled people who want to work fear the risk of losing their benefits and feel that that is too great a risk of getting into work. By simplifying the benefits system and making sure that work pays, universal credit will remove the financial risks of taking the first steps back into employment, and increase the incentives for working, even for a few hours a week.

Let me deal with some of the points that the right hon. Gentleman made. Universal credit will provide unconditional support to those disabled people who are not expected to do any work. There will be no cash losers in the roll-out of universal credit. People will see their level of benefit protected when they switch over if their circumstances remain the same. Indeed, the average change in income for disabled people under universal credit is an increase of £8 a month.

Universal credit will provide support for carers and improve their opportunities to maintain links with the world of work. Many families will benefit from help with child care costs, especially people who work under 16 hours a week, who will get help for the first time. Households with one or more disabled adults will be able to keep up to £647 a month of their earnings before seeing a reduction in their universal credit. It will also offer a more flexible system for people whose ability to work fluctuates. Universal credit will encourage more disabled people to see work as financially viable, increasing their dignity and self-esteem.

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

What about new claimants? How does the Minister respond to evidence provided by Citizens Advice, which shows that 230,000 severely disabled people who live alone with a young carer could be worse off, 100,000 disabled children could lose up to £28 a week, and up to 116,000 disabled people who work would be at risk of losing around £40 a week?

[Mr Hoban]

As I said, the cash benefits for people on transition are protected. We hear the figures published by Citizens Advice but we do not understand where they come from. They are not borne out by our understanding. Let me move on to talk about disability living allowance.

[Mr Byrne]

rose—

[Mr Hoban]

I want to move on. I have been very generous in giving way to the right hon. Gentleman, as he acknowledged.

We all know that some disabled people face extra costs as a result of the impact of their disability. The main source of financial support, disability living allowance, has not been fundamentally reformed since 1992. Our welfare reforms presented an opportunity to start afresh, keeping the best elements of DLA that people value, but bringing the benefit up to date to make it fit for the 21st century. The personal independence payment—PIP—is easy to understand and administer. It is financially sustainable and more objective. It will be better targeted on those in most need. Throughout the whole development, we have consulted widely with disabled people and have used their views to inform policy design. We have continued to listen and consult, ensuring that these reforms continue to be shaped by the views of disabled people themselves. In other words, reform is not static and this Government are committed to listening and acting where change is required.

Instead of simply cutting money from everyone, we chose the more difficult but principled option of modernising the benefit and focusing support where it is most needed. PIP will be awarded on the basis of a fair, consistent and objective assessment which will enable us to target support on those who face the greatest barriers to independent living. More than one fifth of PIP recipients will get both of the highest rates, worth £134.40 each week, compared with only 16% on DLA. That demonstrates that we are focusing support on those in most need.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

Does the Minister accept the figure in the Demos and Scope study which indicates that 3,000 households could be affected by six individual welfare changes and lose as much as £4,500 a year? Does not that cumulative effect on living standards create the need for a cumulative assessment of what welfare reform is doing?

[Mr Hoban]

The hon. Gentleman illustrates in that question the impossibility of the task suggested in the motion. He has focused on one area. He has not taken into account tax changes, changes in fuel duty, the additional money that we are spending on improving access, the pupil premium or the changes that we are making to social care. To do an assessment properly—to look at that level of detail—as the motion suggests, involves looking across the whole of Government in a way that no Government have done before. It is the complexity of the issue that defeats specialist bodies trying to assess the full impact.

We did hear two bits of policy from the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill. He backtracked on the spare room subsidy but he also talked about care. We are constantly looking at ways of joining up and simplifying care. We have made fundamental reforms to improve systems and bring spending under control. The Care Bill goes much further than ever before in giving disabled people real control. We are taking practical and far-reaching steps—for example, extending personal budgets for health and care, introducing a new duty on local authorities to co-operate, and introducing education, health and care plans for our children and young people. We will bring forward proposals in the autumn to improve employment support for disabled people.

The right hon. Gentleman spoke about a new single personal budget, but as usual there is no detail. He said nothing about how it will be funded—a point proved by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard)—nothing about whether it will be means-tested, and nothing about whether local and national systems will be integrated. Will the right hon. Gentleman abolish PIP, for example? He told us nothing about how such an assessment would work, and nothing about the data-sharing issues that clearly arise. It is very clear that that is yet another kite flown by him with no information, no detail, no substance—again, three years in opposition completely wasted, with no fresh ideas.

We are clear that this Government always inform their decisions with equality analysis of policy changes, as required by the Equality Act 2010. All major welfare reform changes have been accompanied by a published equality impact assessment and these are updated if impacts change. I reiterate that a cumulative impact assessment would be so complex and subject to so many variables that it would be meaningless, helping neither individuals nor policy makers, and it would soon be incorrect and out of date. This may be something that the right hon. Gentleman wants to push, but it has not been done by any Government.

The Treasury does publish a broad-brush cumulative analysis of all tax, benefit and public service reforms at every fiscal event. This is a coalition initiative and something that the previous Government did not do. It is by its nature broad-brush, aimed at checking the broad distributional impacts of Government policy. It is not possible to do a meaningful breakdown for the disabled population. That is exactly why the previous Government did not do it. That is why I encourage my hon. Friends to vote against the motion. They know that it cannot be delivered. I urge them to support the amendment, which sets out what the coalition Government have done in office. We have acted to build a modern system of financial support for disabled people, acted to strengthen employment support and acted to provide better care for disabled people. We are delivering real reform for disabled people.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friends on the Opposition Front Bench on the motion and on rightly acknowledging the campaign outwith this place to bring the cumulative impact assessment to our attention.

I will begin with a non-partisan point: I believe that all of us in this House, whichever side we sit on, do our best to stand up for our constituents. Many of those who come to see us are the most disadvantaged, which is why it is right to point out that Members on both sides have been approached by constituents who are concerned about the impact of recent changes in Government policy—and not just the intended consequences, but sometimes the unintended consequences. That is why a cumulative impact assessment is so vital.

Many of the people who come to see me in my surgeries or whom I interact with in my constituency are disabled, have been injured at work or, through no fault of their own, find themselves unable to work, and what they want is to live as independently as possible, which requires a level of support. For some of them, the impact of certain changes in Government policy might be difficult but will not necessarily make an overall difference. The cumulative impact of those changes, however, can often make a very significant difference in the way they live their lives. That is why it is important to have a full and complete assessment. I hope that the Government, despite the contribution we have just heard from the Minister, will embrace that, not just because it is a coalition initiative but because it is fundamentally important when they are making such a significant change to the way in which support for disabled people works in the UK.

In the time available, I would like to talk about the work capability assessment, which I have done on a number of occasions over the past two and a half years. I must say that the Minister’s predecessor, the current Lord Chancellor, was someone I could engage with. I would not always agree with him, but he would at least listen. I went to see him on a number of occasions. That attitude contrasts sharply with what we have seen more recently. I make that point because I am afraid that that attitude underlies the importance of having this type of cumulative assessment.

I have asked a number of parliamentary questions about the work capability assessment. The Minister, who is now listening, will recall that I have asked written questions that his Department has answered, but lately it has decided that it will not answer them. It has decided that, as a result of a change in the resources available to it, it will not answer those questions because they were requested in a slightly different form. Those questions were asked in exactly the same way, but the Minister refused to answer them. He will be aware, because there have been at least two debates on this, that my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) sought to meet him, along with me and other campaigners, but he has refused to do so.

[Mr Hoban]

To be clear, what I have said—I have written to the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) about this—is that if We Are Spartacus, the group he wants to bring, comes up with some positive suggestions on how we can improve the WCA, I will meet it.

[Tom Greatrex]

If the Minister will not see my right hon. Friend, how can he know of the level of constructive engagement that the group is offering? The judgment he made at the start of that exchange was precisely that he would refuse to see it because he did not want to engage with it. I will leave the matter to my right hon. Friend, who I am sure will wish to speak about it. That is the point I am trying to make in relation to a number of consistent examples. I hope the Minister will reflect on it today and over the summer.

The National Audit Office commented last summer on the DWP’s failure to apply the penalties or service credits within the WCA in relation to Atos Healthcare’s underperformance and failure to seek adequate financial redress. It was almost as if it just did not want to apply them, because that would indicate that there was a problem in the system.

Benefits and Food Banks (County Durham)

Mark Hoban Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd July 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mr Mark Hoban)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) on securing the debate.

I believe that, in the long run, the process of welfare reform on which we have embarked will enable more people in County Durham to find work, and will help those who are in work but on low incomes. The hon. Gentleman implied that Durham county council was fearful of universal credit, but I believe that the council should welcome the opportunity that it presents. Our intervention and support will encourage and help people to move up the earnings scale.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

What about jobs?

[Mr Hoban]

I shall return to the subject of jobs shortly.

My Department has been asked a number of questions about food banks in recent weeks, and this evening I have listened to what the hon. Member for Sedgefield has said about constituents of his who make use of them. I hope he will be reassured to know that we do not think that they form part of the welfare system. We do not measure their use, but we do “signpost” people to them, just as we might direct people to any charity that provides help and support. I should add, however, that we know from the Trussell Trust’s own figures that only 2% of people say that they were directed to a food bank by Jobcentre Plus.

Under the current benefits system, it is not obvious to people that working will make them better off. The problem lies not with claimants, but with the system. Our reforms will, over time, deliver dynamic benefits as more people are encouraged to work and to increase their earnings. As all the evidence shows, work is the best route out of poverty for individuals and households. Universal credit is a seamless “in and out of work” benefit which will make it easier for people to move into work. Because people should know that work pays and earning more pays more, incentives are built into the system to encourage them to move from low incomes to higher ones. Over the next few months, we shall be identifying ways in which we can help people to increase their earnings and reduce their dependence on the welfare state, thus giving them more dignity and boosting their self-esteem.

Universal credit will make 3 million households better off and will lift a quarter of a million children out of poverty, because we are putting more money into the system. The hon. Gentleman asked about family poverty. Statistics relating to households with below-average incomes show that the number of children in workless poor families has fallen by 100,000 over the past year.

As well as making work pay, however, we must ensure that benefit payments are directed towards those who need them most, that they provide a fair deal for the taxpayer, and that they restore fiscal responsibility to our finances. The reforms that we have introduced are already helping more people to move into work. In the last year alone, there has been a 6% fall in the number of claimants of jobseeker’s allowance in County Durham, and the figure for young people is even better: 14% fewer are claiming the allowance.

The Work programme in County Durham is helping people to find sustained employment. Of the 12,000 who have joined the programme in County Durham, 1,200 have secured jobs, and four out of five of those have remained in work for longer than six months. That demonstrates—here I address the point made by the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones)—that there are jobs there, and that people are staying in employment. We are seeing a break in the pattern of worklessness that persisted under the last Government, who wrote off many of those people.

Let me give an example of what is happening under the Work programme. Wesley McGinn had applied for more than 1,000 jobs since leaving school. His provider worked with him to improve his interview skills and his CV, and helped him to search for jobs that matched his skills and aspirations. Now he is working for Care UK. Wesley has said:

“I'm so glad that Ingeus helped me succeed...I have a good job, I feel I am making a real difference, and I can now pay my own way in life.”

The system that we inherited from the last Government simply wrote people off when they were unfit for work, but in the last two years the number of people in County Durham receiving employment and support allowance and incapacity benefit has fallen by more than 3,000. Some of those people had been receiving incapacity benefit for more than five years. Now, either those people are in work or we are actively helping them to find work rather than writing them off and leaving them stuck on a life of benefits. We are beginning to see real change as a consequence of our reforms.

[Mr Jones]

The Minister is from County Durham, and presumably knows the area well. I must tell him, however, that when people in my constituency obtain work, it is low-paid work involving short-term contracts. Those people cannot secure the long-term security that they need. For instance, they cannot gain access to credit. The proposal in the autumn statement not to pay jobseeker’s allowance for the first seven days of unemployment will lead to poverty, and people in that position have no savings to fall back on.

[Mr Hoban]

People who lose their jobs are paid in arrears and the money we are saving by increasing the period from three days to seven is going to be used to provide more support to get more people into work and to get them into work quicker.

The benefit cap is often cited as a cause for referrals. We have decided to cap the total amount people can receive in benefits, and we will restore the incentive for them to move back into work. That is very important. We are working with Jobcentre Plus and local authorities to get people affected by the benefit cap into employment. We have given more money to councils through discretionary housing payments. In County Durham, only 200 households have been affected by the benefit cap, but we will work with those families to get them into employment.

Crisis loans were mentioned, so let me say a bit about the reform of the discretionary social fund and support for short-term financial need. From 1 April this year, locally based provision of crisis loans is being delivered by local authorities in England and the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales, because local authorities are best placed to ensure help is targeted at those most in need. Durham county council has delivered support through HAND—Help and Advice Network Durham.

Crisis support is provided in two forms. The first is settlement grants, where the applicant must have applied for a budgeting loan or advance from DWP if they are eligible to do so and have been declined. This aims to help people to remain in the community or move back into the community after a period in supported or unsettled accommodation. Awards are only available for items such as beds, bedding, furniture, white goods and kitchen equipment. The second is daily living expenses, to help to meet immediate short-term needs for goods or services that arise because of a disaster or unforeseen circumstances. Awards are available only for food, baby consumables, clothing, heating and travel, and for a maximum of seven days’ support. At a meeting last week County Durham local authority confirmed it was receiving about 50 to 60 applications a week, much less than the 250 to 300 per week it had anticipated. National provision is also available in the form of advances of benefit delivered by DWP for those awaiting first payment of benefit.

Provision is therefore available for those who have had a delay. The hon. Member for Sedgefield might want to ask Durham county council why it thinks it is getting far fewer applications for support than it expected.

[Phil Wilson]

I am still waiting for the Minister to get to the main point of my comments. What he is saying is all very well, but there are still half a million people using food banks for three main reasons, and other reasons as well. Are the Government going to do any analysis? Are they going to look at why people are using food banks, to see whether there is any way they can close the holes in the safety net that people are falling through? We should continue to reform welfare, so it is the state that is doing this, not charities.

[Mr Hoban]

We are making reforms to welfare. The hon. Gentleman raised the issue of people on low incomes using food banks, and I am saying that we are introducing universal credit, which will support people on low incomes and increase their earnings. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is doing a review of food aid. That is in the public domain and it will be reporting shortly.

The hon. Gentleman raised the issue of benefit delays. The Trussell Trust has said that benefit delays are accounting for an increase in referrals to food banks, from 18.6% to 32.8% over the last year. However, our figures show that since April 2010 we have speeded up our processing of benefit claims by almost 5%. It is therefore hard to square the argument put by the Trussell Trust and the hon. Gentleman with what is happening in benefit centres.

The hon. Gentleman asked what is happening locally in benefit centres. In the Sunderland benefit centre, there has been a delay in processing jobseeker’s allowance claims. It is below the national average, but he will be reassured to know that it is back on an upward trajectory, so we are clearing work faster. The national target is 90%, and we hit that. In the year to date, we have hit 79.5% in Sunderland, with the figure for May being 81.4%, so we are improving.

On employment and support allowance clearance rates, hon. Members will be pleased to know that in the Sunderland benefits centre, which covers County Durham, we exceed the national target of 85%. [Interruption.] Nationally, the argument the Trussell Trust is making is that the situation is down to benefit delay, but the point I am making is that we have speeded up the processing of benefits, so there is a mismatch. There has been an issue to address in the Sunderland benefits centre, but that has been tackled in respect of jobseeker’s allowance. In the north-east, the Sunderland benefits centre is processing claims faster than the national target, so there is a disconnect at a local level between what is being said by the Trussell Trust and others, and what the statistics show. We publish the figures for processing times and for sanctions, so that hon. Members can see them.

In conclusion, we are seeing a process of benefit reform that is helping the north-east; it is getting people off benefit and into work. We see that in the Work programme, in the falling levels of incapacity benefit claims and in what is happening with JSA claims. We are trying to tackle a processing backlog in County Durham, but what we are seeing generally is that we are processing benefits far faster than we were in April 2010, and Labour Members should welcome that. Our reforms are the long-term solution to the welfare issue, as they ensure that we give people the dignity and self-esteem that comes from being in employment.