Oral Answers to Questions

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Wednesday 5th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Carmichael]

I would dismiss nobody’s opinion and I would engage with people of all shades of opinion across this debate, but the fact is that Bob Dudley is not a lone voice. He is part of a growing chorus from the business community in Scotland who highlight the dangers that would come from independence. They all say the same—it would be a risk to their business because of the uncertainty of the future position of the currency and membership of the European Union. On those two key issues, the nationalists have no comfort for business.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

As the Secretary of State has said, it is welcome that the chief executive of BP and the outgoing chief executive of Sainsbury’s have both spelled out substantial concerns about independence. Does the Secretary of State agree that all businesses, trade unions and voluntary organisations have a right to be heard without insult, intimidation or fear of the consequences, regardless of which side of the debate they are on?

[Mr Carmichael]

I do, absolutely, and in that regard I commend the efforts of the Scottish Daily Mail, which in recent weeks has sought to highlight the poison coming into the debate from some of the cyber-interventions. Other hon. Members have also raised this issue. Whatever the outcome on 18 September we will all have to work together in Scotland for its best future, and that will not be possible if we allow the well to be poisoned in the way the cyber-Nats in particular seem determined to do.

[Margaret Curran]

I thank the Secretary of State for that response, but may I press him a little further? Business leaders have told me of intimidatory tactics being used in an attempt to stop them intervening in the independence debate. One leader of a FTSE company told Robert Peston of the BBC that the Scottish Government “became very aggressive” when he tried to raise concerns about independence. Just yesterday, Bob Dudley of BP was dismissed by the yes campaign as “a British nationalist”. Will the Secretary of State join me in condemning the pattern of behaviour that we are beginning to see in Scotland and say, in the strongest possible terms, that it has no place for us Scots as we debate our future?

[Mr Carmichael]

I agree with the hon. Lady on that point in the very strongest terms. She knows as well as I do that the incidents she highlights are by no means isolated—we hear them anecdotally all the time. I encourage anyone who is bullied or intimidated in that way to follow the example of Chris Whatley, an academic from Dundee university who appeared at a Better Together event before Christmas, following which a Scottish Government Minister was on the phone to his employers saying he should be silenced. That is deplorable and no way in which to conduct the debate on Scotland’s future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Wednesday 18th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

It is never a surprise to hear the Scottish National party mention London in the same breath as Scotland. As I said to the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Mr Roy), the Government believe that the living wage is a concept that should be supported, where employers can afford it and where it is not introduced at the cost of jobs.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

May I associate myself with the Minister’s remarks about the terrible tragedy of Lockerbie?

Low pay is one of the reasons that people are using food banks in Scotland today. I wish nothing personal towards the Minister, but I am disappointed that the Secretary of State did not answer this question himself, because we know that the Secretary of State has recently begun to struggle with some of the details of his brief. Let me see whether the Minister can do any better. Will he tell the House what the percentage increase in the number of people using food banks in Scotland in the past year has been? Given that it is Christmas, I will offer him a hand. Is it (a) 100%; (b) 200%; (c) over 400%?

[David Mundell]

What the hon. Lady omitted to tell us was that under her Government the increase in people using food banks was 1,000%. Our Government are concerned about people needing to use food banks in a moment of crisis in their lives. We support the development of food banks and those who operate them, and I was very proud to open the food bank in Peebles in my constituency. But to pretend that these crises are of this Government’s making and that they have not been going on for a continuing period is to mislead the House.

[Margaret Curran]

The Minister should know that the increase in the past year has been 435%, which is more than 34,000 people, including more than 10,000 children, using food banks in Scotland. Those are shameful figures and all Members of this House should pay attention to them. He has refused to be drawn on why this is happening. Citizens Advice, the Trussell Trust and the Child Poverty Action Group are all saying that this Government’s policies are driving people in Scotland to use food banks. Are they all wrong?

[David Mundell]

Of course the hon. Lady does not acknowledge the 1,000% rise in the use of food banks under the last Labour Government. We want to look at, and understand, why there has been an increase in the use of food banks. That is why the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has committed to an extensive study on the use of food aid across the United Kingdom, and she will be able to read that when it is published.

Helicopter Crash (Glasgow)

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Monday 2nd December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement. This has been a dark weekend for Glasgow and our whole country. When we should have woken to celebrate St Andrew’s day on Saturday, we were instead met with unexpected tragedy, and when I attended mass on behalf of Her Majesty’s Opposition in St Andrew’s cathedral on Saturday, yards from the site, there was a real sense of shock.

I have lived all my life in Glasgow, and I know that when we hurt, we grieve together and we mourn together. Today, all Glasgow and all Scotland are united in grief. I echo the Secretary of State’s tributes to the nine people whose deaths have been confirmed, and the whole House joins together to send a message of deep sympathy to their loved ones. We also remember the people who are still being treated in hospital.

Today, with the Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar), I visited the command centre in Glasgow to thank the representatives of the police, fire and rescue and ambulance services. Their response to this tragedy has been exemplary. We also thank staff in Glasgow’s hospitals who provided care and comfort to the injured and their families. I pay tribute to them and to those who are still at the Clutha Vaults bar leading the recovery. I also pay tribute to my right hon. and personal Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy), who assisted at the site on Friday night and was very moved in his television appearances. He has asked me to pass on his apologies today as he is on parliamentary business in the Philippines.

Our minds are still focused on those who died and suffered injuries, but we must establish what happened on Friday night to prevent such tragedies in the future. The Secretary of State noted in his statement that the air accident investigation has begun, and the deputy chief inspector of the air accidents investigation branch has said we can expect an initial report soon. Will the Secretary of State tell the House whether we can expect that report before Christmas?

Questions are beginning to be asked in Glasgow, and families and others need answers. Will investigations now under way cover the manufacture and operation of this helicopter, including the circumstances of the incident but also implication for its future and further use? I recognise that the Secretary of State has embraced a strong cross-party approach to this issue, which I appreciate. Will he continue the cross-governmental and cross-party work that I think has united our country in showing that, whatever divides us, in moments such as this, we are prepared to work together?

Finally, the Secretary of State indicated that Glasgow city council and the Scottish Government have already offered practical support to the residents of the city, particularly to those most involved. What support will the UK Government offer to Glasgow and to the families of the victims of the crash?

The whole city of Glasgow and the people across Scotland and the United Kingdom are joined together in grief and shock. It has been a dark weekend, but as we heard at the Church of Scotland sermon at Glasgow cathedral on Sunday:

“Darkness shall not snatch everything from us.”

I know the people of my city of Glasgow. Out of this weekend, I know that it is not the darkness that will live on; it is the spirit of the people who did not turn and run from the Clutha Vaults pub, but who ran towards the danger and worked arm in arm to lift men and women to safety. Out of this tragedy, that is the most powerful tribute.

[Mr Carmichael]

I commend the hon. Lady for her response and for the approach that she has taken. We have been in close contact throughout the course of this weekend and I very much expect that to continue. If I may say so, the ability of the Government, the Opposition and the Scottish National party to work together is the very least we can do in these circumstances. To take any other approach would be wholly inappropriate, given the magnificent response we have seen from the people of Glasgow.

On the question of the early report of the air accidents investigation branch, it would be impossible to give any undertakings at the moment. I can say that the earliest possible publication of the interim report will be made. I very much hope that in the course of the investigation any information that can be supplied to the families will be supplied. Should there be any difficulties in that regard, my office, and I am sure the office of the Secretary of State for Transport will stand ready to address any issues.

On the support to be given by Glasgow city council, the council is best placed to deliver that support. It has all the facilities in the communities and knows best where to find the people who need assistance and comfort. I am in regular contact with the leader of Glasgow city council and I value the strength of the working relationship between his office and mine. I am confident that should there be need for assistance from Her Majesty’s Government in Westminster, he will not be slow in asking. We will do everything within our power to give him the assistance he needs.

Piper Alpha Disaster

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Thursday 11th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

Last Saturday, I, attended, on behalf of Her Majesty’s Opposition, the remembrance service for the victims of Piper Alpha at Hazlehead park in Aberdeen, as did many hon. Members here, including the Secretary of State. As hon. Members have said, it was a moving tribute that reminded us of the full scale and depth of the tragedy, and we saw again the sorrow of the families left behind. In this House today, we offer them our deepest sympathy.

I, too, remember Piper Alpha and the pain that was felt throughout Scotland at the loss of those who had given so much for a vital Scottish industry. May I, like others, pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran), who has been a constant advocate for the victims of Piper Alpha and has consistently worked since then to ensure the safety and protection of the workers in the oil industry? He speaks with great authority and has gained much respect for his work on these matters.

We have heard from many hon. Members about the events of 6 July 1988, and no matter how many times we hear these stories, they do not get any easier. Most of us have waved a husband, wife, son or daughter off to work in the morning—it is part of the rhythm of life—but few have had to deal with them not returning. That is what happened to the families of the 167 men who died as a result of the disaster on the Piper Alpha platform. The families of those who work in the North sea already make the sacrifice of having long weeks with loved ones away from home, and they worry about them working in a potentially dangerous environment. The very least that those who work in hazardous conditions can expect is that we have done all we can to guarantee their safety. With Piper Alpha, and with the whole oil and gas sector at that point in the 1980s, that was, sadly, simply not the case.

When Lord Cullen was appointed to lead the inquiry into the disaster, the then Government gave him a wide-ranging mandate to investigate the sequence of events that night and to make recommendations about how to prevent a similar disaster in the future. As many hon. Members have said, he completed his inquiry in 1990, producing a comprehensive and far-reaching report, and we still owe him a debt of gratitude for the work he did to bring in a new safety regime for the North sea.

Before turning to Lord Cullen’s recommendations, I want to spend a moment or two revisiting some of the points made by hon. Members about the sequence of events on board the platform on that terrible night. As has been said, the first explosion happened at just after 10 pm, when there were 226 people on board. Most of the witnesses remember the final thing they heard before the explosion as the pips from the radio news and the start of “News at Ten”. The captain of the Lowland Cavalier, which was stationed 25 metres away from the platform, reported seeing the start of the explosion, which looked like “a gas burner”. He said that

“it seemed to go along the bottom of the platform like a light blue explosion or ignition.”

Between four minutes past 10 and eight minutes past 10, three mayday calls were sent from Piper Alpha. Mike Craig, former chair of what was the Offshore Industry Liaison Committee, was a radio operator on board another platform in July 1988, and he remembered hearing the first of the maydays from his radio room that night. He recalled recently that

“the radio operator on the Piper was heard sending a series of alarmed Mayday messages, and the whole horror of the disaster began to unfold. It was a long and harrowing night.”

At 20 past 10, another major explosion occurred on the platform when the Tartan gas riser ruptured, and the first men began jumping into the North sea from the north-west corner of the platform. By 10 to 11, there was a further massive explosion caused by the rupture of another gas riser, this time from MCP-01. That was the most powerful, projecting debris over 800 metres and with enough force to be felt more than a mile away.

All that time, the majority of the remaining survivors on the platform were following the instructions they had been given for emergencies, which were to gather in the accommodation unit and await rescue, but by this point no helicopter rescue was going to be possible. As Lord Cullen notes in his report:

“there was no organised escape. If leadership occurred in these escapes, it arose by individuals joining those who seemed to know their way around.”

Those actions probably saved the lives of the 28 men who escaped the accommodation block, but, as we know, many more did not make it out and when the block was salvaged later in 1988, 81 bodies were found inside. Just three hours after the first explosion, the centre of the platform had collapsed into the North sea and the few survivors who remained were picked up in the hours that followed.

The full horror of what happened on Piper Alpha can be seen from the many photographs that were taken that night. They show the platform engulfed in flames, fuelled by a constant stream of gas from the risers that did not properly shut down. The effect, according to one eyewitness, was like a giant “bunsen burner”.

The scale of the disaster called for a radical rethink of the safety measures in place in the North sea and that is what Lord Cullen provided. His 106 recommendations covered the safety regime, design of platforms, procedures for evacuations and the involvement of the work force. The safety case regime meant a rigorous system that elevated responsibility for safety on the platforms to board level. The move of the regulator from the Department of Energy to the Health and Safety Executive removed the conflict of interest caused by the Department being both regulator and beneficiary of the oil and gas extracted from the North sea.

Those wide-ranging changes in the oil and gas industry were absolutely necessary, but Members should be in no doubt that they could not have happened without the pressure brought to bear by the families of victims, their supporters and their trade unions.

Since then the industry has done much to mitigate risk and, as has been said, we have seen a significant reduction in the number of fatalities in the industry in recent years, but we must not be complacent. Concerns remain, particularly around the regulatory environment and the Government’s proposed changes to the Health and Safety Executive.

One of the linchpins of the Cullen report was the establishment of the regulator in a separate part of the HSE. After the Government’s proposed reorganisation of the HSE, the regulator for oil and gas will become part of a new energy division inside the organisation, ending the dedicated division for the first time since Lord Cullen’s recommendations were implemented. As my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) said, that was done with a lack of proper consultation with trade unions and with oil and gas companies.

In conclusion, will the Secretary of State assure the House that those changes will not affect the UK’s safety case regime and that that world-leading safety regime will not be affected? The increased risk that comes with operating ageing platforms and drilling in more hazardous environments and the events in the last year on the Cormorant Alpha platform, as well as the major gas leak from Total’s installation in the Elgin field in March 2012, mean that it is more important than ever that we do not forget the lessons of Piper Alpha. Will the Secretary of State assure the House that he is satisfied with the inspection regime? What action has been taken on the issues identified in the interim report on key programme 4 and when will we find out when that report is to be published?

In particular, will the Secretary of State tell the House what discussions he has had with the oil and gas industry regarding the HSE’s observation that when it comes to ageing infrastructure,

“more innovative work is required…to involve the workforce”

in health and safety issues.

Twenty-five years ago Piper Alpha took 167 lives. The youngest victim was just 19—Mark Ashton from Inverurie. The oldest was David Wiser at 65. They were all men with lives left to live. Speeches in honour of them in this place are a fitting memorial, but today we should rededicate ourselves to taking continued action to ensure that such a disaster never happens again. In that way, we pay due respect to the victims and their families.

Oral Answers to Questions

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Wednesday 26th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. It has suddenly gone quiet, which is very encouraging, but there was excessive noise in the Chamber. I know, however, that Members will want to be quiet for Margaret Curran.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

For those who are in employment, will the Secretary of State for Scotland tell the House whether average wages have gone up or gone down in Scotland since the last election?

[Michael Moore]

I would have hoped the hon. Lady would welcome the fact that more people are in employment as a result of the measures we are taking, and that we have created nearly 150,000 private sector jobs in Scotland. Of course there are still challenges facing the economy, but the hon. Lady will remember the legacy she left us, and she can see for herself the crisis in the eurozone. We remain committed to taking the steps that will continue our progress on the road to recovery.

[Margaret Curran]

Once again the Secretary of State does not let the facts get in the way of the same old answer. Average wages in Scotland have, in fact, gone down by £1,100 since he took office. That is the equivalent of 14 tanks of petrol, 15 weekly shops, or over nine months of gas and electricity bills. The Secretary of State has said in the past

“the horrible truth is…everyone is going to have to make a contribution”.

Is this what he had in mind?

[Michael Moore]

Despite the changes from the shadow Chancellor in recent days, the hon. Lady does not seem to have caught up with the new script—the recognition that the Labour party left the decks burning when it went out of office three years ago. She is not going to be credible until she faces up to that. What I have said to her is, “Yes, these are tough times, and they continue to be challenging,” but what we are doing, by raising the tax threshold so that 224,000 Scots are out of tax all together and 2 million Scots are enjoying a £600 per annum reduction in their income tax bill, is very important. We continue to work for fairness and for a successful economy.

Oral Answers to Questions

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s analysis, which of course assumes that everything would be rosy in an independent Scotland, despite the hard realities we keep confronting him with. We are absolutely determined to get the economy on a strong footing, invest in our future and support hard-pressed families. That is what the Budget was all about.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

This Government promised that they would get people back to work. By how much has long-term unemployment in Scotland been reduced on the Secretary of State’s watch?

[Michael Moore]

I am interested to hear that the hon. Lady did not welcome the reduction in unemployment announced last week. The number of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance in Scotland is below 200,000 and the unemployment rate is 7.3%, which is below the rate for the UK as a whole. We have some very long-term, deep-seated problems that we inherited from her Government that we continue to tackle. We have credible plans; where are hers?

[Margaret Curran]

Shockingly, the number of people in Scotland who have been out of work for two years has increased by 517% during the Secretary of State’s time in office, which is far worse than across the UK as a whole. Is there anything specific he can offer those people out of work long term in Scotland, or is he just content to be a Tory puppet repeating their lines on the Budget?

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Lady knows, because she and I visited the Shettleston jobcentre in her constituency, that we are working hard to ensure that we provide support for people in very difficult circumstances in Scotland. She picks just one statistic, which is important, and ignores all the rest. Some 70,000 more people are in employment in Scotland over the past three years. We are determined to ensure that we get the economy back from the brink, where her party left it three years ago. We continue to work hard to do that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Wednesday 13th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

I want a sustainable welfare system that protects the most vulnerable and supports people into work and makes it pay. The reforms under universal credit will help to ensure that happens—backed up by our fair tax delivery, which has meant that more than 180,000 Scots have been taken out of tax altogether and that 2 million Scottish families on low and middle incomes are paying less tax.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State make a representation on behalf of my constituent, Mrs Frances Connor? Treatment for her cancer has left her with no feeling in her feet or hands. Her only help comes from her son, who stays with her three nights a week. The bedroom tax means that she cannot afford the room where her son stays. Why is the Secretary of State making it impossible for a son to care for his mother?

[Michael Moore]

Like the hon. Lady, I express my deepest sympathy to her constituent and her family and recognise the challenging personal circumstances in which they live. We are looking to support some of the most vulnerable in these circumstances with transitional arrangements, and I would be happy to discuss that further with the hon. Lady.

[Margaret Curran]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. Perhaps in that discussion we could talk about the thousands of others who are hit by this bedroom tax, because the transitional protections do not help those people. I wonder if the right hon. Gentleman ever imagined that he would be signing off such policies with the Tories. Last year he said:

“judge us by our record.”

Is making a son’s care for his mother unaffordable what he had in mind?

[Michael Moore]

May I, as I did in response to the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), remind the hon. Lady of the scale of the financial challenge that faced this Government when they came into office and the need to tackle those serious problems? She should also remember that we have introduced huge extra measures to help families across Scotland. I have to say to her, as I said to the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson), that we are not hearing credible solutions coming forward from her and her colleagues. Until such time as we do, we will not take any lessons on fairness from her.

Constitutional Law

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Tuesday 15th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

This is indeed an important day in the life of our nation and this Parliament. Rarely do we have an opportunity to debate an issue as fundamental as the future of our country.

Let me be clear at the outset that we welcome the order that is before the House today. This House has witnessed significant discussions on the future of nations, most recently the future of Scotland and Wales in the Union and the constitutional status of Northern Ireland. Today’s discussion is no less significant, for two reasons. First, it contemplates the possibility of an end to the 300-year-old Union with Scotland. That is important to emphasise, not just for those of us in the Chamber who are from Scotland, but for people who live in the rest of the United Kingdom but believe in a United Kingdom with Scotland as a crucial part of it—I give due recognition to the good people of Corby for their enthusiasm for that commitment. Secondly, today’s discussion is significant because it is a novel way of settling the issue. Parliament is being invited not to legislate or to make a decision, but to delegate the power, under certain strict conditions, to the Scottish Parliament, ultimately—we should never forget this—to allow the Scottish people to make that decision.

The agreement puts it beyond doubt that, in the words of the First Minister and the Secretary of State, the referendum will be “made in Scotland”. It can be argued that this is not just an example of the success of the United Kingdom’s democracy, but evidence of the strength of the Scottish Parliament—a devolved institution argued for and established by, of course, a Labour Government. The principle that the referendum should be controlled by the Scottish Parliament is important in commanding respect from all sides. However, it is particularly significant in ensuring that after the referendum the Scottish Government cannot suggest that there is any ambiguity about the process or the result. The choice before the people of Scotland is straightforward: whether to leave the United Kingdom or to continue in a partnership of equals in a Union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

As I said at the outset, Labour Members support the order. We support it because, if followed, the principles contained in it, as well as in the memorandum of agreement, would provide for a referendum that met the test that we set at the start—namely that, as the Secretary of State said, it should be fair, legal and decisive. Together, the agreement and the order provide that all three conditions can be met if all parties in the referendum hold to their spirit and their letter. It is clear that we now have the opportunity to put before the people of Scotland the question of separation, and that decision will bind us all. As the agreement says, the referendum will deliver a decisive expression of the views of the people of Scotland, along with a result that everyone will respect and must respect.

This debate is important, because endless constitutional uncertainty is bad for all interests in Scotland, not least those of us who would rather spend our time, energy and efforts dealing with the reality of life for hundreds of thousands of Scots, if not millions, who need us to focus on defending and pursuing their interests. Labour spent a generation arguing for devolution, against the protests of the parties opposite—or one of them, I should say; I am in a generous mood towards the Secretary of State today.

[Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab)]

And against the party on the Benches behind us.

[Margaret Curran]

Indeed. Other parties opposed devolution, as my right hon. Friend points out. We argued for devolution because it was the best way to deliver social justice and economic progress and because it commanded the support of the vast majority of the Scottish people.

[Mr MacNeil]

I wonder if the hon. Lady can tell us whether the ends of social justice were advanced last week in the Commons when the majority of Scottish MPs voted against welfare reforms that are being foisted on Scotland by MPs from the rest of the UK. How does that further the ends of social justice and why does she support the right of a Tory Government to govern Scotland and do exactly that? Why is she not an independence supporter?

[Margaret Curran]

For many years I have argued with the SNP, which wants to say that the problem facing Scotland is the English. I say that the problem facing Scotland at the moment is the Tories and the SNP. The SNP is imposing college cuts, and making Scotland one of the nations of the United Kingdom with the highest increases in unemployment. The hon. Gentleman would be well fit to look to his own party to see the damage it is inflicting in Scotland, instead of always trying to hide behind the blanket of independence—[Interruption]—although I thank him for that encouragement to energise this debate.

The order we are debating today demonstrates that devolution has been a success. It has empowered Scots and given our nation a new sense of confidence. With it, we have modernised and changed Britain and the way we govern ourselves. Labour Members will take the opportunity that the referendum presents us with to make the argument for a prosperous Scotland within a United Kingdom, backed up by a strong devolution settlement. We will be arguing against the nationalists, who would stop devolution in its tracks just 15 years after we set out on this journey and after it has been so successful. At the end of this process, that means that perhaps we can finally heed the advice of Scotland’s first First Minister.

[Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)]

Does the hon. Lady think that the SNP might be better prepared for the situation we are in today if it had taken any part in the reform process that has delivered devolution and home rule to date?

[Margaret Curran]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention, which affords me the opportunity to draw attention to the fact that those who opposed devolution—perhaps most strongly at some points—were those in the Scottish National party, which never participated on any multi-party basis to give Scotland the constitutional agreement that we now have. In fact, many of us who were prepared to work with others—and who demonstrated that we could do so—did, in fact, work in the best interests of Scotland.

The right hon. Gentleman also allows me to make the point—which I was just about to make—that we should heed the advice of Scotland’s first First Minister, Donald Dewar, who said in 1998:

“The…decade must not be one long embittering fight over further constitutional change. For me, the question now is what we do with our Parliament, not what we do to it.”

In these challenging economic times, perhaps we should focus our minds on the powers of the Scottish Parliament and question how they are being exercised at the moment. That, too, should occupy our energies.

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend has just mentioned the late, great Donald Dewar, who said that the decade from 1998 should not be a decade of stifling the Scottish Parliament, but since the SNP got a majority in that Parliament, has not its whole ethos indeed been stifled?

[Margaret Curran]

I thank my hon. Friend for that point. As a number of hon. Members present know, I served in the Scottish Parliament for 12 years. I was part of many of the exciting developments and changes it inaugurated, but it is with deep disappointment that I now see a Parliament that does not seem to have the proper opportunity to scrutinise the Executive who are part of that arrangement and who also seem to be significantly failing the Scottish people. Although I see constitutional change as a means to an end, I have never seen it as an end in itself. It would serve the Scottish people well if the Scottish Government focused on the work of serving the Scottish people and their interests, rather than just for ever furthering the goal of constitutional change.

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

This is something I raised in a previous speech on Scotland, but today we have once again heard the chuntering from the SNP, whose Members are sat on the Benches beside me—the bullying tactics that have been used in the Scottish Parliament to stop proper legislation going through. Can we trust these people?

[Margaret Curran]

I thank my hon. Friend for that contribution. It encourages me to look forward to the substance of the debate on the referendum, when the Scottish people will give not only their verdict on whether they think their interests lie best in the United Kingdom, but ultimately their view of the SNP Government, who, rather than addressing their interests, are for ever saying that everything can be solved through the prism of independence, without ever presenting a substantial argument for why that would be the case.

[Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)]

The hon. Lady touches on an important point about the Scottish Parliament legislating in the interests of Scotland. Does she agree that the Scotland Act 2012 will devolve considerable additional powers over many fiscal matters to the Scottish Parliament, and that it is surely better to concentrate on using those powers rather than constantly trying to change the goal posts constitutionally?

--- Later in debate ---

[Margaret Curran]

The hon. Gentleman makes a significant point. I have always believed in a strong Scotland within the United Kingdom, and I have for many years believed that devolution was significant in helping to govern Scotland effectively. The passing of the 2012 Act was another stage in that process, which offers the Scottish people the opportunity to effectively govern themselves, but still have the advantage of the partnership that is the United Kingdom. I firmly believe that the prospects for separation offered by the Scottish National party do not work in the best interests of the Scottish people, and in fact signify that the SNP has failed to listen to them. Since its inception, they have believed that the Union damages Scotland. Its view has never changed and never evolved. We are all calling for a positive debate, and it is disappointing to see so little of that coming from those Benches this afternoon.

[Sir Menzies Campbell]

I am most grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way; she is being very generous. Her felicitous reference to Donald Dewar, a friend and colleague of several of us still in the House today, has struck a chord certainly with me and I am sure with others. Arising from what she has just said, and referring back to something she said earlier, what does she make of the suggestion that were the question to be answered in the negative, that would not be the end of the matter so far as the Scottish National party was concerned, and that if it had the opportunity it might seek, as early as was convenient, to institute yet another referendum, thereby raising the possibility of what I think in Quebec is called the “neverendum”, of which the issue is the only one which dominates political discourse in Scotland?

[Margaret Curran]

I thank the right hon. and learned Gentleman—I am so pleased to have got parliamentary protocol right for once. This is one of the most disappointing elements of the debate so far. We have gone to great lengths to create a process that will allow for a fair and established result that should be observed by all participating parties. We have all said that we will respect the decision of the Scottish people, wherever we stand in this debate, and it is incumbent on the SNP to participate in that and to not always say, irrespective of the result, that it will just come back again and again with a “neverendum”, allegedly. Perhaps in today’s debate the SNP will put on record that they will absolutely respect the result of the referendum, now that we are past the starting blocks, and absolutely guarantee that they will respect the wishes of the Scottish people and not for ever seek to usurp that decision, as certain comments have seemed to imply.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Based on what the hon. Lady has just said, if there is a no vote and Labour form the Government down here in 2016 after the general election, is she saying that there will not be any further constitutional change and a further Scotland Act, and that anyone who wants to see progress on greater powers for Scotland will have to vote yes in 2014?

[Margaret Curran]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution and I look forward to Labour forming a Government here in 2016. We will introduce many pro policies to the benefit of the people of Scotland and the United Kingdom. Of course, we should look at the prospect of Scots voting to stay within the United Kingdom, because I believe that there is a strong likelihood of that—although I would never be complacent and would always respect the views of the Scottish people. As I said in answer to the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart), I absolutely believe that devolution is vital to the interests of Scotland and vital to the interests of the United Kingdom. We have always said that devolution is a process, and that time and circumstance will dictate future interests. As the hon. Gentleman may or may not know, Johann Lamont, our leader of the Labour party in Scotland, has set up a devolution commission. Our test in that devolution commission will not be pre-set, as some nationalists would have us do because they have already decided what should happen. Our views will be determined by the interests of the people of Scotland, and what serves their interests best.

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the fundamental fault line in Scottish politics at the moment is between those who support separation from the rest of the United Kingdom and those who want to stay part of the United Kingdom, and that any talk about the process of devolution and so on in the current context of discussing a referendum on independence is actually a diversionary tactic by the SNP to try to divert us from the fact that after 80 years of preparation, it has zilch to say about the future of Scotland?

[Margaret Curran]

I thank my hon. Friend for that effective intervention. I will make reference to why some are urging that there should be a second question as I progress.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

If I can take my hon. Friend back to the intervention by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) from Plaid Cymru, is the situation not entirely the reverse of what he suggests? If people vote no in the referendum—against separation—there will be opportunities to develop devolution and the Scottish Parliament, but if people vote yes to independence, then that is it. There will be no second thoughts—that will be once and for all and final. There should be no doubt whatsoever of the consequence of such a vote.

[Margaret Curran]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. May I be absolutely crystal clear? The way to stop devolution in Scotland, in its current form and in any further developments, is to vote for separation. That is the way to end devolution. If people want to continue devolution and have a strong element of devolution in the partnership that is the United Kingdom, they should vote against nationalist wishes in the referendum.

The referendum offers us the opportunity to settle the question decisively, once and for all. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) said, this is a fault line in Scottish politics—people either support partnership with the United Kingdom or they support separation. We need to settle this once and for all, and then move away from the issue that keeps Alex Salmond awake at night to the concerns that keep our constituents awake at night.

Let me turn to the order. As the Secretary of State has outlined, article 3 removes the reservation of the power to hold a referendum on the independence of Scotland from the rest of the UK, and stipulates conditions relating to the date of the poll and the nature of the question. On this side of the House, we have argued consistently for a poll that would come earlier than 2014, as has been indicated. As business leaders, civil society and others have said, a vote conducted more than 18 months from now while the country continues to face some of the most testing economic circumstances in a generation, adds, at the very minimum, to the uncertainty faced by the Scottish people.

We would have sought an earlier poll. However, we understand the challenges faced by Government, the issues around the legislative timeline and the need to provide a full debate. As such, we hope that the period between now and the referendum itself will be used to full advantage. If I can make reference to a comment made by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin, I hope that that timeline—the amount of time involved—will ensure that the Scottish Parliament has the maximum time to debate and process this issue. It should also be used to ensure that Scots are provided with a robust and informed debate. So far, Scots are not getting the information to which they are reasonably entitled, even at this stage, by the party proposing separation. There is still much more information to be given by those who are proposing separation. As the protagonists, it is reasonable to expect them to do that.

Article 3 provides the clarity that the referendum will consist of a single question, as I made reference to in response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling. For a decision of this magnitude, we have always believed that this is the only way to provide absolute clarity for the Scottish people. A multi-question referendum, as some on the nationalist Benches have argued for, would not only have led to confusion but, as the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs has previously pointed out, would have been out of step with international precedents. It would also have been detrimental had we included a question for which there was no clear offering, in terms of powers to the Scottish Parliament, and no group able to make the case where there was no distinct proposal and no clarity about the details of what was being proposed.

Although the issue concerning the number of questions has been resolved, the order gives the Scottish Parliament the power to set the wording of the question. In this area, we still have several concerns. First, we are not confident that the question proposed by the Scottish Government provides those voting in the referendum with sufficient clarity. Secondly, in the light of that, we are concerned that the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister have not committed themselves to following the recommendations of the independent, objective Electoral Commission.

[Fiona O’Donnell]

My hon. Friend is making a reasoned and reasonable contribution. Hansard has sought clarification about whether SNP Members have today been described as “big fearties” or “big fairies”. Would she like to express her opinion?

[Margaret Curran]

Oh dear, dear, dear! Both. Can I say that? Would that be okay? I do understand it, however, and perhaps I can offer clarification for people. On that basis, I would certainly say both.

The agreement between the UK and Scottish Governments sets out:

“Both Governments agree on the importance of the referendum being overseen in an impartial way by bodies that can command the confidence of both sides of the campaign.”

That is an essential element of the agreement. It is not simply the oversight of the campaign, however, but how the recommendations and views of the Electoral Commission are treated by the Scottish Government that will determine whether the process is seen as impartial by the people of Scotland. If the SNP and the Scottish Government wish to reassure all participants in the referendum that they will conduct it properly, fairly and equitably, with respect to all interests, they could easily offer that reassurance by accepting the wording of the Electoral Commission. That would take us further down the road, so I hope that we can get an offer on that today. Ministers in the SNP Government have to set aside partisan advantage and approach the process with Scotland’s best interests, not their party’s, in mind, and it would be reassuring if they could clarify the matter so as not to be open to that charge. They could easily prove that they are not open to it.

The Electoral Commission’s role has to extend beyond the wording, however. We accept that the Electoral Management Board will deal with the practical arrangements for the referendum, but, to ensure the probity of the process, the Scottish Government must accept the rulings of the Electoral Commission, not just on the wording but on the key issue of campaign funding. The commission has made known its views on funding, but the Scottish Government are at odds with it. Clearly, we cannot end up in the ridiculous situation where the future of our country is determined by campaigns that have a sum total of 1p to spend per voter over the entire regulated period. We are also concerned that the Scottish Government’s proposed limits would lead to restrictions on the ability of third-party organisations, such as trade unions and businesses, to participate fully in the campaign. As I have said, the length of the campaign offers the opportunity for a full and robust debate on Scotland’s future, and surely an informed and knowledgeable voter is worth more than a penny.

Although the order will formally pass the relevant powers to the Scottish Parliament, much of the detail about how the referendum will proceed is contained in the memorandum of agreement. The status of this agreement has been the subject of some debate, however, so will the Secretary of State or the Minister confirm the status of the agreement? Does it legally bind the parties concerned? If not, what legal advice have they received regarding its status? We would have preferred the order to contain the level of detail in the memorandum, but we understand the practical considerations involved, and, as I said at the outset, the agreement and order, if taken together and if followed in the spirit and the letter, provide the basis for a fair, legal and decisive referendum. People in Scotland will not look kindly on any attempt to ignore or wilfully reinterpret the agreement or on any party playing party politics with that. Understandably, that would be seen as cynical and disingenuous.

With this order, we come one step closer to the 2014 referendum and an historic decision for the people of Scotland. The tone and tenor of our debate have to match the aspirations we have for it, so we have to move away from the confusion and muddle that have characterised too much of the discussion so far, grasp the nettle and deal with the difficult and challenging issues facing Scotland. That is what the Labour party is doing and will continue to do. The debate cannot simply be an accountancy exercise; it must be a debate where we lay out our alternative visions for the future of Scotland and its people; and a debate that meets the aspirations of generations of Labour advocates of devolution.

If I may make further reference to Donald Dewar, let me say that introspection will not solve our problems, and nor will a preoccupation with constitutional points scoring. Responding to the needs of the Scottish people is what matters. In passing the order, we will pass another milestone towards a referendum in which the Scottish people will have their say on whether to break with a partnership of 300 years or continue in the family of nations that is the United Kingdom. “Section 30” is a technical term and will not grab the imagination of too many Scots, but it will usher in a debate of enormous magnitude in which the future of families, industries, services and much else will be at stake. Today is the clarion call to get on with the substance of the issues and to determine the arguments that look to the future of that great country of Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Angus Robertson]

Now I will make progress.

The referendum will be carried out with Scottish electoral professionals running the vote and announcing the result. That will be co-ordinated through the Electoral Management Board for Scotland and regulated by the Electoral Commission. The poll will, therefore, be beyond reproach. As the Edinburgh agreement says, it will

“meet the highest standards of fairness, transparency and propriety, informed by consultation and independent expert advice.”

The Electoral Commission is included in that. It is in everybody’s interests that this referendum is carried out to the highest standards possible.

I am particularly pleased that the agreement opens the way to the franchise for 16 and 17-year-olds. That is not a new proposal; I was pleased to make my maiden speech in the House in 2001 on this very subject. Many of us, from across the parties, have a long-standing commitment to 16 and 17-year-olds being able to vote, and I am pleased that they will be able to do so. It is absolutely correct that every endeavour should be made to ensure that everybody who should be enfranchised is able to cast their vote.

Perhaps surprisingly, I would like to pay tribute to the UK Government. I pay tribute to the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Scotland, the Minister of State in the Scotland Office and their colleagues across government. Again perhaps surprisingly, I also pay tribute to the Labour Front-Bench team and the Opposition, both here and in the Scottish Parliament. I do so for the part they have all played in getting us this far. No doubt, the questions that have been raised will be pursued after the section 30 order is passed, and that is a good thing. We should all be proud to have reached this stage, and the House will not be surprised that SNP Members express our thanks to the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and Bruce Crawford MSP for the leading parts they have played in securing the Edinburgh agreement.

Soon, all the procedural issues flowing from the section 30 order will be resolved in the Scottish Parliament and we can have the full debate on the proposition that Scotland should again become a sovereign nation.

[Margaret Curran]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his warm tribute; I did not anticipate saying that, but I appreciate the tribute. May I ask him to clarify something? As I understand it, the logic of what he is explaining is that it is now for the Scottish Parliament to answer the issues of substance that have been raised today. However, it is reasonable for me, as a Scottish person and as an elected Member representing Scots, to ask him whether he thinks it is reasonable to ask the Scottish Government now to clarify that they will respect and adhere to the recommendation of the Electoral Commission. May I have a direct answer on that?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. May I just remind all Members participating in this debate, including the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson), that, tempting as it is to talk to each other, they are supposed to be addressing the entire Chamber by addressing the Chair? That means not having one’s back to the Chair when speaking.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Davidson]

Indeed. These are anomalies and the Scottish Parliament has to show its maturity by being prepared to tackle them. There are no ideal answers in these circumstances. We must recognise that many of these issues are difficult and I will return to some of them, if I can.

The first issue that we want to tackle is that of 16 and 17-year-olds. This is properly an issue for the Scottish Parliament to handle. However, it is essential that the Scottish Parliament makes sure that if 16 and 17-year-olds are able to vote, they all are on the register. I recognise that there will be organisational difficulties. Administratively, the problems will be extreme. I am not entirely clear how we are going to avoid a situation where, potentially, 14-year-olds are registered.

[Margaret Curran]

I note that the Chair of the Scottish Affairs Committee is reporting to the Chamber the findings of the Committee, which has gained much respect for the work that it has undertaken. Does my hon. Friend share my disappointment that we are listening to him without the presence of any SNP Members to hear him? That is disrespectful to the Committee.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. With respect to the hon. Lady, it is entirely up to hon. Members to decide which speeches they listen to, if they are not waiting to speak. Members in the Chamber may draw their own conclusions, but it is not a matter of order.

Oral Answers to Questions

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. The benefits issue is an example of where, simply to curry favour with the electorate, the SNP Scottish Government are making promises that they could not possibly keep in an independent Scotland.

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

Will the Minister tell the House how many members of the armed forces in Scotland will see their incomes cut as a result of last night’s vote?

[David Mundell]

Last night’s vote was about ensuring that we have a sustainable welfare system. The hon. Lady’s answer on all these issues is more borrowing, more spending and more debt. She cannot say how she would fund the rises in benefit for which she voted.

[Margaret Curran]

What a disappointing answer. The answer is 4,000 members of the armed forces. There might be a Liberal Democrat leading the Scotland Office, but Scots can see that this Government are just the same old Tories. In 2010, the Department told us that it had

“absolutely no desire to see people losing their jobs or being in worse circumstances than they were in before”.

Will the Minister explain why the Government are failing the test that they set themselves?

[David Mundell]

What the people of Scotland know is that it is the same old Labour: there is no apology for the mess that it left the economy in and its only proposal is more spending, more borrowing and more debt.

Scotland and the Union

Margaret Curran Excerpts

Thursday 29th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab)]

Let me begin by paying tribute to the members of the Backbench Business Committee, and thanking them for enabling us to debate this important matter. We have had an excellent debate. I particularly appreciated the speech of the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), which demonstrated the warmth that Scots encounter throughout the rest of the United Kingdom, and the powerful speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice), who advanced clear economic arguments to demonstrate why Scotland works well when partnered with other nations in the UK.

On the eve of St Andrew’s day, it is important for us to bear in mind that the UK Parliament is Scotland’s Parliament too. We have an opportunity to recognise the best that we have in Scotland and celebrate it, to pay tribute to our public sector service workers, and to appreciate the industry and effort that make Scotland so great in the cities of Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen and, of course, many other places.

We should also be pleased that Scotland is performing so significantly in the arts, in which I have a particular interest. As Vicky Featherstone leaves the great National Theatre of Scotland that she did so much to establish and goes to the Royal Court theatre, we mourn her loss and remember the contribution that she has made, but we are very proud that she is doing so well in England.

What has been said today has clearly demonstrated the national pride that so many of us have in the great country of Scotland, but it also makes an important point that I hope will be remembered as we continue the debate on the referendum, namely that pride and patriotism in Scotland do not belong to a single political party. The national flag and our other symbols belong to us all. They do not belong to one person, or to one party. I hope that just because some of us disagree with the idea of separation, we will not be attacked for being anti-Scottish, and that such remarks are a thing of the past.

Madam Deputy Presiding Officer—sorry, wrong Parliament! Many apologies, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am about to pay tribute to the work of the Scottish Parliament, which may be why I made that mistake.

Let me begin by paying tribute to the late Member of Parliament for Glasgow, Anniesland, Donald Dewar, the first of Scotland’s First Ministers, who, in his inaugural address to the Parliament, spoke of

“a new voice in the land”,

the voice of a democratic Parliament. Many of us were honoured to serve in that Parliament, which has proved to be very effective and strongly supported by the Scottish people.

However, my argument, and the argument of the Labour party, has been and always will be that we are a party of devolution and believe in the great strength of devolution, but we are not a party of separation. We did not undertake our long, hard fight for devolution because we were obsessed with one constitutional arrangement over another; it was born out of a desire to see our system of government work in a way that would enhance the lives of people in the communities that we served. We saw the areas of life in which a Scottish Parliament could achieve more, but we also understood that, in the tradition of trade unionists and social reformers, the needs of the people could sometimes be met by our working together. A strong Scotland benefits the whole United Kingdom: that is the central theme of today’s debate. We can achieve more together than we can apart.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

The benefits of our remaining together are also demonstrated in the field of research in some of the world-class universities in Scotland. My own constituency contains universities that receive massive amounts of UK funding. That would clearly not be possible if we were separated. The academic sector provides another example of how well we can work together, and how much we would lose through separation.

[Margaret Curran]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. I shall say more about that subject later. I think that many of the institutions that we share would lose a great deal if they were broken up, and academics are now beginning to flag up that concern themselves.

The motion that we are discussing draws attention to the great contribution that Scotland has made to the development of the Union. We can be both proudly Scottish and British. As many Members have pointed out, that was demonstrated during the Olympic and Paralympic games in the summer. We saw clear evidence of a modern, multicultural Britain that forward-looking Scottish people can be part of and proud of. As a small island made up of distinctive nations, we can and should work together to ensure that opportunity is given to everyone.

The institutions we have built up throughout the UK bear testimony to the work that we have undertaken in these islands together. As we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar), the NHS was established by a Welshman, to the benefit of the whole UK. The welfare state was devised and implemented by an Englishman, to the benefit of the whole UK. The Labour party itself was established by a Scotsman working in an English, and then a Welsh, constituency, again—in my view—to the benefit of the whole UK.

There is another form of union that operates throughout Britain and has grown out of shared British experience: the trade union movement of the United Kingdom, which symbolises the act of working together to improve and enhance the rights of working people. On the eve of St Andrew’s day, we should acknowledge all the work of the trade unions in Scotland—along with their friends in Wales and England—to improve the conditions of working people throughout our countries. I would not want to put that at risk as we move towards separation.

Together, we created throughout Britain the institutions that were needed to meet the challenges of the time, from the trade unions to the welfare state to the Scottish Parliament and, indeed, the Welsh and Irish national Assemblies. Now we must again look to the challenges of the modern time, and look at the paths that lie before us. Do we continue with devolution, as a strong Scotland in partnership with the United Kingdom, or do we opt for separation—for pulling away from our allies? The threats posed by the latter option have been described in detail during the debate.

The debate about the future of Scotland is now well under way. If the past few months are anything to go by, it will certainly be a lively debate: the Scottish people will expect nothing less. As things stand, however, we face a raft of unanswered questions about the prospect of separation. I am told that Dundee university called its academic study of independence “Five Million Questions”. Let me focus on just one or two of those questions.

Before a decision is made on the future of Scotland, the Scots making that decision require more detail in the debate. What will separation mean for Scottish mortgages or Scottish interest rates? What will happen to our pensions, and what about our family tax credits? How can we avoid a race to the bottom when it comes to levels of tax, wages and financial support? Those are the real questions that will determine the outcome of the referendum, and which really concern citizens, families, trade unions and businesses. However, I have to say that the SNP has so far failed to confront and failed to answer them.

Scotland has a better future. We are only beginning to see the promise of devolution which Labour Members put into practice, and which we want to see continue and flourish in Scotland. Scotland can be a strong partner, working within a strong United Kingdom. That is the case that we will continue to argue—and make no mistake: if Scots vote for separation, it will be the end of devolution. We will make the case for Britain with passion and energy.

This debate has highlighted the great strength of Scotland and the great strength of the Union, and what has been achieved by that. We have heard the history of how we have shared the risks and rewards, the resources and the opportunities. We must continue to do so in the future. This is not just about the successes of the past; it is about our prospects for the future. A time of increasing interdependence in the world is not a time for narrow nationalism, but a time for us to work better together for a stronger Scotland and a stronger Union.