English Devolution and Community Empowerment Bill (First sitting)

Manuela Perteghella Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 16th September 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Vikki Slade (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)]

I am a member of Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole Council.

[Manuela Perteghella (Stratford-on-Avon) (LD)]

I declare that I used to be a parish councillor and, until March, a district councillor for Stratford-on-Avon.

[David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) (Con)]

As per my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, I am a director of Localis think-tank, which has contributed evidence. I am also a parliamentary vice-president of the Local Government Association and for London Councils, which has also submitted evidence.

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[The Chair]

We are back in public session. I apologise to members of the Committee, our witnesses and members of the public that we have had to relocate because of sound problems. The plan is to add the missed time to the end of the sitting, so we will end later than 11.25 am. We will allocate the correct amount of time to this panel, as a number of members of the Committee would very much like to ask you questions.

[Manuela Perteghella]

Q My question is for Mr Griggs. With the creation of new strategic authorities, there is a real risk that the voice of rural parishes will be subsumed by the priorities of large urban centres. What changes would you like to see to the Bill to make sure that parish and town councils in rural areas have a guaranteed voice within the new structures?

Justin Griggs: That links back to Mr Simmonds’s question on the democratic deficit and moving decision making further away from communities, particularly in rural and sparsely populated areas where unitary authorities will be much further away. The point was made earlier that there will be fewer councils and fewer councillors, and those 100,000 parish councillors will become even more important.

As I explained in my previous answer to the Minister, that relationship can be strengthened in a number of ways, building on the good work that has been done in other parts of the country that have gone through local government reorganisation. That is where our network of county associations has been pivotal in working with principal authorities on their plans for reorganisation, being part of joint implementation teams, and co-designing how new structures and new partnerships can work. Certainly, in places without parish councils, they should be established. As I said earlier, you would need to set them up to give people a voice and an influence on decisions that affect them, and to be true partners with principal authorities.

[The Chair]

I am sorry, but this panel will finish at 10.14 am. Seven more Members want to ask questions, and we have six minutes.

[Manuela Perteghella]

Q I have a quick follow-up. I see that many parish and town councils are capable and eager to take on more responsibilities and deliver services, but I also see that some struggle to recruit enough councillors, especially in rural areas. How should the Bill recognise the different challenges that parish and town councils face with recruitment and building up resources?

Sam Chapman-Allen: There should be more powers in the Bill for councils. They should have more tools, and it should be much more attractive to get involved in local democracy. We should not underestimate or overlook the people who already put themselves forward. The general power of competence, for example, that the Bill provides for strategic authorities is not extended to all councils. Parish and town councils are out of step with the rest of local government. That would be one measure.

There are ways in which the allowances system could encourage more people to come forward and stand for election. It is ludicrous that people with caring responsibilities at parish level are unable to reclaim an allowance to cover caring costs. A number of things, such as remote meetings and strengthening the standards regime, are missing from the Bill. If they were added, they would support local communities and local democracy.

[Maya Ellis]

Q You mentioned how important town and parish councils are, and suggested that you would ideally like to see more parish councils. My question is on the neighbourhood governance proposals in the Bill. What do you make of them? What should they learn from the current structures of the town and parish councils? Based on your earlier comment, do you think that we should not have them, but should be looking at extending parish and town councils?

Justin Griggs: One of the ambitions that the Government set out in the White Paper and the Bill is to simplify local government structures and make them much more consistent. In 92% of England, if you leave your house, the first place where decisions are taken for you is in the stewardship of your park and open spaces, and in the supporting local organisations. You would not have that in many parts of England under local government reorganisation.

Those structures should be set up, and it is very much in keeping with other phases of reorganisation. Cornwall, Shropshire and Northumberland are fully parished. It would very much go with the grain and good practice of what has happened previously. It is really helpful—credit to Sam and many of his members—that many district councils are conducting community governance reviews to take a look at neighbourhood and community governance in their areas, where there is interest and appetite to set up new councils, so that they have a structure and a voice for taking action.

On the ingredients of how neighbourhoods can work, it is really helpful that the Government have set out that they see neighbourhood governance and models such as neighbourhood area committees as not undermining parish and town councils, but recognising their role and how they should be hardwired into representation on those committees. That goes to the heart of how we need to get all tiers of local government—strategic authorities, unitary authorities and parish councils—working collectively to benefit their residents.

Sam Chapman-Allen: It is important that the Secretary of State and Whitehall do not dictate what those local government and neighbourhood arrangements look like. It is for local places, local residents and local councillors—whether town, parish, district, unitary or county councillors—to decide what those types of neighbourhood models look like, bringing everyone together from the voluntary sector to the public sector, and the private sector if required, to deal with the challenges in that place-based locality.

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[Mrs Blundell]

Q I have a question for Ms Riddell about housing. In recent years, there has been an erosion of accountability on local housing association boards, with local authority representation diminished. Should local authority members have a more pronounced, or even statutory, role on those boards to bolster democratic accountability, which might enable them to act as a conduit between the board and local people on the topic of local housing stock?

Catriona Riddell: Yes. I am all for democratic accountability, but we have to make sure that it does not hinder the job that has to be done. There are different ways of working with local councils, rather than necessarily having them sitting on boards. More proactive engagement and co-operation will work better. Local government, generally, is good at that and the strategic authorities are going to have to get really good at that as well. They will have to learn how to engage with local communities, and how to use their democratic representation with the likes of housing associations, and in lots of other activities around housing.

One element of the Bill worries me. The Greater London Authority has been around for 25 years, and it is a massive organisation. It is struggling with its housing role, and a lot of the measures in the Bill around housing will replicate what the GLA has. I worry that even the established strategic authorities are fairly small and they will have to take on a very big role for housing delivery, and specifically for affordable housing. I am concerned that they might be biting off more than they can chew. Some of the housing delivery roles that are expected by the Bill might be a step too far, at least initially.

[Manuela Perteghella]

Q What consideration should be given to local nature recovery strategies when making planning decisions at a strategic level? How might that work in practice?

Catriona Riddell: If we get spatial development strategies right, they should be the ringmasters of sustainable development, as I call them. Their job is to provide spatial articulation for local growth plans, local nature recovery strategies, local transport plans and health strategies—the range of powers, strategies and plans that strategic authorities and local authorities have. SDSs will have to take into account local nature recovery strategy priorities.

The challenge we have is that the local growth plans and local nature recovery strategies are being prepared in advance of SDSs. Of the draft local growth plans that I have seen, there was maybe one that had any spatial content at all, and I think it is similar for local nature recovery strategies, so there will have to be some catch-up. SDSs are there to bring all the different plans and strategies together, to set out what that looks like across a place and to use local plans at a more detailed level. Do not forget that SDSs and local plans are part of the same development plan; they are two parts of a plan for an area, so they have to work together.

[Paul Holmes]

Q I am pleased that you have mentioned the GLA, Ms Riddell, because it relates to a question that I want to ask you both.

Mr Fletcher, you are absolutely right to say that this, as well as local government reorganisation, was not in the governing party’s manifesto. I therefore think that it is right that we try to make the policy work as best we can through scrutiny mechanisms such as this Committee. In London, there are structural and spatial planning powers and business powers that are currently operable and invested in the GLA and the London mayoralty. For example, the GLA has a scrutinising mechanism and a housing role, and the mayor has business retention powers and spatial planning powers.

We have seen housing delivery fall under the current administration in London, and we have seen recent announcements that London is essentially a no-go investment area for many relevant organisations. Given the—I would argue—perceived failure in policy delivery in London, what lessons can we learn when the Government are attempting to replicate a structure in London that is not working elsewhere?

Ion Fletcher: In general terms, it is helpful that London has its London plan and its spatial development strategy. The London plan was also the first to acknowledge the important role of build-to-rent housing—housing developed and managed specifically for rental purposes—and was a pioneer in protecting logistics in industrial space, so it does have those positives.

The other side of the coin is that the London plan, in the view of our members, has become too long and too repetitive of policies that already exist either at a national level or at a local borough level. One of our members recently did some analysis and worked out that you could consolidate or eliminate roughly half the policies in the London plan in the latest iteration, so there is definitely scope for simplification. The lesson I would draw is that the new strategic authority should be focusing on the strategic stuff rather than getting too much into the development control side of things, which ultimately adds uncertainty and cost to the planning process.

Catriona Riddell: I totally agree. The national decision-making policies that will soon come forward will help to strip out a lot of what is in the London plan. The idea behind spatial development strategies—this new model—is that they will be very high-level, they will not be very long, and they certainly will not be the London plan model. There is still a difference in terms of governance and decision making in London, and there still will be after the Bill. The decision making for the spatial development strategy in London—the London plan—sits with the mayor. I think a two-thirds majority of the GLA is needed to overturn that, whereas under the strategic authorities it would be a majority vote in most cases. There is a difference with the mayors under the Bill, and other places will have less power.

One of the challenges for London and many other parts of the country is that the planning system has been overburdened with a lot of red tape and regulation that sits not within planning, but within building control or other regulatory systems. That has been one of the big blockages for the market in London. There is no doubt that that has had a knock-on impact right across the board. Stripping out some of the regulation that does not sit within planning, and making planning simpler, will help. I think the London plan has changed things significantly; in its 25 years, it has shown that it has actually been able to deliver. I do not think that it is the London plan that is the problem; it is the delivery end of things, which the mayor is facing at the moment. That is where the challenge is.

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[The Chair]

Your answer, Mr Whittaker, made me consider whether I should declare that I am an AFC Wimbledon season ticket holder and a member of the Dons Trust.

[Manuela Perteghella]

Q My question is for Mr Whittaker. I have many grassroots sports clubs in my constituency, which provide youth teams, women’s teams and walking football sessions, so they are fundamental to community wellbeing and inspiring the next generation of sports people. That is especially true in rural areas. The new provisions for sporting assets of community value apply to sports grounds with spectator facilities. Should those provisions be extended to include grassroots sports clubs?

Robbie Whittaker: That is a difficult question to answer, because as you go down the size scale of sports clubs, the extent to which they are able to mobilise to take advantage of opportunities is different. However, where people in the local area can do that, there is no reason why the legislation should not be flexible in allowing it to happen. I do think that it is a horses-for-courses thing. One of the things that I have learned through my involvement with the FSA is that no two areas or clubs are alike, and no two sets of local circumstances are necessarily alike. It is an area where the legislation should probably give flexibility without mandating any particular approach.

[Maya Ellis]

Q Building on what you talked about before, in terms of neighbourhood governance, I am interested in what you feel should or could happen if things go wrong. Interestingly, we heard earlier an opinion that parish councils, for example, should be rolled out, whereas the Bill essentially proposes neighbourhood area committees or such like to be in places where they do not currently have town or parish councils. One of the challenges is that there is not a baked-in democracy and accountability in that. I appreciate that you want allowance of local variation and differences, but if things go wrong or sour in the community, as they sometimes do, how do you propose that we bake in some assurances into the Bill?

Nick Plumb: That is a really good question, thank you. I have a couple of points on this. To make clear our starting point, I think we are at a point where there is real distrust in democratic institutions, and a democratic deficit, which I heard other witnesses speak about this morning. We need a dynamic view of accountability—one that, yes, works with existing democratic structures, whether that is at the local authority or parish council level, but also recognises that there are lots of different ways in which people exercise their agency at a neighbourhood level. Often, that might be participation in local groups, charities or community organisations. We did some polling recently that looked at neighbourhood governance options, which found that roughly 57% of people are supportive of councils working with existing community organisations. That drops to 19% when we are talking about new democratic institutions such as parish councils. There is something to think about when it comes to the current state of people’s trust in institutions and how we build on what is already there.

The other side of the accountability question is recognising that there needs to be some oversight of what this neighbourhood governance looks like. One of the things that Power to Change, the We’re Right Here campaign and the Independent Commission on Neighbourhoods have been calling for is an independent commissioner for community power. That would exist to recognise challenges from the community around neighbourhood governance and whether it was working well, responding to people’s queries about whether neighbourhood governance models such as community covenants were being introduced. It would also recognise that if those things were not working well, an independent commissioner could step in and say, “This is not working,” and find a different way. For us, it is about that diversity and recognising that parish councils are great in lots of places, but there is only 40% coverage at the moment across the population of England. In some places, the roll-out of new parishes might be the right thing to do; in others, it will not, so it is about how we work with the messiness of neighbourhood institutions.