European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Louise Ellman Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 14th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Frank Field]

I have to confess to receiving the pamphlet and throwing it in the bin immediately. I never believed that the sort of campaign we fought, with false truths on both sides, enhanced our standing as a political class. Neither did it address the very serious issues of what people thought about their own identity, their community’s identity, their country’s identity and their country’s position in the world, on which we all know that people take different views. The idea that a Government pamphlet was going to help us—dear God!

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

I note that my right hon. Friend qualified his earlier statement, but does he accept that at the last general election, more than 85% of Liverpool, Riverside constituents voted for the Labour candidate, and that 73% of them voted to remain? Does he accept that the people of Liverpool, Riverside have great wisdom, and that that ought to be followed?

[Frank Field]

If I did, it would mean that the voters of Birkenhead did not have wisdom, which is the very opposite of my hon. Friend’s point. I am not going to put my head in that noose.

Merseyside Fire and Rescue Service

Louise Ellman Excerpts

Tuesday 26th January 2016 Westminster Hall

[Margaret Greenwood]

It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone, and I am so pleased to have secured this debate this afternoon on the future of Merseyside fire and rescue service.

I begin by congratulating Merseyside fire and rescue service on its response to the floods right across the north of England this winter. It was able to provide that response because it makes such a positive contribution to national resilience, and I think we would all agree that we would like to see that contribution continue.

Merseyside fire and rescue service has been at the receiving end of severe cuts from central Government since 2011 and it faces further damaging cuts under the current Government. The cuts have led to fire station closures, a reduction in the number of fire engines and the loss of firefighter posts. The situation is a serious one and so I would like to describe these cuts in some detail today.

We all rely on the emergency services to be there should we need them. The work of firefighters is heroic. They enter burning buildings to rescue people who are in extreme peril, and who are terrified, exhausted or unconscious. That is the work that our firefighters do. They are brave people who put their own lives at risk to save the lives of others and I am sure that the Minister himself understands that, because of course he was himself once a firefighter. Firefighters are highly valued public servants.

In Merseyside during 2014-15, there were 582 rescues from all incidents; a rescue was carried out by Merseyside firefighters once every 15 hours. Their value cannot be in doubt. So it is important that we do what we can to ensure that firefighters can carry out their work in as safe an environment as possible. That is the very least that we owe them.

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this very important debate. Does she share my concern that by 2020 there could be a cut of around 41% in the number of Merseyside firefighters in this vital emergency service?

[Margaret Greenwood]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that really important point, which I will return to. She is absolutely right. A cut of 41% in any workforce would add stress, but in an environment such as firefighting the resulting stress would be an unacceptable one to place upon firefighters.

With these points in mind, I will set out the scale of the cuts that the service has suffered since 2011 and their impact. I will then turn to the further cuts that were announced in December last year by the Government, and their implications, and I will ask the Minister to consider what all this means for Merseyside fire and rescue service.

Looking at the cuts from 2011-12 to 2015-16, we see that Merseyside fire and rescue service had a total cut from central Government of 32%, which is a huge and damaging cut. Like other metropolitan authorities, Merseyside relies to a much greater degree on its central Government grant than do county combined authorities such as Buckinghamshire. In 2010-11, Merseyside received 63% of its funding from its Government grant. Clearly, when the Government grant is cut, Merseyside receives a disproportionate cut in overall funding.

From 2011-12 to 2015-16, the cuts resulted in Merseyside fire and rescue service having to make £26 million worth of savings. What that meant on the ground is that we have lost nearly 300 firefighters, which is a cut of 31%; we have lost nearly 150 support staff, fire prevention and protection staff, and management staff, which is a cut of 35%; and we have had a 21% cut in our control staff, whose numbers are down from 42 to 33.

Cuts from central Government have also led to cuts in the number of fire engines on Merseyside, and in this respect the numbers are staggering. Back in 2011, we had 42 fire engines; we now have just 28, which is a cut of 33%. That cut has also led to a cut in the number of fire stations. On Merseyside, we are losing four fire stations as we go down from 26 to 22, which is a cut of 15%.

In my constituency of Wirral West, we currently have two fire stations—one at Upton and the other at West Kirby. Both are due to close and my constituents will no longer have their own fire stations but instead will be reliant on fire engines arriving from a neighbouring constituency. That will lead to longer response times, particularly into West Kirby and Hoylake, which are important urban centres. I am extremely concerned about this situation. Merseyside’s chief fire officer, Dan Stephens, has described the closure of those two stations, to be replaced by one station at Saughall Massie, as “the least worst option”. Clearly, that is not a ringing endorsement. The situation is far from ideal.

The loss of firefighters, fire engines and fire stations has led to an increase in response times across Merseyside over the five-year period from 2011 to 2016. Most notably, the response times of the second fire engine to attend incidents have increased by up to three minutes. That is worrying, because the crew of the first fire engine to arrive at an incident have to assess whether to carry out a search for people or to tackle the blaze. The arrival of the second fire engine is crucial, because with two crews the service can both tackle the blaze and carry out search and rescue. The Minister knows that minutes cost lives in a fire and that any increase in response times increases the risk of loss of life.

--- Later in debate ---

[Margaret Greenwood]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that excellent point, and I absolutely agree with it.

As though all that has happened from 2011-12 to 2015-16 was not enough, there are more cuts to come. The future funding settlement announced as part of the local government funding settlement at the end of last year—on 17 December—has left Merseyside fire and rescue service facing a 41.3% cash reduction in the revenue support grant, which is the grant from central Government, over the period from 2016-17 to 2019-20. That equates to approximately a 50% reduction in real terms. Once business rates are added, Merseyside fire and rescue service will see a cut in cash terms of 16%, or between 22% and 25% in real terms if we take inflation into account. Of course, we have to remember that that those cuts are on top of the cuts that the service has already suffered, meaning total cuts of £11 million over the four years. The cuts that are coming our way are likely to lead to the loss of another 10 fire engines, taking the number down from 28 to 18, and the loss of another four or more fire stations.

The overall impact of the cuts delivered and planned for by the coalition Government and the current Government, between April 2011 and March 2020, will be a 41% reduction in the number of firefighters—a loss of about 400—a 46% reduction in the number of support, fire prevention and management staff, to just under 200, and a 21% cut in control staff, bringing their number down from 42 to 33. We can also expect to see the number of fire engines reduced from 42 to 18—a 43% cut.

[Mrs Ellman]

My hon. Friend is generous in giving way again. Does she agree that it is of great credit to Merseyside fire and rescue service that it has maintained such high standards in the face of the cuts? It would be absolutely wrong for the Government to continue their course of action in the knowledge that there would be a calamity in due course.

[Margaret Greenwood]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. She is absolutely right that it behoves the Government to take the situation extremely seriously.

The combined numbers for the loss of fire stations mean that we would be down from 26 to 18—a 31% cut. The numbers are shocking, and the scale of the cuts dramatic. Frankly, I find it unbelievable that it is possible to cut the number of firefighters by 41% with no increased risk of loss of life.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mike Penning]

In some respects, I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. We have come some way, but I do not think that anyone would say that we have fully come through. For instance, the figure I have for the number of retained firefighters in Merseyside is 25, which is very low. That may be because we are looking at day-manning stations among other things, but the use of retained firefighters is how it is done in many parts of the country. Sadly, that is not the case in London, where there are no retained firefighters, which I find strange. We need to continue to look at that.

I do not have the full figures for Manchester, because the debate is about Merseyside fire and rescue service, so I will have to write to the hon. Member for Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes). My officials were scurrying away behind me to ensure that I had some details, but it is probably better if I write to her. I will say again that I do not recognise some of the figures on the amount of losses. We can all throw figures around, but let us get down to the facts.

Colleagues have talked about the small but significant increase in deaths in Merseyside, and that needs to be addressed. The statistics are always difficult: one death is too many, and one of the first things I said when I took over this responsibility just over three weeks ago was, “Yes, we have reduced deaths nationally enormously, but hundreds of people still die in fires and we need to get that figure down even more.” With the fire service in Merseyside and my specialist teams, I will personally look and ask for analysis as to why that figure has moved.

A couple of comments are very important. I am brand-new into the job. I was a firefighter, but that was a long time ago and the service has changed enormously since then. The one thing that has not changed is that, while we go in one direction, the fire service and other emergency services are going in the other direction, so it is right that we continue to pay tribute to fire services across the country and acknowledge the work that they do and that there have been many changes. In the debate, I was listening carefully about who is manning what and where.

Some colleagues said that their fire station may not open—I refer in particular to the hon. Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn). It might well open if it were a fire and police station. It is difficult to convert a police station into a fire station because the big red trucks do not get into the foyer so well, but we can plan constructively in the community. I always use the analogy that a church is not about buildings; it is about people coming together, and that is what we are talking about with the emergency services.

The reforms we announced today based on the consultation are not top-down but an attempt to move further forward. As chief fire officer Paul Hancock said today, there is a general warmth towards them in the service. This is not about taking one force, putting it under another and undermining it—as a former firefighter, why would I do that? I am trying to ensure that those on the front line have the opportunities and finances there and that we do not waste money in silos with headquarters here and there when they could come together. Why is it that in any part of the country the fire and police headquarters are not in the same building? Why are human resources and procurement not done together?

Since I took over responsibility for the fire service, I have published information on the 43 police authorities in which I listed about 20 average products that they buy for front-line operational use, so that the public can see how much each PCC and chief constable is spending on that equipment. The variation is enormous. For instance, on a type of approved body armour, there was a £300 difference between one piece of kit and another. On batons, the figure was about £80. I intend to do similarly for the fire service. I am not telling anyone that they should go to a specific organisation to buy their equipment, but I think the public should know what is being spent and how it is being spent. In vehicle procurement, the fire service should be part of the e-auctions process to ensure that taxpayers’ money is spent correctly.

[Mrs Ellman]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mike Penning]

I will give way in a second, but I want to make a tiny bit of progress.

The equipment has changed dramatically from when I was in the fire service. We need to look carefully at the equipment we have for the 21st century. For instance, when I was in Lancashire, six fire appliances were sadly damaged due to the flood. Their crews watched the Army vehicles go through. Squaddies will drive through anything, but their vehicles are adapted to go through it, whereas six of the fire appliances got trapped in the water, went off the road straight away and were quite seriously damaged. The engines were damaged as well. We need to look at the manufacturers to make sure we have the right equipment.

Motor Insurance (Whiplash)

Louise Ellman Excerpts

Thursday 7th November 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I am pleased to have the opportunity to debate the Transport Committee’s recent report on whiplash claims. It is the third report that we have produced on the cost of motor insurance since the 2010 election. Our work in the area started because of complaints about rising motor insurance premiums. In April 2012, the average quoted premium reached more than £1,100 and the premiums paid by young men and women were particularly high, at more than £2,000 for men aged between 17 and 24 years old. Although premiums have fallen recently in cost, they remain high, particularly for young drivers.

Many people need to use a car to get to work, to college, to hospital appointments or to visit family and friends. Public transport is not always available for such journeys, particularly outside towns and cities. The high cost of motor insurance can prevent people from owning a car, seriously affecting their work lives, education or social activities. It can also encourage people to drive without insurance or to commit other forms of fraud. The high cost of motor insurance is also a factor in the cost of living squeeze, which affects households across the land. Our reports have shown that there are a number of factors that influence the cost of motor insurance, including the high accident rates for young drivers, organised fraud, the merry-go-round of referral fees, uninsured driving, cold calling and the growth in whiplash claims. We have pursued all those issues, and most of them are being addressed.

We have repeatedly asked the Government to do more to improve the safety of young drivers—in particular, by making the driving test more rigorous or by introducing graduated licensing. It is appalling that 27% of 17 to 19-year-old males are involved in collisions within a year of passing their test. In 2011, 148 young drivers died. I look forward to the Government’s Green Paper on the issue, which is due soon.

The Competition Commission is examining possible anti-competitive practices by insurers on the cost of car hire and car repair, and I will be interested to see its recommendations and the Government’s response in due course.

[Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)]

Does the hon. Lady agree that more could be done in schools? Teaching “The Highway Code” is not a compulsory part of the curriculum and what is taught from school to school is patchy. We could do more to educate young people about the dangers on public highways.

[Mrs Ellman]

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. Young people’s attitudes before they are behind the wheel should be addressed as well. That might be done in schools or in after-school clubs.

Another area of concern that we identified, which is within the Minister’s remit, relates to the activities of claims management companies and, in particular, cold calling. We are told that cold calling is illegal, but the problem seems to be growing. We have all received phone calls or text messages urging us to make a claim because of an assumed or real recent accident. What action is being taken to clamp down on cold callers? Have any firms been prosecuted?

In our most recent report, we looked at another factor that explains the rise in the cost of motor insurance: claims for whiplash injuries. A whiplash injury is a soft tissue injury to the neck caused by a sudden, forceful jerk, such as can be caused by a road accident. Symptoms can last for a few weeks or months. In a minority of cases, symptoms can last for longer, especially if exacerbated by a pre-existing condition. There is no generally accepted test for a whiplash injury. They do not show up on X-rays or MRI scans. However, the medical evidence that we received confirmed that the injuries are real and can have debilitating consequences for those who suffer from them. There are about 500,000 motor insurance claims for compensation arising from whiplash injuries each year, although the number is coming down.

The official figures on road safety show a welcome reduction in the number of people killed or seriously injured. In 2012, there were a total of 195,723 casualties in all the road accidents reported to the police, which was 4% lower than in 2011. Some 1,754 people were killed—an 8% decrease from 2011—and 23,039 were seriously injured, down 0.4% from the previous year. Those reductions are welcome, but every individual serious accident is a tragedy for the individual and the family concerned. It is not clear, however, exactly how the number of claims relates to the number of accidents, as the statistics on road traffic accidents are not comprehensive. There is widespread agreement that a significant proportion of the claims are fraudulent or exaggerated, but there is no authoritative data, perhaps because of the very nature of the issue. The Government are right to be looking seriously at the problem.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the reasons why the cost of motor insurance has gone up is that insurance companies have irresponsibly paid out claims without any evidence that the person is suffering from whiplash?

[Mrs Ellman]

I fully agree with my hon. Friend. Indeed, I will shortly refer to that issue.

The Government proposed whiplash claims of up to £5,000, which would cover most of them, should be dealt with in court by using the small claims track. That approach was strongly backed by insurers, but rejected by most solicitors. The Transport Committee opposed that change, because many people who use the small claims track would have to represent themselves, and we thought that that would impair access to justice, especially as insurers would, of course, be legally represented. It was also not clear how expert evidence would be accommodated in the system. I am pleased that the Government accepted those arguments and rejected making that change at present.

We recommended the accreditation of independent medical practitioners to provide medical reports on whiplash claims. There have been claims that reports are of variable quality and that the doctors who issue them are not up to date with current requirements or are sometimes biased towards the claimant. I am pleased that the Government have accepted the recommendation in principle, although they have stated that they will enter into further discussion on implementing it.

We did, however, ask a number of other questions that have not yet been answered. For example, is there a role for existing regulatory bodies, such as the General Medical Council, in auditing or peer reviewing reports or dealing with complaints? Should practitioners who prepare reports be provided with information about the accident and the claimant’s medical record? We have written to the Ministry of Justice about those issues, but I welcome answers today if the Minister can give them.

We were disturbed to find that insurers frequently offer to settle claims before any medical evidence is submitted. My hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) made that point. It would be hard to imagine a clearer incentive to making a fraudulent claim. The Government have said that they will consider prohibiting the practice. Can the Minister tell us what work is being done on that and whether it requires legislation?

We also recommended that the Government look at ways to make whiplash claimants provide additional information at the time of their claim, such as proof that they saw a medical practitioner shortly after their accident. Will the Minister give us his view on that? Will he also comment on the debate arising from the Summers case about whether the courts can strike out claims where exaggeration is proven, but where there has also been a genuine injury?

Those complex issues have been created by the dysfunctional motor insurance market. It cannot be good practice for insurers to settle whiplash claims without medical evidence. It is unacceptable that ways are still found for insurers, solicitors, doctors, garages, car hire firms and others in this merry-go-round to make money out of claims, often by inflating the work necessary to address them. For years, insurers have found ways to increase the costs paid by their rivals, and the result has been higher premiums for the ordinary motorist.

[Sir Greg Knight]

The hon. Lady’s Committee has produced an excellent report. Will she say something about the limitation period? At the moment, someone who suffers personal injury has three years within which to bring proceedings to a court. Does the hon. Lady agree that there is a strong argument for reducing that limitation period?

[Mrs Ellman]

I agree. Indeed, the Committee recommended a reduced period, but it appears that the Government response to the consultation and our report rejected that. That is an important point, and I would be interested to hear any comments the Minister can make about it.

I thank the Government for responding to our various reports and for accepting many of our recommendations, but there is more to be done. That includes effective working between a number of different bodies, including the Ministry of Justice, the Department for Transport, the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency and the Department of Health, as was agreed in the debate that we held in November 2011. Will the Minister explain what cross-departmental arrangements currently exist?

It is important for recommendations such as those from the Transport Committee to be based on evidence from all the interested parties. It was a mistake for the Government to listen only to the insurers at the summit that they held in February 2012, which excluded the views of those who represent the genuinely injured; indeed, as we pursue the issue of fraudulent claims, we must never forget the rights of genuinely injured people to compensation. The decision not to pursue the small claims track proposal shows that the Government’s summit, with its concentration solely on the insurers, was in fact a misjudgment.

Now that the Government have acted on whiplash, will the insurance companies be held to their promise to reduce motor insurance premiums? How will that be monitored? That promise was made at the summit the Government held at No. 10. When the Transport Committee asked the insurers who appeared before it about that promise, they said it had, indeed, been made. Will it be honoured? How will it be monitored?

We will continue to pay close attention to the cost of motor insurance, and we intend to report again early next year on the action that the Government are taking. Fraud and exaggeration should be minimised, but access to justice for the genuine claimant should not be impeded. Motorists want better-value car insurance and confidence that the system treats them fairly, as well as fair compensation if they are genuinely injured. We want to help that become a reality.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Ellman]

I thank the Minister for his reply. It was indeed very helpful of the Government to decide to give a joint answer to the general consultation and the Transport Committee’s report, and some of the decisions that the Government made reflect the wealth of evidence that we were able to provide in our report. However, a number of issues remain outstanding.

I was encouraged to hear the Minister say that he would consult further with all stakeholders. I hope that does indeed mean all stakeholders, and not singling out insurance companies as having some special preference. When debating this issue, it is important to remember that although we wish to root out fraud, we also want to protect the genuine claimant, and where insurance companies have promised to reduce their premiums, we must make sure that they do so without jeopardising the rights of those who are genuinely injured. I look forward to the Committee continuing its work on the subject. We will still seek answers to the specific questions that I put during the debate, but I thank the Government for their response to our report.

Question put and agreed to.

North Liverpool Community Justice Centre

Louise Ellman Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter.

When the North Liverpool community justice centre was opened in 2005, it was designed to be an innovative court and community resource, learning from the Red Hook community justice centre in New York. The centre serves the deprived area of north Liverpool, including Kirkdale, Anfield, Everton and County. The area has strong communities that face severe challenges, and there are many vulnerable people. Half the children in Kirkdale live in poverty. Male life expectancy is 72, which is 13 years less than in Kensington and Chelsea; women’s life expectancy is 76, which is 14 years less than in Kensington and Chelsea.

North Liverpool community justice centre has pioneered new approaches to offending. Restorative justice, conditional cautions and judicial oversight are distinguishing features of the centre’s work. They enable the court to consider individual circumstances, to relate crimes to those who have suffered from them and to consider the impact on the community. Key criminal justice agencies, including the police, probation, Crown Prosecution Service and youth offending teams, are co-located in the centre.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair)]

We will gently get under way again. We were very much enjoying Mrs Louise Ellman’s speech.

[Mrs Ellman]

Thank you, Mr Streeter. The co-location of key criminal justice agencies in the centre—the police, probation, Crown Prosecution Service and youth offending teams—is an important part of its approach, but there is more. Crucial support services—dealing with, for example, drugs, debt, financial problems generally, victim and witness support and antisocial behaviour—all working together are critical, as is vital family support. It is a uniquely holistic service.

The centre has been privileged to be served by two outstanding judges with their colleagues—his honour Judge Fletcher, and from December 2012, Judge Clancy. The writing has been on the wall for some time, before the Government’s hasty consultation on closure, which took place in six rushed weeks over the summer recess. The answer to my parliamentary question about the issue on 9 September showed that the centre’s fate was sealed, and the Government have now announced that it is to close.

The reasoning on which the closure is based fails in two fundamental respects. The Government’s key argument is that the cost of the centre does not justify its continuation. First, the Government’s claim that it has failed to address crime successfully is deeply flawed. Crime rates in north Liverpool, which is the area covered by the centre, fell by 7.2% between 2005 and 2010—much more than elsewhere in Liverpool, and much more than elsewhere across the country. It must be remembered that the centre hears a high proportion of serious crimes. Some 88.1% of cases involve violence against the person, while the national average for cases of that sort is 47.8%. That makes its success even more notable. Its important work in addressing antisocial behaviour—a demand of the local community to address that—is simply ignored in the assessment. That work is vital to the community, yet it does not feature in the judgment on the centre’s future.

Secondly, and inexplicably, there has been no assessment of the centre’s key aim of conducting preventive work and supporting the community through its inter-agency approach. That failure is incomprehensible, as prevention of crime and supporting the community was a major objective of the centre from the very beginning. Its outstanding work on victim and witness support has resulted in, for example, a 90% to 100% successful conviction rate in cases of domestic violence. However, that outstanding work has been ignored, and I understand that with the centre’s closure, the person who has been doing that work—someone who has received national awards for their success—will cease doing it.

[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

As we would normally expect, my hon. Friend is making a very powerful argument on her constituents’ behalf. However, the justice centre also serves constituents in my constituency, and the closure proves the point that the Government understand the cost of everything, but the value of nothing. The Merseyside police and crime commissioner, Jane Kennedy, has described the proposals as “unnecessary vandalism”, and she has suggested that such a cut would make the job of our police force

“more difficult as the reforming work with prolific offenders will lose its focus”.

Does my hon. Friend agree that we will see reoffending rates rising because of the decision?

[Mrs Ellman]

I agree with my hon. Friend. He makes very important points, and his comments have also been made by the mayor of Liverpool, Joe Anderson.

The centre conducts excellent work with young people in schools—it has been involved with 18 schools in the local area—and it works with colleges such as Rotunda college, helping to build the confidence of young people, yet that work is disregarded. Innovative links with mental health services make it a specialist centre, yet that work is simply cast aside. Many offenders suffer mental health problems that need to be addressed. The centre has been doing valuable work in that regard, yet even that is not worthy of assessment. Excellent rehabilitation projects such as the Turnaround project, supporting women, are considered to be unimportant. When I visited that project, I realised how important it was and how much those participating in the project valued it.

The crucial work of the citizens advice bureau, giving vital practical support to vulnerable adults and the community as a whole, is not considered worthy of consideration. The CAB is situated in the centre, and I understand that it will close when the work of the centre comes to an end. That will be a grave loss for the whole community; yet again, it has not been considered.

The failure to assess a key part of the centre’s remit is unacceptable. The Government even have the gall to criticise the centre for reducing its community involvement. That is hardly surprising when the Government themselves have cut funding so much that the community engagement team have been disbanded. The manager left last year and has not been replaced; the deputy is on long-term sick leave; and in the past three months the centre manager and district manager have gone.

What is to happen to these vital services? What assurance can the Minister give me? The North Liverpool community justice centre provides an important facility for the people of north Liverpool. It has a dedicated staff, committed to the local community. Its budget was cut dramatically, from £1.8 million a year in 2005 to £1.3 million a year in 2012, and a further £300,000 reduction was planned.

According to the people I represent, the centre has made a real difference to their lives. Yes, the centre is primarily about the court and reducing offending and it has achieved that, but it is also about working with the local community in this very deprived area, building links and developing community strengths, and people in the community value that. However, the assessment on which the decision to close is based ignores that vital preventive community work and dismisses the significant reduction in crime in the area.

[Steve Rotheram]

rose—

[Steve Rotheram]

Once again, my hon. Friend hits the nail on the head, and she is very generous about giving way. Does she agree with me that the decision to make the announcement on the cusp of the parliamentary recess has meant that the ability to scrutinise the decision fully has not been afforded to local agencies and people who want to keep the centre open?

[Mrs Ellman]

I fully agree with my hon. Friend’s comments. The consultation was carried out during the parliamentary recess. It was rushed. Many people did not have the opportunity to make a response, and many people did not realise that it was in fact taking place. It seems a very curious time in which to carry out a consultation on something as serious as this.

I am convinced that the decision is based on financial considerations, taking advantage of the break in the centre’s lease. We are told that the work will transfer to another court. Will that indeed be the case? What will fill the gap in terms of reducing crime, undertaking vital preventive work and supporting this resilient but deprived community? I hope that the Minister today can provide the answers.

[Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair)]

Before the Minister responds, it might be helpful to know that the sitting must end by 5.27 pm.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Vara]

The hon. Gentleman wants hypothetical answers for the future, but I am not delving into the realms of the future. I will, however, look at the facts as they are—as we have them—and if he disagrees with them, I am happy to give him the sources of my information. I repeat that the services provided at the centre will not be affected in any way—they will only be at a different location, some two miles away, nothing more.

[Mrs Ellman]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Vara]

I would like to make a little progress, but I am happy to give way to the hon. Lady a little later.

The outcome of the consultation is to proceed with plans for closure of the centre, but the consultation response identified two areas in which the original proposals should be revised: youth and educational welfare cases. We have listened to those views and revised the proposal accordingly. Youth and education welfare cases will now be dealt with by the Liverpool youth court and the Liverpool and Knowsley magistrates court, respectively. Again, they are around two miles away—no more.

The points about work load and courtroom utilisation, plus the high running costs of the centre, were set out in the initial consultation document and in the consultation response document published last week. Moreover, the criminal justice agencies have reduced the number of people based at the centre, in line with the decrease in work and to meet their changing operational needs. For example, the Crown Prosecution Service has reduced its presence significantly and is now supporting the centre’s cases in the same way as it would in a mainstream court, as opposed to providing dedicated prosecutors and service levels, as it did previously.

As announced last week, the proposal to transfer the work from the centre to the nearby Sefton magistrates court will now proceed. Sefton has excellent modern facilities and good transport links. It has earned its own reputation for innovation, including a dedicated problem-solving court, and because of its efficient processes it was the first model court—subsequently, beacon office—in what was then known as Her Majesty’s Courts Service. Indeed, Sefton magistrates court’s problem-solving approach is built on the principles of the North Liverpool community justice centre, but is achieved at much lower cost. The principles and ethos of the centre will not be lost; they will be carried on at Sefton.

We have much for which to thank the centre. It pioneered a scheme to improve case management—to the centre’s credit, that scheme is now in place in all magistrates courts in England and Wales, reducing waiting times considerably, with the majority of cases completed within four weeks. The spirit of the North Liverpool community justice centre will move to Sefton, while allowing us to deliver cost savings of £630,000 per year.

[Mr Vara]

There is plenty of capacity at Sefton. It has five courts at the moment, and on any given day, two or three are being used. To the extent that more staff and the like are needed, provision for that has been taken on board. I am confident that the rate of processing cases will continue.

The Government published our consultation response on 22 October 2013. There were 18 responses. Five supported the proposal fully, three were neutral and 10 were opposed in some way to the closure of the centre, the choice of Sefton as the court to receive the centre’s work, or both.

The main issues recognised in support of closure were the financial benefit and the fact that the centre had moved away from its original community-focused role. Those opposed to closure focused on what they perceived as an adverse impact on the provision of justice within the north Liverpool community and raised concerns about youth and mental health cases at Sefton magistrates court. As I have said, we listened to those concerns and have acted accordingly.

Closure of the North Liverpool community justice centre will result in savings of £630,000 a year, whereas maintaining its operation would mean a continuation of costs of £930,000 a year, based on this year’s budget. The proposed savings outweigh any perceived benefits from continuing to operate the centre. That is particularly so given that I have been assured that the ethos and principles developed at the centre will live on at Sefton magistrates court, which itself has a reputation for innovative work, but will provide far greater value for money.

[Mrs Ellman]

Can the Minister give me an absolute assurance that the level of community support, particularly witness and victim support and the critical advice offered by the citizens advice bureau, and the centre’s holistic inter-agency approach will be continued in precisely the same way in those specific areas of north Liverpool?

[Mr Vara]

The hon. Lady asks a good question, but she must be mindful of the fact that even at the north Liverpool centre, some of the other agencies were decreasing the support that they were giving. That is not to say that that may continue at Sefton, but I assure her that as we speak, other co-located agencies are present there, which I hope will continue to deliver services. However, it would be wrong for me to give a promise based on the declining number of people at the original centre.

As set out fully in the consultation response document published last week, it seems clear to me that the case for change is made and the decision taken is the right one. In conclusion—

Female Genital Mutilation

Louise Ellman Excerpts

Tuesday 8th January 2013 Westminster Hall

[Karl Turner]

I agree with the hon. Lady that the authorities need to work more closely together, and to share information with teachers, nurses and GPs. I have spoken to many professionals who avoid the issue either because of the sensitivities or, as was suggested to me recently, because they are struggling with their departmental budgets. They avoid dealing with the matter. The hon. Lady does not seem terribly impressed at that comment, but that point was put to me very recently. The reduction in social services budgets is definitely an issue, because female genital mutilation is not the priority that it should be.

The lack of evidence and witnesses is also an issue. The lack of prosecutions is compounded by many factors. The police are not investigating FGM with enough vigour, as was suggested earlier. It is estimated that of the 20,000 suspected cases some 6,000 will be based in London. The Metropolitan police’s Project Azure was set up to tackle the problem, but a freedom of information request showed that the team consisted of only two police officers—one full-time and one part-time. It is ridiculous to suggest that such policing is sufficient to tackle this shocking issue.

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. Has he considered whether the authorities can work with individuals in the communities involved who are concerned about what is happening? Does he have any views on that?

[Karl Turner]

I do have views, and my hon. Friend makes an excellent point. She has raised the matter in the House on numerous occasions. An issue that follows from that is the obvious lack of data collection. It is accepted that robust data collection and assessment of the problem are urgently needed. A Government equality impact assessment was published last year and stated:

“Lack of data is an ongoing issue in the government’s work to prevent and tackle FGM.”

It will be impossible to tackle the problem without robust systems in place to identify its true level and at-risk children. I am pleased that this is now a priority in the Crown Prosecution Service’s action plan, but the Home Office assessment said that a large-scale community-based study would have a very high cost, and that the Department will continue to examine alternative options and to consider how existing data may capture information about FGM.

Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill

Louise Ellman Excerpts

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Damian Green]

I think we are getting into the realms of speculation about individuals. There is a clear distinction, which I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will recognise, between criminality and pure misconduct. It is clearly difficult to take disciplinary action against someone who is no longer an employee. At the most serious end, many of the Hillsborough cases would potentially involve criminal sanctions, but too detailed speculation on these matters might be unhelpful in the long run, not least to the families and others seeking justice as well as truth.

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

Where there is a need to gather sufficient evidence to decide whether a retired individual should be the subject of an investigation for misconduct or criminality, does the Bill contain sufficient powers to enable that evidence to be gathered?

[Damian Green]

The IPCC already has considerable powers to gather evidence, and it is not the only body involved in these investigations. My right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General is looking at whether to apply to reopen the inquest, so a coroner may be involved as well. There will therefore be thorough investigation, and I would be surprised and disappointed if any avenue of inquiry fell through the cracks. As much as can be done in the investigation is being done and will be done.

The overall point I would like to reassure the House about is that where individuals are suspected of misconduct or criminality, the IPCC has the powers it needs, so clause 1 is solely about its powers relating to witnesses. The power is essential if the IPCC investigation is to maintain public confidence and show that it has left no stone unturned—precisely the point that the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) made. Information from witnesses will ensure that the IPCC investigation has a broad and thorough evidence base.

As we have discussed, the sanctions carry real weight for serving officers. It would not be appropriate to extend that to retired officers at this time. I should perhaps repeat that I fully expect the vast majority of retired officers called as witnesses to attend willingly. The importance of the matters being considered would cause any decent human being to provide whatever assistance they could. However, we want to ensure that the IPCC has the clear statutory basis to be able, independently and authoritatively, to require serving officers who may have useful information for the purposes of the investigation—because they witnessed events—to attend an interview. This power is needed urgently. The IPCC is currently scoping its investigation, but it wants to make rapid progress, and I know that many people inside and outside the House want that as well. It plans to start calling witnesses early in the new year, so this power needs to be available to it by then if the investigation is not to be held up.

Clause 2 will allow the IPCC to investigate matters that were previously subject to investigation by its predecessor, the Police Complaints Authority. This power will be exercised only when the IPCC is satisfied that the exceptional circumstances of a case justify its use. That is a high threshold. The IPCC has made it clear to me that, without this power, certain key events of the Hillsborough disaster would be out of scope of its investigation, as they have previously been considered by the PCA. In particular, the PCA investigated the decisions to open exit gate C at the Leppings Lane end of the Hillsborough ground and not to close the tunnel. Without this additional power, those matters would be out of scope of the IPCC investigation, although it is clear that those two decisions were critical to the events of the day.

So this power is needed, but it needs to be tightly drawn. We need to avoid the prospect of opening up all previous PCA investigations for review. That is why the power provides the IPCC with the discretion to reopen previously investigated cases when the matter meets the test of “exceptional circumstances”. We are confident that that terminology ensures that investigations relating to Hillsborough can be reopened, while also setting a high enough bar to prevent all PCA cases from being subject to another investigation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

A number of hon. Members have already pointed out that it is highly unusual to fast-track an important Bill, but we are dealing with an unusual circumstance and it is essential that this Bill goes through. We are dealing with the aftermath of a terrible tragedy that happened 23 years ago: 96 people died, thousands more were injured or traumatised, there was a cover-up, nobody was brought to book for what happened and, indeed, the victims were blamed for the culpability of others. That cover-up is now unravelling and there is a desire for urgent justice and accountability. That is why we are considering this Bill, but this is only one part of a whole range of actions now being taken speedily and correctly.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission has published its 10-point terms of reference, a number of which demonstrate the relevance of this Bill. The IPCC wants to find out what happened and how 116 witness statements came to be altered in order to remove or lessen the culpability of police and, indeed, others. It wants to consider the validity of the police evidence to the all-important Taylor inquiry. It wants to consider the conduct of the West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire police in relation not just to what happened at the time but to subsequent investigations. It wants to investigate the authorisation given to test the alcohol levels of the victims and to allow access to the police national computer in an attempt to denigrate the victims. The vital issue of what happened on the day and of who took the decision to open the Leppings Lane gate is critical. The culmination of all that was the attempted cover-up—indeed, it was successful—to blame the victims for what happened.

Those are just some of the items specified in the IPCC’s terms of reference. In order for them to be investigated properly, it is essential that the IPCC has adequate powers. It is critical that we discuss the issue and make a decision today so that the new investigation can start quickly. I understand that if we reach an agreement today, the IPCC investigation will be able to start in early 2013.

The Bill addresses two key areas. First, it will enable the IPCC to compel serving officers and their staff to answer its questions as witnesses. The IPCC will be able to consider whether they are guilty of misconduct or, indeed, criminality, but it is also essential that they come forward as witnesses. Secondly—this is also essential—it will allow the IPCC to investigate issues previously investigated by its predecessor, the Police Complaints Authority. Both measures are important.

This debate has already shown that there are question marks over the Bill’s adequacy in respect of those measures. What would happen, for example, if serving officers or their staff did not agree to come forward when requested? Would the disciplinary measures, which have been spelt out this afternoon, be adequate? I do not think that we will know the answer until such an event happens. The issue of calling retired officers or staff is not covered by the Bill, either. There may be other means of doing that, but the situation is extremely unclear. Those are two areas of the Bill that stand out at this stage as either not covered adequately or, in the case of retired officers, not covered at all.

Some of the issues will be addressed when we discuss the amendment in Committee following this Second Reading debate, but it is essential that there is continuing dialogue and that the House is made aware of any progress. We need to know whether the proposals for addressing these matters are valid, and we need an ongoing discussion and up-to-date information, so that if any further steps are required they can be enacted without undue delay.

There is cross-party agreement on what is happening. The Hillsborough independent panel was set up in the last Parliament and its work has been taken forward in this one. There is cross-party agreement on that.

Twenty-three years is a long time to wait for justice. The families deserve no less than truth, justice and accountability. That requires speedy action, but that action must be backed up by sufficient powers to enable the proper information to be considered in a judicial process, if that is what is required. I hope that the Bill will help to achieve that.

It is extremely important that the House is kept informed of progress, including the consequences of this Bill being passed and the question of reopening the inquest—something that will be considered in this place at another time.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Louise Ellman Excerpts

Tuesday 1st November 2011 Commons Chamber

I hope that the Minister can clarify exactly how the regulations are intended to work. Obviously, that would be a matter for the regulator, but I am keen to hear the Government’s intention.

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

I welcome tonight’s discussion about action on referral fees. In March, the Transport Committee produced a report in which we investigated the reasons for the 40% increase in premiums for private motor insurance. We identified referral fees as one of the reasons. The others included cold calling, inflated bills, high accident rates among young people, fraud and uninsured driving. However, I seek clarification on two areas from the Minister, although some of these points have been raised in earlier contributions.

The first issue is the scope of the Government’s proposals. The Committee’s report referred to the merry-go-round of referral fees and identified not only solicitors, but credit hire firms, vehicle repairers, medical experts and management accident firms. I am not clear from the Minister’s explanation of the new clause whether all, or some, of these organisations will be included in the proposals. If we are looking at referral fees as a reason for the greatly increased costs of motor insurance premiums, it is not good enough to look only at solicitors; we have to look at all these other areas as well.

The second area relates to how companies would be prevented from finding ways of avoiding the new legislation. When the Committee conducted its first inquiry on this issue, we received evidence that if referral fees were banned claims management companies would buy solicitors’ practices and, under the plans for alternative business structures, it could be normal for non-legally qualified individuals to do so. On the face of it, it seems that there would be an easy way of avoiding the legislation. I have not heard anything in detail about how that would be addressed. The Minister is correct that he was asked that question when he came before the Committee two weeks ago, but we received no clear explanation of how the issue would be addressed.

Those are the points that I wished to raise tonight. I know that I shall have other opportunities to look more broadly at the rising costs of motor insurance, but tonight, in this debate on action to be taken over referral fees, I ask for further explanation about how the Government’s proposals will deal with those two important points.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Louise Ellman Excerpts

Wednesday 30th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Ann Clwyd]

My right hon. Friend makes a very good point. Indeed, all the human rights organisations, including Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Redress and Justice are opposed to this change in the law.

In Committee, the Minister conceded:

“The problem is not that large numbers of warrants are being issued—the Government are aware of only two”.––[Official Report, Police Reform and Social Responsibility Public Bill Committee, 17 February 2011; c. 682.]

It is incredible that the Government think that that is too many, and that there should be rather fewer. The fact that two arrest warrants have been granted in 10 years should be a matter of concern, not because it is too many but because it is too few.

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

I agree with my right hon. Friend that war crimes and crimes against humanity are horrific, but does she really think it just that an arrest warrant was issued against Tzipi Livni who was here seriously to negotiate peace between Israelis and Palestinians and to save lives?

[Ann Clwyd]

Well, the other reason the Government gave for the change in the law is, I suppose, the real reason, in respect of which my hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head: it is the Tzipi Livni case. The Government, as the Foreign Secretary and the Justice Secretary explained, are changing the law because of an Israeli politician. Changing the law at the request of a foreign Government does not, I would argue, enhance our ability to act as an international peace broker. It does exactly the opposite by undermining our credibility to speak as a country that takes human rights seriously.

Oral Answers to Questions

Louise Ellman Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Jonathan Djanogly)]

It was a competitive contract, and the contracts have now been awarded. It is appropriate to note that the new legal aid contracts for family law were due to commence on 14 October, but that on 30 September the Legal Services Commission lost a judicial review brought about by the Law Society against its recent tender process. The tender was ruled unlawful and the awards quashed, meaning that the Legal Services Commission is unable to proceed with the new family contracts until a fresh process can be undertaken.

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

T2. What action will be taken to ensure that the arrest and prosecution of foreign nationals can be undertaken only by the Crown Prosecution Service and the Metropolitan police?

[Mr Kenneth Clarke]

I will make careful inquiries into what steps are being taken. Obviously foreign nationals should be treated on the same basis as any other residents of this country when it comes to being dealt with via the criminal law. However, if the procedures give rise to some concern, perhaps the hon. Lady would draw the specific problem that troubles her to my attention and that of my team, and we will look into it.