Bus Services (No. 2) Bill [HL]

Lord Snape Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 2nd April 2025 Lords Chamber

I am attracted by the amendments which propose sensible design guidance following assessment and consultation with groups with impaired sight. I can see merit in proposals to persuade local authorities to make changes to those that do not comply when that work has been done. However, to simply abolish them all without a proper assessment, as some of the amendments would do, would surely escalate the risks in the long term, for both pedestrians and cyclists.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, I will intervene briefly, if I may. One group of people involved in these discussions has not been heard from so far, and that is the bus drivers themselves. I have no financial interest to declare these days in these matters, but over the years I have worked either as a consultant, director or chairman for three different bus companies. When you talk to bus drivers about their daily problems, you find that their views about cycle lanes are well worth listening to. Many of them say that they do not open the doors sometimes until they have checked the cycle lane to their nearside mirror.

Although it is not very popular to say so—I do not wish to fall out with my noble friend Lord Berkeley—it is about time someone acknowledged the fact that a substantial number of cyclists on our roads are, quite frankly, maniacs.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I agree.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

I made an exception for my noble friend straight away, because I knew he might react.

Stand on the corner of Parliament Square and watch them. There are cycle lanes and traffic lights, and a substantial number of cyclists ignore the traffic lights—because in their view nothing is coming—and set off around Parliament Square. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Blunkett and the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, on the amendment that we are discussing. We ought to acknowledge the fact that, unless there is some sort of enforcement, as my noble friend suggested, the minority of cyclists who behave in that way will continue to behave like that.

Mention has been made of the cycle lanes and the two bus stops at the other side of Westminster Bridge. Only last week, I happened to be crossing the bridge in the direction of travel towards the House, on the left-hand side, where the cycle lane and the bus stop is, in the opinion of earlier speakers, supposedly the safer of the two. There are Belisha beacons and a zebra crossing by the bus stop—a very small one that crosses the cycle lane. As I crossed one day last week, I had to dodge a cyclist—in fact, there were two of them, pretty close together—who ignored the Belisha beacons and the zebra crossing. I said something to the first one as he passed—I presume the second one was associated with him. He responded, and I do not know exactly what he said, but the second word was “off”. That sort of behaviour is all too predictable for a certain minority of cyclists.

I hope that, when he comes to respond, my noble friend the Minister will acknowledge the very real fears, particularly of those who are partially sighted or blind, and that these problems are real and that it is long past time that we tackle them.

[Baroness Pidgeon (LD)]

My Lords, for those who are listening to this debate, my name is Baroness Pidgeon from the Liberal Democrat Benches.

Accessibility and safety have been strong features of the debate, at Second Reading, in Committee and today. I am pleased that the amendments before the House today would help make progress on floating bus stops. I was struck, by the debate in Committee and from discussions that I have had with visually impaired, blind and disabled campaigners, about the accessibility of the bus network. My Amendment 39 is a new amendment that seeks to ensure that all existing floating bus stops or bus stop bypasses are made safe and accessible within a reasonable period. Unlike the amendments that the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, has spoken to, it does not prohibit all floating bus stops, but it does seek to ensure an assessment of the current state of these types of bus stops and a programme to retrofit stops which do not meet the highest safety and accessibility standards.

Floating bus stops tend to be on busy main roads where cycle lanes have been added. They have been designed to tackle a serious issue of cyclist safety, particularly at the point where buses pull out into the main traffic. I want us to remember why this different design of bus stop was created, with absolutely the right intentions: to help prevent collisions with cyclists, and deaths, on these busy main roads. Clearly, in some locations, as we have discussed today, they have not been designed in a way that keeps everyone safe. Bad designs that mean passengers have to board or disembark a bus from or directly into a cycle lane are not acceptable. We have all seen good examples of this infrastructure—and bad examples.

This amendment seeks more detailed guidance, which would ensure that cyclists were kept safe and that blind, visually impaired and disabled passengers were safe and able to access bus services. I hope that the Minister supports this aim. I have met representative groups and received correspondence from different sides of this debate. One thing that unites everyone is the need to ensure that these types of bus stops are designed to the highest possible standards of safety for all users. This amendment ensures that an assessment of current floating bus stops is carried out within six months and that a retrofit programme is then carried out within 18 months. This is a sensible way forward, which I hope that the House can support. It will ensure progress on this issue, about which we have heard loudly and clearly today.

Since tabling my amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, has tabled his own amendments, which I welcome. They would allow progress in the way that my amendment seeks. Therefore, I would like to hear from the Minister whether the Government are minded to accept the noble Lord’s amendments. What assurance can the Minister give the House that the guidance for floating bus stops will be reviewed at pace for all local authorities, that local authorities will have to review their existing floating bus stops, and that there will be a retrofit programme for those that do not meet the guidance—particularly those that we have heard about so powerfully, where the island is just not wide enough and passengers are forced into the cycle lane simply to use the bus?

This has been a passionate debate from all sides of the House and we will all be listening carefully to the Minister’s response.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will be grateful to the Minister and acknowledge his decision to accept the recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee.

In relation to this group, I gave notice to the Minister that there were two questions I was going to ask him, so that I could hear what he had to say at the Dispatch Box before we decided our attitude to these amendments. He has dealt with the first one already. It is very important that he has stated at the Dispatch Box that the measure is to apply to all local bus services, whether franchised, privately operated or run by a local authority bus company that is directly owned and a subsidiary, and that there is nothing here that discriminates against or disadvantages private bus companies. I have heard what the Minister says and I am grateful and glad to be able to note that.

My second was more in the nature of a question, and it is a very important consideration. We have a bus manufacturing industry in this country. We make quite a lot of buses and we are quite good at it. We employ a reasonable number of people in the manufacture of buses. When all buses are going to be zero emission, what assurances do we have that British industry will be in a position to make zero-emission buses in the numbers required, and that the outcome of this measure will not be a flooding of Britain with Chinese or other buses made overseas, to the detriment of good British jobs and businesses?

Understanding the department’s view on where this path is taking us in relation to manufacturing and employment is increasingly to the fore in the minds of people considering the net-zero journey, if I may call it that. So the views of the Minister and the department on that will be of crucial importance to us.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, does he remember that the biggest bus manufacturer in the United Kingdom for many years was Leyland buses? Does he remember what happened when it asked for a government subvention in order to stay afloat? The company then went bust. So, is it not rather strange that he should now advocate that buses should be made and built in Britain, when the last Conservative Government let our biggest bus operator go to the wall?

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I recall that my childhood was punctuated by almost monthly demands for subventions from Leyland as an operator. They were often granted in exchange for improvements in productivity and manufacturing. Eventually, someone had to stop it—that was the simple fact of the matter. I was in that part of the world not so very long ago. It is sad that Leyland is not manufacturing buses and trucks, but it has left behind it the most splendid museum. I had an extremely enjoyable day looking at the marvellous old buses and lorries that can be found at the site, and I recommend it very much to the noble Lord when he is next there; it is an appropriate legacy. But let us now see what can be done to ensure that government policy allows existing successful businesses to continue and is not set to destroy them.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, can he tell us how he managed to escape from the museum? I am amazed he was not kept in there.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I have now sat down.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Pidgeon (LD)]

My Lords, I want to speak to Amendment 60, which would introduce a £2 bus fare cap, subject to periodic review. The Government’s official evaluation of the first 10 months of the £2 cap showed a 5% increase in bus patronage outside London, out of a 13% total increase in the period. However, their own survey data implies a stronger effect: some 40% of people said they took more bus journeys when the cap was in place, and 90% of those taking more bus journeys said it was because of the fare cap. In Transport Focus’s research, 80% said it helped with the cost of living and 40% said their bus journeys were replacing those they would have made by car, so awareness of the policy and support for it are high.

The increase in the bus fare cap from £2 to £3 has created real barriers for passengers, particularly those on low incomes who rely on buses to go about their everyday lives. Do not just take my word for it; the DfT’s own bus fare statistics, published just last week, show a 4.1% rise in the cost of bus fares outside London between December 2023 and December 2024. This legislation is about improving bus services and enabling local authorities to have the choice about how local services are provided, but unless there are affordable bus fares, there is a huge hole in this plan.

This amendment would allow for a £2 bus fare cap scheme to be set up and priority access to funds for those authorities that opted in to this scheme. Affordable fares, alongside franchising and enhanced partnerships, will truly ensure that our bus services properly serve our local communities. The Official Opposition last week told this House that the Conservative manifesto pledged to keep the £2 bus fare cap. It will be interesting to see this evening whether their words are genuine, but I hope Members across this House will support our amendment.

I want also to add our support for Amendment 57, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, to implement a Vision Zero programme for buses to improve safety in the sector. I look forward to the response of the Minister to the issues raised in this group.

[Lord Snape (Lab)]

My Lords, I will respond to the contribution from the noble Baroness, Lady Pidgeon, who made a similar speech—in fact, almost exactly the same speech—in Committee. If you are on the fringes of government or in opposition, it is easy to demand reductions, whether of bus fares or something else. In my experience, the Liberal Democrats have made a virtue of such behaviour over many years.

I recollect that the Liberals were in government, along with the Conservative Party, from 2010 to 2015. Did they introduce a £2 or even a £3 maximum bus fare in those years? No, they did not. In fact, government statistics indicate that, every year between 2010 and 2015, bus fares went up by an average of 3.8%. Under the Conservative and Liberal Administration, bus fares increased in real terms by almost 20% over five years. Of course, the Liberals are not in government anymore, so it is easy for the noble Baroness to sit there and demand reductions from £3 to £2.