Estates of Deceased Persons (Forfeiture Rule and Law of Succession) Bill

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dobbs]

I beg the noble Lord’s pardon but some of us still have something to say on this. I hope that he will indulge us. You were talking about sunsets and sunset of course is, as we have heard, the time before darkness descends, a time when hobgoblins and wicked elves come out to play—or stand up at the Dispatch Box. On Monday the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, in one of his passionate interventions, suggested that:

“We are not wrecking this Bill; we are trying to improve it”.—[Official Report, 13/06/11; col. 582.]

I trust that he will not be standing up this evening to say the same thing or, if he does, I hope he has a different scriptwriter. This amendment is clearly designed to wreck this Bill, to cast it into darkness.

A sunset clause is a wholly inappropriate tool for such a mighty matter. It is like promising to love a woman faithfully for this night and for all nights, but then wanting a review after the weekend. I have never found that much of a basis for a healthy romantic relationship. This amendment once again is an attempt to duck and dodge the will of the people. That is not much of a basis for a healthy political relationship, either.

It has become clear in these debates that the usual suspects have little trust in the people. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, as good as admitted it just a moment ago. But now they go even further—they do not want to trust this Mother of Parliaments either. They want to bind her hands, throw her into the sea, watch her float off into the sunset and disappear. They have made great cause in these debates around the proposition that Parliament must decide, and I must admit that I have some sympathy with their position. They have argued their case with passion, but they have failed to argue it with consistency. It is clear that they are promoting the sunset clause because they do not want this Parliament to decide, any more than they want the people to decide.

The amendment is not only bizarre but unnecessary. There is an alternative, of course, which would cover every one of the arguments put forward by those supporting it. It is simple: campaign at the next election to repeal the Act, campaign on a platform that the powers given to the people should be taken back, fight on that basis, win the election and do it. Then we could all go back to counting flocks of phantom sheep and dumping tens of thousands of tonnes of fish back into the sea—problem solved. To achieve that, they do not have to persuade this Parliament but simply their own party. However, I sense that that will not happen, and I suspect that we all know why. Even if they managed to persuade their party, they fear that they would never be able to persuade the people.

I am surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, objects to the amendment. If it is passed, it will turn our general elections on their head. It will drench them in one issue: do you want to continue to have your say on Europe or not? I know that the noble Lord is a modest and moderate man, but I cannot understand why he is not jumping to his feet in excitement at the prospect. It would hand him exactly the election tool that he wants.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

The noble Lord, Lord Pearson, is also a bear of remarkably small brain. The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, has made a very good point, and I may well vote in favour of the amendment.

[Lord Dobbs]

I ask the noble Lord to consider carefully at this point. A sunset clause is like a great sulk. It is like retiring to our castles after the battle is lost and pulling up the drawbridge. The world is not like that any more—although, gazing along these Benches, I see that there may be one or two noble exceptions with castles and drawbridges. Our duty today in this place is clear. We are here not to indulge our own interests, but to serve the people. I mentioned that great film “Casablanca” on Monday. There comes a point in the film, after the usual suspects have been rounded up—it is the most important point of the film—and as the plane is waiting to take off, when Bogart turns to Bergman and reminds her that there is a bigger game to play that overrides their own interests, and that if they fail to recognise that, they will come to regret it: maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of their lives. There is a higher cause here—a bigger game to play. It is the future of the European Union. It is in question as never before and only the people can rescue that future. That is what this Bill is all about: giving the EU back to the people.

It is also much more than that, for in a sense it is not about Europe but about us and about this country. It is not about little England but about the great British people—about how we govern ourselves and how we show the people, at last, that we give a damn about what they think. The principle of placing our trust in the people is something that is eternal and indivisible. It is not just for a few days or for a single Parliament—and most certainly not for the convenience of politicians who have failed to carry the argument. We have a duty to listen to ordinary men and women of great common sense. If we do not—if we refuse—we deserve to be thrown on that rubbish tip that Mr Clegg is even now preparing for us.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I was amazed that the name of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, is not on the amendment. I was also surprised at the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, who is well known throughout the country as a very wise head. However, the effect of the amendment, and the idea of a sunset clause, would be to give those who want to sever any relationship between this country and the European Union an opportunity at least every five years to have a platform with a specific objective in mind and to achieve it. That would be unwise. I am not sure whether anybody in the Chamber has not made up their mind on the Bill, but I will assume that one or two noble Lords are subject to persuasion. There could be nothing less attractive for somebody who believes in European Union than putting in a sunset clause. It would turn every election into a referendum on the European Union. Nothing would do more damage to the European cause because everybody would come out of the woodwork to oppose it and to run single-issue campaigns. We know that they work, because campaigners for hospitals, and environmental campaigners, have won seats in different countries. Single-issue elections are the most dangerous type, and I fear that we would open up a Pandora's box. Those who passionately oppose the Bill are shooting themselves in the foot with this amendment.

The noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, made the point that he had seen the Irish constitution in action. The Irish are very proud of their constitution. The Irish Government accepted, after the first referendum on the Lisbon treaty, that they had provided an overcomplicated form of information to the people, and subsequently corrected this at the next referendum. Nevertheless, people are still passionately in favour of their constitutional rights. If one goes to anybody in the Republic and says, “This is too complicated—the Government put forward all this stuff and we could not understand it because it referred to treaties and articles”, and then asks them whether they want to retain the right to have the final say, they will say yes. Even though there is a complication in a referendum on a single issue—it can be very difficult—the people in the Republic passionately believe in their right to choose. You would not find anybody in the political establishment in Dublin who would challenge that.