Estates of Deceased Persons (Forfeiture Rule and Law of Succession) Bill

Lord Empey Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dobbs]

I ask the noble Lord to consider carefully at this point. A sunset clause is like a great sulk. It is like retiring to our castles after the battle is lost and pulling up the drawbridge. The world is not like that any more—although, gazing along these Benches, I see that there may be one or two noble exceptions with castles and drawbridges. Our duty today in this place is clear. We are here not to indulge our own interests, but to serve the people. I mentioned that great film “Casablanca” on Monday. There comes a point in the film, after the usual suspects have been rounded up—it is the most important point of the film—and as the plane is waiting to take off, when Bogart turns to Bergman and reminds her that there is a bigger game to play that overrides their own interests, and that if they fail to recognise that, they will come to regret it: maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of their lives. There is a higher cause here—a bigger game to play. It is the future of the European Union. It is in question as never before and only the people can rescue that future. That is what this Bill is all about: giving the EU back to the people.

It is also much more than that, for in a sense it is not about Europe but about us and about this country. It is not about little England but about the great British people—about how we govern ourselves and how we show the people, at last, that we give a damn about what they think. The principle of placing our trust in the people is something that is eternal and indivisible. It is not just for a few days or for a single Parliament—and most certainly not for the convenience of politicians who have failed to carry the argument. We have a duty to listen to ordinary men and women of great common sense. If we do not—if we refuse—we deserve to be thrown on that rubbish tip that Mr Clegg is even now preparing for us.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I was amazed that the name of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, is not on the amendment. I was also surprised at the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, who is well known throughout the country as a very wise head. However, the effect of the amendment, and the idea of a sunset clause, would be to give those who want to sever any relationship between this country and the European Union an opportunity at least every five years to have a platform with a specific objective in mind and to achieve it. That would be unwise. I am not sure whether anybody in the Chamber has not made up their mind on the Bill, but I will assume that one or two noble Lords are subject to persuasion. There could be nothing less attractive for somebody who believes in European Union than putting in a sunset clause. It would turn every election into a referendum on the European Union. Nothing would do more damage to the European cause because everybody would come out of the woodwork to oppose it and to run single-issue campaigns. We know that they work, because campaigners for hospitals, and environmental campaigners, have won seats in different countries. Single-issue elections are the most dangerous type, and I fear that we would open up a Pandora's box. Those who passionately oppose the Bill are shooting themselves in the foot with this amendment.

The noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, made the point that he had seen the Irish constitution in action. The Irish are very proud of their constitution. The Irish Government accepted, after the first referendum on the Lisbon treaty, that they had provided an overcomplicated form of information to the people, and subsequently corrected this at the next referendum. Nevertheless, people are still passionately in favour of their constitutional rights. If one goes to anybody in the Republic and says, “This is too complicated—the Government put forward all this stuff and we could not understand it because it referred to treaties and articles”, and then asks them whether they want to retain the right to have the final say, they will say yes. Even though there is a complication in a referendum on a single issue—it can be very difficult—the people in the Republic passionately believe in their right to choose. You would not find anybody in the political establishment in Dublin who would challenge that.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

The noble Lord has the advantage of coming from the northern part of the island of Ireland. As I said, I have the advantage of having lived in the southern part for many years as a blow-in. Is he aware of the fact that the reason that the constitution has been interpreted to apply so indiscriminately to so many referenda is not that the Irish people decided that but that a very narrow majority of the Supreme Court of Ireland so decided, against the powerful dissents of others? In other words, it was a curious judicial decision and not a popular one.

[Lord Empey]

I take the point that the noble Lord makes. However, he will also know that if there was any groundswell of opinion to change the constitution, proposals would come forward in the Dàil for that to occur. I know of no current or recent Member of that Parliament who would stand up on a platform to advocate it. While the noble Lord is no doubt correct in his judicial interpretation, there is no support in the Republic for removing the right of the Irish people to make decisions on these issues.

The underlying danger of the proposed new clause goes back to the reason why we have the Bill in the first place. It is the “we know best” syndrome: in other words, in both Houses of Parliament, we know best. In many cases that may be true: I believe in parliamentary democracy. However, the reason that we are in this position is that the usage of that right to represent the people has resulted over time in a breakdown in their confidence in the decisions of Parliament on this subject. That is why, as I understand it, the Government are putting forward a proposal which they hope over time will bring a resurgence in that confidence. Noble Lords have suggested reviews. Perhaps, in time, if that confidence is restored, such measures may no longer be required. It is a response to a particular set of circumstances that we face today.

I do not wish to put words into the mouth of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, or to apply a motive to what he said or to his proposal, but this is effectively a kill-the-Bill amendment. The Bill would be better not passed than passed with this clause in it. What we are actually saying to the public is, nod-nod, wink-wink, “We’ve found a way round this. By the time we get to the next general election, we’ll be able to tear it up again and go back to our old ways”. That would further undermine people’s confidence that we are listening to them and taking this issue seriously. Therefore, I see this as a kill-the-Bill amendment, and I sincerely hope that we do not include it because it will affect every subsequent election. We would open Pandora’s Box. Let us suppose that Brussels, as it is perfectly capable of doing, comes out with a proposal a few weeks before the election requiring us to have straight bananas or something stupid. It could turn the election into a referendum on Europe. Everybody who believes in the European Union, and many here are clearly passionate about it, would not be serving their cause. I hope under these circumstances we will vote not content on this amendment.

[Lord Low of Dalston]

I have not taken part in these debates, which have been going on for a considerable time, but I have been listening with great interest to the speeches that have been made in this debate. The noble Lord made a very seductive argument against this amendment when he said that if we were to pass it, it would make continued membership of the European Union a cause célèbre at every general election. I wonder whether that is right. There was a proposal to bring in legislation of this kind in the Conservative Party’s manifesto at the last general election, but not, I think, in the manifesto of the Liberal Democrats, but I am not aware that membership of the European Union was a major topic during that election. I do not think it featured in any of the television debates. Having initially thought that this was a very seductive argument against this amendment, on thinking it over, I am not quite so sure that it is.

[Lord Empey]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. While it was not an issue of huge significance at the last general election, if you put this into the statute book, at the beginning of every Parliament, this issue would be one of the first items on the agenda. It would have to be, otherwise, as the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, said, nobody in Europe would know where the United Kingdom stood. If you put it into law that this must happen at the very start of every Parliament, I assure the noble Lord that it will become an issue. If that is so, why should we take the risk, even if he is right and I am wrong, because the next Parliament can do what it likes anyway?

[Lord Dykes]

It is unusual, and I find it surprising, but the noble Lord, Lord Empey, appears to have misunderstood completely the purpose of this amendment. I hope that Members of this House who are listening to this debate or who are outside but will come in later on will reflect carefully on the reality of this amendment. This new clause does not in any way damage any other part of the Bill. Whatever one’s views about the Bill—and I do not much like it—there is no damage to be done intrinsically and internally to the text of the Bill. The only differences are the three government defeats so far and what may happen with this amendment when the vote is called. That is all. The rest of the Bill goes through intact. That is part of the Government’s programme, and no one can gainsay that. The noble Lord is raising fears that should not exist in anybody’s mind. I hope he will reconsider because it is very important that the review process that my noble friend Lady Williams referred to, in such a step in the dark with this legislation, is essential at the end of this coalition period to start with and later on too.