Estates of Deceased Persons (Forfeiture Rule and Law of Succession) Bill
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debate16:47 - Division on Amendment 33 - Ayes: 242 / Noes: 209 - Amendment 33 agreed.
19:31 - Division on Amendment 35. - Ayes: 209 / Noes: 203 - Amendment 35 agreed.
Lord Triesman
My Lords, I am sure that on the day that proposition is in front of the House, we will have an energetic debate and probably get to the bottom of it at that time. I am very tempted to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, who asked what he should do. It would probably be ungracious to try to answer that question, but I suppose that sitting on his hands or repairing to one of the bars are among the available options. However, he illustrated the fact that there is a great deal of commonality right across the House on this issue.
I am among those who do not like declaratory clauses—I am wholly with my noble friend Lord Richard and the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, on this. I cannot understand what such clauses do other than call into question the fundamentals of our law and the statements that have been made about our law by the House of Lords and others. I cannot see the point. However, I accept that it is a political reality that there is a desire to see this kind of declaration in the Bill. That is why we support the amendment. If there is to be a declaration, it might as well be accurate. If we are going to declare things, let us be precise and accurate. The whole debate boils down to a simple proposition about what we learnt was Sir John Fiennes’s excellent writing of the original legislation, regarding which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, was far too modest about his role.
That Act and Section 3 in particular are the head lease. There is nothing in any other Act that does not flow from it. The more we try to obscure that or suggest that there are other things that may flow from it, the less likely it is that anyone will understand that the declaration is accurate in any sense. This is a technical, not a party political, matter. We have had fantastically good advice. What a benefit it has been to all of us. Let us carry the amendment, which I hope will be pressed, and have a declaration that we can at least say is accurate.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)
My Lords, I thank my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern for moving the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard. Indeed, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in an important debate, which has flagged up the importance of the basis on which community law has effect in the legal systems of the United Kingdom. My noble and learned friend said that there was nothing in principle that divides us on this matter. As the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, said, it is a technical matter that to some extent relates to statutory interpretation. I hope that everything that has been said previously in Committee, and what I will say today, will reassure the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, that there is neither sinister intention, nor are any dog whistles being blown. The purpose is to assert the position that almost everyone who has contributed to the debate has made clear—European Union law has effect in the United Kingdom by virtue of statute passed by Parliament.
I join the tributes paid to my noble and learned friend Lord Howe of Aberavon, who, we fully understand, has gone to a memorial service. My noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill quoted Lord Denning in the case of Macarthys Ltd v Smith, in which he indicated that,
“Community law is part of our law by our own statute”.
Dealing with the question of where Parliament stood on this, in the passage from the debates on the 1972 legislation quoted by the Constitution Committee in its report, my noble and learned friend Lord Howe of Aberavon said:
“the position is that the ultimate supremacy of Parliament will not be affected, and it will not be affected because it cannot be affected”.—[Official Report, Commons, 5/7/72; col. 627.]
That is something to which we as a Government would certainly subscribe.
The key reason for wanting this declaration is that in spite of that, and in spite of the near unanimity in this Chamber that that is the position, we are aware that others have advanced arguments in courts or have written articles that have cast some doubt on that assertion. I know that there are always reservations about what are essentially declaratory clauses in Bills, but this one is important. As your Lordships’ Constitution Committee indicated,
“Clause 18 is self-evident: it restates, but does not change, the law”.
In response to one of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I should say that including such a declaration in no way raises doubts about other issues of parliamentary sovereignty. The Constitution Committee said:
“We are confident that if parliamentary sovereignty were to be questioned in any other context, the existence of clause 18 would not prevent the courts from upholding the well understood and orthodox position”.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
I remind the Minister of the argument made by my noble friend Lord Pannick. If I introduced him to a lady and said that she was my wife because I married her, would I be required to say, “and because I have not married anybody else”?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
No, my Lords, but one should consider the context. This new clause was proposed in its original form in the context of trying to lay to rest any contrary suggestion that there are other means—means which I do not think anyone in this debate has accepted; nevertheless, they are out there and are run as arguments—by which European Union law can be imported into the legal systems of the United Kingdom. That is why we use “only”.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill
I hope that my noble and learned friend takes this question in the spirit in which I ask it. Is there not a danger that his approach would be in accordance with Lord Wilberforce’s warning about the “austerity of tabulated legalism”?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
That is the sort of question that one wants notice of and where the answer might in any case be misinterpreted. I think that I made it clear, and that it has been generally recognised in these debates, that this is against a background of suggestions made not in this Chamber—I think the position is perfectly well understood here—but elsewhere that there could be other channels via which European Union law could be imported into this country. We want to make it clear—I think there is near unanimity in the House—that it is by Acts of Queen and Parliament that the European Union law has effect.
The main difference between us is the view expressed in the amendment that the European Communities Act 1972 is the sole legislative vehicle for doing this. Our concern is that there are other Acts of the United Kingdom Parliament which make direct reference to European Union law, particularly the one on directors’ disqualification, which does so without reference to any other form of the 1972 legislation, even through the Interpretation Act. As my noble friend Lord Flight said, it is belt and braces. In a situation such as this we believe that the belt and braces are required. It is a fine point—not one of principle, but it is one of statutory interpretation. We believe that to list would not be neat because of the danger of leaving one out, but we need to make it very clear that European law becomes part of our United Kingdom legal system through an Act of Parliament. That is the way it happens and by no other way. To limit it to one Act, however fundamentally important that Act, runs the risk of leaving others out which are already on our statute book. For that reason, I invite my noble and learned friend to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
My Lords, there is not much between us. On the other hand, it is important to have clarity. If there are other Acts which are required in relation to this situation, the option is to mention them. The words “an Act” do not give any precision whatever. Therefore, the use of the phrase,
“of the European Communities Act 1972”,
is much clearer.
I think I am right in saying that the statutes, which are referred to as being other statutes—part of “an Act”—use the words defined in the European Communities Act; for example, the Community treaties. Those words are specified in the 1972 Act. All those Acts, in their dealing with European Community law, would be understood as having the meaning assigned to these phrases in the 1972 Act. If the 1972 Act were to be repealed, those phrases would be repealed with it because they would be deprived of the meaning which they had when the Act was enacted.
My noble friend Lord Waddington asked about “only”. If he wants to improve our amendment, it is open to him to propose an amendment to that effect. Of course, that is still possible. If the amendment is passed, he could improve it at Third Reading because I am sure that clarification of an amendment passed on Report would be possible at Third Reading. I do not think it is required, but if he thinks it would improve it, let us see.
This amendment specifies the Act on which we rely. My noble friend Lord Flight talks about belt and braces—I suppose I am getting to the stage when they may be an important matter. If I am right, all the European legislation which is incorporated into our law has been done by virtue of the European Communities Act and the definitions provided in that Act.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
The possibility is that the 1972 Act is on the statute book when these later Acts were passed. Therefore, phrases like “the treaties” and “the community treaties” would be interpreted in the light of the 1972 Act. If the 1972 Act were repealed, these definitions would disappear altogether and there would be no phrase left of that kind because these phrases are all given the meaning of the 1972 Act. If you look at it this way, if a phrase is interpreted as being what it says in the 1972 Act and the 1972 Act is repealed, that phrase has no meaning at all thereafter, so this is really quite an important issue.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
Will my noble and learned friend respond to my point about the Company Directors Disqualification Act 1986, which refers in Section 9A specifically to:
“Article 81 of the Treaty establishing the European Community (prohibition on agreements, etc, preventing restricting or distorting competition)”,
and, in the following subsection, to Article 82 of that treaty, where it is not by reference to treaties in the 1972 Act but by specific reference to a specific treaty? If the 1972 Act were repealed would these words still not stand?
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
I suggest that the European Community treaty of itself would not be meaningful in our statutes until it was given effect by the 1972 Act; and when the 1972 Act ceases to operate, that goes along with it. That is the fundamental position. As far as trying to help the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, is concerned, I am not sure that it is my business to do that. The best advice I can give him, of course, is to support this amendment, and I think it right that the opinion of the House should be taken.
Lord Richard
My Lords, the whole Bill has had some sense of unreality about it since it started. The more that one looks at it, the clearer one issue becomes. Whatever we do with the Bill, it will not operate in the lifetime of this Parliament. I have never come across a situation in which, in the first year of a new Government, legislation is introduced that is designed to affect not the current Government but the next one. We have had assurances from the Government that none of the issues that will provoke a referendum will happen in this Parliament because the Government will make sure that they do not. What on earth are we playing at? Shall we seriously sit down and produce the details of a major constitutional change against the background of a Government saying, “Don’t bother about it too much, although it may be a major constitutional change”, which moving from a parliamentary system to one of referenda clearly is? The Government are saying to us all, “It’s not going to happen. It will happen only in the next Parliament, but we shall legislate now so that it is on the statute book when the next Government come in”. Frankly, that is unreal and unfair and should be resisted.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, the noble Lord speaks with great authority and I listen closely to what he says. However, he has asserted several times that the Bill will not operate in this Parliament. It will. A treaty is in the pipeline, with which we will deal next summer—the European stability mechanism treaty. Admittedly, it is exempt under Clause 4(4), but the operation of the Bill applies as much to that treaty change as it may to others. It is not the desire of the coalition or of any member state of the European Union to promote new treaties or rid ourselves of more vetoes. The Bill binds from the moment it goes on the statute book. That is the reality.
Lord Richard
Yes, but the Government have assured us time and again during the course of the Bill that there will be no further transfers of powers to Brussels from the United Kingdom and there will be no change in the issues which can be dealt with by majority voting as opposed to those which at present require unanimity. None of that is going to happen in this Parliament, yet the Bill is drawn in such a way that legislation is now being passed in relation to those matters. I do not think that makes any sense at all. If this is a parliamentary system of government, as it is supposed to be, surely it is for the next Parliament to decide whether it wishes this structure to continue. If we go on with this legislation, it seems to me only right that we should have some kind of sunset clause which demands that the next Government, when they come in, have the opportunity to decide whether they wish to go on with this. In those circumstances, I strongly support the amendment.
Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, I am, as I have said, in danger of repeating myself in these long debates. As I said in Committee, however, it would be completely unprecedented to bring a sunset clause into this kind of legislation, which has constitutional implications and addresses constitutional developments of a kind which have already gone on in the past. The noble Lord, Lord Triesman, in his eloquent summing-up from his side, talked about profound constitutional change. For many people that has already recurred. That is the problem. That is where we are. That is where the disconnect begins. That is where people feel that great changes have taken place but that Governments have not give them adequate assurance that they were in their interests. It is to give people in this modern age of changed patterns of democracy—still a very democratic age, still a very powerful parliamentary age—a say in profound constitutional change that we are putting forward this Bill and seeking to construct something for the longer term.
A sunset clause, I have no hesitation in saying, would terminate that say. It would seriously undermine our attempt to reconnect the British people with the European Union and with the whole European project as it evolves. It would weaken the whole momentum that we all want to see maintained—and I have been involved in European Union affairs probably as long as anybody in this House—in order to have a healthy European Union that has the popular support and consent in the 21st century which at the present it evidently and dangerously lacks. We need to focus on that point again and again unless we want this trend to grow worse.
The view has been expressed again and again, in this amendment and in previous discussions, that the Bill is an attempt to bind future Parliaments. I have to say again—I am not just saying this as a debating point—that that is simply not so. It is not just an exaggeration, it is a canard. It is a well established constitutional principle—to which we have rarely adhered over some say 200, some say 300 years—that no Parliament can bind its successor. It will always be open to future Parliaments to repeal some of the provisions of a Bill, including this Bill, through primary legislation, just as it is possible for this Parliament to seek to repeal or disapply any existing legislation which may well have been painfully and sincerely built up by previous Administrations. In fact this Administration, the coalition, have inherited many aspirations and some excellent work from the 13 years of the previous Labour Government. It has been done. We did not at the time sit over there and say, “You mustn’t pass these laws because although we like them it would be binding future Parliaments”. That is absurd. I will return in a little while in more detail to the non-validity of the whole line of thought that somehow there is a binding of future Parliaments in the Bill.
If the Bill were to have disastrous effects on the UK’s relations with the European Union and tie our Ministers’ hands—all of which effects also are canards because they simply do not begin to match with the reality, which is of course that Ministers will be absolutely free to negotiate, deal and involve ourselves in the many articles under the enormous competencies at present available to the European Union—there is a remedy: the Bill can be amended or repealed. In fact, the Government resisted amendments in the other place that would have entrenched the provisions of the Bill and made repeal more difficult.
So although we hope that the provisions of the Bill will become an enduring part of the UK’s constitutional framework—that is a perfect, sincere, legitimate and well founded aim and ambition—we did not think it right to single this Act out to be entrenched. However, we do think that it is right that any repeals or amendments should have to go through the same rigorous process as the original Bill. We do not think it right that the powers that the Bill gives to the people and to Parliament should just be snatched back or taken away in a cavalier fashion by minor arrangements. In other words, amending or repealing parts of the Bill should be done through a further Act of Parliament, which is the usual approach for primary legislation. I make that point at the beginning because we have seen common misconceptions run through Committee day after day, and they are not founded on fact, reality, present practice or past experience.
Another misconception repeated today—I was bold enough to intervene when the noble Lord, Lord Richard, was speaking about it—is that the Bill will not apply until the next Parliament. I do not understand how that idea has crept into the debate and gets repeated and repeated, because it is simply not the case. Within three months of the Bill coming into force, as I hope it will, we will use its provisions to make a statement on whether the recent European Union treaty change to Article 136 constitutes a transfer or power competence. As we think that it does not, we will then introduce a Bill to ratify that change. Without the EU Bill, none of that would happen.
The noble Lord, Lord Triesman, is right: that will not trigger a referendum because of the items under Clause 4(4). However, the Bill will certainly operate and apply in this Parliament to a treaty change that goes through the necessary procedures in this Parliament. It is true that we do not expect to hold a referendum under the Bill during this Parliament, because the coalition Government have said that that they will not agree to any treaty or passerelle that could transfer competence or power from the UK to the EU in this Parliament. However, the existence of the Bill is still a binding force. It is binding on this Government and their actions and views. What I have stated is a political view and an intention of the coalition. It is not the will of Parliament or some entrenched and deep unavoidable force. It is the will of the Government. As we know—perhaps I should not add this point—it is possible for the will of the most determined Government suddenly to go into little U-turns and reverses from time to time. It has happened to us all.
Division 2
Ayes: 209
Labour: 152
Crossbench: 25
Liberal Democrat: 18
Conservative: 4
Bishops: 1
Democratic Unionist Party: 1
Ulster Unionist Party: 1
Independent: 1
Plaid Cymru: 1
Noes: 203
Conservative: 132
Liberal Democrat: 47
Crossbench: 14
Ulster Unionist Party: 2
Bishops: 1
Labour: 1
UK Independence Party: 1
Independent: 1