Estates of Deceased Persons (Forfeiture Rule and Law of Succession) Bill

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Wednesday 15th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Spicer]

My Lords—

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords—

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords—

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I think the noble Lord, Lord Spicer, and I have something to say.

[Lord Spicer]

My Lords, I had not meant to say anything at all until I heard some of the arguments. It seems that the 1972 Act is not totally invulnerable. Factortame was a nasty scare. Therefore, the last thing that we want to do at this stage is to throw further doubt on the 1972 Act by talking about “an Act” rather than the 1972 Act.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I have two questions for the Minister that I asked in Committee but to which I did not get an answer. First, will he confirm that the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, is 100 per cent right when he says that when the happy day comes—he did not put it like that—when the 1972 Act is repealed by the House of Commons and your Lordships’ House, it will then be definite that we are out of the European Union?

However, the question is not quite as simple as that. In January 1997, your Lordships were good enough to give Second Reading to a Bill in my name that did exactly that—it repealed the 1972 Act. At the time I was advised by the Clerks that this would still leave us with a problem from the Eurosceptic point of view, which wants nothing to do with any European legislation whatever. That problem would be that all the EU law that had been sewn into domestic law since 1972 would remain valid in British law. At the time, the Clerks advised me that one is not allowed to introduce a Bill into your Lordships’ House that is not capable of practical fulfilment. Their advice at the time was that it would have taken 12 parliamentary draftsmen some three months to identify all EU law sewn into domestic law, which could then have been repealed at our leisure. I am glad to say that they even suggested having a massive Henry VIII clause at the end of the procedure. Therefore, my first question to the Minister is: would it really still be the case that EU law remained in British law? There is far too much of it; nowadays the majority of our national law is passed in a wholly undemocratic process in Brussels to the exclusion of Parliament in this country.

My second question to the Minister was, and is, as follows. When, as I say, the joyous day comes that the 1972 Act is repealed, that surely means that the Lisbon treaty falls in its entirety, because the Lisbon treaty is only an amendment to several other amendments to the 1972 Act. When that happens, is this country still obliged to follow the provisions of the Lisbon treaty which govern how a country leaves the European Union? That is a process, I think—I may be wrong—under Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty, which takes two years and puts the Council in charge of the process and, indeed, the cost of the country leaving the European Union. When we repeal the 1972 Act, does that provision fall as well? Are we then, as the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said, free of the whole wretched thing, or are we still bound by Lisbon? What about the domestic law which is sewn into our law? Surely that remains binding until repealed by Parliament.

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, I apologise to both noble Lords who have just spoken. In my eagerness to get up I may have mistakenly thought that we were coming towards the end of a deliberation. My reason for thinking that was that this has been in some ways a very one-sided debate. There does not seem to be huge difference across the House, whether it is between lawyers or non-lawyers or members of one party or another. For those reasons, I hope that the House will allow me, a non-lawyer, at least temporarily to fill the shoes of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, whose name is to the amendment.

A number of noble Lords have made very clear-cut responses to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington. I fear that the noble Lord, Lord Flight, is frightening himself with what may be extremely fanciful personal anxieties, which I hope that he will be able to put to bed as he rests tonight. The noble Lord, Lord Pearson, does not seem to be speaking to this debate, amendment or, indeed, to anything else that your Lordships are discussing. As I understand it—no doubt I will be corrected if I am wrong, not least by the noble Lord—we are not debating the repeal of the 1972 Act, but trying to understand its status in United Kingdom law.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, in actual fact what I have said is relevant to this amendment because it says that all British law is only there because of the 1972 Act. I am merely asking what happens when it is repealed.

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, I am sure that on the day that proposition is in front of the House, we will have an energetic debate and probably get to the bottom of it at that time. I am very tempted to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, who asked what he should do. It would probably be ungracious to try to answer that question, but I suppose that sitting on his hands or repairing to one of the bars are among the available options. However, he illustrated the fact that there is a great deal of commonality right across the House on this issue.

I am among those who do not like declaratory clauses—I am wholly with my noble friend Lord Richard and the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, on this. I cannot understand what such clauses do other than call into question the fundamentals of our law and the statements that have been made about our law by the House of Lords and others. I cannot see the point. However, I accept that it is a political reality that there is a desire to see this kind of declaration in the Bill. That is why we support the amendment. If there is to be a declaration, it might as well be accurate. If we are going to declare things, let us be precise and accurate. The whole debate boils down to a simple proposition about what we learnt was Sir John Fiennes’s excellent writing of the original legislation, regarding which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, was far too modest about his role.

That Act and Section 3 in particular are the head lease. There is nothing in any other Act that does not flow from it. The more we try to obscure that or suggest that there are other things that may flow from it, the less likely it is that anyone will understand that the declaration is accurate in any sense. This is a technical, not a party political, matter. We have had fantastically good advice. What a benefit it has been to all of us. Let us carry the amendment, which I hope will be pressed, and have a declaration that we can at least say is accurate.

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[Lord Williamson of Horton]

My Lords, we have had quite a bit of experience recently of sunset clauses, or proposals for sunset clauses—we may keep that to the back of our minds. This amendment would bring Part 1 and Schedule 1 to the Bill, if enacted, to an end at the end of this Parliament. That gives the Secretary of State the power to provide by order, subject to approval of both Houses of Parliament, that the legislation is revived for a further parliamentary period—and so on until the end of time. I did not use the phrase of the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, about an endless series of sunsets and sunrises because I reserve that to my wishes for the next 20 years for my personal life.

What is the purpose of the amendment? It is to provide an opportunity to monitor the legislation, to see how it is operated, if at all, and to see public reaction, in particular whether it has succeeded in its principal objective of improving the connection between the public and the work of the European Union. I would be very interested in that. If this legislation goes through, we would like to see an improvement in that connection and the legislation is directed to do that—let us see if it has made progress in that area. If the legislation is judged to have been successful, it is of course a relatively simple matter to continue it for a further period.

This clause does seem appropriate in this Bill, which is a constitutional innovation, switching from Parliament to national referendums the decisions on a list of issues, and for that reason I support Amendment 35.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I am afraid that this amendment, if accepted, will be seen by the British people as an unambiguous attempt to wreck the Bill, and so I can but advise your Lordships not to accept it. Not for the first time I must ask your Lordships to see and accept that, uniquely on this issue of our EU membership, your Lordships’ House is strongly and increasingly out of tune with public opinion. We have even managed to debate for many days a European Union Bill which does not address the two key issues about our membership: the disaster which is the euro and the fact that we avoided it, and whether we want to stay in the European Union at all.

I congratulate the Government and the Foreign Office on managing that feat, but it does not make your Lordships’ House any more relevant or popular to the people we are supposed to serve. The British people are not stupid. They are in fact much cleverer, much more patriotic and altogether nobler than their political class. They also work in the real world to earn the salaries to pay the taxes to keep us, the political class, afloat in the style to which we have become accustomed.

Of course the political class does not like referendums. That has been very clearly set out in our debates, and today by the noble Lords, Lord Deben and Lord Brittan, and by those who have tabled and support this amendment. However, the British people are showing strong signs of wanting more referendums, and on this issue all the latest polls show that something like 84 per cent of the British people want a referendum on our EU membership—in or out—let alone the comparatively minor issues covered by this Bill.

The British people understand that what is happening to the people of Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland and other countries is entirely the fault of the discredited project of undemocratic European integration with its attendant euro. It is not just in this country that the public are moving against EU membership and their political class—and, therefore, I might point out, this amendment. I do not suppose your Lordships have noticed the very recent opinion poll in Norway. Norway has moved a long way: according to this poll, 66 per cent are now against EU membership, with only 26 per cent in favour. Opposition to EU membership is highest among people under the age of 30, with 77 per cent against and only 15 per cent in favour. As the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, has reminded us, opinion is moving strongly in France, Germany, Finland, Holland, Austria—in fact, hardly anywhere in Europe is EU membership still popular.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

Would the noble Lord agree that the whole tenor of his speech—it is something like the sixth time I have heard it, during Second Reading, Committee and Report—is that he supports the Bill because he believes it is a step on the way to us getting out of the Community? That is why he supports it, and I hope that anyone who votes for it understands that.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, as I said on Second Reading, I think that this Bill is a “thus far and no further” Bill, and therefore it is to be welcomed. However, it is also a “shutting the stable door” Bill, because the European Union already has all the powers it needs to continue down its very unfortunate path towards complete integration, in the teeth of the growing opposition of the people of Europe.

[Lord Flight]

May I suggest to the noble Lord that perhaps the reason why the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, opposes the Bill is that it represents a potential barrier on the movement towards complete European integration which is his objective?

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord—my noble friend, if I may refer to him as such—for pointing that out, and he pointed it out much better than I did. That is true: the movers of this amendment and the people who oppose this Bill do actually want an integrated superstate of Europe run entirely by the political class, having destroyed the democracies of Europe—which was always the big idea behind the project.

The movers of this amendment and those who will support it are attempting to swim against the tide of opinion here and in Europe. That tide in the end will prove irresistible, so I oppose this attempt to do so.

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[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

The noble Lord, Lord Pearson, is also a bear of remarkably small brain. The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, has made a very good point, and I may well vote in favour of the amendment.

[Lord Dobbs]

I ask the noble Lord to consider carefully at this point. A sunset clause is like a great sulk. It is like retiring to our castles after the battle is lost and pulling up the drawbridge. The world is not like that any more—although, gazing along these Benches, I see that there may be one or two noble exceptions with castles and drawbridges. Our duty today in this place is clear. We are here not to indulge our own interests, but to serve the people. I mentioned that great film “Casablanca” on Monday. There comes a point in the film, after the usual suspects have been rounded up—it is the most important point of the film—and as the plane is waiting to take off, when Bogart turns to Bergman and reminds her that there is a bigger game to play that overrides their own interests, and that if they fail to recognise that, they will come to regret it: maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of their lives. There is a higher cause here—a bigger game to play. It is the future of the European Union. It is in question as never before and only the people can rescue that future. That is what this Bill is all about: giving the EU back to the people.

It is also much more than that, for in a sense it is not about Europe but about us and about this country. It is not about little England but about the great British people—about how we govern ourselves and how we show the people, at last, that we give a damn about what they think. The principle of placing our trust in the people is something that is eternal and indivisible. It is not just for a few days or for a single Parliament—and most certainly not for the convenience of politicians who have failed to carry the argument. We have a duty to listen to ordinary men and women of great common sense. If we do not—if we refuse—we deserve to be thrown on that rubbish tip that Mr Clegg is even now preparing for us.

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[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

My Lords, I will not delay the House for long and I certainly will not repeat many of the arguments that have been made extremely well by my noble friends. But I should like to take up a point made by my noble friend Lady Falkner who was seriously worried that the problem would be one of delay when this Bill has to be renewed at the beginning of each Parliament. I am afraid that I come from a more paranoid side on this. My view is that we do not want a sunset clause because, if we had, say, a non-Conservative Government, it might be quite attractive for them to let this Bill lapse. There would be a bit of a row that would last 24 hours and they would get away with it. It would be much more complicated—indeed, almost politically impossible—to put forward a Bill to cancel this Bill, put it out of business all together and repeal it. So I come from a rather different angle but I reach the same conclusion as my noble friend.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, who has just answered the noble Lords, Lord Dubs and Lord Flight, and has come to the right conclusion. I am no longer bamboozled by this Bill or this amendment.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

I am not sure that my erstwhile noble friend should take such comfort from that. One of the reasons people join UKIP is that they are worried that they are going to be drawn further into the European Union, and certainly they will be much reassured when this Bill reaches the statute book that that is not going to happen. I suspect that he will see his membership going into reverse, but that will be his problem rather than mine.

I was interested in the opening remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. He said that the whole of this Bill is otiose because it would not have any effect in this Parliament. My noble friend the Minister intervened to say that of course it would in terms of updating the stability and growth pact because it was going to be exempted, and there might be other amendments from the European Union. I am afraid that I do not take quite such a phlegmatic view. The eurozone is in a state of crisis at the moment. That makes one wonder, when one looks at the people proposing these amendments, how many of them would have suggested that it was a good idea to join the eurozone some years ago. We all mistakes in politics, but that would have been a major one. If we had joined the eurozone and we were in it today, I can tell the House now that the asset bubble we have seen over the past few years would have been even bigger because the interest rates we would have enjoyed in the eurozone would have been much lower and this country would be in even greater difficulties than it is today.

Let us return to the eurozone. I believe that it is reaching a crisis point, one where a decision has got to be made. Members of the eurozone either have to let the thing collapse and completely disintegrate with defaults happening one after the other, starting with the periphery countries and moving steadily towards the centre, or they have to completely revamp the eurozone so that there is probably a finance ministry or a massively beefed-up European Central Bank. The reason I am boring the House with all this is that that would need a treaty change. The Government would argue that such a treaty change would concern only members of the eurozone, not the United Kingdom, but I have to say that that treaty change would have come through both Houses of Parliament and possibly could be subjected to judicial review as to whether there were transfers of sovereignty as a result of such a treaty change coming through.

Noble Lords might say that that is not going to happen in this Parliament, but is it not? At the moment there is a guarantee on sovereign bonds within the eurozone that will last until 2013, but we have to ask what will follow after that. I have to remind noble Lords that 2013 comes two years before the time when we are to have a general election in 2015. I give way to the noble Lord.