Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Lord Cromwell Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 9th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I support the intention of this Bill in its pre-Committee stage. I know that the Minister will be looking forward to the flow—possibly even the flood—of useful and constructive amendments that will be coming her way from all across the House and beyond.

Water is our most precious resource, yet we have allowed it to be managed for short-term financial gain and with inadequate regulatory intervention. The saying goes, “Don’t excrete where you eat”—or words to that effect—and yet mixing sewage and water, initially excused as an occasional force majeure, is now standard practice. Turning around the decades of infrastructural neglect and creating a resilient water and sewerage system will take a generation and need consistency through multiple electoral cycles. The last Government talked about 25 years and more than £50 billion. Taking water companies into public ownership, as some advocate, would apparently—and I look toward the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, on this—cost an estimated £90 billion and take a long time to implement. Either way, the investment cost is going to be enormous, but not meeting it in the past is how we have got into this mess in the first place.

Meanwhile, climate change, rising population—to which the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, referred—and new types of high demand for water, such as data centres, are adding further challenges to the existing infrastructure. I therefore welcome, as others have, the full review of the water system announced by this Government. I hope that the Minister will be able today, to some extent, to share with us what the scope, the format, the timetable and the level of independence are going to be of that review.

The Bill sets out a range of punitive measures for water companies, both personal and corporate, including imprisonment, which many others have spoken about, so I will not detain the House further on those. It also includes consumer representation at board level, and I am with the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, on this. I welcome that challenge being brought to board level rather than being ghettoised in some panel on the second floor. I would much rather it was a board-level issuing challenge. However, while these things may reflect the public mood, the fact is that, as the last speaker mentioned, many of the guilty horses have long ago bolted, heading for the hills with their saddlebags full of treasure. Debt-free companies have been loaded with debt, now at 70% to 80% debt to equity. Despite the failure to invest sufficiently in the infrastructure, substantial transfers of value have been made by water companies to their parent companies across the globe while, in some cases, piously claiming that they had not paid shareholders a dividend for years. This is something that the regulator repeated to us when giving evidence to the committee I was on.

While some water companies—and here again I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock—have performed better than others, it is going to be a long, hard and expensive slog to put things right. It will be a thankless task of trying not to succeed but just to make things less bad for a long time, while at the same time under personal risk of financial and/or criminal penalties, compounded by public resentment that the cost will ultimately fall on the consumer. This makes me ponder, as others have: who would now want to take on such a role, with such possible outcomes and high levels of public hostility?

My two questions to the Minister, therefore, are as follows. First, do the Government accept that a very attractive—but no doubt therefore criticised—employment package will be needed to secure, retain and hold to account managers of water companies and of regulators with the necessary skills and robustness? Secondly, do the Government also recognise that, for earlier investors, the party is largely over? They are decreasingly willing to provide capital to UK water companies, and that is a very big challenge for a Government who are seeking private finance to right the wrongs of the past.

Turning now to the regulators tasked with enforcing this Bill, Ofwat has been, so long as water was plentiful and cheap to the consumer, light-touch—and, frankly, outsmarted by private equity financial engineering. The Environment Agency, which will have a vital role in monitoring performance against the stipulations in the Bill, has been drained of resources and morale. I agree again with the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, on the disconnect from Ofwat. Defra, as a supervising department, was found by a committee of this House—of which I had the privilege to be a member—to have been overly complacent about both the water companies and the regulators.

Will the Minister explain how all these issues— the lack of skills, of resources and, above all, of incisiveness—will now change as part of achieving the purpose of this Bill? Simply putting up water bills, as the companies propose, will not create enough money. Hedge funds know this and are reportedly buying up discounted Thames Water paper, to which other speakers referred. Financial restructuring and swapping debt for equity are likely to follow. Will the Minister therefore explain on what grounds the Government think that the regulators—or, indeed, government departments—will be any better at understanding and supervising hedge fund strategies than they were with private equity financial engineering?

Finally, there have been significant issues around the lack of monitoring data and I am glad to see that the Bill starts to address this. Let us remember that it was civil society, not the regulators, that persistently highlighted the sewage pollution issues and it will be an important monitoring ally in keeping both the water companies and the regulators up to the mark. Otherwise, there a risk here of the regulators marking their own homework and blame-shifting between organisations. New Section 141F set out in the Bill is helpful on this, and this is reflected in the positive comments of the Information Commissioner’s Office. Nevertheless, an amendment is going to be needed that expands it to include requirements that monitoring data must be automatically available, online and in real time, including the volume and type of discharge and an explanation of why it happened and what is being done to mitigate and prevent a recurrence.

To conclude, I support the Bill as far as it goes. It is a first and belated step to address one aspect of the problems of the UK water and sewerage system. The systems we inherited from the Victorians reached their capacity in 1960. To build a resilient water and sewerage system fit for the future, we will need a long-term strategy, cross-party co-operation and consistent long-term resourcing. All of these are very, very substantial challenges.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Lord Cromwell Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 28th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on bringing forward the first Defra Bill to Committee stage; I congratulate the noble Baroness and those who supported the amendments moved.

I wish to add a note of caution and I declare my interests in the register: not least, I am an officer of the All-Party Parliamentary Water Group, and I worked for five years with the water regulator for Scotland, the Water Industry Commission for Scotland. The degree of caution I would like to urge in this regard is that I believe we are already committed in law. The Water Industry Act 1991 reflects that very carefully, as do the Environment Act and the Agriculture Act and others, not least the Flood and Water Implementation Act 2010, which is built on that.

I urge the Minister to be cautious in trying to reach a balance both in the Bill before us in Committee today and, more especially, the review to which other noble Lords have spoken, which we will go on to consider. I believe that the balance is currently right but falls heavily on the side of environmental benefits. I do not think that it is entirely clear what the costs will be.

I will issue a note of regret that I have not had the chance to go through the 87 pages of the impact assessment, which was released only on Thursday when I was due to speak in a debate on the Friday—literally, the first working day before Committee. One thing I have picked up that the impact assessment looks at is what the cost of natural capital and decarbonisation, for example, would be. I would certainly like more information on this, if possible. In relation to natural capital and decarbonisation, it says:

“This measure will help to protect the Water Environment and improve the state of the UK’s natural capital. The measure will ensure Water Companies take steps to protect the environment”.


It goes on to say:

“The measure is not expected to significantly impact greenhouse gas emissions”.


That is possibly debatable.

We will go on to discuss my main concern in greater depth in relation to amendments in my name in later groups, so I will not argue this at length now. However, I was absolutely astounded to learn this week that water companies are prevented from encouraging customers to take water efficiency measures. This addresses the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone—a very pertinent point in this regard—about keeping customers’ bills down, which has been the concern of successive Governments as well as of the Consumer Council for Water, Citizens Advice and many MPs, as I found when I was next door, along with other noble Peers.

I am concerned that the definition of “wholesome water” is focused entirely on environmental matters and does not allow for measures to introduce water efficiencies, which I think all noble Lords would sign up to, such as recycling grey water to wash vehicles and, possibly, even dishes. I am a firm believer that clean drinking water coming into the home should be kept precisely for that purpose. It is extremely expensive to produce. We should keep drinking water for the purposes of drinking water. We should seek at every opportunity to encourage water companies to encourage their customers, in whichever area they live. In an area of hard water, for example, it is more difficult to work up a lather. Water companies are best placed to know the water quality in that area and I believe they should be allowed to address it.

The second thing that astounded me this week was that Ofwat had taken away some of the powers for water companies to introduce water efficiency schemes. It took some of those moneys away for better use—to give back as grants for water efficiency. I have no truck with Ofwat in this regard, but I would argue that water companies are better placed to know what water efficiency measures will work in each region in which they operate.

I conclude by saying that, while I listened very closely and admire the eloquence and knowledge with which the noble Baroness, Lady Willis of Summertown, moved the amendment, I think we have to err on the side of caution and make sure we are allowing the water companies the tools they need to do the job, to ensure that we preserve as far as possible drinking water for drinking water purposes, and allowing them to roll out measures to ensure that water efficiency going forward will encourage us all to use water differently. They are currently prevented from doing that by the definition as I understand it of “wholesome water”. We will go on to discuss that at a later stage, but one has to be cautious with the best intentions that are sometimes expressed in these amendments.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I also add my support for these amendments, and I agree with much of what has been said already. On the matter of water usage, I have lived in deserts and I find the idea of people power-washing their cars with pure drinking water in this country extraordinary. But that is where we are today, I guess.

Why do I support these amendments? It is simply because it is vital that this Bill is consistent with existing policy and legislation to which it naturally links. The only reservation I have, which may be something that comes out of the review, is that it brings us back to the question of whether Ofwat and the Environment Agency should be a single agency or two separate ones with a division of responsibilities.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as on the register. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Willis of Summertown, for moving the amendment and for the interesting points she makes regarding the importance of clarifying the intention of this Bill. As we said at Second Reading, we are committed to cracking down on pollution by water companies and we support the Government’s intention to deliver effective measures that bring polluters to justice. While government can always do better, we are proud of our record in the past: we increased the number of storm overflows monitored across the network from 7% in 2010 to 100% today; and the Thames Tideway Tunnel is now complete.

So we on these Benches share the Government’s concerns about the many instances of water and sewerage companies discharging pollution in recent years. This poses a risk to those who use and enjoy our waterways and is causing serious damage to the environment. It is imperative that the Government continue to build on the progress the previous Conservative Government made on improvement, monitoring and tougher action to tackle sewage overflow incidents.

The Government are right to prioritise this issue, but we have serious concerns about the impact of this Bill on the water industry that we expect to explore as we go through Committee. I reiterate my thanks to the Minister, who has continued to engage constructively with us. I am grateful for the time she has given us in the lead-up to Committee. I hope we will continue to make constructive progress and improve this Bill for the benefit of all stakeholders—cost-effective water for consumers and security for the 100,000 employed in the water industry—while protecting the Government from financial risk and restoring our natural environment and incentivising investment.

Amendment 1 would make the purpose of the Bill clear and place a duty on the Secretary of State to have regard to that purpose, as well as the need to meet certain biodiversity targets and the current unpredicted impacts of climate change. The noble Baroness, Lady Willis, is right that we should take every opportunity to improve biodiversity, and there is an opportunity in the Bill to deliver transformative change for our rivers. We have amendments coming up in later groups that would help to incentivise the industry to invest in catchment restoration. That would not only improve water quality and flood management but contribute to nature restoration, biodiversity protection and, more importantly, the recovery of our biodiversity.

The Government want to keep the Bill narrowly focused on the regulation of water companies and their manifesto commitments on penalties for water companies, with the promise of further reform soon. We on these Benches are disappointed that the Government have not brought forward more comprehensive reforms in the Bill. If the promised water Bill does not materialise next year, it would not be the first time that a Government had delivered just partial reform.

We want to see a more ambitious approach from the Government, focused on the whole water sector and not just penalties for water companies—or for executives of water companies. For that reason, we believe there are areas beyond the Government’s fairly narrow focus in the Bill that ought to be included and should not be put at risk by the unclear timing of the future water Bill. The Minister has previously spoken about the need for incentives to attract talent to the sector, as well as an effective penalties regime. We need whole-sector reform if we are to deliver the clean rivers and healthy environment that people across the country are calling for. We support the spirit of the amendment by the noble Baroness, Lady Willis. We on these Benches agree that the Government must go further than the measures included in the Bill, and must do so urgently.

Amendment 91 similarly seeks to place duties on the Secretary of State to take reasonable steps to contribute to the achievement of our biodiversity targets and our climate change targets and to adapting to the impacts of climate change. The Minister will know that, in 2023, the last Government published the first ever comprehensive Environmental Improvement Plan, setting out targets and indicators for water-quality improvement.

Over 25 pages of the plan are devoted to water and targets. There were targets to reduce nitrogen, phosphorus and sediments; a target to halve the length of rivers polluted by abandoned mines; an interim target to construct eight water treatment works; targets on reducing water waste, reducing leakage by a further 20% by 2027; a target to restore 75% of our water bodies to good ecological status; a target to require water companies to have eliminated all adverse ecological impact from sewage discharges at all sensitive sites by 2035 and all other overflows by 2050; a target to create a level of resistance to drought so that emergency measures are needed only once in every 500 years; a target to direct water companies’ fines relating to environmental breaches to improving the water environment; a target to crack down on sewage pollution by holding water companies to account for delivering the targets set out in the Storm Overflows Discharge Reduction Plan; a target to require water companies to upgrade 160 of the wastewater treatment works to meet the strictest phosphorus limits by 2028, with a further upgrade of 400 of them by 2038, which would reduce nutrient pollution from treated wastewater; and—of great concern to me—a target to protect our chalk streams by supporting the chalk stream strategy. Lastly, there was a target to make sustainable drainage systems mandatory in new developments, subject to final decisions following consultation on scope, threshold and process.

I mention those targets to show that the Opposition are not coming here to say that we have just discovered some good ideas and actions for the future. We have a track record of setting tough targets, and they are in the EIP. These targets are specific to water quality and will greatly increase biodiversity. They are not just reasonable steps but specific, measurable targets.

The Government have said that they are urgently reviewing the latest EIP, which is about to be published. I do not expect the Minister to say what the tweaks will be, but can we expect any changes to the water EIP targets when the Government publish them? We share the ambition of the noble Baroness, Lady Willis, for water sector reform, and we hope that the Government will listen to the concerns of noble Lords, who are calling from all sides of the Committee for a more ambitious approach.

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We will of course listen carefully to the debate. I hope other noble Lords can support the amendments, and I hope the Minister is able to offer government support to help ensure that the pay and remuneration system for top water company executives and senior officers is made fit for purpose and does not continue to provide lavish financial support for persistent failure.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 13 in my name. As this is my first contribution on an amendment of my own, I thank the Minister for meeting me, for the fact sheets and the letter, and for the good news that the commission and the review are taking place. We all appreciate that. I support the Bill and welcome the commission review to come.

I turn to the amendment. As touched on by other speakers, including the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, in the debates on the second and third groups of amendments, company employees require appropriate remuneration, just as investors need a return. But the financial engineering introduced previously by investors and company directors—for example, debt levels, transfers to parent companies and other practices that were forensically set out earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Sikka —has enabled opaque enrichment, and has subsequently brought some water companies close to bankruptcy. That is not what monopoly water companies are for, and I believe it lies at the very heart of the current problems of the water companies.

The amendment enables the authority to include rules or guidance, as we may decide, with regard to a company’s structuring and its transparent reporting. It is deliberately left as “may” rather than “must” because the authority may want some flexibility here. Nevertheless, the amendment would act as an overt reference to the responsibility of the authority and water company employees to evaluate clearly the company’s financial structures and changes to them, and how those would impact on the distribution of financial benefits across investors, employees, directors and, indeed, consumers.

[Lord Roborough (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 17 in my name. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, yet again for introducing this group and raising these matters for consideration when the Government are establishing the regulations surrounding performance, pay and bonuses.

Amendment 17 seeks to clarify the definition of what constitutes performance-related pay. There are many ways in which companies can create performance-based incentive schemes. That can include multiyear programmes containing cash bonuses, share awards, restricted stock units, share options and pension contributions. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, it rarely includes chauffeur-driven cars, private schooling or any other benefits in kind, which tend to be part of the base package.

Is the intention to capture all forms of performance-based rewards within the powers of the Bill? If so, would it not be better to be exhaustive in defining them in the Bill? It is vital that such a definition be as clear as possible to ensure that the Bill achieves its intent to punish senior executives who are not fulfilling their obligations to us all in cleaning up our rivers, lakes and beaches.

In the Bill as drafted, the rules are not clear enough as to what financial components could make up the bonus of a senior water company employee in a given financial year. The amendment is therefore necessary to prevent water companies redesigning performance-based awards to take them outside the scope of the Bill. This is not to suggest any nefarious activity, but anyone currently captured by the Bill would choose not to be if they were able. It would then become impossible for a water company not to offer schemes outside the scope of the Bill if they wanted to attract the best talent.

I understand the intention of Amendment 5 from the noble Lord, Lord Sikka. It is indeed important that we ensure that water companies have no incentives to continue polluting our rivers. We have looked at this issue in our own amendments. Amendment 27 would ensure that any rules relating to pay and governance will be suitably scrutinised, so I believe the issue could be solved without the inclusion of Amendment 5.

Additionally, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, whether he has considered the impact that this amendment would have on the hiring process of water companies. I think it unlikely that many people would respond to a job advert indicating that you may have a salary but that there is a chance that by the end of the year it could be taken away from you. If the total remuneration of senior roles is included in the Bill, it is inevitable that water companies will lose people with relevant skills and experience in the sector. That will worsen the leadership and perhaps lead to more serious issues within the sector.

It is also possible that the water companies would be forced to delegate their own management to third-party consultants outside the scope of the Bill entirely, in order to find the necessary expertise to run the companies. Have the Government given thought to how to cope with the possibility of such third-party consultants not captured by the Bill?

On Amendment 6 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, I agree that both legal and illegal dumping of sewage lead to undesirable outcomes. As such, I agree with the sentiment of the amendment. In 2022 we published the Storm Overflows Discharge Reduction Plan, which put in place targets to reduce the release of the overflow of sewage and in fact to stop it, except in situations with unusually heavy rainfall, by 2050. So we recognise that the issue is a pressing one and that action must be taken to ensure our rivers are kept clean. However, in order to stop the legal release of sewage, a substantial investment of money and time is necessary, and the amendment does not allow for such provision of time.

Our sewerage systems are a result of Victorian infrastructure design, and the increasing population and heavier, more frequent storms have led to increased pressure on this system. The suggested penalty will make it even less desirable to hold a senior role in a water company. As such, it will further decrease the number of people with skills and expertise at senior levels. This is unlikely to lead to an improvement in the water system for consumers, which is ultimately the aim we share across these Benches. I fail to see how we can support the noble Baroness’s amendment, despite the case put forward by the noble Earl, Lord Russell.

The amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, would require executives to take personal liability through their performance-related pay for unspecified structuring or restructuring that may put companies at financial risk. This would appear to us to be too vague to have much bite. It also potentially means that executives’ performance-related pay would be contingent on issues over which they might not have responsibility because they could be overridden by shareholders.

As I mentioned earlier, in response to an amendment put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, I encourage noble Lords to support Amendment 92 in my name in a later group, which would be a clear-cut prevention of payments to shareholders where there are potential issues of financial distress.

I look forward to the Minister’s response and hope that the Government will tighten up the definition of performance-related pay in line with our amendment.

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[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I support the amendments, but I want to make one comment on the discussion, which has possibly strayed a little from the Bill. Dealing with surface run-off and, in particular, developers’ right to connect are outdated. I hope that the Minister will urge those involved with the review to have a serious look at this, because it is completely outdated, and with increasing development, not to mention climate change, it will only get worse. It needs tackling properly.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering for moving this important amendment, which has caused a little bit of welcome excitement in the Committee. Both Amendments 7 and 8 seek to ensure that senior executives do not receive a financial penalty for failures that were not their fault or within their control, and we on these Benches feel that the noble Baroness’s amendments merit consideration by Ministers. The intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, at the end also merits some consideration.

It is right that the Government should take steps to ensure that, when a water company fails to meet the standards set by Ofwat, the responsible executive is held to account. While it is right that company directors take responsibility for the successes and failures of a business, under the Bill, other senior officers, who may not be members of the board of directors, could be penalised under these rules. The argument that the relevant senior executive is held responsible, rather than an officer of the company who was not responsible for the decision, is a simple one. Rather than applying financial penalties to all senior executives, including those below board level, these rules should penalise only those who are responsible for the company’s conduct.

It is quite a long time since I last worked in industry, but I do not think that much has changed to this day. Who is responsible depends on the level of direct supervision by a more senior officer. At lower levels of a company, it is quite straightforward: the supervisor or the foreman has minute-by-minute relationships with the team under him or her, so they could be held responsible for faulty work or bad behaviour by their workers. But that is at the lower level. As you get higher up a company, the whole ethos changes. Executives are supposed to set objectives and delegate to their other officers how it is done. The CEO, or directors, tell officers under their command, “Here are your legal duties and these are the company objectives. Here are your own personal targets and objectives—report to me weekly, monthly or whatever on how you are progressing. Now, just get on with it”.

There is no direct day-to-day supervision, and the CEO has to trust that the senior officers below him or her obey the law, behave properly and do not cause the breaches that we are concerned about. It would be wrong to blame and reduce the pay of CEOs or directors based on a mistake by a person under him or her where they have no direct control. Of course, the exception would be in the extraordinary circumstances in which the CEO or executive director gave instructions to the worker to break the law or not to care about the rules. That would be a different matter.

Without these amendments, we are concerned that it may prove difficult to find professionals willing to take on senior roles at water companies if there is a risk they will suffer an unfair loss of performance-related earnings through no fault of their own. It is a basic principle of performance-based pay for employees below board level that it should be tied to their performance as an employee within a team. It would not be an effective incentive scheme if one individual or team were deprived of their performance-related benefits because of the behaviours of failures of another individual below board level. As we discussed at Second Reading, arbitrary punishment will not improve performance; it will only encourage people to seek employment outside the water sector.

If we are to deliver the improvements to the water sector that the British people rightly expect, we must attract more talent to the sector through a fair incentives and penalties regime. The Bill is a bit too broad and could permit rules to be applied to the sector by Ofwat that are unfair and ineffective. Furthermore, when a current bonus scheme, or contractual bonus, provides for the bonus to be payable on the achievement of certain performance conditions, and the performance conditions have been met, an employer is, in effect, obliged to award the bonus. In cases where an employer may grant discretionary bonuses, employers are required to exercise this discretion honestly and in good faith, not to exercise it in an arbitrary, capricious or irrational way, and not to breach the implied term of trust and confidence.

It concerns me that, should the Government choose not to include these amendments in the Bill, and individuals’ performance-related pay was docked for actions or responsibilities beyond their control or remit, it would put the employer in a position of complying with the requirements of rules created by Ofwat under this Bill but then acting contrary to these common-law and contractual requirements. That leads to a concern that this scenario could result in costly and time-consuming litigation, thus diverting funds which would otherwise be better spent improving our water and sewage systems. Therefore, I encourage the Government to accept these amendments so that, should a water company fail to meet the standards set by Ofwat, only the relevant executives are held responsible. However, if the Government are unwilling to put this on a statutory footing, we hope that Ofwat would be willing to enact these principles under its rules, which could be overseen by the House under Amendment 27 as an affirmative instrument.

I want to comment on the points made by my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering on surface water. I put it this way: if we were starting again from scratch a couple of hundred years ago, we would have designed a system whereby we never had rainwater from gutters or car parks running off into Mr Bazalgette’s sewage system—but we are where we are now. In an ideal world, two pipes would come into every house and, as the noble Lord suggested earlier, one would have clean water for drinking and the other water for flushing the toilet or for hose pipes. We cannot go back and do that now—but what we can do is look at new developments, and I hope that the Government will consider the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, in that regard.

I understood that it is possible if one is building a car park, before one puts in the hardcore, to lay a whole series of ooze pipes and then collect all the rainwater run-off, so it replenishes the underground stream by putting the water back into the subsoil. That should be possible. Whatever it is, we need to look at new developments to ensure that surface water is not unnecessarily going into our sewage system. I hope that the Minister will carefully consider what my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering has said.

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[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 16 in my name. I underline at the outset that this is not about putting people on the board; if that is a misapprehension, I want to dispel it. Civil society has been at the forefront of raising issues around water pollution, including monitoring pollution incidents, and, frankly, it has done a better job than the regulators, which have been playing catch-up ever since.

There is an unbalanced and sometimes adversarial power relationship between civil society, water companies and the regulator, and this has given rise to numerous complaints about a lack of transparency—for example, companies deliberately adopting a very narrow definition of “environmental” in order to reject and bat away inquiries from civil society and others. This amendment would require the regulator and water companies to engage with civil society on a regular and formalised basis to agree actions and to record these actions publicly.

This achieves two things. It addresses the disbalance between civil society, the water companies and the regulators and will be an important means to increase transparency, including detailed public transparency as to what is going on, what the regulators and water companies are being challenged on and what actions are planned. It is very easy to underestimate the importance of this. In a previous role I had, we were handing over large sums of money to organisations and one of the stipulations was that they had to publish on their own website exactly what actions they had committed to. This made life very easy for us, because the media then held them to account against those actions. I suggest that a formal process where these things are recorded properly and publicly will be of great assistance to keep the water companies and the regulators up to the mark. Without a formal process of that sort, the relationship will remain distant and most likely adversarial. Therefore, I hope the Minister will look favourably on this amendment or produce one of her own from the government side.

[The Duke of Wellington (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 21 and 23 in my name. In effect, they both seek to amend new subsection (6) on page 2. The main point of my amendment is that I believe it does not lead to effective governance of a board of directors if sectional interests are represented directly on the board. It is much more effective and likely to have more influence if a specialist panel is created to advise and meet the chief executive. I cannot understand why the Government’s clause refers only to the views of consumers. It seems essential—I agree in various ways with the noble Earl, Lord Russell—that environmental interests are similarly represented on a panel. It could be a separate panel or one representing both consumer and environmental interests; I think it would be better to have two panels.

The real point is that I have never seen a board work effectively where there is a sectional interest represented directly on the board, with one or two members of the board speaking only for that particular interest. It makes it very difficult to reach a consensus on a board. Most boards work by consensus, and there has to be a collegiate atmosphere on any board. Where a particular interest is represented, be it environmental or consumer, that is less likely to lead to effective management of the board of that company.

I would like to persuade the Minister to delete from new subsection (6) “board” and “committee” but leave in “panel”, to include consumers and environmentalists on those panels and, importantly, that those panels should have regular meetings with the chief executive to exercise real influence over the conclusions of the board when it next meets on that subject.

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On environmental concerns, however, we need regular meetings with people who have a regular information source, so they can watch what is being done by the water companies in their role of dealing with the environment. Without this, we will get back into the same problems we have now, with two competing regulators of different sorts. Ofwat is bound by any Government—it has happened under both sorts of Government—to be looking constantly at prices, while the Environment Agency is bound to make sure the environment is constantly looked at. Let us have a structure which faces that problem and ensures that the environment is not forgotten.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, we spoke earlier about the issue of two regulators and I will not go back over that. However, I will talk a little more about the presence of people on boards. I think there is a middle ground here—obviously beautifully set out in my amendment. To extrapolate a little from that, I agree that directors in a company have specific responsibilities which would not sit comfortably with having a consumer representative as a member of the board. That is clear and right.

These companies, however, are not just profit-making companies which represent shareholder interests; they are monopolies providing a service to the public for which they achieve a reward. That is an important distinction to make. For that reason, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, that avoiding groupthink and having challenge on a board is a very useful thing. However, I would not go so far as to make them directors, for all sorts of legal reasons that others have already expounded.

It pains me to disagree marginally with the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington. I do not like panels, because they become ghettos that the unfortunate member of board who has to interact with them dreads going to—but they go anyway, they go through the motions and then they come back. I far prefer something more formal: a regular cycle of meetings with representatives of civil society, which are going to be challenging and sometimes uncomfortable but which end with recorded actions that are made public. Otherwise, it becomes just a token exercise and a ghettoisation into panels. I will not try to emulate the tone of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, but the representatives of consumers or environmentalists can be listened to but not heard.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, this has been one of the really interesting groups in the Bill. I am not certain that any of us—from any party, in any amendment—has the complete solution. There are questions about whether a one-size solution fits all. In any case, there is a lot for all of us to go away and think about. These are crucial issues that go to the heart of what we do, how water companies operate, how they are accountable and how people who are impacted by them can feed in to and influence what they do and how they operate.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, for his contribution. I fully support him on the role of civil society. It is particularly important that we all acknowledge, as he did, that we would not be here without the role of civil society. I have an amendment in a later group to encourage the Government to work more with civil society in monitoring the environment.

I also thank the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, for his comments on the need for environmental representation. I am not quite certain where I agree on that debate; I will go away and think about it some more. I have also been on a board, and to be honest, it was one of the most difficult things I have done in my life. That was even on a good, well-functioning board. Sometimes, if you are in a difficult situation, even with good people who work together, things can be very difficult.

I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Remnant, for tabling his amendment. The board should decide on its own make-up and we should not dictate to it. Perhaps there is some kind of compromise here between the Government setting guidelines for what needs to happen, while perhaps allowing some freedom within the way that it is organised and monitoring the outputs that come from it. Maybe there is something we can all work on there.

I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, for his contribution. It is a bold move, indeed, and I am not entirely certain that I agree with that kind of prescriptive democracy. I think that it is better to allow things to be inclusive, as opposed to dictating that they must be in their make-up, but again, I will think about that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, spoke about bringing some democracy into the regime. I certainly think we need that, and that the environment needs a proper, formal voice. I take up the point from the noble Lord, Lord Deben, about the need to watch the environment. If we do not do that, and if nobody has that responsibility or role, then that protective piece that needs to happen will not be there.

I think our areas of agreement were the need to broaden representation to include the environment and community, the need for diversity, the need for boards to work well, the need for constructive challenge to operate and to be brought to these companies at the highest level, and the view what we have now is not working, so we need to go away and find something else.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Lord Cromwell Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 28th October 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Cromwell]

10: Clause 1, page 2, line 3, at end insert—
“(d) requiring a relevant undertaker to assess and report regularly to the Authority on actual or planned financial structuring of the undertaker, including debt levels, coverage of the associated commercial strategy and any associated risks.” Member’s explanatory statement
The amendment requires that financial engineering becomes a regular focus area for timely reporting in order to assist in regulators’ understanding and alert them in good time to risks or distortions.

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[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

Amendment 10 in my name and Amendment 13, which we discussed earlier, seek to address the problem that lies at the heart of what went wrong with our water industry; the regulators were simply outsmarted by PE financial engineering, either because they were not paying sufficient attention to what was going on or because they just did not understand it. Regulators have either lacked or failed to deploy the skills needed to assess the impact and purposes of financial engineering introduced by corporate investors.

Amendment 10 addresses that shortcoming directly by requiring water companies to report regularly, not only on any financial restructuring or structuring but on the strategy lying behind it and any associated risks. This will ensure that such activities have to be made overt rather than, as hitherto, taking place under the regulators’ noses but apparently below their radar. I beg to move.

[Lord Remnant (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted that Clause 10 does not appear to envisage a role for Ofwat. The amendments in this group are not really related to each other. As such, I shall confine my remarks to Amendment 86 in my name and I shall be brief.

Under the “Special administration orders” section of the Bill relating to the insolvency of water companies, Clause 10 gives the Secretary of State the power to modify a water company licence in order to recover any shortfall in costs for the Government from its consumers. New subsection (4) extends this recourse to all other companies in the sector.

I hope the Minister will tell me that I am mistaken in my interpretation of what this new subsection is designed to achieve. Does it not force good companies and their blameless customers to bail out failed companies? Can this possibly be justified? It has been a recurring theme of this debate, supported by the comments of many noble Lords, that the sector is in critical need of substantial investment to raise standards across the board and deliver the service that consumers and the general public so rightly expect. Any suggestion of collective punishment for the financial woes of others is to be resisted.

The consequence of imposing an unquantified and unquantifiable potential liability on the sector will at best push up the returns required by investors to inject capital into the water companies, inevitably increasing costs to consumers. At worst, it risks making the sector uninvestable. That is surely not the intention of new subsection (4), but it may be the consequence. My amendment would remove that risk, and I hope the Minister will support it.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Baroness Hayman of Ullock) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have put forward amendments relating to the financial management of water companies. I will start with Amendment 10, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell.

Ofwat has a core duty under Section 2 of the Water Industry Act 1991 to ensure that companies can finance the proper carrying out of their statutory obligations. Ofwat already monitors the financial position of water companies and can take action when companies need to strengthen their long-term financial resilience. However, we recognise that some companies will need to take further steps to strengthen that financial resilience. Ofwat has required further assurance from these companies about their financial resilience into 2025 to 2030 and beyond, and the annual monitoring financial resilience report is due to be published this autumn and will provide a publicly available assessment of the financial resilience of each water company. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, that we met and discussed these concerns previously. Clearly, the commission that we have talked about a lot today will look at performance and resilience, but I am very happy to discuss this with him further as we move forward through the Bill.

Turning to Amendment 86, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Remnant, I emphasise that there is a high bar for the introduction of a special administration regime and the Government do not expect to have to use this power. A special administration regime will be required only when there is evidence that a company is insolvent or in serious breach of its statutory duties. The noble Lord’s amendment is to Clause 10, and Clauses 10 and 11 are designed to introduce new powers for the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers to modify water company licences to cover any shortfall that results from a SAR. Government funding may of course be required to cover the costs of a special administration, and these clauses mean that the Government will be able to recoup any taxpayer money spent during a SAR that cannot be covered upon exit from the SAR, either by rescue or by transfer. I wanted to make that clear. Of course, in the unlikely event that the power in the Bill is used, it allows the Secretary of State or Welsh Ministers to decide, subject to consultation, the rate at which the shortfall is recovered. I hope the noble Lord is therefore reassured that any intervention would be considered very seriously and as a last resort.

I turn now to Amendment 92, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Roborough. Water companies are allowed to raise debt to fund the delivery of their services and it is for companies to decide their financial structure. At sensible levels—that is the key point—debt can be an appropriate way to fund essential investment. Sustained investment in the water industry will continue only if the shareholders of companies can expect a fair return. This amendment may therefore threaten the ability of companies to attract investment if limits on borrowing are imposed.

I reassure the noble Lord that Ofwat already has appropriate powers to prevent dividends where they would threaten financial resilience. I appreciate that the noble Lord has extensive experience in this area, but I hope he understands why we cannot accept this amendment, because it is vital that we ensure companies are able to finance their functions. If he would like to send in more information about this, I would be very happy to receive it and have a look.

Finally, I once again highlight that the new independent water commission, led by Sir Jon Cunliffe, the former Deputy Governor of the Bank of England, will review the current water industry regulatory framework to ensure that it attracts investment and supports financial resilience for water companies. I once again thank noble Lords for their suggestions and input into this discussion on the financial management of water companies.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I thank everyone who has participated in this. I think we are all concerned about financial engineering of one sort or another. It is not only borrowing, but that is clearly an important part of it. I am sorry that the amendments have not passed muster, but I look forward very much to further discussions with the Minister, as she offered. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 10 withdrawn.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Lord Cromwell Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 30th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, following the noble Earl, Lord Russell, is very useful because I agree very much with his last few statements. This is an incredibly helpful group. The Labour Government would be very well advised to take all these amendments. They are so helpful, reasonable and sensible and bring in issues that I think have been left out without any rational reason.

I deeply regret not having signed Amendment 29 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Sikka. I agree with him completely. In fact, I support most of the amendments in this group. I signed Amendment 78 because who does not want regulators of a public service to work in the interests of the public? That is a very clear statement to make, I would have thought, and it is quite necessary, even though it seems so obvious.

Amendment 84 is in my name. I admit that when I tabled this amendment to remove the duty of economic growth from water companies and regulators, I had not really appreciated that if I looked at it from a completely different perspective, possibly from the perspective of the previous Government, it was a remarkable success story over 14 years because we had huge growth in sewage and pollution—well done, guys—and it had a multiplier impact on gross national product. It is so gross that other countries see it as indicative of the UK’s approach to running privatised services—that is, not very good. When we have a river full of dead fish, the authorities buy more fish to replace them. That is economic growth—a huge success. When E. coli is found in our water systems, we get a double hit of economic growth. There is the extra spending by the NHS on treating all the cases of gastro-enteritis and all the extra money spent on plastic bottles of water handed out when consumers cannot drink from the tap. We even have the prospect of a rain-soaked country like ours spending millions on hiring supertankers to import drinking water from Norway. That is extra spending and extra growth. I can see that growth is a success factor in the previous Government’s estimation. Of course, we also cannot forget the staggering growth in shareholder dividends and CEO salaries. When these private water companies take money out of the hands of bill payers and help the rich to buy new private jets, that also adds to GNP.

My problem is that this kind of GNP adds to most people’s unhappiness. In fact, that is why the promotion of growth for growth’s sake is complete nonsense. I do not understand why anyone would advocate that. The more that rivers are polluted, the unhappier the lives of everybody using that space, whether they are dog walkers, anglers, wild swimmers or nature lovers. The more money that shareholders and CEOs get, the less happy the bill payers are about 40% of their money being spent on debt repayments and dividends. Growth is not an indicator of happiness or of the economy being run for the benefit of many. It is a nonsense soundbite for the economically illiterate and needs to be deleted from this legislation.

On Amendment 85, if Ofwat had been given a duty to protect the environment when it was set up decades ago, we would not be in the mess that we are. There would have been a clear connection in Ofwat’s role between signing off bill payers’ money to fund environmental improvements and ensuring that those improvements actually happened. Ofwat needs two sets of books open on its desk all the time. The first would show the real state of the industry’s finances, including the accounts of the big financial businesses that own the water companies, and the second would show whether those companies were environmentally solvent. By that, I mean whether they are capable of meeting the environmental standards on clean water and the obligations to maintain the health of the waterways.

Whether Ofwat is competent enough to carry out this new duty, or any other duties, is a completely separate debate. We have to remember that Ofwat was meant to be looking after the interests of bill payers but has completely failed to do so. It has allowed the water industry to become owned and controlled by a superstructure of financial institutions that use clever scams to fleece the bill payer in ways that Ofwat has appeared to be completely oblivious to.

We know that if this Government allow Ofwat to remain the main regulator of private water companies over the next few years, its role must include the environment. Fixing the regular discharges of sewage into our waterways, along with the polluting run-off from agriculture, is by far the biggest financial challenge the industry faces. If Ofwat does not understand that duty, the regulation will not match up to the challenge.

I am afraid the Government did not turn out very well on climate change and our ecological crisis in the Budget. They do not seem to understand how climate change comes down to the lowest level and affects every single individual, and I would be really happy to help explain that. It is time to put this particular duty on the environment into the legislation.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, a thread that runs through many of these amendments is the divergence between the environmental objectives and the clean water consumption objectives. A number of times, we on these Benches have raised the issue that there are two regulators with those responsibilities separated between them. That is something with which the Minister is going to have to grapple in her reply. I think it was the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, who made the point that time is of the essence, and that waiting for the review may be too late. There is a choice to be made about giving Ofwat these objectives now or making a more fundamental structural change about who regulates the whole environmental question around water.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, may be pleased to note in the Budget the increase in tax on people flying on private jets, which she referred to. Apart from that, I agree that there was not much coverage of the environment.

This thread keeps coming up and it needs to be addressed. Is it going to go into the Bill now or will it become part of the review later?

[Lord Remnant (Con)]

My Lords, I was not intending to speak to this group of amendments, but I have been so impressed, not for the first time, by the ability of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, to speak fluently without notes that I thought I would try to emulate her on this occasion.

I merely make an observation on Amendment 29 from the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, because it is very widely drawn. Clearly, there are no individuals working at any of the regulators who, at the same time, are taking employment from water companies. I assume the amendment is intended to address not that but people moving from the regulator into water companies thereafter. I am not sure whether that in itself produces an appearance of a conflict of interest but, if it does, we have to be careful about constraining people’s ability to earn employment and move from one job to another. Indeed, it may stop experienced and competent people working for regulators in the first place, which is something for us to avoid if we can.

It also has much wider implications. The amendment would apply to this sector but there are lots of other regulated sectors, not least the financial services sector, where I believe this prohibition does not exist. Certainly, many people move from the PRA and the FCA into financial companies, banks, insurance companies and so on. We need to be careful when we consider the implications of this amendment.

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[Baroness Boycott (CB)]

I rise briefly to support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne, on the use of nature-based solutions. The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, mentioned a river in Somerset. I am quite connected with a group which is changing the path of the River Exe as it goes into Tiverton, where it floods every year. They became a group because of a scheme Defra ran about three years ago offering money. The point about these schemes is that they absolutely depend on communities; they have to start from the ground up. My friends have had to liaise with all the farmers in the valley and have finally got them all to agree to give one or two fields so that the river can meander—and there are plenty of beavers involved. The result will be to help the school their kids go to in Tiverton, which floods every year. They have spent a lot of their own money working out what it will actually do. It will reduce the flooding in Tiverton by around 50% to 60%. At the same time, the farmers will get money from biodiversity net gain, and it will help them fill in the forms.

My plea to the Government is: wherever the money comes from—from Defra or the water companies—make sure there are channels for it to get back to the communities that make these schemes happen. They cannot just be legislated for; they have to happen from a group of people who really care.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I also support Amendment 37, which is, like its proposer, both modest and proportionate. It is obvious that this needs to be taken into account by the Minister. It is about nature-based solutions. If we are declaring our interests, I should say that as a schoolboy I used to work at Slimbridge, I am a farmer at home, I have had a lifelong involvement with environment schemes, and a previous Minister even referred to me rather flatteringly as an environmental warrior.

I will just sound two notes of caution. When we had a committee looking into nature-based solutions, it was very hard to get an idea of the size of the prize. They have a place in the system, as the noble Lord, Lord Gascoigne, has made very clear. However, for a large pollution or sewage outflow from a city, it is hard to envisage nature-based solutions having sufficient impact.

The other note of caution I urge is that, having tried to get a river catchment project together in the past, I learned one thing: how many of the riparian owners up that river had feuds with one another and absolutely refused to co-operate. That was capped off by the Natural England adviser telling me it was all far too complicated and asking if I was sure I wanted to do it.

There is plenty of work to do here, but I support this amendment. It is essential. It is a modest amendment that simply says that nature-based solutions should be considered, and that is completely correct.

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[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, this group of amendments is about rules and requirements for monitoring and the publication of data. I apologise that this is a big group, as well as being the last group that we have to debate before our dinner hour; there are 15 separate amendments here.

Data, what we know, how we know it, how we use that information and how it is shared are all of crucial importance in monitoring what water companies are doing and also for protecting our environment. Knowledge is power, and I am reminded of the words of Ronald Reagan: “Trust, but verify”.

Amendment 43 in my name would quite simply require water companies to publish the volume and concentration of discharges from their emergency outflows. One area of the Government’s Bill that I personally particularly welcome is the plans to improve the real-time monitoring and sharing of data on emergency sewage overflows, introduced as new Section 141F. These measures are very much welcomed on these Benches. Can I clarify with the Minister that it is the Government’s intention to apply the monitoring regime as set out in the Bill to 100% of the outflows?

My amendment here is not a criticism of what is in place; instead, it is an attempt to see if there is scope to build on and slightly improve it, if possible, and explore with the Minister what some of the practical obstacles might be in place, if there are any at all. The measures set out in the Bill do not require transparency in terms of volume and type of discharge. I am fully aware, having done some work in other areas of monitoring and verification, that what I am asking for may well have far-reaching and possibly expensive implications. I am aware that this may involve different types of sensors being used and different information being captured, stored, and interpreted before going on to be shared. I would be interested to hear the Government’s position on these proposals, and what challenges such changes might present for them. Moving to a more robust and complete monitoring set of data is an essential journey that the Government need to take over time.

Amendment 47 in my name would require water companies to publish data on one website to increase transparency and ease of access for the public. This amend seeks to do what it says on the tin. It is relatively straightforward, so I will not speak to it for too long, but it is a quick and affordable improvement, which I hope will win government support. It is designed to strengthen and better enable the intentions of the Government to improve monitoring and the public’s access to the monitoring data. This is important not just to hold water companies to account and protect our environment but to help protect public health as best that we can. Where there are sewage spills, for whatever reason, it is very important that we all work to ensure the quick and smooth access to this information so that the public are aware of potential health risks and can take appropriate measures.

With many multiple water companies and water and sewage companies, and with all their websites having multiple pages and different tabs and set-ups, it would be easy for this information to all be published in full compliance with the Bill yet still leave it virtually impossible for the public to find it quickly and easily. That would defeat the spirit of the legislation, as I interpret it. My hope is that this amendment would have small associated costs but would bring strong associated benefits in transparency and accountability for what is actually happening but also as a means of deterrence. Water companies, I am sure, will think twice about their investment plans and clean-up operations when things go wrong, if they are aware that the public can monitor them easily in real time. It may be that this information is best hosted on either Defra’s or the Environment Agency’s website, and the wording of my amendment does not intend to rule that out as a possibility. I look forward to the response of the Minister to this practical suggestion.

Finally in this group, I come to Amendment 94 in my name. This amendment would require the Secretary of State to take steps to facilitate citizen science with regard to monitoring water companies. It is fair to say that none of us might be sitting or standing here debating the measures in this Bill were it not for the tireless work of concerned citizens and their passionate dedication and care for their local environment. In recent years, we have seen enforcement budgets for the Environment Agency cut almost in half, combined with a light-touch regulation regime, which has allowed water companies to self-monitor, as well as many no-flow incidents and other pressures. Much of the information, knowledge and drive to prevent sewage discharges and much of the information about what is happening out there in the real world has come as a direct result of citizen science and citizens who care about their local environment. It is really important that we as Lords pay tribute to their work as a thank you to them, because the rise of this issue up the national debate and the national consciousness is partly a direct result of the work that they have taken up. That is work where they have taken on roles that really should have been filled by the Government and regulatory agencies. For whatever reason, they did not have the capacity to do that. They are too many of these organisations to mention them all, but I acknowledge the Rivers Trust and its Big River Watch, which has worked for many years to build up a detailed knowledge of local environments, as well as the work of Thames21. I hope that other noble Lords will join me in offering them thanks.

With only 14% of our rivers in good ecological health and with budget pressures, improving citizen science is a win-win for everybody. It acts as another means of assessing the information that Ministers get from their regulators; it acts as a check on that and acts as a deterrent on what water companies are doing. They do not have as much of a relationship with the citizens doing this as they might do with the regulators, so it is a little bit left field in their context; they do not know what is being monitored where and when. It is an important deterrent and a check on the system—a check that it is working as intended. I encourage the Government to make better use of that resource and provide encouragement, support and training. It is also important that, by doing that, the Government help to make sure that the information being provided through these means is more reliable and using agreed baselines and methods, which in itself provides another important sense of information in all these debates.

There are lots of other really good amendments in this group, too many for me to go through them, but I beg to move.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak to three practical amendments in my name in this group: Amendments 44, 46 and 49. They are modest and proportionate—perhaps that is my catchphrase. I support and echo almost everything, I think, that the noble Earl, Lord Russell, said a few moments ago, especially about citizen science.

Public accountability and transparency need data that is both sufficient and timely. As currently drafted, I do not think that this Bill does that sufficiently. My Amendments 44 and 46 together would solve this. Amendment 44 provides for relevant information to be made publicly available and Amendment 46 recognises that this is not something that can always be provided immediately—I am trying to anticipate the Minister’s reply here. Amendment 46 would allow the water companies to indicate when the information would be available, rather than requiring them to produce it immediately. By including these questions in the Bill while allowing a reasonable approach to how soon it can be provided, the amendments would fill the information and accountability gap that is in the Bill currently.

To turn to Amendment 49, experience shows that allowing companies—we had this exact issue during the passage of the Modern Slavery Bill, by the way—to report things exclusively on their own websites results in difficulties such as differences in the information that is included, where it is shown, how easily it can be found and how fully it is reported. That makes it unnecessarily difficult for those seeking to monitor performance on a comparative or aggregated basis. As represented in my amendment, putting this into one place where it is accessible to everybody is not a large amount of work. It is simply a matter of the water company putting it on its own website and firing off a link to the authority, which can put it on its website. That is how it should be, and it would enable comparative measures of performance, which will be lacking if water companies bury this on their own websites and report it in different ways.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, this is a large group of amendments and I am going to go on a bit; I apologise for that. I will speak first of all to my Amendment 45, which is a probing amendment. I should say, for the avoidance of doubt, that I declare no beavers. The Bill requires sewerage undertakers to publish a range of information when there is a discharge from an emergency overflow. My Amendment 45 would add a requirement that such monitoring and reporting should include whether what are known as “emerging contaminants” are present, including but not limited to per-fluoroalkyl and poly-fluoroalkyl substances—PFAS—and microplastics.

Let me explain why this is important. The noble Earl, Lord Russell, expressed worries about these sorts of chemicals in discharges in national parks, but it not just national parks; these discharges are happening everywhere. PFAS are serious pollutants and occur in entirely innocent-looking products and processes. They accumulate in our rivers and seas, they are persistent and cannot be extracted, and they harm both human and animal health. These PFAS are used in over 200 applications, and I felt pretty guilty when I was briefed on these applications by the Marine Stewardship Council, as I—and probably other noble Lords—use these harmful applications, day in, day out. PFAS are used in anything with Teflon, for example, including non-stick pots, in waterproof clothing, in stain-resisting products, in cosmetics, in firefighting foams, and even in Apple watchstraps. My daily slow-release pills that keep me alive in the face of ulcerative colitis send PFAS into the water environment straight from my gut. So I and all noble Lords are responsible for all of this.

PFAS are tricky to manage: they reach the water environment as particulates through storm or emergency overflows from sewage treatment works, but also from sewage sludge spread on the land or from being sprayed directly into the environment, as with firefighting foams. Once in our waters, they cause damage to wildlife and human health. Although some PFAS can be removed at sewage treatment works, the only secure way to deal with them is to ban those PFAS for which there is a viable alternative—there are a number of viable alternatives for many PFAS—and then seek to develop alternatives for those for which there are not yet alternatives.

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On a single centralised website, the water industry is already planning to publish a standardised national map of all storm overflows on one website, which regulators will have access to. This is being done ahead of existing legislative requirements that will come into force for the publication of storm overflow discharges from January 2025. We envisage that a similar approach will be taken for emergency overflows. I hope that noble Lords feel that this addresses their concerns and that we are looking to come out with the same end result that they are aiming for.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I would like clarification on a point. The Minister mentioned that there will be a map of overflows across the country. How near to real time will it be? She said that it will be accessible to the regulator. Will it be accessible to the public?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I do not have that detailed information. I will write to the noble Lord and place a copy of the letter in the Library so it is available to everybody ahead of Report.

Amendment 50 was tabled by my noble friend Lady Young of Old Scone. The Government fully agree that emergency overflows should be monitored. However, we do not support the removal of the delegated power for Ministers to make exceptions to the Clause 3 duty. We believe that this power is necessary to allow for scenarios where it is not feasible to monitor emergency overflows, such as where an overflow is due to be decommissioned. Removing this power may inadvertently lead to delays in commencing this duty, if issues arose that we could not resolve without this power. Any exception to the monitoring duty would need to be agreed by Parliament using the affirmative statutory instrument procedure.

On Amendment 58, tabled by my noble friend Lady Young of Old Scone, water companies should bear the cost of understanding the impact of their discharges on water quality. Installing and maintaining continuous water quality monitors requires regular access to water company sites. Water companies can do this much more easily than can the Environment Agency. Defra has issued guidance on the expected standards of these monitors, and in future all monitors will be expected to become independently certified under the Environment Agency’s certification scheme. Water quality data that will be made available will then be scrutinised by the independent regulator. Regulators will continue to work with water companies to ensure that the data is of high quality. I hope that this reassures my noble friend and that she feels able not to press her amendments.

Amendment 75 was tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, and I thank her for raising this issue. Misusing sewers to dispose of materials such as wet wipes and cooking oils contributes to major issues, such as blockages in the sewerage system. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, asked whether I have gone down a sewer. I have, and it is just disgusting; it is quite extraordinary what can happen there. Sewer blockages cost the water industry £200 million a year to fix and are responsible for 40% of pollution incidents.

Many people are not aware that the actions they take in their own homes can have such damaging impacts. Small but significant steps, such as not pouring fats and oils down the plug hole, can prevent blockages. The Government work to encourage all householders and businesses to play their part, and fully support water industry campaigns to address this issue, including Water UK’s “Bin the Wipe” campaign. I completely understand where the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, is coming from. I will take this away and look at whether there is any more we can do to draw attention to this fact.

Having said that, we do not believe that water companies should be exempt from sanctions when using emergency overflows following blockages caused by sewer misuse. Water companies should take every reasonable measure to prevent the use of emergency overflows, including measures to prevent blockages. Some blockages caused by sewer misuse can often be mitigated by good maintenance; for example, by detecting blockages before they become significant issues and with preventive cleaning. The intent of this Bill is to strengthen water companies’ accountability for pollution incidents and not to diminish it. That is why Clause 2 will require water companies to publish the pollution incident reduction plans that we debated earlier.

I was interested in the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Deben, to look at how Canda deals with this issue. My brother-in-law lives in Canada, so my family and I go there. It is a really interesting suggestion.

I turn to Amendment 87, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott. Proactive data publication is vital for transparency and to enable the public to scrutinise water companies. While we support the principle of transparency and are taking action to increase transparency through Clauses 2 and 3, we are concerned that the noble Baroness’s specific proposals duplicate pre-existing provisions and would create practical difficulties. Case law and the Information Commissioner’s Office have been clear: water companies are public bodies for the purpose of the Environmental Information Regulations, and water companies already provide information under these regulations.

The Information Commissioner’s Office is clear that water companies must be transparent, and it is taking several actions to enforce that. In May of this year, the ICO released decision notices for six water companies, instructing them to disclose the start and stop times of sewage discharges. In July, it wrote to water companies to encourage them to proactively publish information on sewage monthly. In October, it published a practice recommendation to United Utilities to address the specific issues that it had identified.

I turn to Amendment 89, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Browning. The Government acknowledge that it is important that there is more transparency about the abstraction of water by water companies. However, any new requirements must be both practical and proportionate. Clause 7 already provides the necessary flexibility for the Secretary of State and Welsh Ministers to impose conditions or general rules for abstraction licences. We believe that secondary legislation is the more appropriate vehicle to address these technical matters effectively. However, having listened to the noble Baroness carefully, we will consult on the use of Clause 7 powers to ensure that the conditions introduced are appropriate and achievable.

Finally—I am sure we all want our dinner—I turn to Amendment 94, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Russell. I am supportive of greater involvement of the public in this sector. He made the very important point that bringing in the public is vital, including through citizen science. However, this amendment is not needed, as we believe that the provisions in the Bill will already increase transparency and the provision of data in this sector, which are critical to informing and engaging the public going forward.

I hope that I have set out sufficient detail on Clause 3 to reassure all noble Lords of its intended purpose and effect. I sent out a fact sheet on the definition of emergency overflows and storm overflows to try to make sure that everybody is clear on the difference, but I am sure that we will come back to these issues in future. I hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments and enjoy their dinner break.

Water (Special Measures) Bill [HL]

Lord Cromwell Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Remnant (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as having been a non-executive director of Severn Trent, the largest of the listed water companies, for eight years between 2014 and 2022. I chaired the board’s remuneration committee for that time.

I thank the Minister for taking the time to meet me last week to discuss my concerns about key aspects of this Bill. I am only sorry that her apparent sympathy for at least some of my arguments has not translated into accepting any of my amendments. I have three amendments in this first group. I will be as brief as I can, but each addresses a completely separate issue.

I will take them in order. My first is Amendment 4. New Section 35B(2)(a) addresses performance-related pay. The rules will set standards that companies will have to meet in a financial year in order to be able to make awards of performance-related pay to chief executives and directors for that year. However, the Bill extends the scope of this section, in new subsection (5)(c), to holders of such other description of role with the water company as Ofwat may specify.

My Amendment 4 would remove this extended application to individuals below board level. This extension will be difficult to implement in practice, as different water companies will have individuals described differently by title and role. Nor would such an extension be consistent with general remuneration under the corporate governance rules for listed companies, which do not extend to individuals below board level. If we wish to attract and support the next generation of leaders in this vital industry from middle management, this will not be achieved by extending these restrictive remuneration practices to them.

As the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, has just said, those in this House are better qualified than Ofwat in certain aspects, and this is one of them: to decide on how far down the management chain these rules should apply. My amendment draws the appropriate and proportionate line in balancing the objectives of the Bill with the interests of those most directly impacted by it.

I appreciate that Ofwat is consulting on the scope of the Bill and its application to individuals. It asserts that it is minded to apply the rule to any executive director who is a member of the regulated company board in receipt of performance-related pay, because that is where ultimate accountability and leadership responsibilities lie. I look forward to the Minister’s response to my concerns in tabling this amendment. In particular, I would be interested to know whether she agrees with Ofwat’s current stance that only executive directors should be brought within the scope of the performance-related pay prohibition, and, if so, whether she will communicate that view to Ofwat.

Amendment 7 is my second amendment and very much relates to what the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, has just been talking about: the duty for water companies to have arrangements in place to involve consumers in decisions. New subsection (6) in Clause 1 allows this in regard for

“persons representing the views of consumers to be members of a board, committee or panel”,

as we have heard. My amendment adds a sentence which ensures that it is for the boards of water companies, not Ofwat—for very much the reasons that the noble Duke raised—to decide on which of those three forums best suits their own requirements. I am grateful to him for adding his name to this amendment, and I agree with all his arguments in support of it and his own amendment. The Minister commented at Second Reading that it always pains her to disagree with him on anything, so I am working on the assumption that she will wish to spare herself further agony by accepting this amendment. I fully support strengthening the voice of consumers. This can be achieved in a number of different ways, as the Bill accepts, but each company in the sector is best placed to judge what is most appropriate for its own circumstances.

I was surprised to read in the Explanatory Notes to the Bill, in the overview prepared by Defra, that one of its provisions is to

“ensure consumer representation on water company boards”.

I should be grateful, when the Minister responds, if she could confirm that this is not indeed the position of the Government, irrespective of the choices which this Bill purports to give and the consultation exercise to be conducted by Ofwat.

There should be no highly prescriptive one-size-fits-all approach. Those best equipped to represent consumer interest may not wish to, or be equipped to, sit on corporate boards, with all the responsibilities and liabilities that entails. For Ofwat even to be given the option of this route risks alienating such experts and losing completely their valuable contribution. Nowhere in its consultation document does Ofwat point to the disadvantages of consumers sitting on boards, to which I have drawn your Lordships’ attention. I am therefore concerned that prospective respondents to the consultation may be being given an unbalanced view of the options.

We should not give Ofwat the power to require companies to appoint representatives of the consumer interest to their boards. Maybe some companies would opt for this route, but equally they may feel that stakeholder interest would be better served through the mechanism of panels or committees. My amendment would ensure that it was the boards of water companies which made that decision, not Ofwat. It would be helpful if the Minister, in her reply, could confirm not only that all identified options are, in reality, properly on the table, but that she recognises the disadvantages of board representation in this regard, which would represent a very suboptimal solution.

My final amendment in this group is Amendment 10. Clause 1(4) provides that the rules about performance-related pay can be applied in respect of the financial year beginning 1 April 2024 and for subsequent years. In effect, they can be applied retroactively. My amendment would change that date from 2024 to 2025 so that they would first be applied from the financial year beginning 1 April 2025. If we do something today, we believe that the law applying to it should be the law enforced today, not tomorrow’s backward adjustment of it. I would argue that the application of these rules retroactively is even more egregious.

One might at least expect your Lordships to know precisely what it is that they are passing and the resultant retrospective impact, but that is not the case. We are delegating the power to make such rules under this legislation to a third party, Ofwat, and I have already expressed severe reservations about its expertise in doing so, given that this is outside the core competence of an economic regulator. We know not what the rules will be, how they will be applied and what impact they will have. Further, it is not intended that they be subject to further scrutiny by this House before being brought into force, as I say, with retrospective effect.

The retroactive application of rules yet to be drafted will undermine investment and increase the cost of capital, raising prices for consumers. Over the next five years, the sector needs to raise £20 billion of new finance, much of it equity, to deliver the largest investment programme in the sector’s history. Investors are already nervous and can earn better returns in other sectors and in other countries. We need to provide confidence that the UK is open for business. Retrospective action destroys that by creating uncertainty about how their investments will be treated.

It will undermine new talent and the sector clearly needs talented individuals to deliver the amount of improvement we all want. Retroactive changes of this sort will undermine employees’ trust in a career. Why choose water when other sectors do not face this risk? If we cannot attract the best people into the water sector, we will not see best performance.

This Water (Special Measures) Bill is designed to drive better future performance. It is too late to change performance by applying rules to a year when two-thirds of it is already over. The water sector is characterised by assets, with 100-year asset lives and performance challenges that require multiyear investment programmes. That is what we should be concentrating on and incentivising management to achieve, not changing the rules of the game retrospectively as punishment for perceived failings. Many noble Lords, including the Minister herself, have made the point that not all water companies are the same—there are good ones and bad ones. I am concerned that the effect of these rules, when drawn up, will draw no such distinction.

Amendment 10 is about as simple as it gets. It requires the replacement of the number 4 with the number 5 so that the performance-related pay provisions come into effect for the beginning of the next financial year, 1 April 2025, and not the beginning of the current financial year, 1 April 2024. Can the noble Baroness confirm whether these rules are intended to apply to three-year LTIPs, not only those beginning in 2024 but also those beginning as far back as 2022 and 2023, of which 2024 is a part? Her reply on this will be important to me. I urge the Minister to accept this amendment. If she does not, I am minded to test the opinion of the House.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I will speak to Amendment 2 in my name, and I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, and the noble Lords, Lord Roborough and Lord Sikka, for adding their names to it. I will speak also to Amendment 8 in my name, and again I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, for adding her name to this amendment. Finally, I am sincerely thankful to the Minister and her officials for discussing with me these amendments and the two other amendments in my name, which will come up later.

Probably the most fundamental failure in our water industry is that the regulator either did not understand or was unwilling to investigate sufficiently the financial structuring of the water companies: how these structures and indebtedness were altered over time beyond all recognition from the original enterprises, and what the risks and impacts would be. If anyone is in any doubt about the results, they need only look at Thames Water, which is now all but drowning in fetid pools of ever more expensive debt, adding to its existing £16 billion of net debt so as to limp along from day to day and racking up huge future interest liabilities in addition to the principal £3 billion it is seeking.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Cromwell]

2: Clause 1, page 2, line 3, at end insert—
“(d) requiring a relevant undertaker to report not less than annually to the Authority on actual or planned financial structuring or restructuring of the undertaker, including debt levels, commercial strategy and any associated risks, including to the long-term sustainability of the undertaking.”Member’s explanatory statement
The amendment requires that financial engineering becomes a regular focus area for timely reporting in order to assist in regulators’ understanding and alert them in good time to risks or distortions in a water company.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I very much appreciate the Minister’s comments, but as she will expect, I am unable to agree. She said that Ofwat is closely monitoring water company finances. Well, we are nearing panto season and all I can say is, “Oh no it isn’t!” I have had numerous meetings with Ofwat in committee and frankly, I do not think it even really understood them. What is required by this amendment is a potentially very short report that simply outlines what financial restructuring has happened and what new debt has been taken on. It is a modest but vital amendment to make transparent the financial engineering and prevent the shenanigans of the past. I therefore wish to test the opinion of the House.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Cromwell]

39: Clause 3, page 6, line 18, at end insert—
“(e) the date by which an explanation of reasons why the discharge occurred is expected to be made publicly available.”

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I shall speak to both Amendments 39 and 40 in my name. I am grateful for the kind support of the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, on Amendment 39 and of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, on Amendments 39 and 40.

I am told that Amendment 39 is unwelcome because it is hard to determine when explanations can be expected. As the Minister knows, my catchphrase in Committee was “modest and proportionate”. I think that this very small amendment is modest and proportionate, but it is my further understanding from discussions that management plans will, once a year, give explanations of such discharges as part of their pollution plans. With numerous discharges happening across the year, that annual document will be a mighty task to compile and to read through. More importantly, it seems that people living with the discharges might have to wait 12 months or more simply to find out why a discharge has occurred and, presumably, what has been done to deal with it and prevent a recurrence. This invites not only discontent but accusations that nothing is being done and that people are being kept in the dark. Can the Minister take this away and see whether a government amendment can do better in addressing the concerns and rights to information of the public?

Amendment 40 in my name is essentially about trying to get information all in one place so that anybody from the public can access it. Since tabling this amendment, I have been advised by the Minister that Water UK, the body that represents the water companies, is to create a map of discharges that can be accessed by the public. That is very welcome, but unless the mapping is presented and run in a comprehensive and timely way, is sufficiently detailed to provide meaningful information and is periodically assessed for its quality of delivery, it will be of little use.

I have a number of questions which I would be very grateful if the Minister can address, either from the Dispatch Box or by letter. There are six of them—brace yourselves. Can the Minister clarify what information exactly this map will show? When will it be up and running? At that start date, will all future discharges be shown in close to real time? Who will have the responsibility for ensuring that Water UK receives the necessary information in real time? What will be the penalties for failure to supply the information and doing so in good time? Who will have the responsibility for auditing the online mapping performance of Water UK over time? Somebody needs to watch the watchers to ensure that this potentially rather colourful and enjoyable map is accurate, sufficiently detailed and up to date in real time.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I support these amendments. It is obvious that the public have a right to know when sewage is being dumped. Would the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, like to speak to his amendment first? If not, I shall carry on.

The water companies have this as real-time data and there is no reason why they cannot publish it in real time so that the public know whether the waterways are clean enough to swim in, paddle in, kayak in or even let their dogs run in. I simply do not understand why the water companies cannot provide that information. Well, I do know why—they will fight this tooth and nail because the true level of leaks of sewage discharges is so ridiculously high.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I thank the noble Baroness for supporting my amendment. To be clear, it requires an explanation of why the discharge has occurred, not that it has. The Minister pointed out that that might take quite a long time to establish.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

In that case, the noble Lord’s amendment is not radical enough for me, but I hope it passes anyway.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, and the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington, for tabling their Amendments 39, 40 and 41, which speak to the publication of data from monitoring networks and emergency outflow permits. I also thank the noble Lord and the noble Duke for the time they took to meet with me between Committee and Report to discuss these topics and the wider industry that they were concerned about.

Amendment 39 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, was supported by the noble Baronesses, Lady Browning and Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. We agree that it is essential for companies and the regulators to have a clear understanding of the cause of discharges from emergency overflows. That information is important to ensure that the regulators can assess the compliance of emergency overflows and for companies to invest in the right improvements to prevent discharges from reoccurring.

It is important to note that all discharges from emergency overflows should be reported as pollution incidents. Once the Environment Agency has been notified of a pollution incident, it will request follow-up information as to the cause of the incident and any remedial action being taken.

For some discharges, establishing the cause may be straightforward. However, for more complex or more serious incidents it may take longer to identify the cause. When more serious incidents occur, the Environment Agency may need to complete on-site visits and investigations into the cause of the discharges. Since it will not necessarily be known at the time of the incident occurring how long these investigations will take, it is not practical to set a date by which the cause will be identified.

Furthermore, Clause 2 will also require companies to provide information on the causes of pollution incidents annually, as the noble Lord referred to from our discussions, as part of their pollution incident reduction plans. That is to ensure that water companies are transparent about the causes of pollution incidents and the measures they have taken to reduce the likelihood of further incidents.

Requiring water companies to publish a date by which they would inform the public of the cause of an individual discharge would likely result in water companies either rushing investigations to meet an arbitrary deadline or setting themselves lengthy timelines that they know would be achievable. Following our discussions and what I have said now, I hope that the noble Lord understands why we consider the amendment unnecessary and that he will be content to withdraw it. I am of course always happy to discuss matters with him further.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

I am sympathetic to the reasoning given, but will the Minister take on board that this means the citizenry may not know for a year why there was a spillage in their area?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I am happy to take that on board and back to the team for further discussion.

I turn to Amendment 40, also in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, and supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb. I thank him for proposing it, as the Government agree that it is important that water companies make information about emergency overflow discharges as easy to access as possible.

Clause 3 explicitly states that information on discharges from emergency overflows will need to be both readily accessible and understandable to the public. That duty will be enforceable by Ofwat, which will be able to access the underpinning raw data from emergency overflows to inform its enforcement responsibilities under the Water Industry Act.

Water companies have already begun to publish information on storm overflow discharges in near real time, ahead of the Water Industry Act duty coming into force in January next year. Furthermore, Water UK, in collaboration with water companies, is shortly due to publish a new centralised map of storm overflows—as referred to by the noble Lord from our discussions—which is designed to present real-time discharge data from all storm overflows in England on one website. I am sure that he will be delighted to hear that we are making good progress on this. The Minister for Water received a demonstration of the website only yesterday, and the Government understand that it is due to be published shortly.

A similar approach is intended to be followed for monitoring data for emergency overflows to meet Clause 3 requirements. In addition, if needed, guidance could be issued from the Government or the regulator to the sector to further support the implementation of the emergency overflow publishing duty. Therefore, since the industry is already planning to centralise data on sewage discharges on one website, the Government do not believe that an amendment to mandate publication on a centralised website is necessary.

The noble Lord asked a number of very specific questions. If I have not answered any of them, I am happy to come back to him in writing with more detail.

Amendment 41 is in the name of the noble Duke, the Duke of Wellington. I thank him for raising this important issue. The Government are clear that emergency overflows should be used only as an absolute last resort. We are talking about emergency overflows here, not storm overflows. Emergency overflows are different from storm overflows. They operate in response to an emergency event at a sewage pumping station, whereas storm overflows are designed to operate in combined sewer systems during heavy storm events. Discharges from emergency overflows should therefore only occur in much more limited circumstances.

As previously explained, environmental permits for emergency overflows already require companies to put in place strict protection measures to prevent, as far as possible, discharges due to power failure. That can include back-up generators or duplicate power supplies.

The Environment Agency will consider enforcement action if a company operates an emergency overflow and it can be proven that the discharge could have been avoided if the company had complied with the protection measures set out in its permits. Electrical power failure is an acceptable reason to discharge only when it is fully—I repeat, fully—outside the water company’s control and not due to any failure on its part to maintain protection measures.

The unintended impact of the amendment could be that we fail to provide for discharges that are outside a company’s control and that are necessary to protect upstream homes from flooding—for example, if a back-up generator failed or did not last long enough. For these reasons, we do not believe this amendment is necessary and are concerned about the unintended consequences.

Having said that, I appreciate that the noble Duke feels strongly on this point, so I extend an invitation to him that I hope he will take me up on. I offer him to join me on a visit to see some of the overflows in person, to enable him to look at the varied scale and types of infrastructure and protections that are already in place, to help him understand and, I hope, to put his mind at rest. I am sure that the noble Duke has never had an invitation from a noble Baroness to look at a sewage plant before and that this is an exciting first for him.

I once again thank noble Lords for their constructive engagement on the important matters of data transparency across water industry monitoring networks and the permitting of emergency overflows.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

The Minister is right that I am delighted to hear about the centralised provision of information, and I eagerly anticipate her reply to my six questions. I am bitterly disappointed that I have not also been invited to go with her to a sewage farm. What has the noble Duke got that I have not? I do not know and I do not want to know. Anyway, I wish them joy. I thank the Minister, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 39 withdrawn.