Local Justice Area Reform

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Tuesday 15th July 2025 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

From March to June this year, the Ministry of Justice held a public consultation on proposed reform of local justice areas. The consultation sought responses on a range of proposed structural changes set to affect magistrates across England and Wales. Among those proposed changes is the merging of three magistrates benches into a single north Wales bench to serve six local authorities covering an area totalling 2,383 square miles. As the Member of Parliament for a significant portion of the north-west Wales magistrates bench area, this plan is of particular concern to me, and I am grateful for the opportunity to debate it today.

The local justice system in the north of Wales currently comprises three magistrates benches—north-east Wales, which serves Wrexham and Sir y Fflint; north-central Wales, representing Conwy and Sir Ddinbych; and north-west Wales, covering Gwynedd and Ynys Môn. The north-west Wales bench is based at the Caernarfon justice centre in the largest town in my constituency. Magistrates are familiar with this court, and with making the journey to that location to undertake their duties. Under Ministry of Justice plans, however, magistrates will be expected to sit at other courts outside their so-called home court between 20% and 40% of their time.

In some areas and in more urban constituencies, that may not result in significantly increased journey times and distances, but that will indubitably not be the case for individuals in the north-west of Wales. For example, if a magistrate lives in Pen Llŷn, a journey to the Caernarfon magistrates court would incur a drive of about 40 minutes. If the same magistrate is called to the next nearest court in Llandudno as part of the 20% to 40% requirement, their journey time would nearly double to an hour and 15 minutes, and if they were called to the north-eastern courts in Mold or Wrexham, the journey times would be one hour and 40 minutes or two hours, respectively—and I must say that that is on a good day.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd—I hope that is somewhere near the Welsh, but with an Ulster Scots accent—for bringing forward this debate and I congratulate her on it. I spoke to her beforehand just to ascertain the direction of travel. Does she agree that magistrates must know their communities and the characteristics of where they come from, so that they can best serve justice for the victims? In other words, the better they know where they come from, the better they know the people they serve, and then they can do their job.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Of course, this is what we talk about: the nature of justice serving those communities. It needs to know the people within those communities and to reflect their characteristics to best serve the victims, defendants, advocates and witnesses in the process by which justice is seen to be done.

The longer journeys I mentioned will inevitably create difficulties. We must remember that magistrates in this instance are volunteers. Many have other responsibilities, such as childcare and the care of elderly relatives. Some will also be in work—in other employment. It is foreseen that the changes are very likely to result in resignations, so my first question is this: has an impact assessment been made of the potential loss of experienced magistrates, the need to recruit and train new magistrates, and whether certain groups of people will be worse affected by changes in travelling time?

Cost is another factor. If an individual magistrate currently sits only in Caernarfon court, but is now directed to spend a minimum requirement of 20% at Llandudno, the annual travel expenses claim are likely to double. If they were allocated, as is theoretically possible, 40% of their time in the Mold-Yr Wyddgrug court, their annual travel claim would be likely to increase by 600%. Will the Minister confirm whether an assessment has been carried out into those substantially increased costs and the effect on value for public money?

I want to turn now to the impact on Welsh language services. While the present three local justice areas are easily grouped under the title of north Wales, it must be recognised that the communities they serve are not uniform. Indeed, the differences are most apparent in their use of Welsh. The Act of Union 1536 decreed that only English could be used in courts in Wales. That was repealed by the Welsh Courts Act 1942, the first piece of legislation to recognise the right to use the language. Of course, legislation has moved on considerably since then.

The north-west Wales bench serves the two local authority areas with the highest estimated percentage of Welsh speakers, Gwynedd and Ynys Môn, where the Welsh language is in daily use as a community, family and administrative language. The magistrates court will routinely hear defendants, victims, witnesses and advocates drawn from those communities and from the town of Caernarfon itself, where 85% of the population speak Welsh. That is just not true for the other two areas in the proposed grouping. That is made clear in the percentage of Welsh-speaking magistrates across the current local justice areas at present: 55% speak Welsh in the north-west Wales area, 16% in the central north area and only 8% in the north-east. We must remember that the purpose of local justice is exactly that: for members of a particular community to administer justice in and on behalf of that community. That means, of course, reflecting that local community.

For the north-west Wales bench, this has resulted in the Caernarfon magistrates court routinely operating in Welsh. Indeed, the Caernarfon justice centre is the home of His Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service’s Welsh language unit. There is considerable concern that the hard-fought-for offer of a bilingual service in English and Welsh for all court users will be ill-served by the UK Government’s proposals and that prospective Welsh-speaking magistrates will think twice before applying for roles, thus further reducing the number of Welsh-speaking magistrates serving communities across the whole of north Wales.

That issue was immediately raised by senior magistrates on the north-west Wales bench. They asked why a full assessment had not been made of the impact of the recommendations on the use of the language and the availability of Welsh language services. An addition was then made, I understand, to the equalities statement, outlining a potential impact on magistrates’ use of the Welsh language, phrased as “protected characteristics”. But framing an assessment in that way fails to consider the potential impacts on the rights of victims, witnesses, defendants and service users, and fails to engage with the duties enshrined in the Welsh Language Act 1993.

I am grateful to understand from the Minister, in her response to my letter on this subject, that she is “mindful of commitments” under the MOJ’s Welsh language scheme, noting that this includes responsibilities to

“assess the linguistic consequences of policies affecting services provided to the people in Wales”

and

“to undertake a Welsh Language Impact Test during consultation”.

While we wait to see how those responsibilities play out, it is clear that magistrates in the north-west of Wales do not agree that an adequate assessment of the cultural and linguistic impact of these changes has yet been undertaken. In fact, magistrates have gone so far as to tell me that they believe the MOJ has treated Wales and the people of Wales with contempt.

They are not alone in their concerns, as the Welsh Language Commissioner has made clear. After receiving initial correspondence from the MOJ, the Welsh Language Commissioner’s office told magistrates that

“the information and response provided raises more questions about how the Welsh language was considered within the consultation, especially the alleged failure to consider the implications of moving Welsh Magistrates from Caernarfon to other courts across…Wales”—

that is a translation. The commissioner’s correspondence adds that they doubt whether the impact of the proposals on court users has been identified, particularly for those currently served by the north-west Wales bench. I am aware that the Welsh Language Commissioner has contacted the Minister in relation to their concerns, and I call on the Minister today to respond in full to the commissioner as soon as is practicable.

In her response to my letter, the Minister noted that the MOJ produced a

“full translation of the consultation document considering its relevance to Welsh magistrates, court staff and court users.”

The translation of such documents by public bodies is, in all honesty, the bare minimum—it is actually a requirement under Welsh language standards—and, in all honesty, that is not the point here. It is concerning that so little attention has been given to the effects of UK Government reform on the Welsh language, especially given the Labour Welsh Government’s goal of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050.

Of course, this is not new. As a result of the closure of rural courts by the previous Conservative Government since 2010, the proportion of bilingual magistrates—who of course are able to work in Welsh and English; it is always worth spelling that out—serving Gwynedd and Môn has fallen from around 80% to just over 50%; as I mentioned earlier, it is at 55%. There are serious concerns that this reform in the north of Wales will further diminish the percentage and number of magistrates who will routinely be able to offer a service in both Welsh and English, restricting what is the right in law as regards language for court users.

It begs the question of how effective justice can be if a person is denied the right to justice in the language in which they express themselves best—the way they express their emotions and feelings. Of course, it is not only that; this language is one of the two official languages of the country. In the case of Caernarfon, and very much in the case of the greater part of Gwynedd and Môn, this is the first language of the majority of people.

My third question to the Minister is: when will there be a proper assessment into the impact of the use of Welsh in court under the proposed changes? After all, let us remember that when Dic Penderyn was sentenced to death in 1831 for his part in the Merthyr rising, he was tried in English, but he said from the scaffold, “O Arglwydd, dyma gamwedd,” or, “Oh Lord, this is injustice.”

The proposals follow what has already been considerable reform in the field of local justice. Local justice areas were last reorganised as recently as 2016. As I have mentioned, numerous courts across Wales have been closed since 2010, including those in Pwllheli, Llangefni, Dolgellau and Holyhead, with the operations centralised in Caernarfon. Magistrates have endured more than a decade of continuous change. Let us remember who they are: volunteers who dedicate their time to help provide justice in their local communities—that is why they have come forward. North-west Wales magistrates tell me that they are regularly praised for their performance. They say they have not been provided with any evidence as to why the proposed changes to merge benches in the north of Wales are necessary.

I suspect the MOJ may be considering following the model of North Wales Police, which is a regional police force. However, I hasten to point out that the force area operates community policing across three sub-regions—western, central and eastern—which reflect exactly the three benches as things stand in north Wales. The Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board also serves the north Wales region in its entirety, but the pressure placed on it in endeavouring to meet the needs of its widely varying communities is recognised as contributing in part to its being in and out of special measures in seven of the past 10 years.

I have a couple more questions. Will the Minister therefore commit to ensuring that the local justice reform proposals will recognise that justice is best served by magistrates rooted in their communities, and, uniquely to Wales, able to work in both national languages? Will she also commit to redoubling efforts to recruit bilingual magistrates across Wales, so that benches can be fully representative of the communities they serve?

To conclude, the Minister told me last week that one of the geniuses of the magistrates court is the local link, and the fact that it delivers local justice. I agree with her entirely, which is why I secured this debate. I close by urging the Minister and her Department to consider the points that I have raised on behalf of magistrates in north-west Wales, and ask her please to respond to the questions that I have posed during this speech. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Sarah Sackman)]

Let me begin by congratulating the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) —that was my best attempt at Welsh pronunciation; I hope I did not vandalise it—on securing this important debate on the reform of local justice areas. I agree with her that the contribution of magistrates right across the country, but in particular in north Wales, deserves greater recognition. In particular, the north Welsh magistracy is performing well, and I pay tribute to all those who make that possible.

This debate is a timely opportunity to clarify the Government’s intentions to reflect on our recent consultation and to address the concerns raised, particularly those from Wales. I shall begin by setting out some context surrounding the local justice areas and the case for reform. Local justice areas were first introduced by the previous Labour Government as part of the Courts Act 2003. They replaced petty sessional divisions and were designed to define the geographical boundaries for magistrates court administration.

However, the landscape of justice delivery has changed significantly over the past 20 years or so. The hard legal boundaries of local justice areas create inflexibilities in the magistrates court system, leading to delays and inefficiencies. By abolishing local justice areas and implementing a non-legislative replacement structure, we aim to improve flexibility in the system, reduce bureaucracy and allow for more freedom in the deployment of magistrates.

As the House will be aware, the Government and the judiciary launched a joint consultation earlier this year on what the replacement system for local justice areas should look like. I want to be absolutely clear that that consultation was informed by two key principles: first, a commitment to local justice, of which the right hon. Member speaks; and secondly, a commitment to enhance flexibility for a modern magistracy. I am pleased to announce that we have received more than 1,400 responses from magistrates and a range of stakeholders, including legal professionals, local authorities and members of the public. I was encouraged to see the strong level of engagement with the proposals, and the feedback that we have received will shape the final outcome of the consultation.

I want to stress that we are carefully considering all the responses before moving forward—we do not approach this with a closed mind. This is genuine consultation and the feedback that we have received through it will be vital in shaping the reforms.

Although local justice areas as they are now—a legal administrative boundary set out in legislation—will be abolished, this does not mean an end to local justice. Localism is at the heart of the magistracy. We want to ensure that magistrates continue to feel connected to their local communities, and that local citizens continue to feel that their local magistrates serve them.

At the core of our principles is a new system of so-called benches, a structure of court groups that will be used for the purposes of magistrates’ recruitment, deployment, leadership and training, following the abolition of local justice areas. Unlike local justice areas, benches would not be defined in legislation and would have soft boundaries to allow magistrates greater flexibility to sit in other courts. Such courts might actually be closer to where they currently live, but not accessible due to the current hard, legal boundary, and they might offer magistrates a broader range of cases and work than they currently engage in.

Our consultation proposes to align benches broadly with the boundaries of criminal justice areas, which themselves are based on the boundaries of police force areas. As the core business of the criminal magistrates courts involves prosecutions initiated by police forces, we believe that, in most cases, this is a natural fit. Where a given criminal justice area will be too large to create a workable bench—

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I am very interested to hear the Minister mention police forces, because I suspected that that was partly the driver. On community policing, will she recognise that North Wales police have felt the need to separate the area into three—a highly populous area in the east, a middle area, and one in the west, which has a much more scattered population—because that better reflects what the community needs?

[Sarah Sackman]

That is precisely why we have a consultation—to reflect the variation in different parts of the country. In most cases, the criminal justice area and the area in which a police force operates will be a natural fit for a bench, but that will not necessarily work for everyone. We are taking soundings and engaging with local stakeholders to make sure that these soft boundaries, as it were, reflect local circumstances. As I said, this is such a vital debate, and we hope to reflect local contributions in the final set of proposals.

Where a given criminal justice area would be too large to create a workable bench, we have suggested a different model that retains current local justice area boundaries. For example, creating a bench based on the very large geographical area of the Dyfed-Powys criminal justice area in Wales would be impractical. Analysis suggested that it would result in excessively long journey times for certain magistrates—a point that the right hon. Member made. We therefore propose retaining the current local justice area boundaries in that case. On the other hand, where analysis suggested that a criminal justice area could reasonably be used to structure the boundaries of a bench, we have proposed—it is only a proposal, on which we are consulting—merging certain local justice areas. That is the provenance of the benches for north Wales and south Wales.

To reiterate, the point of the consultation is to seek feedback on the proposed model, and gather feedback from magistrates and other stakeholders, such as local leaders, about what will or will not work. The proposed bench configuration is intended as a starting point for this exercise. We are, if I can put it this way, very much in listening mode.

I am aware that magistrates in some benches, including those within the constituency of the right hon. Member, have raised concerns about the proposals, and as ever, she is articulate in setting out the concerns of her constituents and the local considerations. I very much appreciate that she wrote to me in advance of today’s Adjournment debate outlining those concerns, so that we could take them on board in the Ministry of Justice.

I would like to reassure the right hon. Member that her concerns and the concerns of Welsh magistrates have been and will be heard. While I cannot at this juncture confirm the outcome of the consultation—and some of the matters it covers are for the judiciary to determine, not politicians—these concerns and others expressed in the response to our consultation will inform our decisions on the structure for Welsh magistrates courts.

I turn to the question of Welsh language impacts, which are incredibly important in this context. As the right hon. Member has said, a key concern for Welsh-speaking magistrates is the impact of the proposals on the Welsh language. This concern has also been articulated by other members of the Welsh judiciary. At the heart of it is the potential risk that differences in the percentage of Welsh-speaking magistrates in the proposed bench could limit opportunities for Welsh-speaking magistrates or court users to speak Welsh. Let me take this opportunity to assure the House that this Government remain firmly committed to the principle of bilingual provision of court services in Wales, and to the equal treatment of Welsh and English in the delivery of justice in these courts.

Under the proposals, all magistrates would have the chance to discuss their sitting arrangements with their bench chair. Magistrate’s sitting patterns would be decided on a case-by-case basis, taking account of personal circumstances as well as business need. A Welsh-speaking magistrate’s preferences would naturally form part of these discussions. It is certainly not our intention to force Welsh-speaking magistrates to sit in other locations to the extent that it would limit their ability to use Welsh in court.

More broadly, the proposals are intended as a codification of current practice. Magistrates are expected to undertake most of their sittings at the court closest to their home or work location. The overall intention is to minimise as far as possible the extent of practical change to the day-to-day business of magistrates in their local area. Given the continuity in sitting patterns, and the continued provision of interpreters in Welsh magistrates courts, we do not expect the proposals to impact the availability of Welsh language services for court users in Wales. To answer the right hon. Member’s question directly, and to reassure her, a full Welsh language impact assessment will accompany any final proposals.

We will carefully consider the responses we have received from Welsh magistrates and other stakeholders to see what the impact will be on Welsh being spoken in court, and will put in place any mitigations, should they be necessary. We have committed to publishing a full Welsh language impact test alongside the final set of policy decisions, and we expect to publish our response later this year.

I am aware of the issue of the effect that the proposed bench configuration for Wales will have on travel times for magistrates and court users, and concerns about increased journey times and added difficulties for those who, for example, rely on public transport. That concern has also been expressed in some responses to proposals in England; it cuts across the board. We are keen to draw on magistrates’ first-hand knowledge of their local area before finalising any of these boundaries. The ongoing analysis of consultation responses will help us to identify those areas—such as in Wales—where a proposed bench would be excessively large or result in unreasonably long journey times. As the right hon. Member rightly acknowledged, magistrates volunteer and do a fantastic service. We do not want to put barriers in their way; this is about enabling them to carry out their service and be deployed flexibly. It is certainly not intended to impede the vital work that they do.

As for court users, the consultation does not propose any changes to case listing practices. The abolition of local justice areas will, however, make it easier to hear a case in a court closer to a user’s home. We would not therefore expect the new bench or deployment models to result in longer journeys for users. We are nevertheless continually reviewing any potential impacts of the proposals on protected characteristics. Should the data gathered from the consultation responses uncover any previously unforeseen impacts, we will consider revising the proposals to mitigate those.

I thank the right hon. Member once again for raising this issue with her characteristic eloquence and attention to detail. I also thank those who took part in the consultation process and engaged with the proposals. We received 1,400 responses, which is testament to just how much people are engaged on these issues and how much they value the local justice that our magistrates provide. As with any consultation, the dialogue and feedback we have received will be crucial in driving positive outcomes, and I am grateful to all those who have contributed. We are in listening mode, as I said, and we are committed to creating a system that works better for magistrates, court staff and citizens right across England and Wales.

Question put and agreed to.

Trial by Jury: Proposed Restrictions

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 9th July 2025 Commons Chamber

[Sarah Sackman]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We talk about sitting days and backlogs, and it can all sound a little arid and academic, but it comes back to people. The fact that so many victims of rape and serious sexual offences pull out of the process is testament to the fact that the system is not working. That is the direct consequence of allowing the backlogs to run out of control. We have to keep victims engaged in the process, which is why we have invested specifically in victims services and why we are looking to strengthen the victims code. Ultimately, victims want swift justice. That is why we will take a careful look at Sir Brian’s recommendations and do what it takes to bring down the backlog.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Magistrates courts are already under significant stress: some 22% of trials do not go ahead on the day that they are listed. Removing the right to choose a jury trial for sentences of under two years under an intermediate court cannot reverse years of underfunding, the closure of local courts and severe staff shortages, from prosecutors to defence advocates. The consultation on the reform of local justice areas proposes to merge three north Wales benches, against the advice of local magistrates. Does the Minister recognise the risk of yet further disruption to justice in Wales?

[Sarah Sackman]

The right hon. Lady has described how important the role of the magistrates courts will be and the importance of whole-system reform. The Government are not looking to tweak one aspect—to tweak what goes on in the magistrates court or the Crown court. One of the geniuses of the magistrates court is the local link and the fact that it delivers local justice, so we will look at that carefully, but there is no getting away from it: the scale of the problem, and what Sir Brian’s report tells us, means that we need whole-system reform of the criminal justice system, from beginning to end.

Oral Answers to Questions

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Tuesday 8th July 2025 Commons Chamber

[Shabana Mahmood]

I thank my hon. Friend for her question. Under the last Government, between 2019 and 2023, drone sightings around prisons increased by over 770%. As I have said, we are investing £40 million in bolstering security measures in our prisons, and we are currently trialling new anti-drone netting on the long-term, high-security estate to tackle drone incursions.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Prison staff are facing record levels of violence and working in such a toxic environment that, according to the Rademaker review, workers are too afraid to raise complaints about bullying and harassment. Does the Lord Chancellor therefore welcome today’s relaunch of the updated “Safe Inside” prisons charter by the Joint Unions in Prisons Alliance, a coalition of 10 trade unions representing the vast majority of prison staff? If so, will she join us this evening to hear more about safer systems of working in prisons?

[Shabana Mahmood]

I believe the Prisons Minister may well be attending the event that the right hon. Member mentioned. I will happily pick that up in my regular conversations with trade union officials. She is right to highlight the scale of violence across our prison system. We are already taking measures, and I hope that the combination of sentencing reform and investment in our prisons will bring down the level of violence we are currently seeing.

Independent Sentencing Review

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Thursday 22nd May 2025 Commons Chamber

[Shabana Mahmood]

My hon. Friend makes an incredibly powerful point and she is absolutely right. When we have a prison system on the point of collapse, it is not as if the criminals do not know that that is happening. That is why it is imperative that we get our system under control and ensure there is always a prison place available for those who have to be locked up to keep the public safe. Her point about winning votes shows the approach taken by the previous Government: they put themselves first, not the country first.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

On behalf of the justice unions parliamentary group, I welcome the independent review’s recognition of probation officers and join the call from the National Association of Probation Officers for extra direct investment in staff now. Stable accommodation on release is also key to offender rehabilitation. There are presently no approved premises for women in Wales and women centres struggle for funding, so how will the Justice Secretary improve rehabilitation and life chances for Welsh women in the criminal justice system?

[Shabana Mahmood]

I very much hope that the position for Welsh women will be the same as for women in England, which is that we see a huge reduction in the number of women in Wales and England entering the female prison estate. That is because the combination of the measures David Gauke recommends, in particular on short sentences, will mean that fewer women go to prison. I will, of course, work with colleagues across Wales to look at what more we can do on accommodation provision. I know that there is no specific centre in Wales—the right hon. Lady and I have discussed that previously. It was a promise made by the previous Government without any funding attached to it, so I was not able to make decisions when I first came into office that could reverse that, but we will work with the Women’s Justice Board and others to ensure that the offer for women who are now no longer going to prison is still strong and helps them on their rehabilitation journey.

Victims and Courts Bill

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 20th May 2025 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I, too, pay tribute to the hon. Member for Knowsley (Anneliese Midgley) for speaking so movingly about Olivia and her family. I rise primarily to speak about the victim-centred measures in the Bill and would like to take this opportunity to thank the Minister for her engagement with me on this matter and with my constituent Rhianon Bragg, a formidable activist who has done so much work to improve support and services for victims.

The expanded victim contact scheme should see more victims able to get adequate information about their offenders’ sentences and make representations about licence conditions or supervision requirements as they relate to them. Similarly, the victim helpline will give more victims the information they need. I truly welcome those measures, which the UK Government say will cost an extra £0.2 million for HM Prison and Probation Service each year, with updating the victim contact scheme costing £20,000 and the victim helpline costing between £100,000 and £200,000.

I am concerned about whether those costings will be sufficient. As co-chair of the justice unions parliamentary group, I call on the Government to commit to delivering the additional resources necessary for the Probation Service to deal with the inevitable increase in demand, both initially and as victims become more aware that they have these rights. There is a risk of overextending a service that is already in a workload and staffing crisis, at the expense of victims.

Extending the powers of the Victims’ Commissioner is also welcome. Victims should always feel secure that the commissioner can and will do everything in their power to tackle shortcomings where the victims live. That is why I continue my call for a victims’ commissioner for Wales, to represent victims of crimes in the specific context of Wales, where many victim support services and important policy levers, such as those relating to health and social care, are devolved and held to account by the Senedd.

At this point I will mention another aspect of the Bill: the Crown prosecution recruitment. We need personnel in the criminal justice system in Wales who can operate in Welsh and English, so I call on the Government to seek such personnel. Of course, devolving the entire criminal justice system in Wales, as recommended by three independent commissions, would be the best way to ensure a well-focused approach to victim support. In the meantime, a victims’ commissioner for Wales would ensure that the particular voices and experiences of victims in Wales are properly represented. We need only look to the fantastic work done by the London Victims’ Commissioner, Claire Waxman, to see what is possible when we have a focused approach.

The Victims and Courts Bill is a good basis on which to build. There are ways in which it could go further to better support victims, particularly in Wales, and I look forward to seeing how it develops with amendments in Committee.

Recalled Offenders: Sentencing Limits

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Thursday 15th May 2025 Commons Chamber

[Sir Nicholas Dakin]

We are improving the prison estate and investing in probation, and there will also be actions coming forward from the independent sentencing review. I agree with everything my hon. Friend said.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Victims of domestic abuse, sexual abuse and stalking are now in fear, particularly those who live in rural areas, where tagging does not always work. What particular measures will the Minister put in place to support victims in rural areas who are distant from probation officers and the police?

[Sir Nicholas Dakin]

Anybody subject to a fixed-term recall will be recalled for 28 days, and if their risk is assessed as greater, they will be transferred to a standard recall. The reality is that anybody affected by this has already served their time in prison; they are on licence, being properly monitored and effectively managed by the Probation Service.

Protection of Prison Staff

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Monday 12th May 2025 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

As co-chair of the justice unions parliamentary group, I know that unions have been raising the problem of safety and violence against staff in prisons for years under the previous Government, which underfunded them and let them down. Will the Minister commit to meet unions at the launch in July of the newly updated “Safe Inside” prisons charter developed by the Joint Unions in Prisons Alliance, a coalition of nine unions representing workers in prisons, and that His Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service will accept the recommendations in the charter?

[Sir Nicholas Dakin]

I am happy to meet those unions and the right hon. Member on the charter. Obviously, until we see the charter, it is difficult to know where things are going on that, but I am sure that HMPPS will be proactive in working with all the associations on getting the charter right.

Sentencing Council Guidelines

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Tuesday 1st April 2025 Commons Chamber

[Shabana Mahmood]

Who can say? I suggest asking any of the Conservative Members here whether they have an answer to that, but they appear to still wish to live on another planet and never reckon with their own track record in government.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Black people in Wales were the most over-represented ethnic group in prison in 2023, followed by those from a mixed background and people belonging to an Asian ethnic group. That over-representation is worse in Wales than in England. Pre-sentencing reports can help us to understand why people of black and minority ethnic backgrounds are more likely to be sent to prison. Even if she disagrees with the method, surely the Secretary of State agrees that action is necessary to tackle evidenced inequality within the criminal justice system, so what solutions is she bringing forward?

[Shabana Mahmood]

The proper role of a pre-sentence report is to give a judge who is about to pass down a sentence vital information about the context of that offender—for example, whether there has been domestic abuse, their age and other vital factors relevant to the offending behaviour—so that the judge can make a decision about the best sentence to pass. The pre-sentence report is not about setting right any other wrongs that exist, however legitimate they are—that is not the point of the pre-sentence report—but about giving the sentencer in every single individual case the information that they need, such as whether a woman is pregnant or has recently given birth, as the Court of Appeal upheld recently. Those circumstances should be properly understood by judges. The position in law is that a pre-sentence report should be sought by judges in all cases, unless the court considers it unnecessary to do so. That covers the majority of cases where a pre-sentence report should be sought, but we should not confuse the proper role of what the pre-sentence report is there to do.

To the extent that there are over-representations, I see them too. Over 70% of my constituents are non-white and, as the right hon. Lady can see, I am from an ethnic minority background myself, and I am also from a faith minority. I see those disparities—they are a lived reality of my own life—but I am not prepared to sacrifice the principle of equality before the law to put those disparities right. I wish to be more curious than anybody else has been in previous years about what lies behind those disparities, and about what are the proper levers that have to be pulled to put them right. We often discuss judicial diversity, but I am not sure that increases in diversity have necessarily led to a change in what the underlying data shows. Clearly, there is more going on. Any solutions that politicians come up with have to be tested in the House, because they are properly the domain of policy and Parliament.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-eighth sitting)

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

I call Liz Saville Roberts.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Diolch yn fawr—thank you very much, Ms McVey. I rise to speak to clause 32 stand part and to new clauses 36 and 37.

It is gratifying that everybody on the Committee has taken so seriously the need to recognise where the powers lie in relation to the Senedd in Wales and Welsh Ministers, and Westminster and the Secretary of State. The evidence we heard from Professor Emyr Lewis is that clause 32 would contravene the Sewel convention by giving the UK Government powers of regulation to provide an assisted dying service in the NHS in Wales.

I am very appreciative of the way in which we have discussed the matter. This is, of course, a private Member’s Bill; by the nature of the subject it is discussing, it is unprecedented since devolution in 1999. As we talk about constitutional matters and the Sewel convention, it is important to remember what we are doing as a Bill Committee: we are trying to make sure that we tease out the questions about the environment in which all these services will be provided, and that we are giving people who are at the most vulnerable time in their life the appropriate protection and the appropriate autonomy. That is what we should always be balancing.

New clause 36, which relates to England, and new clause 37 certainly appear—I use the word with as much generosity as I can—to clarify the responsibilities as between Welsh Ministers and Secretaries of State. My amendments would go through the Bill clause by clause and would then insert a definition into clause 40, rather than making a broad statement as the new clauses do.

Although we have debated the content of new clause 36, I believe strongly that it is not for us in Westminster to specify how Welsh Ministers may make provision for those areas over which they have responsibility. It is appropriate that we have a debate, because that raises awareness of the potential for a legislative consent motion or motions. It is appropriate to have that discussion; it is also appropriate to be aware that there may be a discussion about the commencement date and the implications, which we will address in the debate on a later amendment.

I am looking particularly at Wales, and new clause 37 would do what my amendments were attempting: it would give us future-proofing. The powers that have been granted to the Senedd in Wales are considerably different, and lesser in their extent, than those that have been granted to Scotland and to Northern Ireland. That may well change in future, and new clause 37 would allow for that.

I put it on the record that I await further discussions between Welsh Ministers and the hon. Member for Spen Valley, although I understand that some have already taken place. It is already on the record that UK Ministers, the Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham and I will have further discussions as we move ahead. There will be opportunities on Report to do what the Committee is trying to achieve, which is to future-proof the legislation and ensure that it works as effectively as possible.

I welcome the changes that the new clauses would make. Clause 32, as it stands, does not recognise the constitutional arrangements of the United Kingdom, and it is important that we do that.

[Kim Leadbeater]

I thank the right hon. Lady for her constructive and collegiate approach to the Committee, particularly on devolution. I have contacted the Welsh Government and am keen to speak to them when Committee proceedings have finished. They have said that they are happy to do that. I am keen to continue to work with the right hon. Lady and other colleagues on devolution to ensure that we get the Bill right for the people of England and Wales.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I appreciate the hon. Lady’s comments. I think there is a lesson to be learned. I understand that the legislation is unprecedented in coming through the private Member’s Bill route. After this, we will have to think about how we deal with such legislation because we are feeling our way. I appreciate the opportunity to work with the co-operation of colleagues on something for which there is no road map, but I fear, although I also appreciate, that we are making the road map as we go.

[Daniel Francis]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms McVey. I genuinely did not intend to speak today, but the debate, particularly the speech by the hon. Member for Richmond Park and the intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Luton South and South Bedfordshire, has brought me to my feet.

It was 13 or 14 years ago that my wife and I embarked on the IVF road. It never worked—our children came naturally in the end—but I know the pain and despair of that process. Although I do not call into question the efficacy of any doctor, some companies, looking to their profit margins, will always prey on people.

We have had discussions today about the regulations to be made under new clause 36, but we need some clarity on Report. I referred to the annual fertility show at the Kensington Olympia; I have checked, and it is still held. I visited it about 13 years ago. Frankly, it is complete marketisation. People who are already on their knees and really depressed are left feeling that companies are simply trying to make a profit out of them. People can already book their tickets for the event in May and navigate a path through it: there are expert-led seminars, real stories, whereby people connect with others who have been through the process, wellbeing workshops and more than 70 exhibitors. Of course, they are all paying a fee to be there, and they all aim to have made a profit by the end.

Our first set of IVF treatment was free on the NHS. We paid £7,000 for our second, which was again through the NHS. We went through several visits to NHS and private providers to assess whether we were willing to pay a top-up for a slightly better service. I really did not intend to speak this morning, but I wonder whether, in the final part of the process that we are considering, there would be the sort of upsetting process that has taken root in the fertility industry in this country. We need more clarity on that by Report.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-sixth sitting)

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 19th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Danny Kruger]

I hope my right hon. Friend will understand that there is a difference between occupying one’s own home and living in a community under conditions set by somebody else, which is what happens if someone lives in a care home. There are terms and conditions. People have to comply with the rules of the place and have obligations to their fellow residents. In someone’s own home, whether they are living with a partner or not, they have absolute rights. That is the difference. If someone signs up to live in a care home, they have to follow the rules of the place, just like in a hotel. In someone’s own home, they can do what they like, as I am sure my right hon. Friend does.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

We should acknowledge the reasons that people go into residential and nursing care homes. They go into them because they need day-to-day help to live. Would the hon. Gentleman reconsider what he has just said? It seems to fundamentally discriminate between people who are able to live at home, have families or carers around them and can operate in that way and people who need to go into residential, and particularly nursing, homes.

[Danny Kruger]

The right hon. Lady clarifies the point very well. I concede—that is right. When someone goes to live in a care home, they yield, by necessity, a whole set of freedoms that one has in one’s own home. That is the consequence of the stage of life they are at, the conditions they have, and indeed their own choice to live in that particular care home.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

They might not have one.

[Danny Kruger]

I appreciate that—there might be very little choice or no alternative. I am speaking in terms of the reality of life. We can do everything we can through the law to obviate reality—to give people as much autonomy as possible, even though they are very dependent on other people. That is why it is so important to consider the autonomy of the elderly, the frail and people with disabilities or who are ill. They require other people to give them what fully healthy and able-bodied people are able to do for themselves. I recognise that I am suggesting that somebody who lives in a care home would not have the same freedom of action as somebody living in their own home.