Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Brennan of Canton Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Monday 12th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Freeman of Steventon (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak briefly on the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. I will be brief partly because it is such a simple amendment: it would just put the principle of the transparency of these models in the Bill. We need to know what goes into these models for two reasons. The first is so that any form of copyright can be prosecuted. At the moment, how can we know that even our current copyright rules have been broken if we do not know what goes into these models? It does not matter whether the Government are thinking about changing the copyright rules. Whatever copyright rules we have, we need to know what is being used in the models.

The second reason is the outputs of these models. We need to know on what they were trained in order to know their strengths and weaknesses. The noble Lord, Lord Vallance, himself said this in answer to a question from my noble friend Lady Coussins during Oral Questions on Tuesday: if the data that has gone into the model is not transparent, we cannot ascertain its strengths and weaknesses without extensive proxy measurements and probing.

On these two principles, it is vital that this simple amendment goes through today. That it has some added benefits from being able to legislate separately for small and medium-sized enterprises, micro-businesses and UK businesses just adds to the fact that this amendment has been carefully crafted to give us exactly what we need in the Bill today.

[Lord Brennan of Canton (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, posed an appropriate question: what would Shakespeare make of AI? The answer is rather like the proverbial million monkeys on their typewriter: so far they have failed to produce a credible version of Shakespeare, but they have produced several improved versions of The Art of the Deal, as far as I can ascertain.

I too will speak to the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the government amendments that came back from the House of Commons. I thank the Minister for her engagement on this and the briefing that she gave earlier today to noble friends, other colleagues and noble Peers across the House, and my very good personal friend Minister Chris Bryant, whose charismatic presence I felt around us earlier—almost as if he was observing our proceedings.

I also thank the Secretary of State for having confirmed, via a third party in last weekend’s press, that the Government have changed their position on having the opt-out in the consultation as their preferred position. It would be helpful if the Minister could confirm that on the Floor of the House today, because I believe that is an accurate position and an accurate assessment, even though it was delivered via a spokesperson rather than directly by the Secretary of State. It is a very helpful change, and I welcome the movement the Government have made in the amendments they put forward. I note that it is part of Motion 49A that we accept the government amendments to produce the reports that were mentioned.

I declare that I am a member of the Ivors Academy and the Musicians’ Union, and draw attention to my entry in the register. Creative remuneration was one of the central issues that I worked on as a parliamentarian for the 23 years I was in the House of Commons, certainly while I was on the Front Bench in opposition, as a member of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee, as it was then, and as the sponsor of a Private Member’s Bill in the Commons. Although it did not get into law, the Copyright (Rights and Remuneration of Musicians, Etc.) Bill had a significant influence and led, for example, to the creation of the remuneration committee, which is currently sitting within the offices of the Intellectual Property Office. Strong efforts are being made, with very strong engagement from Minister Chris Bryant, to hold to account everyone concerned in the music industry to improve remuneration for creators, and particularly for musicians, which is my interest.

This is not just about rights holders. I have never understood why anybody in the creative industries could, for example, start off with a love of music and creativity but become an executive in the creative industries and think that they are worthy of being paid more than the people who actually create the wonderful content that the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, was speaking about earlier. How can a music industry executive reward themselves with a greater remuneration than the entire remuneration of every songwriter in this country? There is only one explanation: by the personal attrition of their soul—but that is another matter altogether.

The Bill is an opportunity. The key point is that obviously the elected House should have its way—I strongly believe that, as a former Member—but it is important that this House has its say along the way and that transparency is key. We cannot enforce copyright and rights holders cannot enforce their rights unless there is transparency. This Bill, this bus, is an opportunity that the Government should be getting on rather than waiting for another bus several years down the road, in the form of some future primary legislation. I hope that there is an opportunity for a compromise and that, should we send these amendments back to the other place, the Government look for a way to give a commitment towards ensuring that, through the Bill, they can take powers to regulate on transparency in the near future.

I was fortunate enough last week to accompany—this is an absolutely blatant name-drop—Björn Ulvaeus of Abba.

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)]

Oh no!

[Lord Brennan of Canton (Lab)]

I note that the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, objects. He would never do such a thing himself. I am glad he introduced me to the founder of Motown Records on one occasion in these Corridors, so he would never do something similar himself.

As I showed him the Royal Gallery, he took particular interest in one of the frescoes and asked me, “Who is that in that fresco speaking to the Duke of Wellington?” I said, “Well, that’s Marshal Blücher, of course, the head of the Prussian army at—”, and suddenly the penny dropped. I said to him, “Somebody should write a song about that”, and he said, “Yes, that’s a great idea. It could be a metaphor for a love affair”. I said, “I’m surprised no one’s thought of that before”—and we never mentioned the word “Waterloo” once.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Brennan of Canton Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Monday 19th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, I have two brief points in answer to things that both the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross, and Chris Bryant have said in the last week, and that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, has said today. First, when the Government say that the Bill is not the right vehicle for my noble friend Lady Kidron’s amendment, one has to profoundly disagree. Concerns of copyright are integral to the use and access of data; you cannot prise the two things apart. Let us make no mistake: this amendment belongs in the Bill, and the enacted Bill belongs in law.

The second point revolves around the principle of the argument. The Government themselves believe that there is an issue with copyright and that there should be much greater transparency. When Chris Bryant says we need to look at these things in the round and not piecemeal, I agree entirely. If we agree between ourselves that something is right, and that that right is not previously enabled in law, we should pass the law, and the principle will find the solution. We do not legalise things that are criminally wrong because they cannot at the present time be sufficiently policed. Having this in law will speed up the solution. Not having it in law inevitably means that we will drag our feet for who knows how long. That will be to the detriment of the creative industries, as creators such as Elton John know full well and are rightly angry about. We agreed on the principle that this is the right thing to do—make it law.

[Lord Brennan of Canton (Lab)]

My Lords, it is in some sadness that I rise again to talk on this matter. I thank Government Ministers for the very positive way in which they have engaged with my noble friends and me to discuss how to make some progress and find some kind of compromise on this matter in the Bill.

I completely accept that the Commons voted overwhelmingly to reject the amendment originally in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, which we sent to them last week. As Disraeli said:

“A majority is always the best repartee”,


but it is sad if you simply rely on a majority in order to have your way when others are trying to have their say. I would welcome the Government doing a little bit more listening, because this amendment moves quite a long way towards what the Government are saying.

When the Commons debated this matter last week, a number of us went down to watch in person what the reaction was like in the Chamber. I have to say that there was a considerable amount of disquiet from the Government Benches about the direction of travel and there were a considerable number of interventions on and questions asked of the Minister, Chris Bryant. I thought he was extremely generous in the way he gave way and entertained those questions and interventions from Members of the House of Commons. He said in the course of his remarks,

“we all agree that we should introduce transparency measures”.—[Official Report, Commons, 14/5/25; col. 422.]

Those were the words that he uttered on the Floor of the House of Commons. Ministers have said to us elsewhere, and we accept, that you cannot have remuneration without transparency—unless you are an AI company, in which case you do not have to reveal what you are training your models on, even if you use the intellectual property of others. We cannot have a double standard on this matter.

My noble friend the Minister made a point that Ministers and others have made on a number of occasions: we cannot ring-fence ourselves from the rest of the world. That is true—we live in a highly interconnected world—but the whole history of copyright has been about leadership, having high standards and showing why intellectual property is a source of economic growth. This country has shown leadership throughout history in relation to copyright and setting the highest standards to try to drag people up to our level, rather than simply putting up the flag of surrender and going down to the levels of the rest of the world. I fear there is a view that we have to allow AI companies to do anything they want because otherwise they will just go and do it somewhere else. Surely we should show some leadership on this. If anyone did not have the pleasure, as I did, of listening to my noble friend Lord Bragg’s “In Our Time” programme on Radio 4 about the history of copyright, I recommend that they go back and listen to it on BBC Sounds, including the additional conversation that went on afterwards.

My preference, as I made clear last week and have made clear to Ministers, is that if Ministers cannot accept the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, they come back with their own amendment in lieu that at the very least makes sure that Ministers are given a permissive power to require transparency. That can be a “may” instead of a “must”; I know that would not be satisfactory to everybody, but a reasonable concession is needed that provides Ministers with a backstop power that will focus the minds of all concerned on the need to deal with this issue without waiting for a piece of primary legislation—a vehicle that may be some considerable way down the road, even if commitments are made by Ministers.

If these amendments are carried today, I hope the Government will come back with their own amendment in lieu to enable there to be a backstop power, even if it is not exactly the amendment we are considering today. That would go a great way towards providing the level playing field we should have for our creative industries.

[Baroness Harding of Winscombe (Con)]

My Lords, it seems that the Government are relying on two arguments to reject the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. The first is that regulating AI is such a big, complex problem that we cannot deal with one bit; we have to deal with it all. The second is that it is so big that it is global, so we cannot do anything local. The noble Lord, Lord Brennan, just demolished the global argument, so I am sure noble Lords are pleased that I am not going to repeat his arguments.

I want to demolish the first argument as well, which is that we should wait to do everything in one place on AI. That is for old-world technology, not new, agile technology. If we are going to regulate the digital world, we will need to test and learn. We will need to regulate through things that are necessary, even though we know that they are not sufficient. I have not heard a single argument from the Government in any place suggesting that transparency is not necessary. It is necessary, so this amendment is necessary; it is not sufficient to regulate this extraordinary, groundbreaking technology called AI, but that does not mean we should not regulate now in this way and build on it. I am afraid we will debate AI in this Chamber for decades to come, but that does not mean that we should reject this amendment. Like the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, I hope that the other place and the Government will hear the cross-party support for the work that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has been doing and bring back something listening to what we have to say.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Brennan of Canton Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Monday 2nd June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Baker of Dorking (Con)]

My Lords, this is the first time I have spoken on this measure, because I had assumed that, after the Bill had gone to the House of Commons, it would accept the arguments that have been adduced in this place in the previous debates and realise that this is not only a wrong Bill but a very harmful one for the creative talents in our countries.

What I find particularly strange about it is that it is totally alien to the attitude taken by the Labour Party since 1900. In 1900, the trade unions and the early people—the Fabians—were totally in favour of supporting British culture. No one was more so, strangely enough, than Keir Hardie. One of my grandfathers knew Keir Hardie. My grandfather was the secretary of a trade union, and got the post because he was one of the few dock workers who could read and write. He became a friend of Keir Hardie, who often stayed with him when he came down to Newport. My grandfather persuaded Keir Hardie to realise that, if the lot of the working class was really to be improved, and they were able to enjoy the great culture of Britain, they first had to read and be easy in reading. That has been one of the main features of the Labour Party since 1900. The party has been prominent in that and takes great pride in it.

In 1936, when Allen Lane published the first Penguin—a paperback book that cost only sixpence—it was a revolution, and Clement Attlee recognised it as such. The cost of a hardbound book with a dust jacket was £1. How could a working man in 1936—when the average wage of a labourer was only £5 a week—afford a book costing £1? Clement Attlee realised that that was a real revolution and spoke out in favour of it, and when he became Prime Minister after the war the Arts Council was set up. In the first Labour Government, from 1964 to 1970, Jennie Lee became the first Minister for the Arts. Not only that but she trebled the amount of money that the Arts Council had and did much to promote the National Theatre—she laid the foundation stone of it.

So Labour has always in its history supported culture, British culture and creative people. This is directly against the tradition of Labour, and it should realise that. Where are the spokesmen on the Back Benches in this House or in the House of Commons who are getting up and supporting the Government? They do not exist, as far as I can see. Does anybody on the Labour Back Benches want to get up and support the Government? The noble Lord, Lord Cashman, is going to support the amendment—they should have the courage to follow him.

The Minister did not really talk about the damage that could be done to the creative talents of our country, but perhaps she could look at last week’s Times Literary Supplement, in which there are eight articles by British authors, all of whom are very worried by this. They fear that they are having their particular characteristics taken away and stolen for nothing, and they will not be able to earn a living. One of those writers is Katherine Rundell, a fellow of All Souls and a quite brilliant writer of children’s fantasy books. Another great writer, Ishiguro, has also attacked the Bill, as has Salman Rushdie, the most read English writer in the world. So where are the supporters for this proposal?

The Minister should stop listening to the large tech companies in America, many of which have existed for only four years, and listen to the great cultural experts in our country, who are celebrating a culture that extends over 1,000 years. That is what we should be proud of. The Government should realise that this is a wrong Bill and a disgraceful Bill, and I do not think that a wrong and disgraceful Bill should lie on our statute books.

[Lord Brennan of Canton (Lab)]

Like the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, I, too, have an aversion to ping-pong, having spent 23 years in the House of Commons and having been a Minister—and having experienced it overnight, with people having to sleep in their offices. Often, it became more “pong” than “ping”, after that extended period of time.

In this instance, there is a lot of justification for your Lordships’ House insisting on the Government taking another look and perhaps coming forward with their own compromise, which many noble Lords have called for. I very much welcome the tone taken by the Secretary of State in the House of Commons, who spoke at the Dispatch Box himself on that occasion to admit that errors may have been made in issuing the consultation and in the position taken by the Government then, which may have triggered a lot of the debate we are having on the Bill.

Although he is also a Gwent boy, I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Baker, who said that this is a terrible Bill. It is not a terrible Bill, but it does have a massive lacuna: the issue of AI and its impact on creators and their livelihoods. It is a matter of livelihoods, of people paying their rent, as the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, said.

I also welcome the tone of and comments made by my noble friend the Minister in her opening remarks. I welcome what she said about enforcement, economic impact assessments and committing to bring forward a report in six rather than nine months. Those are all welcome additional commitments that we have not necessarily heard before. However, she felt that not adding these amendments or something similar to the Bill would give greater certainty, and here, I disagree with her. She said that creative industries and the tech industries want certainty. In my view, certainty would be provided if we accepted today’s amendment, or indeed the previous amendments the noble Baroness has proposed, because they give greater certainty to everyone that copyright will be enforced in this country and that the means to enforce it will be available through greater transparency.

Last Thursday, some of us in this place—I refer to my declaration of interests, including as a member of the Ivors Academy—went along to the Ivor Novello awards, which celebrates the great songwriters and composers of this country. Ivor Novello, whose original name was Ivor Davies, was born in my old constituency of Cardiff West, and there is a plaque on the very street around the corner from my house indicating where he was born. The Ivor Novello awards are a reminder that we are world leaders in creativity, as other noble Lords have said, and that we are net exporters of that creativity. Our great creativity is a foreign currency earner for this country, and we should not get into bed with anyone who seeks to undermine that.

The amendment being put forward by the noble Baroness is a modest amendment—some might say too modest, compared to what could be done if the Government came forward with their own in lieu. But that is exactly what the Government should do: they should make their case, rather than invoking financial privilege on every occasion. Although it is the Commons’ right to do that, in my view the argument should be made. If this is the wrong pathway, why is it the wrong pathway? Transparency is what is needed, and it is needed now.

[Lord Freyberg (CB)]

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and I declare my interest as an artist member of DACS. In the United States, a revealing battle is under way, not only about competing with China but about whose interests AI regulation should serve. Thirty-one US states have passed AI laws. They understand that transparency does not stifle innovation; it enables it by providing certainty and accountability. So fierce is federal resistance that House Republicans now seek to roll back state AI laws entirely, imposing a decade-long moratorium. AI experts call this an abdication of responsibility, yet the states persist, introducing 550 new Bills this year alone.

We face the same choice. For years, we condemned China’s intellectual property theft, the foundation of its economic rise. Now, we permit Silicon Valley the same privilege. The Government’s wait-and-see prevarication is inexplicable. This amendment demands transparency alone: no new law, no regulatory burden, simply the right to know when your work is taken. This amendment grants the Government complete discretion over enforcement and preserves their consultation. It demands only visibility. This is a test of whether we uphold the rule of law in the age of AI by giving creators the simple right to see who is taking their work. I therefore urge the House to support this amendment.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Brennan of Canton Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Wednesday 4th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Brennan of Canton (Lab)]

My Lords, I have supported the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, throughout in her amendments, but, as a former Member of the elected House, I think we reach a very difficult juncture today in insisting on an amendment which I think we all know and agree is actually inadequate. It is a modest, moderate amendment that will not do the job that all of us who have been supporting the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, throughout would like to see done: namely, to guarantee the transparency that is needed in order to protect copyright into the future.

As a former Member of the elected House, and despite agreeing entirely with all the arguments that have been made, I find it very difficult to walk through the Lobby when the elected House, of which I was a Member for 23 years, has clearly rejected the proposal that we are now considering again today to send back to that House. In saying that, I want to say to the Government that I hope that they have listened intently to the debates that we have had in this House and all the points that have been raised, and I hope that they are aware of the emergency that we are describing in this House.

I went this morning, as I did yesterday, to visit and have a look at the South by Southwest conference taking place in Shoreditch, in north London. If you go through the Tube station at Old Street, you will encounter a number of advertisements for AI companies with the slogan, “Stop Hiring Humans”. Now I am a member of the Labour Party and for us in the Labour Party, one of the reasons why we have been putting through measures such as the Employment Rights Bill is because we believe in the dignity of labour, and in the importance of people being rewarded for their labour. That includes those who work freelance or who depend on their intellectual property for their income.

I want the Government to think, when they are engaging with these companies, “Who are we getting into bed with on some of these occasions? Who are the people we are perhaps unnecessarily favouring and giving privileged access to in government? What are their intentions for the future of labour, the workforce, pay and conditions, the dignity of people in work and the right for them to protect their intellectual property?”

What is happening right now, for example, in the music industry? Just last weekend, the four major record labels announced that they were in negotiations. Rather, it was revealed, they did not announce it, that they were in negotiations with apps such as Suno, which I have on my phone, which will create—not create, generate—for you. It does not create anything, it is just a desiccated calculating machine, but it will generate for you a piece of music within 30 seconds that is a facsimile of human creativity. It is not very good, but it is astonishing at the same time, as a piece of technology.

What will happen is that the major labels will go into negotiations. They would have had a stronger hand, actually, in some ways, if the Government could have found their way to support the amendments that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, put forward—but they will go into those negotiations. In fact, they will probably come to some kind of deal where they will agree some kind of licence. It will not be a very lucrative one, because their power at the moment is weak, unless Governments start standing up for the right of intellectual property. In exchange, they will try to take a bit of equity in those businesses.

The people who will be left out of the room—as usual—will be the creators. The big labels will be in there. The Lucian Grainges of this world will be in there. He recently paid himself more in one year than every songwriter in this country as the head of Universal. The Musicians’ Union will not be represented in there. Equity will not be represented in there. The Writers’ Guild will not be represented in there. The representatives of visual artists will not be represented in those talks. As usual, the deal that is done will favour those people who have control over some of those rights and will leave out the creators from those talks.

I urge the Government, in what has come of all this, to make use of a thing that was created and actually came out of a Bill that I introduced and from the work of a Select Committee in the other place in the last Parliament, namely the Intellectual Property Office, the creators’ round table, which has been created by this Government. I give credit to Minister Bryant for taking it very seriously and pushing people hard to make sure that creators are remunerated. I urge the Government to make use of that and to make sure that they insist that creators are represented in these discussions going forward, and that they use all the leverage they can to ensure that that happens.

Taking on board what the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, said, I completely agree with what she said about her voice. We should introduce new rights for creators—it is not original but I always call them VINL rights: voice, imagine, name and likeness rights—to ensure that people’s voice, image, name and likeness cannot be stolen and used by others to make a profit without them being properly consulted and rewarded for that. There is good to come out of this. Although I cannot walk through the Lobby with the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, today, because I believe that, if the elected House insists on not accepting this amendment —we all agree, I think, that it is not a strong amendment—

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

Does not my noble friend appreciate that sending this amendment back to the elected House will, for the first time, give it a choice? There has been no choice for anybody in the elected House. There has been no government amendment; it has just been yes or no. Sending this back forces a choice, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, said. It cannot be sent back again. I speak as someone who did 27 years there and suffered ping-pong, but I am sticking with the noble Baroness today.

[Lord Brennan of Canton (Lab)]

I have enormous respect for my noble friend and find myself agreeing with him about a great number of things. However, it could be sent back with an amendment in lieu from the Government—that is true—as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, pointed out, because this is not double insistence. I feel, and always felt in my 23 years in the other place, that, once the elected House has taken a strong view on a particular amendment, it should be accepted by the unelected House. That is my view, even if it is not the view of my noble friend.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I will be mercifully brief. We have heard a lot of powerful eloquence about property rights, both in this debate and in the days that preceded it. There is much in that to agree with. I hope that those who have spoken so well on this topic today will speak up as enthusiastically when the property rights of others who are perhaps less good at presenting their case are threatened with theft—for example, via the compulsory purchase coming to this House soon.