Abu Qatada

Keith Vaz Excerpts

Tuesday 17th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

I thank my hon. Friend for his words. I have set out a very brief description of the assurances that we have received; more details will obviously be put forward to the Special Immigration Appeals Commission at the deportation hearing. One of the key changes that has taken place in Jordan involves explicit changes to the constitution that outlaw the use of evidence that has been gained by torture.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

I welcome the Home Secretary’s statement. I also congratulate her on the efforts that she has made, and especially on her visit to Jordan. Will she tell us the exact date on which she received the assurances from Jordan that satisfied her that a deal could be made? What worries me are the 15 other cases that she has told the House about today. At the Brighton conference, we need to establish a fast-track system so that cases involving dangerous people in this country can be fast-tracked through the European Court as well as through our own courts. That has been the view of successive Governments as far as Abu Qatada is concerned.

[Mrs May]

The answer to the first part of the right hon. Gentleman’s question is: after he issued his press release last week.

[Keith Vaz]

I knew first.

[Mrs May]

No. The right hon. Gentleman is suggesting that he knew first, but we were still in discussions with the Jordanian Government about the assurances and, as I have made clear in my statement, the work will continue. We have assurances, we are confident in the case that we have, and we will continue to work with the Jordanian authorities.

On the right hon. Gentleman’s question about the wider use of deportation with assurances, one of the issues that my right hon. and learned Friend the Justice Secretary and others across Government have been working on in relation to changes to the European Court is the efficiency of the Court. Another issue relates to subsidiarity and the relationship between national courts and the European Court. It is on those issues that I believe we will see some movement this week.

Oral Answers to Questions

Keith Vaz Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

The latest figures for migration from various parts of the world that have been published are publicly available but they do not go up to the date that my hon. Friend has requested. We are aware of the issue of EU migration, which is why when we came into government we committed to ensuring that any future new member states entering the European Union would have transitional controls placed on them—something that the previous Labour Government failed to do for those early new entrants to the EU such as Poland.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

Having effective border controls means preventing the wrong people from coming in and removing undesirable people from this country. The Home Secretary has just come back from Jordan, where she met the King. She was given cast-iron guarantees about the treatment of Abu Qatada were he to return to Jordan, so why is Mr Abu Qatada still in this country?

[Mrs May]

The right hon. Gentleman makes certain claims for what happened when I was in Jordan. We had very positive and constructive discussions with a number of representatives of the Jordanian Government and I had the privilege and pleasure of meeting the King. Further work is being undertaken by the lawyers as we speak. As I have said before to hon. Members, my intention is to ensure that when we are able to deport Abu Qatada as we all want to be able to do, we are able to make that deportation sustainable.

Protection of Freedoms Bill

Keith Vaz Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

Does the Home Office have any statistics on the number of times that police officers have entered using the powers that they already have?

[James Brokenshire]

What I can point the right hon. Gentleman to is the published list of the various powers of entry that we analysed, as it indicates that the total number of powers for all agencies is between about 1,300 and 1,400. That is obviously quite a significant number, hence the reason why in our judgment the analysis, the review and the measures in the Bill are appropriate, given that the proliferation has expanded considerably over the past few years. As I indicated, about 100 new powers of entry were created under the previous Government, hence the reasons for the measures in the Bill and why we feel that the mechanism contemplated by the Lords amendments does not quite fit or work in terms of what is required.

There will undoubtedly be other circumstances, not contemplated by the Lords in their amendments, in which an exception to the general rule should apply. The key point is that without examining each power individually we simply have no way of knowing whether the amendments add necessary safeguards to the overbearing powers of a state official or stymie the operation of a vital tool designed to protect the public.

Given the acceptance of the need for exemptions, it might be tempting simply to add to the list of those officials who are exempt from the requirement to obtain a warrant or the consent of the occupier, but that approach is mistaken. In recognising the need for exemptions, we should not then rush to apply blanket exemptions. Naming specific officials, in the manner of the amendments, grants such persons free rein to operate without the need to consider a warrant or the occupier’s consent, regardless of the purpose for which the officials are seeking to gain entry. That is too broad an exemption.

Interestingly, in the other place the Opposition supported the amendments, but are they really arguing that trading standards officers should, in all circumstances, be able to exercise their powers of entry without the consent of the occupier, or on the authority of a warrant? We shall have to wait and see what the official Opposition say in response to those points, reflecting on the debate that took place in the other place.

Such an exemption might also give that person immunity from the review we intend to undertake, and that simply is not desirable. We want to review all powers of entry, including powers exercised by constables and by trading standards officers, but the presence of such people in the situation under discussion proves unequivocally that the amendments do not work.

It has been suggested that amendment 17 offers the necessary flexibility by authorising entry without consent or a warrant

“where the authority using the power can demonstrate that the aim of the use of the power would be frustrated if a warrant or agreement were sought”.

But such a provision would simply create confusion and uncertainty, as it would open up the exercise of a power of entry to legal challenge by an aggrieved occupier who might argue that the requirement to enter the premises in question would not have been frustrated if he had been asked to consent or if a warrant had been applied for.

I hope that my remarks make it clear that the Government are not simply inviting this House to disagree with the amendments and then leave it at that. As I have said, we support the principle that in the great majority of cases powers of entry in respect of domestic premises should indeed be exercised only with consent or on the authority of a warrant, but the way to achieve that is through the existing provisions in this part of the Bill. Clause 40, for example, allows us to add safeguards to powers of entry such as a requirement to obtain an occupier’s consent, providing reasonable notice, or getting a warrant before entering a person’s house. The new code of practice under clause 47 will govern the exercise of powers of entry and set out further safeguards to protect the rights of individuals and businesses.

The duty to review powers of entry under clause 42 will require Ministers to examine all the powers for which they are responsible and report to Parliament on the outcome of that review. The reports of these reviews will indicate whether individual powers are no longer justified and should therefore be repealed or retained but with the addition of better safeguards.

[Keith Vaz]

Is there a timetable for the conclusion of the review of previous powers? It would be helpful to know, before we pass any further legislation, what the result of the review entailed.

[James Brokenshire]

If the right hon. Gentleman refers to the Bill, he will see that the time period contemplated is two years, in order to allow proper consideration of all the relevant 1,300 to 1,400 powers of entry. This is not something that will simply lie in abeyance. The review of all powers must be completed within two years of Royal Assent, and we have said that we will report back to Parliament every six months to provide an update on progress, so there will be a steady updating process. I hope that that gives him comfort. I also highlight to him the Home Office gateway, which provides an ongoing check and balance in relation to new powers of entry, as well as the ability to review existing powers of entry that may be triggered as a consequence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Keith Vaz]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), who eloquently reminds us that an Englishman’s home is indeed his castle and that it is vital that it be protected from an overactive state. I have great sympathy with what he said.

I support what the Government are doing in the review. As we heard from my right hon. Friend the shadow Policing Minister, that was the position of the last Government, even though, as we were reminded, the number of powers has been increased—by 600, the Minister said—in the past 13 years. I am sure that if he consults the relevant Hansard reports, he will see that I voted for most, if not all, of the additions. Had it not been for the general election, the noble Lord West would have completed his review. I too would like the review to be completed within the two years. It is easy for parliamentarians to set deadlines that they perhaps know cannot be met and put further burdens on Ministers, but it would be helpful if the review could be conducted within that period.

I am not sure by what mechanisms the review will be conducted. Will it be conducted by a joint committee of Ministers and will it include officials of various Departments? Clearly the Home Office will take the lead, but is there merit in commissioning—to use a word that will become of great interest to people—outside Government and allowing academics or practitioners to be involved in the process, so that it is not just Home Office officials but those who deal daily with the conduct of these matters? I would be interested to know how that will take place. It might help to speed up the review if it is taken out of Government and given to someone else to look at.

My second question relates to the update that the Minister is proposing the Government give Parliament. Will that be an oral statement by the Home Secretary or a written statement, and will it be an amalgamation of what individual Ministers have said or just one statement on behalf of the whole Government?

Finally, it would be helpful to know whether the Government intend not to initiate any new legislation that might affect this area until the review is over and has been published. Is it the Government’s position that, because an emergency or some unpredictable occurrence might require the use of emergency powers, we might have to enter this territory—that is, we simply cannot stop it happening—and increase the number of police powers or other powers; or is it their intention to say, “Let us pause and draw a line in the sand,” as the hon. Member for North East Somerset said, and to consider what has been done in the past, along with what they plan to do in future, before passing any legislation?

Apart from those three points, I support what the Government are doing, and I think the review will be very helpful indeed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hanson]

We have had a debate about this and there is an honest disagreement between the Minister and me, but the hon. Gentleman needs to recognise that the DNA database, as constituted under the 2010 Act, would prevent those 6,000 serious crimes from taking place. He may shake his head, but that is what he needs to recognise.

Let me give an example involving an event that took place after our debate on 10 October. A newspaper report, headed “Warning as bogus cab driver is jailed for rape”, stated:

“Marcos De Souza, 32, was trapped because his DNA was held on file even though he had no criminal record. The Brazilian had lured the drunken 19-year-old into his car as she left a house party in Camden in February.

The victim was so drunk the sex predator believed she would never remember what was about to happen to her…But when she arrived home dishevelled, her boyfriend encouraged her to call police and De Souza’s DNA was found after tests. The sex predator was traced because police had taken his DNA when he was arrested after a previous girlfriend claimed he had assaulted her. The case was discontinued but his profile was retained on the national database.”

That DNA would not have been retained under the Government’s current proposals.

I accept that my amendment is not perfect. I may not have advanced the same argument in the past, and it is possible that I shall not do so in the future. The purpose of the amendment is to persuade the Minister to reflect again on the views of the hon. Member for Shipley and other Members.

[Keith Vaz]

I apologise for missing the earlier part of my right hon. Friend’s no doubt excellent speech. Given that his amendment is raising a number of issues, will he respond to the concern that some of us feel about the disproportionate number of black and Asian people whose names and details are on the database? There seems to be no explanation for it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kate Green]

I thank the Minister for that assurance, and I certainly hope the situation will be kept under review. District judges are paid members of the magistracy, and I am sure the Minister is not suggesting that there is less professionalism in the quality of judgments of the lay magistracy.

[Keith Vaz]

First, may I apologise for missing the opening speeches in this debate? I imagine, however, that they followed the usual form, with the Minister saying there are real problems with the retention of names on the database and the Opposition saying they ought to be retained because of the possibility that someone whose DNA is retained may well commit an offence in future, so it is better to hang on to it than to get rid of it.

My attention was drawn to this matter when a constituent of mine who had no previous convictions was at a pub and intervened to prevent a fight between two individuals. As a result of his intervention, his DNA was retained, and remains on the database. To be fair, the shadow Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), said it was important that Parliament as a whole should debate this issue. My position is that if someone has not committed an offence, their DNA should not be retained on the database. There is absolutely no reason to do so. We can either have a position, as set out by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards)—as I doubted whether I could pronounce his constituency, I almost called him the hon. Member for the whole of Wales—under which everyone is on the DNA database, so that is fair to everybody, or we can have a position whereby only the DNA of those who have committed an offence are on the database.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

Is my right hon. Friend concerned about the disproportionate number of black and ethnic minority people whose records are kept and the disproportionate number of young people who are pulled in for questioning because of incidents in the street whose DNA is kept, although often no charge is made, and they are then under some form of surveillance? Does he think that that is very damaging to their relations with the police?

[Keith Vaz]

Yes, I do. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. There is a concern about certain other groups, as well as those in ethnic minority communities, whose DNA is retained disproportionately. We have proportionately the largest DNA database of any country in the world. I am sorry to say that at the end of the previous Labour Government we lost our way on civil liberties issues. That has been acknowledged and there has been a mea culpa; those on the Front Bench, leaders and candidates in the Labour leadership election have all admitted that this had been a problem for us. However, we now have an opportunity to pause and to look at these issues carefully again.

[Philip Davies]

I wish to bring the right hon. Gentleman back to the case of his constituent who intervened in the fight and was put on the DNA database. How has that person’s life been negatively affected by having those details on the DNA database? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that if people do not go on to commit a crime, they will not be negatively affected by having their details on a DNA database?

--- Later in debate ---

[Keith Vaz]

I ask the hon. Gentleman, who always speaks up for the rights of the individual, this: why should a totally innocent person who seeks to intervene to stop a fight—one of the have-a-go heroes of this world, of whom he is the champion, not just in Shipley, but in other parts of the country—have their DNA retained because of their act of kindness in trying to stop further violence? It is absolutely wrong for that to happen; such people should be able to intervene and not fear that any DNA should be kept.

[Philip Davies]

I will have another go. Rather than asking me a question, although I am happy to debate it at a later date, I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman will answer my question: how was this person negatively affected by having their details on the DNA database?

[Keith Vaz]

I thought that I had answered the hon. Gentleman’s question. Why should a person in such a situation, through no fault of their own, have any part of their identity retained by a third party, given that they were not involved in any criminal offence? This is about freedom and liberty; it is a freedom not to have our information kept on a database.

If everybody was on the DNA database, the situation would be different. I am not advocating such an approach, because the state already has far too much information on us. We talked about all the offences created under successive Governments in respect of entry into people’s properties and the review that that Government have announced. Why should we suddenly want to give up all this information? Who is to retain it? How long is it to be retained for? Those are crucial questions and this Government are adopting the right approach. We have to pause, we have to examine what has happened over the past few years and we have to say, “Enough is enough.” I hope that, in looking at these issues, we will address the fundamental flaws in the database. If any suggestions are going to be made to improve the situation, I am sure that Parliament would want to enact them. However, the course that has been advocated—removing the DNA of innocent people over a specific period—is the right one to adopt at the moment.

Lords amendment 1 agreed to.

Lords amendments 2 to 15 and 19 to 29 agreed to.

Clause 64

Restrictions on scope of regulated activites: children

--- Later in debate ---

[James Brokenshire]

Unfortunately, the second point is outside my gift and within that of the business managers, but I certainly assure my hon. Friend about the publication of the report, and I hope that my comments on the rapporteur function are helpful.

Secondly, on the hon. Lady’s point about the assurance made by my noble Friend Lord Henley in the other place, the Government intend that we should ask the Children’s Commissioner for England to help to identify where improvements can be made to the practical care arrangements for trafficked children in the way that the hon. Lady highlighted.

I pay tribute to the work of the Children’s Commissioner. The hon. Lady highlighted the work on sexual exploitation, and I know about the very important review that the commissioner is undertaking. I had the privilege to discuss the issue with her at the start of her report, when I had ministerial responsibility for policy on the sexual exploitation of children, and I for one underline her comments on what I am sure will be an extremely important and valuable report. In the context of my noble Friend’s assurance in the other place, therefore, what I can say is that the issue is being considered extremely carefully, and discussions are under way on the scope and time scale of the review, but at this stage I am unable to give the hon. Lady the complete assurance that she looks for in the second of her two amendments. The matter is being looked at extremely carefully and closely in order to give effect to the statements that my noble Friend made in recognising the importance that we attach to receiving such input from the Children’s Commissioner.

[Keith Vaz]

Will the Minister respond to my hon. Friend’s excellent point about the appointment of guardians? It was an excellent point that reflects the recommendations of the Home Affairs Committee when we produced our major report two years ago on human trafficking. The appointment of a guardian would provide the best possible protection for such children in care.

[James Brokenshire]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point, and for the reason he cites we asked the Children’s Commissioner to review the practical care arrangements for trafficked children. We said that the right step at this stage was to seek that input, rather than to seek to legislate, recognising equally that several local authorities are already undertaking some very good practice.

I recognise that, in respect of the hon. Lady’s amendments, that might not be sufficient, but it was important that I respond and set out those points to the House this evening.

Question put, That amendment (a) to Lords amendment 30 be made.

UK Border Agency

Keith Vaz Excerpts

Monday 20th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question. He is absolutely right that the public want to know that we are dealing with these issues. That is why I have appointed the chief constable of Wiltshire police to be the interim head of the Border Force and why the Border Force will be separated from UKBA. We will put a much greater focus on the Border Force as a control body that is securing our borders and has a greater emphasis on law enforcement. At the same time, we have made a number of changes to the way in which UKBA operates—for example, we have taken policy away so that there is a greater concentration on operations.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

I welcome the fact that the Home Secretary is to implement all the recommendations by John Vine. This is about a root and branch reform of a very troubled organisation. She was right not to personalise the matter, because it is a cultural problem to do with the way in which UKBA operates. Only last week, as Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, I wrote to the chief executive to ask for certain information, which he refused to give. It is very important, not only for UKBA but for the new organisation that she is creating, that there should be proper parliamentary scrutiny of the agencies. I warn her that if she does not reform the organisation, it will come back and bite her and other Ministers in future. I therefore welcome her proposals.

[Mrs May]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the serious and constructive way in which he has engaged in his comments. As I said, he and the Home Affairs Committee have consistently, over a number of years, pointed out the problems at UKBA. Through the Vine report, we see in depth the problems that were occurring, particularly in the Border Force. He is absolutely right that this is about a change of culture within the organisation. That is why we have separated the Border Force from UKBA, and we have a new chief executive at UKBA who has already made a number of changes that are starting to change the culture. We will have a new interim head of the Border Force, which will be separate from UKBA, and that can be the start of the culture change, but it does take time to change a culture.

Abu Qatada

Keith Vaz Excerpts

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

Negotiations take place with a number of countries about the memorandums of understanding required to enable us to deport people so that we do not find ourselves unable to do so because of legal requirements. One important aspect of the Strasbourg Court’s decision in this case was that it supported the memorandum of understanding in respect of what would happen to Abu Qatada himself, were he to be returned to Jordan. In that sense, the memorandum of understanding was found to be workable by the Strasbourg court; access to a fair trial was the issue that it raised, but we will continue to be in negotiations with a number of countries where we feel it would be helpful to have such memorandums of understanding in place.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

The Home Secretary’s robust approach on this case mirrors that of previous Home Secretaries who have spoken today, but is there not a case for fast-tracking cases of national security through the European Court? The main complaint is that it took three years to pass from the House of Lords to the European Court. In cases like this, urgent action needs to be taken. Will the right hon. Lady confirm whether Sheikh Raed Saleh is still in the country?

[Mrs May]

The issue with the European Court is not so much one of whether certain cases should be fast-tracked; rather, the question we need to ask is which cases should be going through to the European Court. One issue we need to look at is the fact that when cases have gone through every single level of judicial consideration through national courts, appeal to the European Court is too often seen as a natural thing to happen at the end of the process. That contrasts with the original intention, which was about defining some very key points of law relating to human rights. That is the issue on which we need to focus.

Oral Answers to Questions

Keith Vaz Excerpts

Monday 6th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[James Brokenshire]

My hon. Friend highlights the very relevant issue of the connection between alcohol and domestic violence and abuse in the home. Studies have drawn attention to that, which is why we are seeking to take the action that we have been taking, through controls on licensing and addressing the issue of pricing. We will be providing further details on the Government’s alcohol strategy shortly.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

As the Minister knows, alcohol-related crime costs £7.3 billion a year. Four years ago, the Select Committee on Home Affairs recommended that a minimum price for alcohol be introduced. The Scottish Government have accepted that, but neither the previous Government nor this one have done so. Is it not time that we told the big supermarkets that the level of cheap alcohol in supermarkets is actually fuelling this crime?

[James Brokenshire]

I certainly recognise the problems linked to alcohol-fuelled crime; there were about 900,000 violent crimes linked to alcohol in 2010-11. I also know that this issue has been flagged up before by the right hon. Gentleman in debate and by the work of his Committee. The Government are committed to tackling the harms of alcohol, and we recognise that the availability of cheap alcohol is a significant issue that needs addressing. He will recognise that some complex issues are involved in terms of regulation and other aspects. We are continuing to examine this matter carefully and closely, recognising that price is a relevant and important factor in dealing with this problem.

Foreign National Offenders

Keith Vaz Excerpts

Monday 19th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Damian Green]

The problem has indeed been around for some years. As I said in my introductory remarks, we have taken a number of measures to make the system more effective, the most important of which was to ensure that every foreign national offender who is in prison starts having their deportation considered 18 months before the end of their sentence. That is the most effective way to ensure that we do not have hundreds of people or, as in some cases, more than a thousand people falling through the cracks.

My hon. Friend is right about human rights legislation. I apologise if we have been too slow for his taste in bringing reforms forward. As he will know, we produced a consultation document some months ago suggesting changes to human rights legislation. Given the tenor of the exchanges so far, I expect our changes to receive support from both sides of the House.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

The Minister will know that the Home Affairs Committee’s last report on the UKBA emphasised that the crucial relationship in respect of foreign national prisoners was that between the Prison Service and the UKBA. Fifty per cent. of such people have been waiting for up to two years for removal. The Minister has used the 18 month figure several times. Could we not start looking at deportation the moment the prisoner enters the prison system?

[Damian Green]

Obviously, the practical point is that it depends on the length of the sentence. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, if somebody is sentenced to more than a year they are up for deportation at the end of their sentence, so what he suggests effectively happens. I am grateful to him for both the Committee’s thoughtful reports and the tone of his question, which gets to the heart of the matter. There has to be better co-ordination between the Prison Service and the UKBA. We have taken significant steps towards achieving that, and I am sure that more steps need to be taken in future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Keith Vaz Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising an issue that was raised when the NCA was announced. I am pleased to say that CEOP is indeed one of the commands in the National Crime Agency. Peter Davies, the chief executive office of CEOP, has made it clear that

“we know that we will go into that future”—

that is, as part of the NCA—

“with our brand, purpose and operating model intact.”

Indeed, Peter Davies sits on the programme board and will work closely with Keith Bristow on the agency’s operating model. As part of the NCA, CEOP will not only be able to continue doing what it does today, but will be able to enhance its work, improving the vital work of protecting children.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

The Home Secretary will recall that on 21 October she wrote to me saying that she would write to the Select Committee on Home Affairs shortly with the full details of which functions would be transferred from the National Policing Improvement Agency to the National Crime Agency. It is now six weeks since that letter, and in 12 weeks’ time the NPIA will be abolished. When will she be in a position to write to me with a full list of the functions that will be transferred, or will she accept the Committee’s recommendation that she should delay the NPIA’s closure until all the functions are properly transferred?

[Mrs May]

The right hon. Gentleman may have misspoken in his question. He referred to the NPIA closing in 12 weeks. It will not be closing in 12 weeks: we have already made it clear that the NPIA will be closed by the end of December 2012, to allow time for the full and proper transfer of its functions, where necessary, to other organisations. We will inform Parliament of the transfer of those functions shortly.

Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill

Keith Vaz Excerpts

Tuesday 29th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Richard Fuller]

Without getting into the details, Mr Deputy Speaker, I can say that of course many of us would like to go further. The Minister and I have had disagreements on this, but in conclusion may I commend him on the way in which he has seen the passage of this Bill through? I hope that in future we may be able to go further.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

I shall be brief, Mr Deputy Speaker, because I know that the House is anxious to vote on this matter. I wish to draw the Minister’s attention to the evidence on the Olympics given this morning by Her Majesty’s inspector of constabulary to the Select Committee on Home Affairs. He called for a central hub to be created to police the Olympics, bringing together resources, intelligence and other aspects of policing. He and others felt that that was necessary.

On the questions raised by others concerning TPIMs and control orders, of course there is concern that some of these individuals will be allowed to return to London just as the Olympics are beginning, and the Government need to monitor the situation carefully.

My final point relates to the request for thousands of additional volunteers to come forward to police the Olympics—there is talk of 10,000 people. All I urge is that they are properly trained before they take on their responsibilities. I am sure that the Minister is conscious of the importance of the Olympics. The hon. Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer) was right to have raised it, and I hope that the Government will bear it in mind when we consider the resources and practicalities of the next few months.

[James Brokenshire]

This has been a useful debate in the latter stages of the Bill’s consideration in both Houses. I am conscious of time and recognise that the Opposition might wish to press their amendment to a vote, so I need to be swift in my summation, for which I apologise.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) highlighted issues regarding the police reporting requirement. We have looked into this very carefully, including the need for appropriateness. In other words, a constable, in giving directions, must be reasonable, necessary and proportionate in his or her approach in this regard. I hope that gives him some assurance regarding the manner in which the directions power will be undertaken. I appreciate his long-standing interest in these matters and his desire to ensure they are dealt with in a reasoned and appropriate way.

Let me address the comments of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) about the availability of information to the independent reviewer. I shall certainly look at the Hansard report of her comments because we want to ensure that the independent reviewer has all the information appropriate to be able to do his work and to report, as has happened with the independent reviewer in relation to control orders. I shall consider her requests regarding those issues to ensure that we are equipping the independent reviewer with all the appropriate information to enable him to conduct his duties in an effective manner and report to the House, as I am sure right hon. and hon. Members would expect.

On preparedness, I know why the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), who was a Minister at the time of the appalling 7/7 incident, takes these issues so very seriously and is so focused. However, she will equally understand that I am limited as to what it is appropriate for me to say in the House about operational and practical issues in relation to specific arrangements for individuals. I understand her questioning but I hope she will appreciate that, in terms of capability and other issues linked to the work of the police and the Security Service, it is not, unfortunately, appropriate for me to respond to her fully in this place.

The right hon. Lady highlighted an issue in relation to the compatibility of individual aspects of the schedule. Clearly, the exclusion measure would not be used to exclude the individual from, for example, the street in which he or she lives. The notice must be enforceable and the measures will need to be applied sensibly. They will be put in place only where restrictions are necessary, so one measure cannot cut across another—there needs to be consistency, one measure with the other. However, I shall reflect on whether further clarification is required.

In essence, we return to the issue of preparedness. I have said that it will take time to realise fully some of the benefits from additional resources, but the key issue for me is that at the point of transition to the new TPIM arrangements, effective arrangements will be in place. That has been our focus in our discussions with the police and the Security Service, whom I thank for their work not only in relation to preparations for the Bill but for keeping us safe each and every day.

Lords amendment 1 agreed to.

Lords amendments 2 to 10 agreed to.

Schedule 8

Transitional and saving provision

Amendment (a) proposed to Lords amendment 11.—(Diana Johnson.)

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Extradition

Keith Vaz Excerpts

Thursday 24th November 2011 Westminster Hall

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)]

I will be brief, first because, regrettably, I have a prior engagement. I apologise to the Minister and the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman for being unable to be present when they respond to the debate. However, I will read Hansard carefully, because the Minister has a dilemma. An independent review has taken place, and probably all right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken wish that the outcome of that review was slightly different. I hope that Hansard will reveal how the Minister intends to take the matter forward.

My second reason for being brief is that many right hon. and hon. Members have made pertinent and cogent points, and have explained why the situation is not palatable or acceptable. In particular, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) set out the concerns with the clarity and precision for which he is renowned. I hazard to say that he used an analytical and forensic approach, something that he thought the Chamber would have no appetite for, but I think it did. There is clearly an appetite in the Chamber today for the matter to be pursued in the House in the near future, with a debatable motion that can be voted on. I would welcome that.

The Liberal Democrats have a history of supporting campaigns to prosecute UK citizens in UK courts, and most notably in cases such as the NatWest three in 2006 and that of Gary McKinnon. My right hon. and learned Friend played a central role in pushing that. In 2009, while in opposition, our leader, the Deputy Prime Minister, said that Gary McKinnon’s extradition would amount to a travesty of justice. He also said that the US-UK extradition treaty is lop-sided. I support that position and agree with that description. The treaty is lop-sided, and the same could be said about the European Union and the European arrest warrant. However, we must adopt a balanced approach to those arrest warrants, and right hon. and hon. Members have referred to cases in which constituents have been extradited, describing the impact on them. Equally, some hon. Members know of British citizens such as a constituent of mine whose son was seriously assaulted in Greece and nearly died as a result. Those who were believed to be responsible were British citizens who were subsequently extradited to Greece using a European arrest warrant. We must adopt a balanced approach.

It is clear from the debate that right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber believe that agreements, particularly with the US and the European Union, have stripped the UK of many discretionary powers, and have arguably sacrificed the rights of British citizens for the sake of better relations with the EU and the US.

One contribution that I should highlight is that of the hon. Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax), who is no longer in his place. He made an unfortunate reference to “so-called” human rights. As citizens, we have intrinsic human rights, and referring to “so-called” human rights denigrates our fundamental rights, which we should be proud of.

Sir Scott Baker’s report explains that, in his view, there is much confusion and misunderstanding about how extradition works, and he rebuts the calls for a change in the law, particularly in cases such as that of Gary McKinnon. I do not agree with his findings, but the review is independent, so dissent is legitimate, if not encouraged. That is why I shall read carefully what the Minister says about that independent review.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

I understand that the Deputy Prime Minister, in his capacity as leader of the Liberal Democrats, has set up a party review under the chairmanship of the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell). Can the hon. Gentleman tell the House when that review is likely to report?

[Tom Brake]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. My right hon. and learned Friend may want to intervene to provide clarity on when the panel will report.

--- Later in debate ---

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Leigh, to follow the right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) on this important subject. I join others in congratulating the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) on securing this debate. I agree that it would have been better to have this debate on the Floor of the House. These important matters have been of concern to many Members, hence the large number of right hon. and hon. Members who have attended the debate.

I want to re-emphasise the decisions taken so far by the Home Affairs Committee. Before I do so, I want to commend the excellent report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. It was fair and balanced. It provided Members with an insight into the struggles faced not only by individuals, but by members of families who support those individuals not only in the normal legal process, but against Governments of other countries. It certainly will help my Committee in the work that we do.

I have an apology to make. We started our inquiry into extradition a year ago, but unfortunately events in the Home Affairs Committee tend to gather pace and different issues occupy us. We were therefore not able to conclude our report, partly because of the Committee’s heavy workload, but also because we were waiting for the outcome of Sir Scott Baker’s review. I am pleased to tell the House that Sir Scott Baker will be appearing before the Committee on 20 December. We have been trying to get him before us for a while, but we thought it best that he should report first before we questioned him on his conclusions. This debate will provide us with a great deal of information about individual cases, which I hope will assist the Committee and Parliament once we publish our report in February.

I am delighted that the Liberal Democrats will be having their own review. Judging by what the chairman of the panel has told the House today, I have a fair idea what the conclusions will be even before the review has begun. It would be very odd if we had conclusions from a review chaired by the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) that were different from what he has said today and different from the principled stand that he took on the Gary McKinnon case. It would certainly be a shock to us all if they were different from the words of the right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington, and the words of the Deputy Prime Minister when in opposition, when he was clear that in his view Gary McKinnon should not be allowed to go to America to face trial.

[Sir Menzies Campbell]

I am loth to cause a shock to the right hon. Gentleman. He can assume that my views have been formed for a long time and are unlikely to be changed. However, there is an important element, to which I made reference earlier, about how one would effect the changes in the treaty arrangements between this country and the United States to ensure that a system that we find acceptable was put in place.

[Keith Vaz]

The right hon. and learned Gentleman is absolutely right. That is the fundamental basis for what should happen next. There is consensus across the House about what is wrong with the treaty. I have spoken to previous Home Secretaries under the previous Government, one of whom expressed regret about the way in which the original treaty was negotiated. The next step, therefore, must be to look again at the treaty and see what changes can be made.

We have heard some extraordinary stories—I should say case histories, not stories—from the hon. Members for South Dorset (Richard Drax) and for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith). We have heard about the excellent work by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan). The Home Affairs Committee listened carefully to the evidence given by the father of Babar Ahmad when he appeared. He spoke with great dignity. If someone’s son has been in custody for as long as Babar Ahmad, I would expect anger and outrage, but the way in which he gave evidence to the Committee was absolutely commendable.

The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), who is not in his place at the moment, has done an outstanding job in protecting his constituent and in advancing the cause of Gary McKinnon. I do not think that we would have been discussing these issues had it not been for the case studies that we have had in Tooting and Southgate.

The Home Affairs Committee has unanimously written to the Minister. We wrote to the previous Minister with responsibility for immigration and the previous Home Secretary under the previous Government to urge them to write to the United States to express a view and conclude this matter. That is my plea to the Minister. We are told that politics is not included in such matters because of their legal nature, but we know that the Prime Minister spoke to President Obama about these matters when the President came to the United Kingdom, so there is politics in this. I cannot see why it has taken 18 months for the Home Secretary to make a decision about this case. I have written to her regularly on behalf of the Committee. Each time she has replied to tell me that the medical evidence cannot be agreed, but the medical evidence, as we have heard from the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate, has not changed over the past 18 months. I hope that we can reach a conclusion on this. Once we conclude on Gary McKinnon, and then when we hear the views of the Deputy Prime Minister, we will know the coalition Government’s position on the Act and the treaty. That is why the McKinnon case is so important.

I hope that we will have closure on this matter. I hope that right hon. and hon. Members who have other cases will be able to get satisfaction. I do not know whether our report will be as brilliant as the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, but I hope that, when we report in February, after we have taken evidence from Sir Scott Baker, we will be able to assist the House in deciding what the next steps will be.