BBC (Proposed Cuts)

Julian Smith Excerpts

Thursday 1st December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Paul Blomfield]

My hon. Friend makes an important point, because I think the cuts conflict with that duty. The BBC has done a lot of great work over recent years in seeking to meet that aspiration and won a popular following from our minority communities in Sheffield. That is now at risk as a result of these cuts.

My concern is not only about the immediate impact, but that the transformation of the local radio offer—a significant change—will lead to a spiral of decline. Reduced budgets will lead to falling listener numbers, which would challenge local radio’s legitimacy further and leave the London-based management in no doubt in future. Smaller audiences for local radio would lead to further cuts, reducing listeners again. That spiral of decline will ultimately bring into question the future of local radio. That must be a worry for us all, because BBC local radio is unique. No one else, in either the BBC or the commercial sector, has a similar offer. As other Members have said, research suggests that many people—particularly older people—tune in to local radio for a sense of connection with their communities. A MORI study for Ofcom indicates that older people are more likely to listen to the radio at least five days a week, with 87% of those over 55 doing so. That is certainly true of Radio Sheffield, whose audience’s average age is 54. Those people listen to it because it is local: it is of the community and reflects that community identity.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman think that one of the challenges is that, looking at these issues from London, the Yorkshire dales, which I represent, and Sheffield, which he represents, may seem close, when in fact the communities there are quite different and distinct? We need to point that out to people living in White City.

[Paul Blomfield]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman’s point about regional identity; in fact, I was coming to that. My point about the spiral of decline is that, if evening programmes became national—“Radio England”—they would, by any definition, cease to be local, and the reason for listening to them would disappear. If afternoon programming becomes regional, the same will happen. In Sheffield, we are rightly proud of being part of Yorkshire, which is an important part of our identity. However, although Yorkshire is our region, it is not our community. Yet that point—precisely the point that the hon. Gentleman makes—is not understood by the BBC management in London.

Let me illustrate that by reference to the plans for shared sports coverage. Sport is very popular with the Radio Sheffield audience, and I have no doubt that the same is true around the country. Nobody else provides that service, and on a Saturday afternoon the station is the most popular station on the dial in south Yorkshire. One in four radio listeners are tuned in to Radio Sheffield. However, under the BBC plans, when Sheffield United play at Elland Road—as we will next year when we are promoted: I have to declare another interest at this point—the commentary will be provided by Radio Leeds. I recently pointed out to the director-general of the BBC—at the meeting to which the right hon. Member for Bath referred—that Sheffield United fans would rather switch off than listen to a Leeds-based commentary. He recognised that that was a problem and said that the BBC needed to provide more neutral football commentary—completely missing the point. As a Sheffield United fan, I listen to Radio Sheffield’s away commentary precisely because it is not neutral—because it is partisan and because Keith Edwards knows the club inside out and cares about it, just as I do.

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[Julian Smith]

The hon. Gentleman refers to the limited fat in local BBC stations. Len Tingle, who followed me around for a day last year, persuaded his wife to accompany him on a day out in the Dales and an evening at a B and B. She ended up carrying all his bags and acting as cameraman in the evening. I think that that shows how hard local journalists are working day in, day out.

[Mr Wright]

I entirely agree.

Another aspect of the local identity and distinctiveness to which I have referred is the fierce passion for and loyalty to an area. My hon. Friend the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield), in a far more eloquent speech than I could ever make, presented the case for ensuring that local radio stations are partisan in that sense. It is significant that BBC Tees’s strapline is “proud of where we live”. The station’s championing of new renewable and offshore wind technology in the area is second to none, and its advocacy of the area during the loss of the steel plant in Redcar and its unconfined joy when the plant was sold as a going concern to SSI showed that it would always fight Teesside’s case. While he is still in the Chamber, let me pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) for ensuring that the plant and its workers remained on Teesside.

Much of that passion for and pride in the station derives from its staff. The presenters, journalists and production staff at BBC Tees are all professionals, and fiercely loyal to the region. Most of the presenters were born and raised in the area, which has given them a knowledge of and affinity with the area that is unsurpassed in any other broadcasting medium. Both Ali Brownlee and John Foster, the former breakfast show host who now presents the afternoon show, were born in Middlesbrough. Neil Green, who currently presents the drive-time show, was born in Hartlepool, was a teacher in the area, and still lives in my constituency. It is important to bear in mind that those people use the same services as their listeners.

Such loyalty and passion, however, are not the same as slavish devotion. The quality of the journalism on the station is extremely high and challenging. I can certainly say, as an elected representative, that we are not given an easy ride when being questioned by presenters. I certainly was not given an easy ride this week when I was questioned about the autumn statement, along with the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales). The station’s passion for ensuring that local politics is viewed in the context of what we do here in Westminster is very valuable.

In the run-up to last year’s general election, all the candidates for the seat that I now represent went to the BBC Tees studio, where we were questioned and challenged by Neil Green, who also fielded calls from listeners and prospective voters for well over an hour. It is difficult to think of another widely used, indeed universal, medium that would allow such direct democratic challenge, such professionalism, and such reach to and interaction with our constituents. Because many people in my area do not have access to the internet, e-mail or social media, BBC local radio is the sole means by which citizens can question people in positions of authority or people who are standing for election.

[Mr Wright]

I entirely agree. As I said earlier, BBC local radio can serve as a champion for particular issues.

In the time left to me, I want to outline my concerns about the cuts to local investigative journalism. The “Inside Out” programme provides in-depth and important local journalism. It is comparable in quality and scope to Granada’s “World in Action” in the 1970s and 1980s, and no other current broadcaster or programme, with the possible exception of Channel 4’s “Dispatches”, is able to match it. In my region, its exposé on Southern Cross care homes and investigation into the supply chain used by the businesses of Mike Ashley, the owner of Newcastle United, were important and showed investigative journalism at its best. The 40% cut to that programme will allow those with powerful vested interests to sleep more soundly in their beds, which should be avoided.

There is, of course, cross-fertilisation between the two elements of the BBC. Local radio investigations and points put forward by listeners can feed into television journalism, and vice versa. The quality of local provision will fall as a result of these cuts, and licence fee payers in my area will receive a poorer service.

[Julian Smith]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the recent policing scandals in Cleveland and my area of Yorkshire would not have been analysed properly had it not been for BBC local radio and television news?

[Mr Wright]

I entirely agree. The BBC revealed the costs of those police investigations and challenged those in authority on such financial issues.

The world is getting much smaller in the sense that it is becoming ever more interconnected. People have access to news events across the world, such as the Arab spring, in a matter of seconds through BBC World Service and News 24, as well as through broadcasters such as Sky and CNN. Paradoxically, and somewhat perversely, the BBC cuts proposals will result in less local provision, but that is equally important. That should be avoided. One of the BBC’s great strengths is its local output, and that should be protected as much as possible.

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[Alun Cairns]

I would certainly underline that point, but we should bear the context in mind. I did not see the broadcast and although I have read some reports about it, I would like to watch it before I comment specifically. I have no doubt that the Secretary of State will refer to it when he sums up.

I was talking about salary levels and progress has been made, but Graham Norton still earns £4 million over two years. I am sure that if that amount was squeezed further, he probably would not walk. Reference has already been made to the fact that David Dimbleby earns £15,000 per episode. Anne Robinson’s salary was cut from £4 million over two years to £2 million over two years. Demand for such roles clearly outstrips supply and the BBC has a fantastic ability in developing talent. It generates the supply as well as satisfying the demand. There is no excuse for paying such salaries to those people.

[Julian Smith]

Does my hon. Friend agree that work needs to be done to ensure that management salaries at the BBC in London and the south are much more equitable with management salaries and executive salaries in the north?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful for that point. The ultimate test is transparency and that is an area where the BBC has taken some small steps. For comparison, the agenda of the Government as regards local authorities, where every invoice in excess of £500 is published, leads me to expect the BBC to go that way, too. That greater transparency would allow people to judge and would better inform the BBC about its judgments and, no doubt, misjudgments, on occasion.

In the minute I have left, let me refer to Professor Anthony King’s report about how the BBC must better reflect the nations and regions of the United Kingdom on the network. It has taken some positive steps. For example, “Doctor Who” has been highlighted in this debate and it is now filmed and produced in Cardiff. There is a significant shift to Salford, too, but that does not get away from the fact that television from the nations and regions of the UK about the nations and regions of the UK should be broadcast on the network. Let me highlight, for example, “Boys from the Blackstuff”, a pioneering programme about Merseyside that educated significant numbers of people about some of the culture there. “Auf Wiedersehen, Pet” was a programme that made the north-east attractive to many people, and it brought it out through the characters. We need to see more of that sort of innovation and I am grateful to have had the opportunity to highlight it.

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee on giving us this debate today and the Members who called for it, particularly the hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) and my hon. Friends the Members for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) and for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). I called for such a debate in my Westminster Hall debate on this issue, because I feel very strongly that we must ensure that the BBC and the Government understand the depth and strength of feeling on the issue. More than 50 MPs tried to speak in the Westminster Hall debate—obviously, not all of them could get into a 90-minute slot, so this is a welcome opportunity to extend the number of voices heard in Parliament on this topic. Those voices need to be heard.

The BBC Trust is planning to achieve savings of about £670 million a year by 2016-17, with a net loss of about 2,000 jobs across the piece. The £670 million-worth of savings identified will be lumped together with £30 million of savings generated by exceeding the targets for the BBC’s current efficiency programme, which will result in total savings by 2017 of 20%. By anybody’s standards, that is a fairly significant cut in funding for our public broadcaster. The question is: why is that being done? Why are we seeing that level of cuts?

We know that the cost of the licence fee has been frozen until 2017, yet it has gone up by just £10 since 2007 and now costs just over £12 a month for all the TV, radio, websites and live events covered by the BBC. That compares with about £60 a month for some subscription services and, as the National Union of Journalists has pointed out, if all the current licence fee-paying households contributed just 7p extra a day, the cuts could be stopped. It is important to underline the facts that lie behind the measures that we are discussing. It is critical to point that out.

Of course, everybody has been talking today about what is good about the BBC. Many people have drawn attention to “Doctor Who” and I think it is worth drawing attention to some of the very expensive programmes made by the BBC, which are among the most loved of its output. “Frozen Planet”, for instance, is an amazing series. Everybody is now aware of the images of the criminal penguins that are doing the rounds on the BBC. “Springwatch” and “Autumnwatch” are very expensive programmes to make, but their educational value, never mind their entertainment value and their value in raising awareness of the environment, means that I would hate to see them disappear from the BBC’s output. They must be expensive to make—they are live and they involve a lot of filming over a long time.

As I said, everybody has mentioned “Doctor Who”, but I would also mention “Torchwood”, which, in my view, is one of the best programmes on the BBC. The maker of “Doctor Who” and “Torchwood” is Russell T Davies, who is one of the best programme makers of my generation. The right hon. Member for Bath (Mr Foster) mentioned this earlier—I wonder whether Russell T Davies would be the programme maker he is today without the investment in developing good programme makers that we have had from the BBC in the past. I would not like to see people like Russell T Davies walk away from the BBC. They are amazing and creative people and that quality makes the BBC better than any other public service broadcaster in the world.

[Julian Smith]

Out of interest, where does the hon. Lady stand on “Mad Men”? What is her view of American imports and, in particular, of that great show?

[Angela Smith]

I must confess that I do not watch “Mad Men”. I want to focus on the output of the BBC today.

In the end, the cuts to local radio proposed by the BBC are the most worrying. As the NUJ has pointed out, under the plans 22% of local radio output will go at a time when listening figures are going up. Current affairs and investigative programming will be badly affected across the board, but 40% of the reductions are outside London, which will have a disproportionate impact on local radio broadcasting. On top of that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) pointed out, output will go regional at local level, which is a contradiction, at 1 pm. Drive-time broadcasting will be local but then output will go national after 6 pm. On Sundays, local broadcasting will finish at 1 pm. The total reduction in local broadcasting is about 50%. We have had a pilot on afternoon regional programmes in south Yorkshire and it did not work. Many of the people in south Yorkshire who would tune in to Paulette Edwards tuned out as soon as they realised it had gone regional. As I said in the Westminster Hall debate, we are not parochial but we listen to local radio for a reason—because we want to hear about local news, local politics and local concerns. If we wanted to go regional or national, we would tune in to another station.

Local radio serves a very important purpose and delivers to a specific socio-demographic audience, as was pointed out earlier. The point has been made about the age profile of Radio Sheffield, but it should also be placed on the record that two thirds of the station’s audience are classed as C2DE—in other words it has a working-class audience. Many of those people listen to no other station than BBC Radio Sheffield. It is true that Radio 2 and Radio Hallam get a bigger audience in south Yorkshire, but the reach and audience of Radio Sheffield is significantly higher than the 12% Radio 4 weekly audience of 157,000 and the audience of Radio 5 Live, which reaches 126,000 listeners across the week—just 9.9%.

It is crucial that the BBC Trust gets this decision right. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central pointed out how passionately people believe in their local radio station, and I want to underline that point. What we enjoy about Radio Sheffield is the diversity of its output and the way it connects with its audience. This is a critical point. My hon. Friend made some funny comments about the sports coverage on Radio Sheffield and I point out that fans of Barnsley FC, Doncaster FC and Rotherham FC also rely on Radio Sheffield for distinctive and very partisan coverage. We must maintain that. I will counterbalance the point he made about Sheffield United by pointing out that Sheffield Wednesday fans, of whom I am one, are also keen Radio Sheffield listeners. On his point about Sheffield United playing Leeds United next year when they are promoted, I must say that they will have to get past Sheffield Wednesday first—they are fifth in the table and we are second—so we will see how that goes.

I want to emphasise the loyalty that there is for BBC local radio. Last Saturday, I was out canvassing in Penistone picking up lots more Labour votes—the swing to us there is quite significant—and I found what one lady said particularly interesting. She said, “I know who you are: I hear you on Radio Sheffield.” One thing that Radio Sheffield does is debate local politics in a very fair and balanced way, giving it significant coverage. She went on to say, “I absolutely love Radio Sheffield and Toby Foster—there’s nobody else I would listen to in the morning.” A lot of people would say the same about Rony Robinson, Paulette Edwards, Howard Pressman and all the other broadcasters on Radio Sheffield. That is the point—the proposals put forward by the trust will have a disproportionate impact on local radio. It must listen, take note and change its plans. I also think that the Government should think again about freezing the licence fee.

The hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) said that the BBC has an unfair advantage over some of its competitors. However, Radio Centre, which is the industry body for commercial radio, has said:

“While we understand that the BBC needs to make savings to meet the terms of its licence fee settlement, we do not”—

the word “not” is underlined—

“accept that this should inevitably lead to its most distinctive output being diluted.”

Even commercial radio understands the role that local radio has to play in delivering cultural, political and social services to the people of this country. I urge the House to support the motion.