Devolution (Immigration) (Scotland) Bill

Judith Cummins Excerpts

Friday 25th April 2025 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Gethins]

Oh, here we go! If you can tell me why on earth Labour is putting Michael Gove in the House of Lords, I will gladly give way.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

Order. Can I remind the hon. Gentleman to do less you-ing, please?

[Johanna Baxter]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for indulging me a second time. He references Brexit. Can he clarify for the House why his party spent less on campaigning against Brexit than on a local by-election campaign in Scotland? The newfound conversion to opposing Brexit might be welcome, but that clarification would be helpful.

[Gareth Snell (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Could you give guidance on whether re-running the Brexit debate from 10 years ago is in any way linked to a single clause of this Bill from the Scottish National party?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

That is not a point of order. The Bill has a broad scope, so it does allow for some broadness in the debate.

[Stephen Gethins]

I am not that surprised that the Labour party wants to close down a debate on Brexit. The hon. Member is seeking to spare his party its blushes—in particular Scottish Labour—and I respect him for that. We know why we need to open up that debate. The Treasury will tell us why: it is because of how much money Brexit is costing our public services. Our young people know why: it is because of the opportunities Brexit is costing them.

I listened to the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Andrew Lewin) yesterday in Westminster Hall. He made a good speech in which he tried to talk about opportunities for young people through a youth mobility scheme that he endorsed, but he also spoke of capping the number of young people who could participate, so that fewer young people had the freedom of movement that both he and I enjoyed. What a paucity of ambition from the Labour party for our young people, who have been left with fewer rights. I expected that from the Conservative party, but not in my wildest dreams would I have expected it from the Labour party, which now wants to crow about the situation and the cap on young people.

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[Stephen Gethins]

The hon. Member is a born-again Brexiteer, and he has taken on the nonsense of Brexiteers. He should have a look at the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019, passed by this House, which banned a no-deal Brexit, which he said he was pushing on. Who was one of the co-authors of that Bill? I was. I worked with Labour colleagues, Liberal Democrat colleagues, Green colleagues and SDLP colleagues to stop the damaging “no deal” that Brexiteers embraced; he has embraced it, and Boris Johnson embraced it.

Let me move on to Scottish Labour; we have heard quite enough nonsense from the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Gareth Snell) today. I was one of the authors of the Bill that we called the Benn-Burt Act because of the fine work done by those Members—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

Order. May I remind the hon. Gentleman that the Bill is an immigration Bill? While I did say that the scope is quite wide, will he please try to stick to immigration?

[Stephen Gethins]

You are quite right, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I was keen to knock on the head some of the issues raised by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central. Let me talk about Scottish Labour’s commitments. I will quote the leader of the Scottish Labour Party, Anas Sarwar. I do not always do this, and I know that the Secretary of State does not like talking about him—he frequently disregards him—but let me at least give Anas Sarwar his place. He said:

“I’ve had a number of conversations with Yvette Cooper and UK colleagues in the run-up to the election and since the election. They already want to reform the Migration Advisory Committee to make sure there is proper Scottish representation. They recognise there are different migration needs in different parts of the country”.

As for reaching out a bit more to other colleagues, not everything in the Bill is for everybody in this House, but the Bill gives us an opportunity to meet commitments made. We could do that on Third Reading. We could introduce amendments and have a Bill team. I would love to have really good, strong Scottish Labour representation on that. [Interruption.] I would also like to have Conservative representation on it; let the team be reflective of who is in the House. I would be generous to the party of the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine (Andrew Bowie)—almost as generous as the Labour party regularly is to his party.

Let me quote Scottish Labour’s deputy leader. Jackie Baillie said:

“I would expect governments to work together, to talk to each other, to respond to each other’s needs…At the moment there are no plans for one”—

this was said pre-election—

“but I think if you have governments taking common-sense approaches that an incoming Labour government would do, then dialogue will continue.”

The Secretary of State will have the opportunity to talk about this today, and I very much look forward to an update on where he is on the talks. The Bill gives precious time to him, and to the offices of other Secretary of States, and gives the rest of us time to meet the needs of the Scottish sector.

I am glad to see the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Torcuil Crichton) in his place; I welcome him. As he has rightly said, when it comes to immigration policy, one size does not fit all. It should not be beyond us to devise ways to attract more people to work and settle here. He has talked effectively about the challenges for the rural and island communities that he represents, and I was glad to hear his productive intervention on that. I hope that he is able to have conversations with his hon. Friends about that.

Let me quote from the Scottish Labour manifesto:

“we will work with the Scottish Government when designing workforce plans for different sectors. This will ensure our migration and skills policies work for every part of the UK.”

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[Josh Fenton-Glynn (Calder Valley) (Lab)]

Care is an issue that matters deeply to me, but the problem with care is not that we are not getting cheap labour from elsewhere; it is that we are not paying care workers enough. That is one of the things that a national care service would seek to solve. Why did the SNP waste so much money—£28 million—on its failed national care service, rather than working across the House in good faith to deliver the care that people need?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

Order. I remind all Members that the Bill is about why Scotland should have devolved powers over immigration.

[Stephen Gethins]

I am glad if we can get back to the Bill. I am struck that Labour Members never seem to be that keen to talk about the areas for which they have responsibility. They talk about the Scottish Government an awful lot but not the areas for which they have responsibility. This Bill speaks to a specific Scottish solution that could be brought in to meet particular Scottish needs, and it is one that, to be fair, Scottish Labour has talked about.

Let me move on to talk about think-tanks and other organisations. The Law Society of Scotland—

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[Pete Wishart]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. I know that most Labour Members are new to the procedures and workings of this House, but the Secretary of State is not, so he will know from experience that private Members’ Bills are practically rewritten in Committee. My hon. Friend is asking that we be allowed to take the Bill through to Committee, where this can be worked out. Surely even the Secretary of State, who I believe has been in this House since 2010, understands how these things work.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman, before I call the hon. Member for Arbroath and Broughty Ferry (Stephen Gethins) to continue, that interventions should be on the Member who is speaking.

[Stephen Gethins]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Now that we have clarified that point of reference, I look forward to the vote today that the Secretary of State is committed to, and I look forward to meeting him so that we can work together, because that is the right thing to do, and we will have to make concessions. Of course we want to see the devolution of immigration—we want to see independence. We differ from other Members in this Chamber; we accept that we have differences and that we were voted in on different manifestos. But it is not beyond the wit of man—to be fair, this is something that the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar has already referenced—to try and find a bit of common ground.

Now let me talk about some of the think-tanks and other organisations and what they have said, because I am keen to let other Members have the opportunity to speak.

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[Seamus Logan (Aberdeenshire North and Moray East) (SNP)]

How the hon. Member has managed to bring ferries into a debate about a Scottish visa is beyond me. Instead of focusing on the issues that he sees with capital projects in Scotland, why does he not talk about some of the capital project failures in England?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

Order. May I remind hon. Members that this is a debate about why Scotland should have devolved powers over immigration?

[Mr Quigley]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. You are quite right to keep us on track.

The Bill fails to account for its impact on the broader UK internal market. If Scotland is granted the power to admit migrants under its own criteria, we will be left with a host of unanswered questions. What is the mechanism for managing the flow of people across borders? How will we prevent an influx of people from moving to other parts of the UK without proper oversight?

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[Chris Law]

The hon. Member is asking us some valuable questions on things that need to be probed a little bit deeper, such as cost and complexity. Those are all matters we are having to consider under Brexit, which is costing £40 billion a year. [Interruption.] I can hear the chuntering, but I am addressing the Member on whom I am intervening. [Hon. Members: “Ooh!”] Are you surprised? That is how a proper adult debate happens. I ask the hon. Member this important question: given that he is asking some legitimate questions that he and we would like to explore, why not bring the Bill to a vote, so that we can take it forward to Committee to explore those questions further?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

Order. Before I call Richard Quigley, may I just remind Members that good temper and moderation are the hallmark of this Parliament?

[Mr Quigley]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I wish I had all the answers to his questions, because I am sure it would have saved us time. It is now six minutes to 11, and I could have had a longer breakfast.

Duplicating things for one part of the country does not solve a problem; it creates one. If the SNP cannot manage a shipbuilding contract without going £260 million over budget, what makes us think it would manage immigration efficiently or affordably?

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[Pete Wishart]

I have no idea what the hon. Gentleman is saying. We are trying to offer solutions. We have identified a range of difficulties that we have as a nation. It is right and proper that they be examined, analysed and addressed. Then we get down to the business of fixing them, and that is what we are doing today. This Government are making our situation 10 times worse through their inept, callous and heinous attempt to socially engineer the benefit system to suppress our birth rate, at the very time when we need more children. We need larger families.

All around Europe, countries face the same range of issues. What are they doing? They are not having a two-child benefit cap. They are incentivising young people to have children by giving tax breaks and positive benefits to make sure that the birth rate increases. What are the Labour Government doing in the UK? They are, shamefully, trying to suppress our birth rate. I challenge any of them to get to their feet and tell me how a two-child benefit cap helps to increase our birth rate in Scotland. Go on!

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

Order. I remind the hon. Gentleman that this debate is about devolving immigration to Scotland.

[Pete Wishart]

Okay. Right, let us look at Scotland’s population then. Scotland’s population is probably in the region of 5.5 million. Some estimates are 5.43 million and some are 5.7 million. We have been in population decline since the latter part of the 20th century. This is an issue that particularly interests and excites me. I think the Scottish Affairs Committee has done three reports on it, and I think Secretary of State served on the Committee during one of the inquiries on Scotland’s migration issues. Those were helpful reports, and hopefully they add to the debate. I am glad that a few people have referenced them. We got down to the serious business of trying to address the issue. I congratulate the Blair Government, which was visionary when it came to immigration; it was imaginative. Tony Blair opened up eastern Europe through accession, which helped our issues in Scotland. For a while, that reversed our long-term population decline.

The Tony Blair Government also gave us fresh talent. It gave people an opportunity to come to study at one of our world-class universities and stay and contribute to the Scottish economy for a period of their early lives. It was fantastic. It was backed by the UK Government and the Scottish Government, with overwhelming support from hon. Members in this House. The policy was then subsumed by a general UK policy, which meant that we lost our advantage.

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[Joani Reid]

My hon. Friend rightly points out the outrageous situation that so many women in Scotland have faced over the last few years. Does she agree that if Scotland wants to attract more immigrants and more migrants, it needs to understand women’s issues more coherently?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

Order. I am grateful for that intervention, because I remind Members to please keep in scope of the Bill.

[Tonia Antoniazzi]

That was the point I was going to make: if we want to make Scotland a more attractive place to go, we have to be inclusive and ensure that we look after women and girls.

Does anyone have an idea of how the Scottish Government would police this issue when there is no border? From my time as a shadow Northern Ireland Minister, and even now as the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, I know the ongoing challenges there are with electronic travel authorisation for tourists from outside the EU, many of whom will likely travel into the Republic of Ireland first before trying to visit Northern Ireland. With no border on the island of Ireland, there are still unanswered questions about how that would be managed, and I foresee the same challenges in Scotland. Has any consideration been given to that?

How do the Scottish Government propose to deal with the sudden, humongous immigration caseload, thanks to the backlog created by the last Tory Government’s diabolical record on immigration? This would not be a case of a new Scottish home department starting from zero, because that is just impossible. This Bill just is not a practical proposal.

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[Tonia Antoniazzi]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for the intervention, but it is just a shame that the SNP did not give hospitality the rates relief it had in England. That is an issue that needs to be considered.

Just in February, I spoke at an event celebrating young apprentices in the hospitality industry—restaurants, pub chains and breweries all together recognising the importance of hospitality apprenticeships in a growing sector. Support for this sector in Scotland has been seen as less desirable, especially on business rates, as I said. UKHospitality research shows that a typical local pub in Scotland will have to pay £12,000 more in rates bills than a similar business in England. Industry leaders have argued that while support is available elsewhere in the UK, Scotland’s hospitality sector is being left behind. Trying to fix this with a larger migrant workforce is just not viable when businesses are already struggling. The best way to address problems in this sector is through investment, upskilling and tackling economic inactivity, and the best way to enable this is for our devolved nations to work together, linking up migration, skills and labour market policies.

The Scottish Government want to introduce a new rural visa pilot to encourage migration to remote and rural communities where the population is declining. Is that any wonder when over 1,400 bus routes have been lost between 2006-07 and 2023-24, including 190 in the last year alone, and when a pilot that removed peak rail prices has been scrapped, meaning a total rise in rail fares of between 20% and 200%? It is simply unfair to encourage people to live in these rural communities—which are beautiful—when the infrastructure they need to function is not there.

I do not want to be accused of being anti-change; I am definitely not that person. Devolution is a process, not an event, and I am not saying here today that the devolution package should never change. I do not believe my party is saying that today, and we have a lot to say. What I do think, however, is that now is not the time. Any changes deserve a careful, thought-out and scrutinised process. The question is whether this Bill would benefit the people of Scotland now, and the answer is no.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Judith Cummins)]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.