Media Bill (Fourth sitting)

John Whittingdale Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 7th December 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Vickers. I will speak to clause 32, and the other clauses about S4C. I welcome the clauses, as do many people in Wales. They arise from the 2018 review carried out by Euryn Ogwen Williams, one of the great figures of television in Wales for many years. I expected an avalanche of complaints, possible amendments and new clauses from my compatriots; however, I am afraid that there is complete silence from them, so I will speak fairly briefly—perhaps to the relief of some members of the Committee. That silence is perhaps a measure of people’s qualified satisfaction with the channel, and is due to it being such a normal part of life. It has been normalised, and is no longer the matter of dispute that it was when I was a student, many years ago, campaigning in its favour. Having been a permanent Member of the Opposition in this place for the last 22 years, I am in the rather strange position of agreeing with the Government and supporting a Government Bill; it is a very peculiar feeling.

I come back to the S4C clauses—I may slip into calling it ès-pedwar-èc, which is what it is usually called in Wales. I was looking for an explanation from outside broadcast television. I know quite a bit about language planning, and there are two principles there that may help us to understand what is happening: the principles of normalisation and institutionalisation. Normalisation is just that—making something that was at one point new, novel and a subject of dispute unremarkable. As I said, I think that is what has happened to an extent with S4C.

The other principle is institutionalisation—that is, when someone switches the machine on in Wales, the output comes out bilingually, or in one language or the other. That process has happened through a great number of public institutions in Wales. Hon. Members may have seen lobbying or advertising material from public bodies and third-sector bodies in Wales that has .cymru at the end. Some time ago, when I chaired the language committee of the Central Council for Education and Training in Social Work, I had a leaflet through the post from the office in London, and it was bilingual. I phoned the staff up in Cardiff and asked, “Is this your work?” They said, “No, what is it?” I said, “It was nothing to do with me either.” When we checked, we found that the machine had just produced it in Welsh, because now the process was institutionalised.

That is one way of seeing what is happening to S4C; it is now being treated as any other public service broadcaster. That is as it should be—but, of course, S4C is a special case. I am not pleading any special rights for S4C, but it is the only Welsh language television broadcaster in the universe, I suppose, if I might possibly venture to say so. Hon. and right hon. Members can, if they choose, switch to Sky, Channel 4, ITV or perhaps even GB News—who knows?—but no such facility is available to Welsh speakers. S4C has a specific and very special place in cultural and democratic life in Wales. It is 40 years old. I am happy to say that it was established by a Conservative Government—by Mrs Thatcher’s Government—40 years ago. Eventually, she could not resist a deputation made up of a Labour party grandee, the Archbishop of Wales and a senior ex-civil servant, who told her that, unfortunately, she had to produce a Welsh language channel. Apparently, she said, “Do I have to?” They said, “I’m afraid you do, Prime Minister,” and she did.

Those were some points about S4C as a special case. I welcome the removal of the geographical restriction on S4C. There are S4C viewers outside Wales—perhaps quite a lot of them, as I said this morning; who knows? They can now much more easily access the channel’s digital and online services. Bringing S4C in line with other public service broadcasters is welcome. It must be put on a par with larger broadcasters, because it provides the same sort of service: it is a generic broadcaster that produces anything from game shows to gardening programmes, but in the medium of Welsh.

On Tuesday, I think, I spoke about the demography of the language, and why that was relevant. The conventional way of thinking about minority languages is that they are the language of the old people, and young people modernise and speak the other language. For instance, I have Polish friends whose grandparents spoke Polish when they escaped communism after the war. The grandchildren do not speak it at all, and the parents occupy some sort of intermediate space. Paradoxically, the Welsh-speaking population is getting younger; young people are learning the language. People of my generation, who were not taught Welsh in the ’60s, are still about—language change takes a very long time—and the proportion of older people who speak Welsh, about a fifth, is much lower than the proportion of younger people who speak Welsh, which is about a third.

That leads me to mention, with some pride, S4C’s provision for children, including mine. There is a dedicated service called “Cyw”, which means chicken, chick or young person. It produces all kinds of content for children in the medium of Welsh. It has its own YouTube channel. It has roadshows, books, badges, balloons and biros—the whole lot. It is extremely popular. Allowing S4C wider prominence will allow even more children to absorb the language in an easily accessible way—by seeing it on telly, absorbing it as they do English. I see that with my children, who were monoglot Welsh speakers until they were about five or six, and are now thoroughly bilingual.

In the ’60s, living in west Wales, I had the pleasure and advantage of accessing Raidió Teilifís Éireann; we could watch Irish television as well as the BBC. There was no ITV available at the time. On RTÉ, we could see American shows much sooner than they appeared on the BBC; the Irish had a certain advantage. That is an early example of something that came up this morning: the value of choice. People these days can choose what they like; we could choose BBC Wales or RTÉ. I sometimes think that watching RTÉ as a child accounts for my accent. Who knows?

Moving quickly on, clause 33, which concerns the board, puts in place the recommendations of the 2018 review. A shadow board has been operating for some time, and I think it seems to be trouble-free. Clause 34 is on accounts and audit. The Comptroller and Auditor General is already the BBC’s external auditor, and there are no issues with that also being the case for S4C; it perhaps normalises its position as a PSB like any other.

Finally, the possibly more worrying—or possibly not—clause 35 changes the previously fixed approach in which the BBC was required to provide at least 10 hours of programmes in Welsh per week to S4C. It allows for alternative arrangements. The contribution of the BBC is highly valued and of a high standard. It produces the news and various other things, including what I think is the longest running soap opera in the universe. “Pobol y Cwm” has been going for a very long time and has a devoted audience, not only in Wales but slightly beyond the border.

The worry is that replacing statutory provision with an agreement that requires a high degree of trust might not work. That was tested in the past, when the licence fee was cut substantially and the funding for S4C was cut substantially. The BBC’s provision, which was set in law, was very much valued. One wonders what will happen if the BBC has further cuts—who knows? Without the 10-hour arrangement, will those cuts be knocked on to S4C?

However, one of the outstanding successful features of S4C is that it obtains programming from more than 50 independent companies, many of which are located in my constituency. People are occasionally slightly surprised when they ask me where I represent and I say, “I represent Arfon, and the main industries in Arfon are agriculture, tourism, the production of blood-testing machines and television programmes.” That is considered slightly peculiar for what is seen by some people as the back of beyond—that depends on where you start from, of course; it could also be said about London. S4C obtains much of its programming from those companies, and that is highly valued.

All I am really asking for is any observations that the Minister might have about the danger for S4C of cuts to the BBC’s provision. Otherwise, I am very glad to support these clauses.

[The Minister for Media, Tourism and Creative Industries (Sir John Whittingdale)]

I am grateful to Opposition Members for their general support for these clauses. The hon. Member for Arfon has taken us through the history of S4C, and he is right to say that it now has widespread acceptance and has become part of the institutional landscape. There is only one part of what he said that I would question: having worked as political secretary to Margaret Thatcher for five years before I entered this place, I can assure him that she would not have done anything unless she wanted to do it.

The hon. Gentleman raised a point about the BBC’s funding of S4C. The Government determine the funding for S4C. It merely comes from the licence fee pot. The BBC is being given knowledge of its funding for the coming year in today’s statement by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. That does not affect the funding of S4C, which has already been determined. The hon. Gentleman also spoke about the flexibility that we are giving S4C and the BBC to determine, potentially, alternative arrangements for the BBC’s support for S4C. That was a request from S4C, which saw it as a benefit that it might receive other forms of support from the BBC, but of course it will have to be by agreement, so the BBC will not be able to change that unless S4C and the BBC reach an agreement together.

The hon. Member for Barnsley East asked for further details about the Secretary of State’s power to approve commercial activities of S4C. We feel that allowing that to be done in writing, rather than by order, provides greater flexibility. The timescale for taking advantage of commercial opportunities, together with the confidential nature of the activities sometimes involved, makes it difficult to do that by order. The Secretary of State will be required to publish any approvals, exempting only confidential matters, and the Secretary of State of course remains accountable to Parliament. I do not think that there is any cause for concern in either case.

The clause is essentially based on the recommendations of the review of S4C, which the hon. Member for Arfon pointed out was widely welcomed across Wales.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 32 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 33 to 36 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 4 agreed to.

Clause 37

Tier 1 services

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[Stephanie Peacock]

I am pleased that we are making good progress in scrutinising the Bill, having reached part 4 on the regulation of on-demand services. We have spoken at length about the growth and popularity of on-demand services, so it may come as a surprise to some members of the public that the content on most of our video on-demand services is not regulated. We are all used to high standards, thanks to the high-quality content provided by PSBs, which we see when we turn on our television set, and the regulatory landscape that complements that content; but it is easy not to consider whether regulatory standards apply to content on demand. Indeed, the high standards set by our PSBs have played a big part in creating an atmosphere in which newer streaming services have had to provide content of the highest standards. They have to model best practice to compete with traditional television.

That has put us on a good footing, and the streaming services and on-demand providers I have spoken to actually welcome the regulatory clarity that a new regime will provide. Currently, if a complaint is received against a piece of on-demand content, the service that has provided that content has nowhere to point towards in handling that complaint, and does not have to prove compliance with a regulatory regime. Part 4 brings on-demand services under the scope of Ofcom, and gives it new responsibilities, including to follow a new on-demand code. It is a good thing for viewers and providers, who will benefit from consistent high standards in the on-demand space.

However, I have concerns regarding the proposed tiered approach to the framework. Clause 37 and schedule 5 both set out that only tier 1 services will be regulated under the new regime. The only real information we have about how tier 1 will be defined, however, is that it will be based on size, which is determined by audience figures, turnover and catalogues.

In many areas of the Bill, there has rightly been a desire to avoid being too prescriptive in the primary legislation in order to allow flexibility in the light of rapidly changing technological advances and viewer habits, but in the uncertainty and lack of detail about on-demand services has been troublesome for some providers. Netflix said in its submission to the Culture, Media and Sport Committee that without clarity on scope, there was no way for it to tell whether the scope will ultimately be discriminatory.

I know that there are good intentions behind taking what might be considered to be a proportionate approach that avoids placing new burdens on smaller video services that are trying to grow and compete with much larger services. However, the approach could create perverse incentives. One can imagine smaller services becoming averse to growing, for fear of meeting the regulatory threshold and having to contort their services to comply.

Putting all services on a level playing field will ensure that no service is deterred from competing with those at the very top, and no one at the bottom can feel that the situation is unfair, or that they are being unfairly given burdens that others are not. Further, everyone will be given an entire year’s grace period in which to become compliant; that will ensure that those who are less prepared can come up to speed.

Perhaps even more pressing than the impact of the tiered approach on providers, however, is the effect that it will have on viewers. As the CMS Committee highlighted, the Government said that part of their purpose in introducing the provisions was

“to protect audiences from the potential harm arising from the gaps in the existing regulatory framework”

and to

“ensure UK audiences receive a similar level of protection no matter how they watch television— whether it be live or on-demand.”

Clearly, requiring only the largest video-on-demand providers to abide by the new regulatory scheme would not achieve that aim. For the average viewer who does not invest their leisure time in understanding the nuances of a tier 1 service, a category in which I believe most of the general public will fall, how will such a person possibly be aware whether they are watching a regulated service?

To strive to create a consistent regulatory approach between broadcast and on-demand services, while simultaneously creating an inconsistency within the regulation for on-demand services, seems counterintuitive. Viewers deserve to have certainty over the level of protection they are being provided with. Put simply, I believe that the best way to meet that aim is for the new video-on-demand code, and the various other changes in this part of the Bill, to be applied universally across all video-on-demand services watched by UK audiences.

Such a move has been also recommended by everyone from the Culture, Media and Sport Committee and the Voice of the Listener & Viewer to Amazon and Netflix. Including all services would provide the harmonisation in regulatory approach that I believe the clause sets out to achieve. It would get rid of confusion for viewers and prevent any definition from being discriminatory or drawing what could have been a somewhat arbitrary line between services.

If the Government cannot accept my amendments, which would pave the way, I would be grateful if the Minister at least explained their current plans for the definition of tier 1 at this stage, and detail how they will work to create consistency in experience for viewers. I believe that we are on the same page about the importance of the new framework and what it could achieve, and I hope we can work constructively to ensure that it is the best it can be.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I welcome the hon. Lady’s general support for what the Government are trying to do by bringing video-on-demand services within the scope of regulation. We believe it is important for audiences to be appropriately protected when watching TV on demand. We will do that through what we see as a proportionate regulatory approach, which will ensure that all the mainstream streaming services that target UK audiences are subject to rules similar to the existing ones governing UK TV broadcasters.

Under the Bill, any UK on-demand service used by a PSB other than the BBC will automatically be designated as tier 1. Alongside that, other mainstream TV-like video-on-demand services will be designated after the Media Bill comes into force, following a review of the market by Ofcom. I can tell the hon. Lady that all the streaming services with which most people are familiar will certainly come under tier 1, but at this stage we cannot publish a list or the general categories to determine it because the market is rapidly evolving. Once again, as elsewhere in the Bill, we want to have a degree of flexibility and we believe that regulatory change needs to be proportionate and practical.

At the moment, more than 270 video-on-demand services are notified with Ofcom. Many of them simply do not provide TV-like content and nor are they widely accessible, so it is important to balance audience protection with freedom of expression, and to avoid placing unnecessary burdens on them. Consultations that have been conducted already tell us that extending tier 1 regulations to the smallest niche services, such as a football team’s on-demand service, could unfairly and unnecessarily penalise them with little or no benefit to audience protection.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

I understand what my right hon. Friend is saying, and I am very supportive of a tier system, but a broadcaster on linear TV, be it a football station or a new start-up, would be bound by the Ofcom broadcasting code. Why would rules in the new online environment be different from those for someone who holds a broadcast licence in the linear world? That does not seem to make a lot of sense.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

My hon. Friend is right that at the moment linear TV channels are required to be licensed by Ofcom, but in the new world it is much more likely that we are going to see quite small niche channels, which serve a particular audience. There has been a proliferation of such services, which simply could not really have taken place in the old linear world. That is why the Government felt it was right that new services that command considerable audiences and target a broad range of viewers should be subject to the same sorts of requirements as exist for linear broadcasters.

However, it would be excessive to place those requirements on every single new notified VOD service, including those that are relatively small and serve very small and defined audiences. If it is determined that a small service has the potential to cause harm, the Bill allows that it can be designated as tier 1. The Government retain the power to do so if there is evidence supporting a need for it. That will allow us to ensure that regulation can be updated or added to.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

I can very much see the logic that the Minister describes. To recall my private Member’s Bill on small-scale DAB, one of the issues was that people could use a laptop to set up an online radio station in their bedroom with no regulation at all, or they had to jump up to being a large broadcasting operation. I agree with the Minister that there is a logic to having a tiered system, so that we do not have either no regulation at all for those online or, for any form of broadcasting, regulation on the level of a very large operation.

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[Sir John Whittingdale]

My hon. Friend is right that there are different levels of service that require different amounts of monitoring and oversight. To my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South, I would say that UK-based on-demand services are already required to abide by the on-demand programme service rules, which are less restrictive than the Ofcom regulations but control things such as hate speech and have basic protections for young audiences. It is appropriate that we determine the appropriate level of regulation on the basis of the audience and the size of the station. As I say, Parliament will be given further information that sets out the list or description of services at least five sitting days ahead of any regulation, so there will be transparency and oversight. For that reason, we do not feel it necessary to bring all the existing video-on-demand services within tier 1 at this time.

[Stephanie Peacock]

I am, of course, aware of the complexity of removing the tier 1 element from the Bill at this stage, and I acknowledge that agreeing to this set of amendments would create difficulties for the Bill more generally. I was aware of that when drafting the amendments, but I wanted to raise the issue that the Bill is perhaps not clear enough about—what the video-on-demand provisions will apply to and how audiences would receive the certainty they need. The Minister has alleviated some of those concerns today, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

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[Sir John Whittingdale]

I think that there is general agreement across the Committee about the importance of archiving television programmes that are of cultural significance. That is already the case, as we know, for the public service broadcasters. Indeed, I can recall the excitement when various episodes of, for instance, “Doctor Who” or “Only Fools and Horses” were rediscovered, having been lost before the requirement for archiving was in place. The hon. Member for Aberdeen North is absolutely right that there are now examples of programmes or series commissioned by on-demand services that are of similar value—she mentioned “Bridgerton”, for instance. I was fortunate enough to go and see the final episode of “The Crown”, which Netflix showed us a couple of night ago, in advance of its being made available, and that undoubtedly will be seen for a long time to come as a culturally important programme that needs to be preserved.

Where we differ slightly is that the Government’s view is that a non-legislative approach is best able to achieve the objective of archiving on-demand content. The BFI is extremely active in this area and works directly with mainstream services such as Netflix and Amazon. The BFI National Archive has already entered into initial partnerships with Netflix and Amazon to provide both financial contributions and a curated selection of their UK content. The BFI is also talking to other subscription video-on-demand platforms and will continue to do so as it moves ahead with its Screen Culture 2033 ambitions.

We are pleased that considerable progress is being made and we do not want to impose unnecessary additional requirements on organisations at this time. Therefore we do not see a necessity to legislate at the moment.

[Kirsty Blackman]

I appreciate that, and I appreciate the work that the BFI is doing on this. In the event that the BFI found it particularly difficult to get an agreement with an on-demand service, would the Government assist with some of the conversations in order to ensure that the cultural heritage is preserved, if they were asked to give some level of assistance or if the BFI were struggling with some level of intransigence?

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I recall discussing this matter with the BFI some years ago and I absolutely share its wish, and indeed the hon. Lady’s wish, that it should have access to any of the programming content that it felt was important to preserve. I hope that the circumstances that she describes will not happen, but should they do so, I or whoever is holding my position would, I hope, be keen to assist in those discussions with any video-on-demand provider.

Finally, I come to the amendment that the hon. Lady tabled. Amendment 38 includes Trinity College Dublin, which of course is not a UK institution, and we do not feel that it would be appropriate to instruct the deposit of important works with an overseas institution. For that reason, and for the reasons that I have described, we cannot accept the amendment.

[Kirsty Blackman]

I thank the Minister very much and genuinely appreciate the way in which he has approached this amendment. I am pleased that around the room we are happy and keen to see the archiving of lots of culturally important television footage and on-demand footage as well. I believe, from what the Minister has said, that he has a good handle on this, and I am glad to hear that he does feel that it is important enough for the possibility of intervention in the future should a significant gap be identified. Hopefully, as he says, we will not get to the point at which that happens. Given the Minister’s comments, I am happy to beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 28, in schedule 5, page 142, line 34, at end insert—

“(3A) In preparing or revising a code under section 368HF, OFCOM must take account of how principles will apply in a video-on-demand context where there is a library of content where users choose what programmes to watch and when.”

This amendment would place a requirement on Ofcom, when preparing the Video on Demand code, to consider how principles will apply in a VoD context where there is a library of content where users choose what programmes to watch and when.

Schedules 5 to 7.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

We now come to the core of this part of the Bill, which is the extension of regulation to the major video-on-demand services. Take-up has grown dramatically in recent years, and many of them make a significant contribution to the UK economy. Audiences now have access to thousands of hours of their favourite television programmes at the touch of a button, but providers are not regulated in the UK to the same extent as linear TV channels, and some mainstream international services are not regulated in the UK at all. That means that TV-like content in the UK is regulated differently depending on how audiences choose to watch it.

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[Stephanie Peacock]

I completely agree. That is the point I am attempting to convey to the Committee: that we want to see everyday life reflected on television, and that obviously includes disabled people. What work is the Minister’s Department doing to open up opportunities for disabled people in the creative industries and to encourage better representation in the media?

As I have said before, if we to implement a new regime whose effects we really believe in, but that regime relies on Ofcom being a strong regulatory presence, Ofcom must be empowered to act with strength where that is needed; otherwise, the desired impact will not be realised. As such, I am happy with the powers set out in schedule 6, but what recent conversations has the Minister had with Ofcom about its capacity to carry out all the new duties bestowed upon it by the Bill? It is important to the integrity of the new regime for on-demand services, and to the Bill more widely, that there is confidence on all sides in Ofcom’s ability to enforce the new regulation.

Schedule 7 amends references to tier 1 services in the Representation of the People Act 1983, the Communications Act 2003, the Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 and the Online Safety Act 2023. I will speak specifically about the amendments to the Broadcasting Act 1996, as those changes will have a more tangible impact. The changes in this schedule require Ofcom to create a tier 1 fairness and privacy code and to bring tier 1 services in line with Ofcom’s enforcement powers on breaches of the fairness and privacy code. Hopefully, that will protect members of the public from unwarranted infringements of privacy resulting from the activities of video-on-demand services, but some on-demand and streaming services, particularly Netflix, have raised concerns about the impact on their content and on Ofcom’s resources. They warn that, since the fairness and privacy code will enable complaints to be made from outside the UK, Ofcom could become something of a global policeman, and will have use its resources dealing with complaints from people who do not live in the UK but have failed to seek redress elsewhere.

That practice—complaint tourism—is of particular concern to Netflix in relation to its catalogue. It says it is aware of international complainants previously trying to use the UK regulator to get material removed. It appears from the pre-legislative scrutiny process that Ofcom does not share those concerns. Its approach seems to be that if harm is happening, or there is a risk of harm to UK audiences, it wants to know, regardless of whether a complaint is being raised by someone outside the UK. However, it would be reassuring if the Government and Ofcom worked together to monitor the extent to which the code requires Ofcom to manage a high volume of complaints from abroad, to ensure that genuine complaints can be handled appropriately and that complaints with malicious intent are not encouraged.

Overall, I hope it is clear that I am pleased that the on-demand services will finally be regulated. I look forward to hearing more from the Minister in response to my questions about the details.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

As I said in my earlier remarks, we feel that the hon. Lady’s amendment in particular is unnecessary. Regarding the phrase “matters to be taken into account” by Ofcom in drawing up the list, those matters that are specified in the Bill are not exclusive; there is an ability to take other matters into account. The purpose of this measure is to set out the general regard for the principles that Ofcom is required to consider, so I do not think that this amendment would add anything to the existing position. For that reason, we do not support it.

I agree with the hon. Lady very much about the importance of accessibility. As she rightly said, that is something that the organisations representing disabled people have been campaigning on for a long time. Regarding the targets in the Bill, it is the hope and expectation that broadcasters will exceed the minimum targets wherever possible, but it is possible for the Secretary of State to increase the minimum targets at some future date.

Interestingly, the hon. Lady said that she does not want to add to the burden on smaller services. To some extent, that is exactly why the tier 1 provisions were put in place: so that the requirements are different for much smaller services, which would otherwise find them quite burdensome. As for her comments about Ofcom’s resource, it is certainly not the intention that Ofcom should become a sort of global policeman acting on behalf of anybody around the world who wants to make a complaint, particularly about content that is designed for global audiences. Some of the big streaming platforms commission programmes that are intended to be viewed right around the world, but Ofcom’s role is to protect UK consumers, and obviously it will need to take that into account in how it administers the code.

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her support for the overall intention behind these measures. I am sorry that I cannot accept her amendment, but I think the Bill will deliver what she wants to see.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 37 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedules 5 to 7 agreed to.

Clause 38

Audience protection reviews

[Stephanie Peacock]

I beg to move amendment 30, in clause 38, page 78, line 25, at end insert—

“(e) information about where viewers can seek help if they have been affected by content.”

This amendment would add “signposting” measures to the audience protection measures which OFCOM must review under new section 368OB of the Communications Act 2003.

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I hope it is clear that amendment 34 on age ratings is a tool to ensure that where classifications are used, they meet a certain standard, rather than a prescription to all platforms to use a specific rating system across their whole library. With this important distinction, I hope colleagues can join me in supporting this amendment.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I absolutely share the desire of the hon. Member for Barnsley East, and I suspect all members of the Committee, to protect children and vulnerable audiences from harmful and inappropriate video-on-demand content. As we discussed earlier, the principle underlying this part of the Bill is to bring mainstream TV-like on-demand services in scope of the new code to be drafted and enforced by Ofcom.

Ofcom already has considerable experience in the regulation of broadcast TV to ensure that it is age-appropriate, and those those who may be deeply affected by what they see or hear are protected. Clause 38 inserts new section 368OB into the Communications Act 2003, giving Ofcom a new ongoing duty to review audience protection measures on all UK-based video-on-demand services and on any non-UK services that are brought under Ofcom regulation for the first time as a result of being designated as tier 1.

As we previously discussed, while linear television has a watershed that means unsuitable material should not be shown before 9pm, it is not possible to have a similar arrangement for on-demand content, so alternative protection measures are needed. Age-ratings, content warnings and parental controls in particular are necessary tools for parents and guardians; they give information to all audiences on what they are about to see. We do not want to restrict Ofcom on what it considers to be protection measures. It needs to be able to take account of the impact of systems that evolve in the future through new technology and audience trends. The Bill gives Ofcom powers to request information from providers, to provide guidance, to report, and to use existing sanctioning powers to deal with any providers that they consider are not providing appropriate audience protections.

[Andy Carter]

I accept what the Minister is saying about the role of Ofcom. May I take him back to his earlier point about the 9 o’clock watershed? That was the time when children went to bed so that they did not see things. It was a protection mechanism. One thing that we have seen with the development of technology is the introduction of a children’s profile so that we can exclude children from content on demand.

What concerns me is that all the individual VOD companies rate their own content, and different companies and providers to have a very different view of what they believe is suitable for children. The shadow Minister made a particular point about Disney+. Because my son is taking GCSE English, I watched “A Christmas Carol” the other day; there is a Disney version that was on at 9 pm. I would not have wanted a 16-year-old to watch that. It contained graphic nudity and foul language, and I was very concerned that if I had set the rating at a particular level for a child to watch, they would have been exposed to something that I and most parents would be uncomfortable with them seeing. Can the Minister assure me that the framework that Ofcom puts in place will deliver a comparable and consistent level of protection for children so that families and parents can be assured that the age rating system and the children’s profile will give that layer of protection?

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I am interested to hear that example. There will always be disagreement about what is suitable for children and what is not. Some parents will take a much stronger view on what is appropriate than others, who will think it part of the education. Ofcom has a lot of experience in this. I am not sure whether it was “A Christmas Carol”. I remember a good version that contained some quite graphic material, which perhaps was not in the original by Dickens. I think that was on the BBC, so it would have already been subject to Ofcom’s scrutiny.

Part of Ofcom’s overall objective, in determining whether a system of age rating is appropriate or viable, will be to make sure that it is in line with other systems, so that parents have a basic level of assurance, whatever they are watching and whatever system for determining age ratings is chosen by that provider.

Amendment 30, tabled by the hon. Member for Barnsley East, seeks to add information about where viewers can seek help, if they have been affected by content, to the list in new section 3680B of examples of audience protection measures. I completely agree that it is sometimes absolutely right that audiences be given a warning if they might suddenly encounter content that they were not expecting and which could be distressing. That already takes place across the broadcasting sector, and it is appropriate. However, the Bill already fully enables Ofcom to review or provide guidance on any such measures. The Bill purposely does not give an exhaustive list of measures that Ofcom can consider. As a result, it will enable Ofcom to take into account anything it considers to be appropriate. That can certainly include signposting.

The hon. Lady’s amendment 34 would impose requirements on Ofcom when it is assessing age ratings on VOD services. However, we feel that there is a danger that that might restrict innovation and impose extra requirements and costs on VOD providers that will not necessarily equate to increased protection. As I think I said on Second Reading, I am a great admirer of the work of the BBFC, with which I have worked for at least 30 years. Generally, it reaches very sensible decisions on what is deemed appropriate. It goes to great lengths to ensure that its ratings reflect the current standards of what the public views as appropriate for particular age ratings. My reluctance to support the hon. Lady’s amendment in this area is not in any way a reflection on or a criticism of the BBFC. The Government take the view that we do not think it appropriate to mandate the use of BBFC ratings at this time.

The important thing is that each channel should have a system of age ratings that delivers effective protection for young people. It is for Ofcom to assess whatever audience protection measures are put in place by that channel to ensure that they are effective and fit for purpose. We think that that is more effective than specifying any individual system. Ofcom will have the power it needs to provide guidance and to report and deal with any providers that it considers are not providing appropriate audience protections. For that reason, we feel that amendment 34 would put unnecessary restrictions on Ofcom and could preclude any new form of age ratings from entering the market. I am afraid that I am therefore unable to accept the hon. Lady’s amendments.

[Stephanie Peacock]

I appreciate the Minister’s comments. Although I do not fully agree with his explanation, I am quite happy to withdraw amendment 30.

I will not press amendment 34, but I will just clarify that although I think there is agreement across the Committee that we support and praise the work of the BBFC, my amendment was not specifically mandating BBFC ratings or the use of the BBFC, however well it does. My amendment set out three best practice criteria: recognition, transparency and consultation. It proposed that those three things be taken into account by Ofcom. Obviously the BBFC does that very well, and others might too. The distinction that we are making is that where those are not taken into account and the public cannot necessarily trust age verification ratings, where problems emerge. However, I have put my points on the record and I am happy not to press amendment 34.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 38 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 39

S4C: on-demand programme services

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir John Whittingdale]

This is a very brief return to S4C, which we debated before our lunchtime break. All clause 39 will do is amend the Communications Act to update the regulation of S4C’s video-on-demand services to bring them into line with other UK on-demand services. It removes the red tape that currently means that Clic, the S4C on-demand service, is regulated not by Ofcom directly, but by S4C’s board, which could be fined by Ofcom if it contravened the basic requirements that other VOD services have to follow. The change will also mean that Clic will, in due course, be rightly regulated under Ofcom’s new VOD code. It will also have the accessibility requirements for subtitles, audio description and signing to support those with sight and hearing loss. I should add that the clause is also fully supported by S4C.

[Stephanie Peacock]

Clause 39 will make amendments to the Communications Act to update the regulation of S4C’s video-on-demand services, as the Minister has just outlined. I believe these to be largely technical changes to create consistency, and I therefore have no further comments.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 39 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 40

Other amendments of Part 4A of the 2003 Act

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir John Whittingdale]

Clause 40 introduces schedule 8, which contains minor amendments to part 4A of the Communications Act 2003, covering existing legislation for video-on-demand services. The changes will ensure that existing legislation will be updated where necessary to take into account the new regulatory regime for tier 1 services. These are simple, minor and technical amendments, which include updates to existing enforcement definitions to include the newly defined tier 1 non-UK services. Schedule 8 will also remove or amend old target-setting provisions on accessibility that are not needed after the addition of new, more robust accessibility requirements contained in schedule 5. I commend clause 40 and schedule 8 to the Committee.

[Stephanie Peacock]

I have no particular concerns to raise about the content of the changes. As the Minister said, they make minor amendments to part 4A of the Communications Act, and update requirements and definitions to reflect the changes made in this part, and in the media landscape more generally.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 40 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 8 agreed to.

Clause 41

Licensing of analogue radio services

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir John Whittingdale]

We now turn to part 5 and the provisions affecting radio. Clause 41 is the first of seven clauses through which the Government are updating the legislative framework for the licensing and regulation of commercial radio. The intention behind the changes is to ensure that the regulatory structure continues to support investment by broadcasters in content and the long-term sustainability of the sector. They will also strengthen the protections for local news and information which are a fundamental part of radio’s public value.

To that end, clause 41 will make a number of changes to the Broadcasting Act 1990 to allow Ofcom greater flexibility when exercising its powers in relation to analogue radio licensing. Subsection (2) removes the current statutory requirement for Ofcom to provide for a diversity of analogue services. The requirement is no longer necessary, given the wide range of stations now available over digital. Subsection (3) gives Ofcom a new power to extend analogue licences in the event that a date is set for a digital switchover which postdates the expiry of any remaining licences. I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Stephanie Peacock]

I am pleased we have reached the stage of the Bill when we can discuss the importance of our radio services. There will be further opportunities to talk about protecting radio services in the digital age in part 6, but I would like to begin by acknowledging my support for radio. Indeed, as the digital radio and audio review recognised back in 2021, radio is a great British success story. Almost 90% of the population tune in to the radio each week, where they find trusted news, entertainment, music and cultural programming. It is important that these clauses look to protect the future of those services, from commercial to BBC to community radio, and ensure that people are able to enjoy them for years to come.

Despite the continued popularity of radio, however, the provision of services and listening habits have both changed significantly over the past few decades, particularly with regard to the decline of analogue radio. Since the launch of DAB, its popularity has grown and grown, resulting in 76% of listening to commercial radio now being on digital platforms. That trend has led to an estimate that analogue radio listening will account for just 12% to 14% of all radio listening by 2030. As a result, we must ensure no one who listens to analogue radio is prematurely excluded from accessing those services. As is the case with those who watch broadcast television, it is vital that we update our legislation to reflect the new realities in the sector.

The clause seeks to do just that by removing Ofcom’s duty to provide a range and diversity of national and local analogue radio services. Of course, is still important that a range and diversity of radio services are available. However, the rules applying specifically to analogue services were conceived when there was an inherently limited number of stations. Ensuring diversity within this small range of services was therefore sensible in order to cater for as many people’s needs as possible. Now that we are no longer limited to a small choice of analogue stations, there is an unprecedented range of radio services available. These truly do cater for everyone, covering genres from country to dance, and eras from the ’60s right through to the present day. Radiocentre confirms that these digital services will be unaffected by the changes in regulation, so this immense choice will remain available despite the changes in this Bill.

In that context, it seems appropriate to remove legal requirements on creating diversity in analogue services specifically. That is not to say that analogue services do not remain important; indeed, FM coverage is greater than DAB coverage, so it is vital to rural areas, particularly in Scotland. However, with the new and heavy regulatory responsibilities that Ofcom is taking on as a result of the Online Safety Act and this Bill, it is sensible that we alleviate outdated duties by recognising the bigger picture.

The clause will also make one other major change, following the commercial radio deregulation consultation in 2017. In the event of a digital switchover date being issued for radio, the clause allows Ofcom to extend for a short period any licences that are due to run out before that date, so that they can continue operating until the switchover date. It is my understanding that there is currently no nominated date for switchover. The digital radio and audio review has confirmed that FM spectrum will be needed for BBC, commercial and community analogue radio until at least 2030.

Should a date be announced in future, it makes sense that there be flexibility in licence arrangements to ensure that they can continue until any end date. Placing that flexibility in the Bill will hopefully save parliamentary time in the long run. The very fact that it was 2017 when the Government decided that that change would be made shows how rarely the opportunities come about to make legislative changes. However, although this measure will be sensible if the time comes, it is still very important for the timing to be right. It would therefore be good if the Minister outlined today the Department’s current thinking on the future of analogue radio beyond 2030. As has been mentioned, although we must take into account the dominance and range of DAB services provided, DAB is not available as widely as FM. The future of FM is still vital to people, particularly in rural areas.

As I did in speaking about broadcast television, I point to the Broadcast 2040+ campaign and its work to highlight the importance of preserving broadcast services despite the rise of online services; I was pleased to attend its event in Parliament. It is with that question on analogue radio’s future in mind, and with full support for the future of a diverse programme of radio services, that I would like to conclude.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I welcome the hon. Lady’s invitation to speak a little more broadly on radio in general. About 20 years ago, lots of people were saying that radio was in permanent decline. It was thought that the advent of things like podcasts and streaming services such as Spotify would mean that people slowly gave up listening to radio.

I am delighted that that has proved to be completely wrong. Actually, radio is going from strength to strength, particularly in the commercial radio sector, at which these clauses of the Bill are primarily aimed. It is doing very well, which is extremely welcome.

Similarly, about 20 years ago there was a great debate about when we should switch off analogue transmission as people moved to digital. The hon. Lady is right to say that the take-up of digital broadcasting has been considerable and continues to grow. We now have additional means of radio reception, such as via smart speakers or online, which we will debate when we consider later clauses of the Bill. There is a wealth of ways in which listeners can access radio, but I think analogue, rather like digital terrestrial television, will be around for some considerable time. I am afraid that I cannot give the hon. Lady a date by which we think we might switch off analogue, but it is not under consideration at the moment. Actually, I do not think that radio is particularly pressing for it in the way it was some time ago, for cost reasons.

[Andy Carter]

rose—

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I give way to my hon. Friend, who is a considerable expert in the matter.

[Andy Carter]

I will limit my comments on the clause to analogue radio. I am aware that there are community radio operators that would very much like to go on to the analogue spectrum, particularly in rural areas. Rutland and Stamford Sound has been providing a community service that would simply not work on DAB. I set up the first commercial radio station in Rutland. I know the territory incredibly well, and it does not work to run a small-scale service on DAB. So many transmitters would be needed that it just simply would not be viable. There is an operator there that wants to run an FM service. Will the Minister speak to Ofcom to look at offering more licences in rural areas where there is demand?

The second point I would like to raise with the Minister is also an issue for Ofcom. Where there has been small-scale DAB roll-out, we have many more excellent local services as a result, and I am supportive of it. However, the fact that the signal and reception of small-scale DAB are measured from a height of 10 foot, which is equivalent to the eaves of a house, has given rise to disappointment in communities. Not many radio receivers have aerials that high, so although it says on a graph that someone can hear it in a car down on the ground, the reality is that they cannot. Ofcom could look at that to improve small-scale DAB radio coverage at a local level.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

My hon. Friend is correct that attention has mainly been focused on small-scale DAB roll-out, which provides options for communities to access more locally based stations. My view has always been that we should let a thousand flowers bloom. Therefore, in whatever format, I would be keen to encourage the licensing and starting up of new stations, if possible. I am a great supporter of community radio as well.

I note that our hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alicia Kearns) has been active in pressing the case for a station in her constituency. She is always active on behalf of her constituents and she has been outspoken in this policy area, having already been to see me about it once. I will draw Ofcom’s attention to the remarks of my hon. Friends the Members for Warrington South and for Rutland and Melton, because I share the wish to see that take place, if possible.

The means by which they choose to transmit is up to stations. However, there is currently a requirement under their licence for national commercial stations to continue to maintain an analogue service. A point may come when there is no longer any particular benefit in doing so. That will not be covered by the Bill, but I would like to put on the record that I am personally quite sympathetic to the idea that, although analogue is appropriate in many cases, we should not necessarily force it where it is no longer appropriate.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 41 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 42

Licensing and local services

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[The Chair]

With this, it will be convenient to debate clause 43 stand part.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

Clause 42 makes a number of changes to the Ofcom process for advertising local and restricted service licences and for renewing local licences. The provisions will give Ofcom a greater degree of flexibility in relation to the process for the licensing of local analogue commercial radio stations, given that the licences for nearly all such services will be eligible for renewal over the coming years. There should therefore be very few occasions when a licence needs to be advertised.

Subsection (3) will allow a licence holder to renew its licence in circumstances where the station intends to broadcast on digital but is not in a position to do so because a suitable digital multiplex service is not available in its broadcast area. In these circumstances, the station would have to nominate a suitable, either local or small scale, multiplex service as soon as it is reasonably possible to do so and commit to taking carriage when that service launches. That will ensure that smaller stations that have been unable to take advantage of renewals will be in the same position as larger stations.

Clause 43 makes a number of changes to the Broadcasting Act 1990 and the Communications Act 2003. It provides stations with increased flexibility to respond to changing listener preferences by removing the requirement for them to commit and adhere to conditions in their licences requiring them to, for instance, broadcast specific genres of content or target a particular age group. These requirements made sense in 1990, when they helped the Radio Authority to manage the development of local FM services on limited spectrum and to seek to maximise the public value of the spectrum, but they have become obsolete given the range of stations available across the UK on digital. However, Ofcom will still be required to ensure that there is local news and information on local radio, as set out in clause 44, which I look forward to debating very shortly. In the meantime, I commend the clauses to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephanie Peacock]

If the hon. Member bears with me, I will give him the answer and the opportunity to perhaps vote for the amendment, too.

I want to raise the importance of local programming that is not also local news. Although I understand that there is a range of DAB services offering a whole host of programmes, it is a shame that there has not been some recognition of the value of non-news-related local programming among the changes, which dropped requirements on local spoken material and music. Again, as I spoke to in the debates on BBC local radio services, I hope that a range of the content continues to be delivered on local analogue services, as well as digital ones.

On the newly relaxed requirements on production, which mean that stations can provide local programming from studios outside the coverage of their area, I note that concerns were raised during the consultation process about the impact of that on local opportunities and routes in the industry, with production becoming concentrated in larger cities. Respondents said that a local presence can be important for listeners who want to feel connected to the content the station produces, so they might be less likely to engage with call-ins and competitions if they feel presenters and production are not based where they are.

I understand the need to carefully balance requirements on analogue services and to release undue burdens where possible, particularly given the changing landscape of listenership and the fact that there are no such localness requirements on DAB commercial services. However, I would still like to ask the Minister whether the Government have assessed the impact the requirement relaxations will have on listeners and local people, rather than just on the services themselves. It is important that communities and those who actually benefit from local radio services are taken into account.

Separate to the requirements on analogue services, the clause also provides the Government with the ability to introduce local news obligations on DAB radio services in the event that analogue services cease at some point in the future. It is my understanding that multiplex owners will be responsible for requiring that there is at least one digital local radio service that carries local news, rather than that being a direct obligation on the radio services themselves. Radiocentre, which represents the commercial radio sector, has said that it is sensible to introduce the powers to guarantee the provision of local news in the future. Indeed, I have already discussed how important local news is to local people.

Radiocentre has also shared that it is not entirely clear how that will work in practice. I would therefore be grateful if the Minister could explain, in the event of the power, how multiplexes would decide which service must carry local news. Furthermore, in the event that the chosen service stops doing so, or goes out of business, how would the obligation be transferred to another service? Lastly, how would all that be enforced between Ofcom and the multiplex owners? What conversations has the Minister had with both Ofcom and the multiplex owners, including Arqiva, to ensure readiness when the time comes? The preservation of local news is very important, and I look forward to hearing some clarity on how the new system could work.

Finally, I tabled amendment 31 on what counts as local news, which was raised by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport during the pre-legislative scrutiny process. Indeed, the Committee noted that in 2017 the Government promised to provide greater legislative clarity on what local news actually meant, and stated that it would enable Ofcom to produce guidance in the policy area. However, the issue was never fully resolved, leading to Ofcom calling for clearer guidance regarding its responsibility to enforce the provision of locally gathered news.

In its submission to the Committee, Ofcom said:

“We think it is important the Bill is clear what is intended by this new requirement.”

In response, although the Government said that they accepted

“the principle that the definition and enforcement of the obligations on local radio to provide locally-gathered news could be clearer”,

there was a lack of detail on how they would put this principle into practice, other than references to some technical changes on the face of the Bill. I would therefore be grateful if the Minister could talk us through the technical changes and how, or whether, they might be able to act as a replacement for full guidance on this issue. In the absence of such confirmation or detail in the Government’s response to the Select Committee report, I felt it important to raise the issue again. It seems like people from all parties in the House and, indeed, radio services and viewers alike can agree on the importance of local news and information, but if the new requirements on local news are not enforced properly, such unanimous agreement is futile. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

Perhaps I should start by outlining the purpose of clause 44, which makes changes to section 314 of the Communications Act to reflect the evolution of the market and the findings of the Government’s 2017 consultation on commercial radio deregulation.

In particular, it is clear from that consultation, and the steps taken since by Ofcom to relax its definition of locally made programming, that the requirements in this area are too onerous and are constraining the industry from rationalising its production base. This is making it harder for stations to compete effectively against new online services, so the clause removes the requirement for Ofcom to secure that stations provide a certain amount of programming from a studio within their coverage area. However, it is the case that local news and information remain of great importance to listeners, and their provision remains central to radio’s public value. Commercial radio’s local news provision plays an important role in ensuring plurality in the sector. Stations will, then, be specifically required to provide news that has been gathered within the area to which they broadcast.

The provisions do not require stations to directly employ journalists to gather local news. A station could, for example, enter into a partnership with a newspaper agency or a freelance journalist who gathers news in the local area. We also taking powers to apply the requirements to DAB services if there is a future shortage of available local news. This could take a variety of forms—for example, Ofcom could be required to impose conditions in local radio multiplex licences that require the multiplex operator to carry at least one digital radio station that carries local news and information. Alternatively, the multiplex operator could be required to reserve capacity on the multiplex for a radio service that carries local news and information. At the moment, many existing digital radio services are simulcast versions of analogue stations that carry local news and information, so we do not consider that there is currently a need to consider in detail how the powers would be exercised.

Amendment 31 seeks to add a requirement for the Government to publish statutory guidance on the interpretation of the clause, including on the meaning of “local news”. Ofcom would then need to have regard to that guidance in developing its own guidance for holders of local sound broadcast licences on how they are able to meet the new local news and information requirements as set out in the Bill.

[Andy Carter]

I want to press the Minister a little more on the requirement on the multiplex operator to deliver news services. If, for example, a multiplex is full, and contracted legal licences to deliver product for 10 years are already in place, but the operator now has a requirement to deliver news, how can they do that? They are not providing the service; they are contracting space to other radio operators. I am interested in the practical application of the Bill where a multiplex provider is required to ensure local news provision.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

That is a matter for Ofcom to determine. As I said, Ofcom will be able to ensure that a local radio multiplex, through its licence, can provide space for a local news service. For the moment, that might well be provided by the existing analogue service, but if we reached a point where none of the services wishing to go on to the multiplex provided a local news service, the operator could restrict remaining space on the multiplex, so that it is available if someone comes forward.

[Andy Carter]

In effect, Ofcom needs to change the licences of existing multiplex operators, because in the licences issued, I do not see a clause to say that they have to deliver news if that is not provided locally on an analogue service.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

The powers relate to future shortages. I suspect that we could not backdate the provisions to kick someone with a contract off a multiplex. Perhaps it would be helpful if I later provided a bit more information to the Committee on precisely how that would work.

To go back to the definition of “local news” in the amendment of the hon. Member for Barnsley East, I understand that her purpose is to refine that definition and that of “locally gathered”, but I think that the amendment is unnecessary.

[Rob Butler]

The Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley South on the Front Bench will be relieved to hear that I do not intend to add to the woes of the Government Chief Whip by supporting an Opposition amendment, but I want to press the Minister a little on what “local” means, and how it is to be interpreted. I gave an example from my area. What was intrinsically an Aylesbury radio station has been superseded by one with three counties in its name: Bucks, Beds and Herts. Are the people of Aylesbury to assume that “local” means anything from any one of those three counties, rather than one from their town? I wonder whether some form of guidance—not necessarily statutory—might be helpful as we move quickly to develop new audio-visual services in radio and television.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I hope to provide my hon. Friend with further detail in my response to the amendment of the hon. Member for Barnsley East. I take my hon. Friend’s point, however; people expect to hear local news, relevant to the place where they live. In some cases, the definition of local news seems to be stretched somewhat. This is not a debate about the BBC, but I am sure that it might crop up in our discussion.

Local news and information are not defined in section 314 of the Communications Act 2003. They are mentioned as elements of local “material” that Ofcom is required to secure as part of the licensing of local commercial radio. Ofcom is also required to

“draw up guidance as to how they consider the requirements…should be satisfied; and…have regard to that guidance in carrying out their functions”.

Clause 44 amends section 314, and enables Ofcom to impose local news requirements in stations’ licences. It also enables Ofcom to ensure that this local news includes “locally-gathered” news. The hon. Lady suggested that she wanted further clarity on the definition of local news, but the provisions include a definition of local news for the first time. Under clause 44(7), to be regarded as “locally gathered-news”, news will need to be gathered

“by persons who gather news in the course of an employment of business”—

in other words, by professional journalists. We considered whether there was a case for being even more specific about how much news should be provided, or the times of day when local news should be available, but we felt that it would be most beneficial to the effective operation of the licensing system for Ofcom to continue to have responsibility for drawing up guidance on how stations should meet requirements.

Ofcom will draw up guidance that will replace the existing local news guidance. That will ensure continuity, while retaining a degree of flexibility in an approach that has been taken ever since 2003. It must have regard to the new definition of local news, and the requirement for at least some of that local news to be “locally-gathered”. We do not think it is either necessary or helpful for the Bill to require the Government to provide guidance to Ofcom on drawing up its guidance.

[Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab)]

On the point around Ofcom drawing up guidance, will Ofcom seek—and will the Government press it to—consultation with viewers, readers and listeners affected by these local changes, especially given that local newspapers are closing their doors across the country? It is so important that we have proper, accountable local news that is accessible to everybody.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I would love to spend time debating the importance of local newspapers with the hon. Lady; it is a point on which I completely agree. I also share her concern about the disappearance of local newspapers in so many places, but that matter of concern is slightly outside this Bill. Nevertheless, she is right that it means that the remaining sources of local news become all the more important.

As she suggests, I would expect Ofcom to consult widely in local communities before it decides precisely how the guidance should work. We differ from the Opposition, however, in not thinking that it would be helpful to have two sets of guidance, one emanating from the Bill and the other from Ofcom. I think that would simply add to the complication and confusion, and we need Ofcom to be able to apply the new provisions across a wide range of stations with flexibility. The provisions, which include a requirement for at least some local news to be gathered locally, give a degree of clarification. I hope that on that basis, that the hon. Member for Barnsley East will withdraw her amendment.

[Stephanie Peacock]

I appreciate the Minister’s comments. My amendment was based on concerns put forward by Ofcom and the CMS Committee. The issue of, and debate around, local news is important. Further to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North about consultation, although this debate is of course not about the BBC, we are all very familiar with its changes to local radio, which were made without any local consultation. Further to the point made by the hon. Member for Aylesbury, the listeners from Barnsley who used to tune into BBC Radio Sheffield are now listening to programming for the entirety of Yorkshire. Obviously, that is a parallel issue not connected to this, but having local people involved in these decisions is really important. I hope that Ofcom is genuinely satisfied with the Minister’s comments, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw my amendment accordingly.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 44 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 45

Financial assistance for radio

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

The clause amends section 359 of the Communications Act 2003 to give the Secretary of State the power to provide financial assistance for, or in connection with, the provision of community radio, commercial radio services and audio production. It is a technical amendment.

The covid-19 pandemic provided an illustration of circumstances in which the Government may need to make grants directly to radio stations, potentially on an urgent basis. In particular, during the pandemic the Government relied on the funding powers found in section 70 of the Charities Act 1993 and common law powers, in conjunction with section 86 of the Coronavirus Act 2020, to provide funding in relation to various radio services. However, relying on provisions such as section 70 of the Charities Act and common law powers is not always straightforward; it requires a considerable amount of legal and policy analysis to establish whether the relevant power is available for the need identified.

The purpose of the clause is therefore to make it explicit that radio stations and audio producers, whether their content is for on-demand or broadcast access, as well as those who facilitate the transmission of radio and audio content, can benefit from potential future grant schemes. I commend the clause to the Committee.

[Stephanie Peacock]

As I have spoken at length about my support for radio services, it will come as no surprise that I welcome the power for the Secretary of State to give financial assistance for the provision of such services. The measure is welcomed by AudioUK and Radiocentre, which ran a successful three-year pilot of the audio content fund. I understand that that came to an end, having previously been funded through the TV licence fee, but I hope that the measure will make it easier for the Department to support like-minded projects directly in future, where needed.

Does the Department have any plans to use the provisions? If so, how? The answer to that question is of interest not just to those who seek to benefit from this new opportunity, but to those benefiting from other funding pots. Indeed, the UK Community Radio Network has shared with me its concern that the commitment would be delivered off the back of funding currently allocated to the community radio fund. The UK Community Radio Network says that opening up the fund to more broadcasters could have negative consequences for the sector. Will the Minister clarify whether the aim of the clause is to expand the community radio fund?

Many colleagues spoke in support of local TV on Second Reading. Local TV forms a vital part of the wider television ecology and makes a great contribution to communities up and down the country. The Local TV Network has also been in touch with me to share that, although it is not seeking financial assistance, it would have liked a similar clause for local television to have enabled an increase in local programming or expansion of geographic coverage. Did the Department consider such a clause during the development of the Bill? It would be good to hear the Minister’s response, particularly given that the Bill does not give local TV the same prominence benefits as our public service broadcasters.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

The hon. Lady raises a number of issues. I remain a great supporter of the audio content fund, which was created when I was first in the Department and responsible for the renewal of the BBC charter. Of course, the audio content fund, along with the young audiences content fund, was funded for a time through licence fee money. It did a good job, but at the moment there is no plan to resurrect it. I remain a great supporter of community radio, and certainly there are no plans to raid the community radio fund for that purpose either. The clause creates a general power that will make it much simpler for us to provide grants directly to radio stations or for the transmission of radio, but I regret that at the moment there is no immediate prospect of doing so.

The hon. Lady touched on local television. I met local TV representatives yesterday. The Government will shortly announce the result of the consultation on the renewal of licences for local TV. I remain supportive of local TV. We continue to discuss issues around prominence with local TV representatives. Again, I am afraid that there is no current likelihood of our being able to provide financial assistance.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 45 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 46

Licensing of non-UK digital sound programme services

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

This clause makes changes to sections 245 and 402 of the Communications Act. It enables overseas digital radio services to be provided on a local or small-scale multiplex, where their country of origin has been specified in regulations. The Secretary of State intends to specify Ireland as a qualifying country, with the effect that RTÉ—the Irish national broadcaster—and other Irish commercial and community radio station operators can apply for digital licences for their radio services, and ultimately for those services to be broadcast in the UK. This simply removes an unnecessary restriction on Ofcom’s ability to license well regulated overseas stations, in contrast to similar TV services targeted at the UK. That was raised in the Government’s 2017 consultation on radio deregulation.

[Stephanie Peacock]

The clause allows the Secretary of State, by regulation, to specify a country in which international digital radio services can come under Ofcom’s regulation and be broadcast in the UK, as the Minister outlined. I understand, as he said, that this was done with the intention of specifying Ireland as a qualifying country first, so that Irish radio services can apply for digital licences for broadcast in the UK. When this issue was consulted on back in 2017, the majority of respondents were in favour of allowing this, particularly in the case of Ireland; the station RTÉ was identified as long having been important to members of the Irish community living in the UK.

While there must always be careful consideration of the spectrum available and the need to ensure a diversity of UK-based services, I see no reason why selected non-UK stations of particular importance to those living in the UK cannot complement UK services. Indeed, these non-UK services may be uniquely placed to attract new audiences to radio and subsequently advertisers and sponsors. It is due to those same concerns about prioritising UK services, however, that it seems the Government have opted to take a gradual approach to the change, allowing the Secretary of State to specify one country at a time, rather than opening things up more broadly. This gradual approach has perhaps been even more gradual than expected, given the five-year gap between consultation and the Bill.

Could the Minister share with us whether the Department has any intention of specifying countries other than Ireland under the clause? For example, does the Secretary of State intend to extend this arrangement to any other station’s licence, in the EU or beyond? I am pleased to support the clause, but I am keen to hear an update on whether there are plans to actually use it.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

The hon. Lady is right that, at the moment, the demand is primarily from Ireland. If there were to be significant demand from other countries, this would need to be reviewed in the context of views from industry and advice from Ofcom. The regulations would then be in the form of an affirmative order, which would need to be laid before the House, but there is no current intention of doing that.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 46 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 47

Radio multiplex licences

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

This clause updates provisions in the Broadcasting Act 1996 to remove Ofcom’s function of overseeing the line-ups of national and local radio multiplexes, in light of the Government’s 2017 consultation on commercial radio deregulation and the responses to it. As long as applicants for a multiplex licence can demonstrate that they are able to provide a sustainable service with sufficient geographic coverage, and that they will enable fair and effective competition, they will otherwise be free to decide the number and nature of the radio stations they carry. This change reflects the availability of a wide range of stations across the UK, and will allow for simpler arrangements between multiplex operators and Ofcom.

[Stephanie Peacock]

Clause 47 continues the deregulation of requirements on radio, this time simplifying radio multiplex licence applications. In effect, this means that Ofcom will no longer have to oversee the line-up of national and local radio multiplexes, other than by ensuring that there is regard for sustainability and competition. Again, when this was consulted on in 2017, most respondents agreed that there was no longer a need for Ofcom to oversee station line-ups on multiplexes and approve changes. As I have said multiple times, the need to oversee the content and diversity of radio services has decreased significantly since the introduction of a vast range of digital services. I believe this relaxation of requirements, therefore, should not have any negative effects on the range of services available for audiences in the UK, with their different tastes, needs and preferences.

As we come to the end of our consideration of the provisions on regulation of radio services, I reiterate my support for radio services, which provide so much to audiences. I am pleased that this package of long-awaited changes will finally be implemented, and I hope that the future of radio is protected for years to come. That hopefully leads us nicely to the next part of the Bill, which we will debate next week.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 47 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Mike Wood.)