Media Bill (Fourth sitting)

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 7th December 2023 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

I remind the Committee that with this we are considering the following:

Clauses 33 to 36 stand part.

Schedule 4.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Vickers. I will speak to clause 32, and the other clauses about S4C. I welcome the clauses, as do many people in Wales. They arise from the 2018 review carried out by Euryn Ogwen Williams, one of the great figures of television in Wales for many years. I expected an avalanche of complaints, possible amendments and new clauses from my compatriots; however, I am afraid that there is complete silence from them, so I will speak fairly briefly—perhaps to the relief of some members of the Committee. That silence is perhaps a measure of people’s qualified satisfaction with the channel, and is due to it being such a normal part of life. It has been normalised, and is no longer the matter of dispute that it was when I was a student, many years ago, campaigning in its favour. Having been a permanent Member of the Opposition in this place for the last 22 years, I am in the rather strange position of agreeing with the Government and supporting a Government Bill; it is a very peculiar feeling.

I come back to the S4C clauses—I may slip into calling it ès-pedwar-èc, which is what it is usually called in Wales. I was looking for an explanation from outside broadcast television. I know quite a bit about language planning, and there are two principles there that may help us to understand what is happening: the principles of normalisation and institutionalisation. Normalisation is just that—making something that was at one point new, novel and a subject of dispute unremarkable. As I said, I think that is what has happened to an extent with S4C.

The other principle is institutionalisation—that is, when someone switches the machine on in Wales, the output comes out bilingually, or in one language or the other. That process has happened through a great number of public institutions in Wales. Hon. Members may have seen lobbying or advertising material from public bodies and third-sector bodies in Wales that has .cymru at the end. Some time ago, when I chaired the language committee of the Central Council for Education and Training in Social Work, I had a leaflet through the post from the office in London, and it was bilingual. I phoned the staff up in Cardiff and asked, “Is this your work?” They said, “No, what is it?” I said, “It was nothing to do with me either.” When we checked, we found that the machine had just produced it in Welsh, because now the process was institutionalised.

That is one way of seeing what is happening to S4C; it is now being treated as any other public service broadcaster. That is as it should be—but, of course, S4C is a special case. I am not pleading any special rights for S4C, but it is the only Welsh language television broadcaster in the universe, I suppose, if I might possibly venture to say so. Hon. and right hon. Members can, if they choose, switch to Sky, Channel 4, ITV or perhaps even GB News—who knows?—but no such facility is available to Welsh speakers. S4C has a specific and very special place in cultural and democratic life in Wales. It is 40 years old. I am happy to say that it was established by a Conservative Government—by Mrs Thatcher’s Government—40 years ago. Eventually, she could not resist a deputation made up of a Labour party grandee, the Archbishop of Wales and a senior ex-civil servant, who told her that, unfortunately, she had to produce a Welsh language channel. Apparently, she said, “Do I have to?” They said, “I’m afraid you do, Prime Minister,” and she did.

Those were some points about S4C as a special case. I welcome the removal of the geographical restriction on S4C. There are S4C viewers outside Wales—perhaps quite a lot of them, as I said this morning; who knows? They can now much more easily access the channel’s digital and online services. Bringing S4C in line with other public service broadcasters is welcome. It must be put on a par with larger broadcasters, because it provides the same sort of service: it is a generic broadcaster that produces anything from game shows to gardening programmes, but in the medium of Welsh.

On Tuesday, I think, I spoke about the demography of the language, and why that was relevant. The conventional way of thinking about minority languages is that they are the language of the old people, and young people modernise and speak the other language. For instance, I have Polish friends whose grandparents spoke Polish when they escaped communism after the war. The grandchildren do not speak it at all, and the parents occupy some sort of intermediate space. Paradoxically, the Welsh-speaking population is getting younger; young people are learning the language. People of my generation, who were not taught Welsh in the ’60s, are still about—language change takes a very long time—and the proportion of older people who speak Welsh, about a fifth, is much lower than the proportion of younger people who speak Welsh, which is about a third.

That leads me to mention, with some pride, S4C’s provision for children, including mine. There is a dedicated service called “Cyw”, which means chicken, chick or young person. It produces all kinds of content for children in the medium of Welsh. It has its own YouTube channel. It has roadshows, books, badges, balloons and biros—the whole lot. It is extremely popular. Allowing S4C wider prominence will allow even more children to absorb the language in an easily accessible way—by seeing it on telly, absorbing it as they do English. I see that with my children, who were monoglot Welsh speakers until they were about five or six, and are now thoroughly bilingual.

In the ’60s, living in west Wales, I had the pleasure and advantage of accessing Raidió Teilifís Éireann; we could watch Irish television as well as the BBC. There was no ITV available at the time. On RTÉ, we could see American shows much sooner than they appeared on the BBC; the Irish had a certain advantage. That is an early example of something that came up this morning: the value of choice. People these days can choose what they like; we could choose BBC Wales or RTÉ. I sometimes think that watching RTÉ as a child accounts for my accent. Who knows?

Moving quickly on, clause 33, which concerns the board, puts in place the recommendations of the 2018 review. A shadow board has been operating for some time, and I think it seems to be trouble-free. Clause 34 is on accounts and audit. The Comptroller and Auditor General is already the BBC’s external auditor, and there are no issues with that also being the case for S4C; it perhaps normalises its position as a PSB like any other.

Finally, the possibly more worrying—or possibly not—clause 35 changes the previously fixed approach in which the BBC was required to provide at least 10 hours of programmes in Welsh per week to S4C. It allows for alternative arrangements. The contribution of the BBC is highly valued and of a high standard. It produces the news and various other things, including what I think is the longest running soap opera in the universe. “Pobol y Cwm” has been going for a very long time and has a devoted audience, not only in Wales but slightly beyond the border.

The worry is that replacing statutory provision with an agreement that requires a high degree of trust might not work. That was tested in the past, when the licence fee was cut substantially and the funding for S4C was cut substantially. The BBC’s provision, which was set in law, was very much valued. One wonders what will happen if the BBC has further cuts—who knows? Without the 10-hour arrangement, will those cuts be knocked on to S4C?

However, one of the outstanding successful features of S4C is that it obtains programming from more than 50 independent companies, many of which are located in my constituency. People are occasionally slightly surprised when they ask me where I represent and I say, “I represent Arfon, and the main industries in Arfon are agriculture, tourism, the production of blood-testing machines and television programmes.” That is considered slightly peculiar for what is seen by some people as the back of beyond—that depends on where you start from, of course; it could also be said about London. S4C obtains much of its programming from those companies, and that is highly valued.

All I am really asking for is any observations that the Minister might have about the danger for S4C of cuts to the BBC’s provision. Otherwise, I am very glad to support these clauses.

[The Minister for Media, Tourism and Creative Industries (Sir John Whittingdale)]

I am grateful to Opposition Members for their general support for these clauses. The hon. Member for Arfon has taken us through the history of S4C, and he is right to say that it now has widespread acceptance and has become part of the institutional landscape. There is only one part of what he said that I would question: having worked as political secretary to Margaret Thatcher for five years before I entered this place, I can assure him that she would not have done anything unless she wanted to do it.

The hon. Gentleman raised a point about the BBC’s funding of S4C. The Government determine the funding for S4C. It merely comes from the licence fee pot. The BBC is being given knowledge of its funding for the coming year in today’s statement by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. That does not affect the funding of S4C, which has already been determined. The hon. Gentleman also spoke about the flexibility that we are giving S4C and the BBC to determine, potentially, alternative arrangements for the BBC’s support for S4C. That was a request from S4C, which saw it as a benefit that it might receive other forms of support from the BBC, but of course it will have to be by agreement, so the BBC will not be able to change that unless S4C and the BBC reach an agreement together.

The hon. Member for Barnsley East asked for further details about the Secretary of State’s power to approve commercial activities of S4C. We feel that allowing that to be done in writing, rather than by order, provides greater flexibility. The timescale for taking advantage of commercial opportunities, together with the confidential nature of the activities sometimes involved, makes it difficult to do that by order. The Secretary of State will be required to publish any approvals, exempting only confidential matters, and the Secretary of State of course remains accountable to Parliament. I do not think that there is any cause for concern in either case.

The clause is essentially based on the recommendations of the review of S4C, which the hon. Member for Arfon pointed out was widely welcomed across Wales.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 32 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 33 to 36 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 4 agreed to.

Clause 37

Tier 1 services

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephanie Peacock]

Preserving television and visual content is a way of preserving our history. There are already some amazing examples of how television is collected and archived. The British Film Institute, for example, looks after one of the largest and most important collections of film and television in the world, where teams of experts ensure that the collective programmes are accessible for generations to come. In particular, the BFI’s priceless television archive, which includes programming from the 1950s, can help us to tell with fascinating clarity the story of British television and Britain at large over the last 70 years. Since 2016, the BFI has automatically recorded various channels, all day, on an on-air and off-air basis, meaning that the recording is complete with adverts, trailers and announcements. That archive will only become more precious as the years pass.

The BFI archive is complemented by the BBC Archive, which contains over 1.5 million items recorded on everything from film to videotape to digital files. Despite the range of the BBC Archive, there are still programmes missing from that collection, particularly from earlier years of broadcasting. The BBC cites a few reasons for that, including limited means of recording, the expense of recording and tapes of which there was only one copy simply being lost. It also says that limited records were also the result of the fact that there was no requirement to build an archive. It was not until 1979 that the advisory committee on archives recommended that a requirement to keep archives be included in the charter, at which point programmes began more routinely to be kept for good.

It might be easy to assume that archiving in the digital age might be a given, given the capacity of the internet to host vast amounts of information that is then available at our request. However, even digital files and the cloud ultimately rely on physical infrastructure, and the nature of the internet means that there is more content than ever that requires such storage. I therefore support amendment 38, which seeks to set guidance on the archiving and retrieval of on-demand programming. That is not only because we cannot take it for granted that such programming will be properly archived, but because it matters how and where those archives are stored and whether something ends up being in the public interest.

I hope that, in the years to come, we can preserve broadcasting as an insight into our society and culture. To achieve that, we will need input from and collaboration between on-demand programming services and those institutions that can help with archiving, such as the national libraries and the BFI. I believe that amendment 38 recognises that and looks to set us up for a future that values the past.

On new clause 9, although I am interested to hear more about the idea of a nominated body being responsible for a centralised national archive, I am not sure about the detail of how it would work. I feel that I should ask, on behalf of the on-demand services implicated here, what the forecasted cost implications are and on what basis a contributory system has been identified as the most effective and efficient way for services to be part of the effort of archiving. I wonder whether, perhaps, the way forward should not be assumed, as it is in the clause, but rather should hinge on any guidance that is issued as a result of amendment 38, particularly with reference to using those archives and resources that are already working well.

I emphasise that I am keen to support the archiving of our television services, but I want to ensure that the way that is done is carefully considered and properly consulted on.

[Hywel Williams]

I rise briefly to support the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North, as well as the new clause, and to reassure her and the Committee. In her amendment, she refers to Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru: the National Library of Wales. It maintains the Archif Film Theledu Cymru—the Welsh Film and Television Archive—which is a highly successful development in Aberystwyth.

I also note that these archives have monetary value. In passing, ITV in Wales, for example, has a regular programme with clips from the ’60s, illustrating Welsh life. It fills half an hour—more than fills it. It is not just to fill space. It is very interesting, particularly to people who see culture in its broadest sense: not high culture, but the entire scope of human activity in Wales. It is available in the National Library of Wales, but is also available to broadcasters.