Pakistan: Freedom of Religion

John McDonnell Excerpts

Thursday 28th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Ind)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) on securing the debate and thank the Backbench Business Committee, through which he secured it. I also congratulate him on this upgrade from Westminster Hall to the main Chamber—some argue that Westminster Hall should be renamed the “Shannon debating forum.”

I will take up the hon. Gentleman’s point, as I am sure others will, about the Ahmadiyya community. Like other Members in the Chamber, I have an Ahmadiyya community in my constituency. They operate under the slogan of “Love for all, hatred for none.” We saw that campaign on our London buses at one point a few years ago. They relate to me exactly what the hon. Gentleman described: distressing tales of what is happening to their community in Pakistan. As he says, just describing oneself as a member of the Ahmadiyya community is an offence under the penal law in Pakistan. Doing so can result in a three-year term of imprisonment, a fine, or even death. In addition, if people call their place of worship a mosque, or their call to prayer—the adhan—goes out, they can be prosecuted under that penal code, which is appalling.

The briefing that the all-party parliamentary group received recently highlighted that the situation has got significantly worse this year. In the briefing, we were told that at least four people had been murdered because of their religion. We also had a list with a number of people who had been arrested and imprisoned for their religion. In prison, their situation is extremely precarious; there are also worries about torture. Publications are banned, and to be able to vote, Ahmadis are placed on a separate list—in fact, many of them are disenfranchised as a result.

In the past, when we have raised those matters in debates, in this Chamber and in Westminster Hall, Governments of all political complexions have made representations. At times there has been some alleviation because the world has focused its attention on Pakistan’s behaviour, but the reports that we get show that recently things have been getting dramatically worse. That is why we need some action from our Government.

I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the need to work through international agencies to shine a light on what is happening and make representations. It is key now that we mobilise pressure as much as we can to influence the Pakistani Government to scrap the blasphemy laws being used so ferociously against the Ahmadiyya community and others.

Let me say something that might prove contentious for some. I think we now need to think about going beyond that. There are individuals in Pakistan, within the Administration and the security forces, who we can now identify as leading on some of these human rights abuses, and I wonder whether we should treat them as human rights abusers, as we would others from other countries. That would mean naming and shaming, of course, but also instigating some form of sanctions against them. Most of those individuals have a relationship with this country in one form or another. In fact, many of them will be using their resources via investment vehicles in this country. I feel that we need to take a stronger view and stronger action than we have in the past, because the situation has deteriorated.

Another issue, which we have raised before, is that although we provide a fair amount of aid and assistance to Pakistan—that is fine; I completely understand that—it is important that that aid is not abused. For example, the Pakistani Government nationalised Ahmadiyya schools and have never returned them to the community. We fund education in Pakistan, so we need to be conditional about how that investment in education is made.

A second point that might be provocative is that we must consider the funding of the organisations campaigning for human rights in Pakistan and internationally, so that we can strengthen their arm in advocating on behalf of the Ahmadiyya community. That is my position on the Ahmadiyya community.

I will slightly abuse the scope of the debate if I may, Madam Deputy Speaker. Human rights abuses in Pakistan have worsened in this recent period, not just for Ahmadiyyas but for others. At the moment, severe repression is taking place in Balochistan. There is a history in the last year, and in the recent months in particular, of repression among the Baloch. The Pakistani authorities have introduced a strategy of disappearances. Large numbers of people have simply disappeared. A crudity about that is that it involves “find and dump”—the only way in which people who disappear are found is when their bodies are dumped on the streets in that region.

The forms of repression taking place in Balochistan are producing a resistance movement. Unfortunately, some of that is armed resistance, and we have seen what are being classified as terrorist actions, so there is a deterioration. However, there is also a peace movement, which is largely led by women. They have been instigating marches over the past 12 months. Unfortunately, they are now being arrested and the peace and human rights movement in Balochistan is being savagely repressed. If we are taking up these issues of religious freedom, we should extend consideration to the whole range of human rights abuses taking place in Pakistan. I would not want to see a destabilisation of the country as a result of a reactionary Government taking these measures. From my understanding, people are on the edge—they have had enough—and unfortunately the response from the Pakistani Government does not suggest that they will reconsider their strategy of repressive measures.

Oral Answers to Questions

John McDonnell Excerpts

Tuesday 26th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lammy]

I reassure the right hon. Gentleman that the situation of Ryan Cornelius has been raised with the UAE, and officials continue to provide consular access to Mr Cornelius and Mr Ridley and are in contact with their families at this time. It is a serious case; we are absolutely aware of it, and the UAE knows that we are very concerned.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Ind)]

I completely understand and appreciate what the Foreign Secretary has said about maintaining a relationship with Egypt because of the issue in Gaza, but the reality is that Mr el-Fattah’s family has suffered enough, and President Sisi will move only if there is an economic threat. Therefore, after the Foreign Secretary meets the family tomorrow, can I ask him to contact the President’s office to make absolutely clear that our economic relationship will suffer unless this British citizen is released?

[Mr Lammy]

The right hon. Gentleman should be reassured that I spoke to the Egyptian Foreign Minister yesterday and said to him that I was meeting Mrs el-Fattah today. I urged him to look at what parliamentarians are saying about this case, which is of huge concern, and pressed him to do more. We have continued to do that with the Egyptians. It is obviously sensitive because of the situation in Gaza, but I do not think the Egyptians are in any doubt about how seriously this case is taken by the British system, the Government and this Parliament.

Israel-Gaza Conflict: Arrest Warrants

John McDonnell Excerpts

Monday 25th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Hamish Falconer]

I will not rehearse our position on the recognition of the state of Palestine, other than to say that we believe that the Palestinians have an inalienable right to a state alongside a safe and secure Israel. The Government hope to take steps to advance that as part of a contribution to a two-state solution.

The hon. Member suggests, I think, no contact at all with the Israeli Government as a consequence of the ICC ruling. It is only diplomacy that will bring an end to this conflict. We will continue to have direct contact, and in that direct contact we will continue to do all we can to secure an immediate ceasefire, the release of all hostages, aid into Gaza and a more safe, secure and stable middle east.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Ind)]

I say this to my hon. Friend as constructively as I possibly can: a number of us have sat here for months and have asked questions about sanctions, but the response from Ministers has been to say, “We cannot comment on sanctions in the House.” Not only does that render sanctions ineffective, but it breaks down the accountability of Ministers to this House. We deserve a better statement than that.

On the legal process, my hon. Friend has rightly said that we will respect international law and comply with the International Criminal Court’s jurisdiction and decisions. If I have got the wording right, he said that it will be for the domestic legal processes involved. Where does physical arrest come within that domestic legal process?

[Hamish Falconer]

Let me deal with why we do not provide advance comment on sanctions, and then I will turn to the domestic legal process.

I hear my right hon. Friend. The reason that we do not provide commentary on sanctions is that to do so in advance would reduce their effect. The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office—my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty), who is sitting next to me—may correct me, but I think that we have probably issued upwards of 50 or maybe even 100 sanctions in the short time we have been in government. There has been no shortage of sanctions for this House to comment on. I recognise that the two on which I have most been pressed this afternoon are of intense political interest; however, despite that intense political interest, if we were to prejudge sanctions and trail them in this House before we made them, we would reduce their impact. The same is true of the hundreds of sanctions that we have placed on Russia over the years, and it would be the same in every forum.

In relation to the domestic legal process, I hope that my right hon. Friend will forgive me for not entering too deeply into hypotheticals about how a court might discharge its findings on these matters.

Gaza and Humanitarian Aid

John McDonnell Excerpts

Thursday 10th October 2024 Westminster Hall

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Ind)]

I want to raise again the issue of the evacuation of seriously injured children from Gaza. When the Ukraine war started, we very rapidly put in place a mechanism for the evacuation of injured children from Ukraine to hospitals here, to ensure that they had the appropriate treatment. It was a system that seemed to have worked effectively. Soon after the attack on Gaza, my friend Kate Hollern, who was the hon. Member for Blackburn, raised in this House the issue of trying to instigate a similar scheme for Palestinian children. I think she did that around November or December, but we heard nothing back. I raised the issue again on the Floor of the House with the then deputy Foreign Secretary—the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell)—and we were given an assurance. I had met with the voluntary organisation Save Gaza’s Children, which is based in France, and there is also Save A Child, which was doing work at that point to evacuate children to Italy and to other countries surrounding Palestine.

I raised the issue again in May because we had no response. Then the general election happened so I wrote to the Prime Minister, because I felt this needed a prime ministerial push to get it through. I raised it with the Foreign Secretary because we needed to ensure that our diplomatic efforts were involved, and I wrote to the Home Secretary as well because we needed the visa arrangements put in place. I never received a response.

I wrote again in August to the Minister for Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds), and I did receive a response. However, it was not about the evacuation but the assistance being provided to organisations hopefully working as best they could within Gaza. So I wrote again, and I have not received a second response. I am not sure what is happening in Government on this. I understand that a new Government have come in and it is difficult settling down and sorting out arrangements, but this is a matter of urgency.

We have had further reports this morning of another hospital being attacked, and we have also heard reports of the doctors being threatened that if they did not evacuate they would be arrested. We have even had ambulance workers arrested this morning as well. They are being forced to choose between evacuating children from intensive care, which is risky, or leaving them behind, and as a result some doctors are risking their lives.

We could do exactly as we have done with Ukraine, by simply establishing a system to ensure that those seriously injured children are evacuated. Clinicians are willing to assist here; in fact, I have had clinicians contact me to say, “What can we do?” and “How can we assist?” I ask the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Hamish Falconer), to take this and come back as a matter of urgency. Children are dying as a result and we cannot stand to one side.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hamish Falconer]

My colleague will understand that there is a difference between what we can say in public and what we can say in private. However, I reassure him that those points are being made to partners with force, with emphasis and with consistency. As he will have seen through a number of forums over the last few weeks, the UK has made its position absolutely clear. It is, of course, a frustration to me that at this stage, and since we came into power in July, we are still having some of those discussions, so I recognise the frustration in his voice.

On my first day as a Minister, we lifted the funding pause on UNRWA. We provided £21 million to support its humanitarian appeal in Gaza. No other agency can deliver aid to Gaza on the scale that is needed. We must support UNRWA to do its job effectively. Of course, in delivering, we expect it to meet the highest standards of neutrality, as laid out in Catherine Colonna’s independent review, and the Minister for Development has met her to discuss such matters. Of our funding to UNRWA this year, £1 million has gone to support the implementation of its agreed action plan. However, I take note of the reference to some of the discussions in the Israeli Knesset. I want to emphasise the importance that the UK places on UNRWA, on its continued function and its unique role in the area, as well as our full support for the UN Secretary-General.

[John McDonnell]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister’s flow, but before he sits down, can he give me some assurance that he will take back to his colleagues the issue about the evacuation of children? I raised it again on Monday with the Prime Minister and still got no response.

[Hamish Falconer]

I was coming to that issue, but I will take it now.

I am very familiar with these issues; in fact, as an official in 2014, I was working with the mass atrocity prevention hub, where I know my colleagues have also served, to try to identify children at that time and in that stage of the war. It is incredibly depressing to be in this Chamber 10 years on talking about injured children in Gaza again. At that time, I was tasked with trying to find children who could benefit from UK medical assistance, and I was honestly not able to find children who would not be better served in the region. Having discussed the matter with officials—I understand the Minister for Development has looked at this as well—we primarily share the view expressed in WHO guidance that children should be treated in the region as much as possible. That will mean in most cases that being treated in Egypt or somewhere nearby is going to be more appropriate than being treated in the UK. However, I will go back to the Department and secure a fuller answer.

I want to return briefly to the mandate of the UN. We are clear that Israel must respect the mandate of the UN and must enable humanitarian workers to travel easily into and throughout Gaza.

Conflict in Sudan: El Fasher

John McDonnell Excerpts

Thursday 16th May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Anne-Marie Trevelyan]

We will absolutely be raising the challenge of having those communication lines open. There are real concerns, and I will happily take this up with the Deputy Foreign Secretary when he gets back.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

Those of us who have constituents of Sudanese origin can relate to the Minister the distress and concern in that community. There is particular concern about the fact that—I think this is now the estimate—anything between 500,000 and 1 million refugees are going from Darfur into Chad. Could the Minister explain what support we are providing for those who are in Chad, because at the moment it looks as though the agencies that are there are unable to cope?

[Anne-Marie Trevelyan]

The right hon. Gentleman raises a very important point. I can update him that the Deputy Foreign Secretary has recently been to the Chad-Sudan border to see for himself exactly the flow that the right hon. Gentleman identifies. He saw the “sheer horror” and “misery”—his words, not mine—that these appalling acts have created, and he is very focused on ensuring that we use our humanitarian aid to think about how we can provide support across every part of this terrible situation.

War in Gaza

John McDonnell Excerpts

Tuesday 7th May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mitchell]

I am very pleased to hear that my right hon. Friend had the chance to meet those survivors yesterday, so that she can share with the House the hideous circumstances that they suffered. She makes it clear that Israel has the right of self-defence, and she set out eloquently why that is the case. But Israel must also abide by international humanitarian law.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

I say to the Minister, if I may, “You’re better than this.” We all condemn Hamas’s attack and we all want to see the hostages released, but we are on the edge of witnessing a massacre, a mass murder of innocent men, women and children at the behest of fanatical zealots in the Israeli Cabinet. We need this Government to lead an international exercise to prevent this attack now. One way to prevent it is to make it clear to Netanyahu that if it goes ahead, this Government will pursue him as a war criminal at the international courts.

[Mr Mitchell]

The right hon. Gentleman knows very well that the Government are working with their allies, with the powers in the region and through the United Nations precisely to ensure that that does not happen. He also knows that the Foreign Secretary, the Prime Minister and other Ministers who are in close contact with the Israeli Government have made it absolutely clear what the effects of a military campaign conducted within the small confines of Rafah, where so many people are kettled, would be. I have made very clear from this Dispatch Box the view of the Government in that respect.

Humanitarian Situation in Gaza

John McDonnell Excerpts

Wednesday 17th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[David Rutley]

Too many civilians have been killed, and we want Israel to take greater care to limit its operations to military targets and avoid harming civilians and destroying homes. That is the message we give when we engage with the Israeli Government.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

The situation in Gaza is having its impact on the west bank. Tragically, this week a 14-year-old Israeli child was found dead, and that set off a process of settlers rampaging across the west bank. We now know that four Palestinians have been killed and others brutally attacked, and the evidence is that IDF soldiers stood to one side and allowed that to happen. At a meeting with Israeli colleagues this morning we heard that the Israeli Government are now arresting legal and peace observers in the west bank. Will the Government make it clear to the Israeli Government that observers should be allowed to operate within the west bank and ensure that peace is maintained? May we have a detailed report on the sanctions that the Government are applying to Israeli settlements and settlers?

[David Rutley]

I do not know the detail of some of the earlier points the right hon. Gentleman raised, but I will welcome receiving that. My understanding and memory is that we put sanctions on two individuals. We keep this issue under constant review, because those actions and what happens in the settlements is important, given the implications that has for the west bank.

Israel and Gaza

John McDonnell Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mitchell]

The hon. Gentleman is right to identify the delivery of aid from the air, for numerous reasons that hon. Members will understand, as suboptimal. The key way of getting urgently needed aid into Gaza is by truck and by road, but needs must, which is why the RAF was able to deliver some 40 tonnes yesterday. If the position continues as it is, Britain expects to get aid into Gaza by sea and air as well as by land.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

The Minister said there was precedent on the non-publication of legal advice. There was a precedent set—you and I were here, Mr Deputy Speaker—in the debate on the Iraq war, when the legal advice was fully published. That was to provide protection for the Government and Members of the House in their deliberations, as well as to provide advice. Does he not appreciate that we now have the Security Council resolution and the ICJ decision, which mean that any actions by a Netanyahu Government against those decisions and that judgment will actually be portrayed as war crimes? Any Government that supply arms to that regime therefore can be equally accused of war crimes, and any Member of the House supporting the Government in those actions is open to that charge as well. Does he not appreciate what Members are saying to him about the rule of law and the importance of the House abiding by the rule of law?

[Mr Mitchell]

The Government are second to none in seeking to uphold the rule of law, and that point has been consistently reiterated from this Dispatch Box. The right hon. Gentleman raises once again the issue of the Government publishing legal advice and cites in aid the advice published by the then Labour Government in respect of the Iraq war. I do not think that is a wise avenue to go down.

Israel and Gaza

John McDonnell Excerpts

Tuesday 19th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mitchell]

As I have repeatedly said to the House, the issue of arms sales is dealt with in a legal and coded way. The Government have no intention of varying from that process. It has been shown, as I have said before, that we have the toughest regulatory regime in the world and we continually keep it under review. None the less, it is important that these things are done properly and in accordance with the rules laid down by Parliament and laid down by the law, and we will not vary that.

In respect of the early part of the hon. Member’s question, I agree that it is essential that we are able to get more supplies into Gaza. We spend all our time arguing for new ways of entry and for new opportunities to get aid in, but, as I set out in our five key aims, we want the resumption of electricity, water and telecommunication services as well as infrastructure repair to start as soon as possible.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

Across the House, we are all desperate to see the release of the hostages, but the negotiations for their release are not aided by the treatment of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails and detention centres. The Israeli newspaper, Haaretz, has reported that 27 Palestinian detainees have died in Israeli custody since the war and some during direct questioning. It has reported beatings, abuse, torture, sexual assault, and prisoners being prevented access to doctors, lawyers and medication. A magistrate in Jerusalem has reported that the prisoners are detained in cages not fit for human beings. Now we have had the family of Marwan Barghouti, the Palestinian leader who many hope will secure peace, say that he has been beaten with clubs by guards. Will the Minister demand that the Israeli Government provide access to the detention centres and prisons for humanitarian bodies to investigate these abuses and bring forward a report, which, hopefully, will end the abuse and assist in the negotiations for the release of the hostages?

[Mr Mitchell]

The right hon. Gentleman has put his finger specifically on the treatment of detainees. As he will be aware, the treatment of detainees is governed by international humanitarian law and the Geneva convention. He will have seen what the Foreign Secretary has said about the treatment of detainees, and Britain has consistently called for an inquiry, and for transparency in that inquiry, into any alleged abuses.

Points of Order

John McDonnell Excerpts

Tuesday 19th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. Lady for her point of order. She has successfully shone a light on what has happened in this instance. I see that there is a Defence Minister on the Treasury Bench, so I am sure that her comments will be fed back and hope that the meeting to which she refers can take place accordingly. I think she has achieved her objective of highlighting the problem.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I sat through today’s urgent question and listened to the various questions raised on the supply of arms to Israel. It is clear that the Government are continuing to supply arms to Israel, some of which will have been used in the attacks on Gaza. Some of those attacks have been judged to be contrary to the International Court of Justice judgment and are potentially war crimes. Can I ask Mr Speaker to seek and publish legal advice on the legal responsibilities of individuals of this House in holding the Government to account to prevent complicity in those war crimes, so that we are all aware of our responsibilities and the role we have to play, as this Government receive their authority from this Chamber?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his point of order. He did not give me notice of it, so I have been unable to seek advice on the legal point he raises. I am unclear on whether he is asking Mr Speaker to publish legal advice.

[John McDonnell]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I apologise; I could not give notice of my point of order because it arises from the urgent question, which has only just concluded. I am asking Mr Speaker to seek legal advice on our behalf and to publish it, because it is important that we all know our legal responsibilities in respect of the potential complicity of this Government in war crimes.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

My initial response is that the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), has come here and answered a number of questions on the issue that the right hon. Gentleman raises. The Minister is indicating that he may be able to help me out a little on legal advice. It feels highly unusual for Mr Speaker to seek legal advice on an issue affecting the Government, because the Government obviously get their own legal advice. Perhaps we could hear from the Minister before going any further.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Mr Andrew Mitchell)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), who is an extremely experienced Member of the House, is seeking—ingeniously—to continue debate on the subject of the urgent question. He knows perfectly well that the Government operate under the rule of law. When it comes to arms sales, the arms regime and the work of the arms inspection committee, all those matters are determined by the law of the land. When it comes to international humanitarian law, the position is precisely the same: the Government take advice from the Law Officers, who are charged with advising us on these matters, and the Government act on that advice.

[John McDonnell]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

That is the point that I was trying to make, but obviously the Minister, who I am sure often works with legal advisers, was able to make it much more coherently. I am not sure that we can pursue this much further. I will let the right hon. Gentleman have one more go, but I think that we will have reached the end of the questioning after this.

[John McDonnell]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am not seeking to extend the debate at all; this is an incredibly serious point. The Minister just said that the Government are operating under the rule of law, but some of us believe that is not true any more, because of how the ICJ judgment was phrased. So we need advice as individual Members, separate from the Government—and it is the Speaker’s responsibility to ensure that we are properly advised—about our responsibilities when we believe there is potential complicity in war crime. All I seek is that advice should be sought and published.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

As I said, the Government perform within the legal advice that they receive, not least from the Attorney General. Separate legal proceedings are going through the ICJ, and I do not think it is for Members of the House to interfere in that process either. The right hon. Gentleman will know that individual Members of the House have the right to seek legal advice. His comments will have been heard, and if there is anything further to be added to them, I know that the Clerks will advise us whether we should return to the matter, but I think his request for specific legal advice to the Speaker would be highly unusual. If I need to add anything to that, I assure him that I will come back to him.

Bill Presented

Football Governance Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Secretary Lucy Frazer, supported by the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary James Cleverly, Secretary David T. C. Davies, John Glen and Stuart Andrew, presented a Bill to establish the Independent Football Regulator; to make provision for the licensing of football clubs; to make provision about the distribution of revenue received by organisers of football competitions; and for connected purposes.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 187) with explanatory notes (Bill 187-EN).