Draft Postal Packets (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2023

Jacob Rees-Mogg Excerpts

Monday 17th July 2023 General Committees

[Sir James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Pritchard. I was nominated to this Committee and I was prepared to be part of it. I was asked to absent myself from the Committee, and I refused because I had points and queries to make. When I suggested that I might vote against the legislation, I was subsequently removed from the Committee. That is an outrage to the House. I believe that this legislation does require scrutiny. I will listen to the debate but I do not think that 90 minutes will be sufficient time to hear all the contributions, let alone conclude all the issues.

More importantly, if it is the feeling of the Committee, Mr Pritchard, can you go back to Mr Speaker and review the process? Never in my 18 years of Parliament have I known of a single Member who has been removed from a Committee list without asking to be removed. In this case, it happened four or five times. I suspect that there is an element of incompetence rather than an attack on Members’ rights to debate, but this needs to be looked into. I seek your guidance on whether, if we do not finish the debate here, more time can be allocated on the Floor to discuss the principle and the content of this legislation. I am sure it is something that the Chief Whip would want to know more about, alongside fishing interests.

[Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Pritchard. As the papers for this meeting are not ready and not sufficiently supplied for all the Members who are attending, I suggest that the meeting be adjourned until they can be provided.

[The Chair]

Are there any other points of order?

[Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg]

Further to that point of order, Mr Pritchard. I think that point of order is fundamental because without the papers, how can people consider this legislation properly? All that was available when I came in was the explanatory memorandum. The list of members is not available, which seems to be a deeply unsatisfactory state of affairs when the names of the members have changed so rapidly during the course of the day. When we are playing the hokey-cokey with members of the Committee, the House at least ought to be informed of who those members are. I suggest a brief adjournment while the papers are provided, and then we should come to the other points of order.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Pritchard. I have two quick points.

First, I understand that the knife on the Illegal Migration Bill will fall at 6.26 pm. If you were a cynic, you would believe that the Government deliberately timed this debate for this evening, knowing that it would be ripped up by all those votes, bearing in mind we had 18 votes on the Bill last week. If you are a cynic, it is perfectly obvious to see what the Government have done; they have timed the debate now so it will be interrupted by the votes. However, can you confirm, Mr Pritchard, that if these proceedings are interrupted, there will be injury time so the debate will begin again quite a long while later, after the votes have taken place?

Secondly, for the record, the Committee of Selection nominated Members to this SI Committee last week in the normal way, including my hon. Friends the Members for Windsor, for Rochford and Southend East, for Devizes, for Dudley North and for Don Valley. I understand that some or all of those people indicated to the Whips in conversations over the weekend that they had what theologians might call “doubts” about the Government’s approach. Some even threatened to vote against the legislation, whereupon they were summarily removed from the Committee by the Whips, using a procedure that is normally used only for last-minute substitutions and very special circumstances—for instance, if a family member is ill.

In 22 years in this House, I have never known the Whips, from either side, to do this. This is beyond sixth-form politics. This is manipulating the parliamentary process because the Windsor framework is clearly a failure, and it is such a failure that the Whips have to rig Committees to get it through, so they have found a bunch of other Members, at short notice, who perhaps, shall we say, are not quite as inquisitive as the five who were nobbled. You have been here a long while, Mr Pritchard; have you, in your time in this House, ever known anything quite as shameful as this?

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg]

Further to that point of order, Mr Pritchard, it seems to me that these issues raise serious matters of privilege, which obviously have to be referred to Mr Speaker confidentially and are not a matter for this Committee to consider. However, if Members are obstructed from carrying out their duties as Members, that is a molestation of a Member.

A Member has been appointed to the Committee and summarily removed from it, without the Chairman of the Selection Committee being informed, or indeed the Member concerned being informed. That seems to me to raise, prima facie, matters of privilege, which should referred to Mr Speaker. Therefore, I would again suggest that this Committee be adjourned. We still do not have the papers, so I think that there are now two good reasons for adjourning this Committee.

[The Chair]

Well, thank you. I would just say that I think, with the Government Whip here, that the strong feelings of some Members of this Committee have been noted by the Government Whips.

On the point on the membership and the paperwork being available, that paperwork is en route. In fairness to the Committee staff, I suspect that they did not anticipate the level of turnout that we have this evening. We could suspend the sitting, but I think that it might be more helpful if we perhaps encouraged the concept of sharing Committee papers, and I am happy to lead by example—exemplo ducemus, as the former Leader of the House might know—and I am very happy for him to have my Committee membership paperwork. I will take that decision; the paperwork is on its way; it will be here shortly, and if the right hon. Gentleman really does need to see the latest list, I am happy to provide it to him personally, or he can share with other Committee Members. I am sure that other comments will be made in a moment, but—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Francois]

If that is your ruling—

[Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg]

The Chair does not have the authority to order my right hon. Friend to withdraw in Committee. The Speaker has that authority on the Floor of the House; the Chairman of a Committee does not have that authority. He may ask, but he cannot insist.

[Mr Francois]

For the avoidance of doubt, I will withdraw it anyway. You and I have known each other for many years, Mr Pritchard; if you think that word was disorderly, out of respect for you and mindful of the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset, I will withdraw it. I will replace “bent” with “rigged”.

[The Chair]

It is not a matter of my opinion of what is orderly or disorderly; it is a matter of what the House thinks. I have heard a lot worse over those many years.

[Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg]

On a point of order, Mr Pritchard. As you know perfectly well, the rules in Committee are very different from the rules of the House. If you as Chairman are not happy with the order, you may suspend the Committee, but my right hon. Friend does not have any obligation to withdraw. You may make a report to Mr Speaker, but the only power you have is to suspend the Committee. That is very important because there is a fundamental difference between Committee and the Floor of the House.

[The Chair]

I am grateful for that point of order, which comes from possibly the master of civility himself. He will recognise that my right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford has put the record straight, even if he did not have to in the opinion of my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset, and I am grateful for his doing so.