Draft Postal Packets (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2023

James Duddridge Excerpts

Monday 17th July 2023 General Committees

[The Chair]

Before we start proceedings, I will give some preamble. It may be helpful for all Members to know that, as clearly explained by Mr Speaker in the House earlier today, Members who have not been nominated to a Delegated Legislation Committee are able to attend and speak.

I understand that some Members may want to make points of order. For the orderliness of the proceedings, it may be helpful to have those points of order now, not precluding later points of order perhaps on other issues or even the same ones. There are many experienced Members in this Committee today, and for the orderliness of getting through business, I will take points of order now if Members so wish, before I call the Minister.

[Sir James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Pritchard. I was nominated to this Committee and I was prepared to be part of it. I was asked to absent myself from the Committee, and I refused because I had points and queries to make. When I suggested that I might vote against the legislation, I was subsequently removed from the Committee. That is an outrage to the House. I believe that this legislation does require scrutiny. I will listen to the debate but I do not think that 90 minutes will be sufficient time to hear all the contributions, let alone conclude all the issues.

More importantly, if it is the feeling of the Committee, Mr Pritchard, can you go back to Mr Speaker and review the process? Never in my 18 years of Parliament have I known of a single Member who has been removed from a Committee list without asking to be removed. In this case, it happened four or five times. I suspect that there is an element of incompetence rather than an attack on Members’ rights to debate, but this needs to be looked into. I seek your guidance on whether, if we do not finish the debate here, more time can be allocated on the Floor to discuss the principle and the content of this legislation. I am sure it is something that the Chief Whip would want to know more about, alongside fishing interests.

[Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Pritchard. As the papers for this meeting are not ready and not sufficiently supplied for all the Members who are attending, I suggest that the meeting be adjourned until they can be provided.

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[The Chair]

Well, thank you. I would just say that I think, with the Government Whip here, that the strong feelings of some Members of this Committee have been noted by the Government Whips.

On the point on the membership and the paperwork being available, that paperwork is en route. In fairness to the Committee staff, I suspect that they did not anticipate the level of turnout that we have this evening. We could suspend the sitting, but I think that it might be more helpful if we perhaps encouraged the concept of sharing Committee papers, and I am happy to lead by example—exemplo ducemus, as the former Leader of the House might know—and I am very happy for him to have my Committee membership paperwork. I will take that decision; the paperwork is on its way; it will be here shortly, and if the right hon. Gentleman really does need to see the latest list, I am happy to provide it to him personally, or he can share with other Committee Members. I am sure that other comments will be made in a moment, but—

[Sir James Duddridge]

rose—

[The Chair]

Forgive me, Sir James, but I will go through these points if I may. On the Committee membership, I think that Mr Speaker made it clear earlier today that that can be done. In fact, just to give a little more detail, the Committee membership of any Committee can be decided up to 10 minutes before the Committee actually sits, but I actually have the latest list, which I think was completed just shortly—50 minutes—before.

On the general point on Committee selection and changes, that is perfectly within order, and the convention is that changes can be made up to 10 minutes before the Committee sits.

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[The Chair]

On the point about convention, the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, but he will know, probably more than anybody else on the Committee, that this House, apart from “Erskine May”—parallel to that—runs very much on convention. I refer him to the most recent ruling on such an occurrence happening, which was from Mr Speaker in the main Chamber this afternoon. That is the very latest ruling from the Speaker, drawing on convention. I am just a minor Member of the Panel of Chairs: the hon. Gentleman would not expect me to take a different view from that of Mr Speaker, given all the advice he received.

[Sir James Duddridge]

On a point of order, Mr Pritchard. Members have quite rightly asked for information, and additional information has been put out, but I received additional information when I was first nominated to the Committee. I was hoping to pick up a hard copy, and it is absolutely essential that such information is circulated to everyone else before we make decisions. Although I believe that there was not a consultation specifically on the regulations, I received about six consultation submissions to the Committee when I was appointed to it, including from the Democratic Unionist party. All disagreed and had substantive comments to make. I looked at it a little—I did not do all the work —in the full knowledge that the information would be here and that the whole Committee would be able to probe that information and probe the Minister on those submissions. From memory, they were all against.

The information was not here at the beginning, and I do not believe that copies have been brought in, so I have to defer to my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset: this Committee cannot continue. Either the Minister should now withdraw the motion or, as a defender of the House, you should refuse to go forward, Mr Pritchard, because it is a principle of the House that if we do not have the information in front of us, we cannot decide. Either the Minister or you must bring this thing to a halt. We can always come back. This does not need to happen until 27 September 2024, so it is not an urgent matter.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[The Chair]

Let me answer that point of order, because I want to try to give as full and comprehensive answers as possible. Regardless of whether the right hon. Member for North East Somerset felt that it was here or not, all the paperwork has been available online—that is the first thing. For people who might not want to read Committee papers online, they have been available all the time in the Vote Office, which I have just had confirmed by the Clerk.

[Sir James Duddridge]

Not true. Mr Pritchard, you clearly would not intentionally mislead the House or the Committee, but I was at the Vote Office to get all the paperwork. They asked me: “Would you like us to get it for you here?” That was at 24 minutes past 5 o’clock. I looked, knowing that I had something else to go to quickly, and said: “No, that’s okay. I don’t need you to print it off. It doesn’t matter that you haven’t got it for Members, because it will be in the Committee Room.” I had not realised that no one had the paperwork—it is needed.

[The Chair]

The advice that I have received is that it is and was available. As the hon. Member suggests, that might not be the case, but at this moment, we are checking, emailing the Vote Office directly as well as other Clerks, to see what the reality is. If I may, I will take the other points of order and, when I get a response, I will give a fuller answer. I am basing my answer now on the advice I have received so far; that advice might change in the next few minutes. We are seeking clarification, which I suspect the hon. Member would want us to do, rather than speaking in part.

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[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Victoria Atkins)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Postal Packets (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2023.

May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard? May I also thank hon. Members, including right hon. and hon. Friends, for coming to this Committee today? I hope that they are able to hear me. I thank them for coming to this Committee. I do understand the sensitivities—

[Sir James Duddridge]

On a point of order, Mr Pritchard.

[Victoria Atkins]

I am just moving the motion—

[Sir James Duddridge]

No, I am asking Mr Pritchard to take a point of order. I am not asking to intervene on the Minister; I am making a point of order.

[The Chair]

Point of order, Sir James Duddridge.

[Sir James Duddridge]

Thank you, Mr Pritchard. My understanding is that I probed you on when we would restart, and you said it would be after the Divisions. A Division is still continuing. The Whips were instructing people who were put on the Committee subsequently to rush here early. I was operating on the instruction that you gave to the Committee—[Interruption.] Sorry, but at least one Member was being rushed here. I saw it; I was standing next—[Interruption.] It was not my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Middleton; it was another hon. Member who is here. And other people are waiting; they are still in the Division Lobby, wanting to contribute here. They are people who might not be on this Committee.

It is wholly inappropriate that the Committee has restarted. When I saw that person rushing, I tried to push my way through the Lobby to get through, to rush up here, which I did, and we had already started. We were in the middle of points of order. In fact, my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes, who was in the middle of a point of order, was suggesting to you that there was a solution. He was in the middle of a point, and you quite rightly stopped him, but he had the floor.

This Committee is being duped. I hope that as I am speaking to you, someone is messaging my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes to come back to his place to continue that point of order. It is most disorderly that this is happening. Yet again, the Government Whips are breaking convention and are undermining this House. It is absolutely disgusting, and it should not be tolerated.

[The Chair]

Although I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order, may I just say that the hon. Member for Devizes could have been here—

[Sir James Duddridge]

My hon. Friend the Member for Devizes is here, Mr Pritchard. He had the floor when we closed. You said, Mr Pritchard, that we would restart when things finished. I apologise for intervening on you.

[The Chair]

You are not intervening on me; I called you. You will not intervene on me, ever; I will call you on a point of order. Let us be clear about that.

I have been very tolerant on points of order. Let me make it absolutely clear: if there are to be other points of order, they will have to be different points of order. We are not going to go around the same procedural route with points of order that I have answered; I will not tolerate additional points of order that are just repetitions of previous points of order.

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[Victoria Atkins]

I am really pleased that my hon. Friend has brought that up, because it touches on the timing point that colleagues have raised. Understandably, colleagues have asked, “Why is this happening now? Why can’t it wait until October next year?” Of course, the Windsor framework arrangements will come into force in October next year, but there is a limited range of prohibited or restricted goods that are supposed to comply with EU customs rules today—for example, hazardous chemicals and chemicals that can deplete the ozone, and blood diamonds have also been mentioned to me. We do not have those powers at the moment, so we need to fill the gap as quickly as we can, so that in respect of those goods—

[Sir James Duddridge]

Will the Minister give way?

[Victoria Atkins]

May I finish the point, please? We need to ensure that Northern Ireland is not being used as a back door into the EU. I am coming at this matter not necessarily from the perspective of being particularly mindful of what may or may not happen in the single market—I do not know whether I am allowed to say that, but there we go—but because I do not want communities in Northern Ireland to be facing these pressures. I look across the room to those who know far better than I, but I am very conscious and have some small understanding of just how those pressures have been withstood valiantly in the past by communities in Northern Ireland. We want to do everything we can to support them in that and to ensure that they can continue to thrive.

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[Victoria Atkins]

I remind the Committee that we are looking at parcels, not at freight—although of course there are extensions in that regard. Of course, if items are being imported into Great Britain via Dover, Harwich, Immingham or wherever, there are separate powers on those goods to protect communities in Great Britain and, I would argue, further afield. I acknowledge the difficulties, particularly for those representing Unionist interests in Northern Ireland, but we wish to move these issues forward, and the Windsor framework is a good deal for the United Kingdom as a whole.

We need powers now to stop non-Northern Irish recipients using Northern Ireland as a back door, which is why we are so keen to pass this provision quickly and to make progress. I imagine that businesses in Northern Ireland, and businesses in Great Britain that wish to conduct business with Northern Ireland, will want to ensure that we can do this as quickly as we can. This was a significant deal for the Government, and I absolutely understand and respect the wish to scrutinise it, but we have to move forwards with this.

[Sir James Duddridge]

The list of goods seems quite general, and I was wondering whether there were more specifics. It refers to

“restricted goods, for example invasive alien species or ozone depleting substances”.

In particular, I am mindful of a company in Shoeburyness that exports seeds. It has already stopped exporting to some EU countries because of problems as a result of Brexit, but I could see it giving up unless there is a definitive list. Is there a list, or will one come out through a further SI?

[Victoria Atkins]

I want to ensure that I can provide the list to my hon. Friend now. However, just on that wider subject, the situation that he has described is exactly what we want to try to avoid in the future. He will know that there was uncertainty about how the protocol would apply. I think it was the chairman of Marks & Spencer at the time who came on to the radio at some point and talked about the 50 or so checks that M&S had to go through to send products to its stores in Northern Ireland. We want to cut through all of that, and I hope the Windsor framework will help the businesses in my hon. Friend’s constituency. I also hope that he will know that we are putting a great deal of effort into the trader support service to help businesses to navigate these new customs duties. Of course, that is in the freight space as well. The Government want to grow the economy and our relationship with businesses. I am very helpfully reminded that there is published guidance on gov.uk already, but I am happy to provide it separately to my hon. Friend if he wishes to see the complete list. It is published on there already.

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[Sir James Duddridge]

I did not really understand the grace period, although I read about it. Does it refer to Brexit and the pre-protocol period, or is it something slightly more technical dealing with parcels?

[Sammy Wilson]

It was recognised that not even the infrastructure was in place to deal with all the parcels that come from GB to Northern Ireland. It was also known that, politically, this would create a huge storm, so a concession was made. The Government simply said, “It is impossible for us to implement the protocol, so we’re not going to implement that bit of it,” and the EU accepted that, so why has that situation not been left to pertain? The protection of the grace periods has now been removed, and we are introducing legislation that gives the EU the ability to say what are licit and illicit goods.

The Minister said that we do not need to worry, but we are told that one of the reasons this legislation is necessary now is that there are concerns about goods that affect the ozone layer, and that invasive species might be transferred, so we need protections. What happens if, in the future, the EU says, “People have found a way around this. They have decided that they can send those things from Sammy Wilson to somebody else in Northern Ireland”? Can the EU then use that as an argument for expanding the parcels regulations and demanding that parcels that go from one person to another be inspected too?

I asked a businessperson today, “How many of your goods do you expect to go through the green lane and be exempt? How many are business-to-business goods that are exclusively for consumption in Northern Ireland?” He said, “We don’t even know, because there has been no assessment of the kinds of parcels that are being sent at present. We have to assume that about 75% of parcels will have to go through the red lane.” I asked him, “What does that mean in terms of delays and costs?” I was told that, currently, the costs for goods that go through the full process from England through Dublin are higher than the freight costs themselves; the process used to take two days, but it now takes five days. We can see immediately how businesses in Northern Ireland will be affected by this change.

The Minister cannot run away from the arguments. First, this legislation undermines the Union; secondly, it will be costly to business; thirdly, even now the Government cannot tell businesses what new arrangements will be put in place; and, fourthly, there is no guarantee that the EU, when it has control through these regulations, will not use them in a way that the Government do not expect. That is why I believe that these regulations are flawed. They are not needed, they are a surrender to the demands of the EU, and they change the nature of the relationship between Northern Ireland and the UK.

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[The Chair]

Order. I remind colleagues that we have six minutes left, and I am sure they want to hear the response of the Minister and shadow Minister. No? Okay, the hon. Member for Rochford and Southend East does not want to speak now. Shadow Minister—

[Sir James Duddridge]

No, Mr Pritchard. There are four or five people standing. When you said “want to hear the shadow Minister”, I was shaking my head, because I did not want to hear the shadow Minister until there had been proper debate. I have a number of points to make, and there are four or five people on this side who want to speak. I thought that the right hon. Member for East Antrim was taking an intervention. He was taking an intervention and had sat down, so it was not the right point for me to rise. The Government have not provided enough time. We are not going to get through the speakers. We are not going to go through the normal protocols here. It is not my fault, Mr Pritchard. It is the Government’s fault.

[The Chair]

Order. The hon. Gentleman, as a former Whip, knows that the timetable is set in another place, not by me as the Chair. I made it quite clear what time these proceedings would conclude. Sammy Wilson, if you want to continue, that is fine, and you can use the whole time, but if Members of the Committee want to hear from His Majesty’s loyal Opposition, briefly, and then from the Government Minister responding to some of the points raised in the debate, that is entirely up to them. The question will be put at 21 minutes past.

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[Abena Oppong-Asare (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve on this Committee with you in the Chair, Mr Pritchard. As we have seen, there has been a meaningful debate today. I welcome the opportunity to address the measures laid out in the draft statutory instrument on behalf of the Opposition.

[Sir James Duddridge]

rose—

[The Chair]

Order. Is the hon. Gentleman trying to intervene?

[Sir James Duddridge]

No, I rose to make a speech, and I believe that at least four other individuals behind me also rose to make a speech.

[The Chair]

I will say to the hon. Gentleman that he is on the speaking list. Every time he does these interventions and points of order, he is just eating into the time. I know the Minister will want to respond to some of the points that he and others have raised. If he wants to continue, that is fine—

[Sir James Duddridge]

I do. I have 18 questions for the Minister.

[The Chair]

Order. I ask the hon. Gentleman to resume his seat if he is not intervening on the shadow Minister. Unless she has accepted the intervention, he has to resume his seat. As I said at the beginning and in the proceedings after the votes, points of order that have previously been made will not be taken. I ask the hon. Gentleman again to please resume his seat.

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[Adam Afriyie]

Will the Minister give way?

[Sir James Duddridge]

rose—

[Victoria Atkins]

I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend East.

[Sir James Duddridge]

I was standing to be called in the debate to make my 18 points; I was not asking the Minister to give way—apologies.

[The Chair]

Order. I must now put the question.

Question put:—

The Committee proceeded to a Division.