Draft Postal Packets (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2023

Sammy Wilson Excerpts

Monday 17th July 2023 General Committees

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

On a point of order, Mr Pritchard. The statutory instrument we are debating may seem very flimsy, but it is important in so far as it is part of the jigsaw that has now been devised to rewrite the map of this country and to remove Northern Ireland from it. The way in which the Windsor framework has gone through to date has caused immense anger and political instability back in Northern Ireland. We have had a 90-minute debate in the House on one part of it, which we were then told accepted the whole framework, and now we have this today. We have seen the Government so anxious to push it through because, as we will see once we start examining it, this statutory instrument puts another block in the barrier—the border—between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. The Government’s way of making sure it goes through is to carry out a purge of their own party. I am glad to see that those who were purged escaped the gulag and are here tonight to raise their voice in defiance.

Mr Pritchard, given the enormity of the issue, the way in which it has been handled and the perception that it will create of the democratic process in this House—the depths to which the Government will stoop—I believe that it is important that you pay heed to the points that have been made: the papers were not available; Members feel that they have been harassed out and removed from their positions because they wish to express a point of view; and the legislation will be given the most cursory scrutiny. I believe that it is important, and it is a heavy burden on your shoulders to ask yourself: given what has happened, can this Committee proceed and have any integrity at the end of it?

[The Chair]

Mr Wilson, your point has been noted by the Chair and will be fed back to Mr Speaker, and the Government Whips are listening. You refer to me. When it comes to this position of Chair and whoever sits in the Chair, the House convention, “Erskine May” and the rules and procedures of this House are greater than one individual, however flawed or not flawed the person who sits here, so this is not a matter for me. Whoever sits in the Chair is rightly guided and protected, as Members are, by those who have gone before us.

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[Victoria Atkins]

May I finish the point, please? We need to ensure that Northern Ireland is not being used as a back door into the EU. I am coming at this matter not necessarily from the perspective of being particularly mindful of what may or may not happen in the single market—I do not know whether I am allowed to say that, but there we go—but because I do not want communities in Northern Ireland to be facing these pressures. I look across the room to those who know far better than I, but I am very conscious and have some small understanding of just how those pressures have been withstood valiantly in the past by communities in Northern Ireland. We want to do everything we can to support them in that and to ensure that they can continue to thrive.

[Sammy Wilson]

I am bemused by the Minister’s explanation. If she is concerned about hazardous substances, invasive species and the other things that are mentioned in the explanatory memorandum being transferred by post from GB to Northern Ireland, is she not also concerned about them being transferred in parcels from London to Scotland and London to Wales? If the regulations are all about protecting markets, why are the Government singling out Northern Ireland?

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[Sammy Wilson]

This appears rather a flimsy instrument, but when one reads through it, it is clear that it is dynamite. It blows apart the promise made that the Windsor framework ensures we remove any sense of a border in the Irish sea. In fact, this legislation will ensure that the border is deepened, made higher and cemented in place, and some of the temporary arrangements in the protocol will now be made permanent. Any change to them will be made not by legislation in this House but on the basis of whether the EU is prepared to change its legislation. In effect, once these regulations are passed, we become totally subject to the EU, amending article 7 and changing the rules about what are legal and what are illegal goods going into Northern Ireland and being obliged then to put in place the necessary border provisions. This does not protect the Union. I know that the Minister had a hard job today, and she repeated almost ad nauseam “Oh, the Windsor framework is better than the protocol.” The fact of the matter is that the instrument is only one piece of the jigsaw that will further remove Northern Ireland from the rest of the United Kingdom.

Let us just look at the draft regulations. Why are they necessary? Because there are things that cannot be done by HMRC and Border Force under existing legislation. The explanatory memorandum makes it clear that certain things that currently cannot be done need to be done. Why do they need to be done, and how do we ensure that they will be done? The draft regulations make it quite clear that Border Force and HMRC need to be able to carry out searches and interference on goods moving from GB into Northern Ireland, which they currently cannot do for movements within the United Kingdom.

The way in which we do that is by treating Northern Ireland as a foreign country. That is why not once, but six times in this short piece of legislation, we read that “GB to Northern Ireland” is added to regulations that currently refer only to foreign goods. Northern Ireland is effectively being treated as if it were a country that is foreign to the rest of the UK, and therefore the requirements and arrangements can be put in place for HMRC and Border Force to interfere with postal arrangements, which previously they could not do. Of course, you cannot import or export within your own country, so you change the definition in order to ensure that goods moving from GB to Northern Ireland are regarded as exports. We are now lumped in with foreign countries; indeed, references to the UK have now been changed to GB. I do not care what the Minister says about protecting the Union and not trying to redraw lines. In anybody’s definition, it amounts to Northern Ireland now being treated as a foreign country.

[Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con)]

This is the first time that I have seen Northern Ireland treated separately from the rest of the United Kingdom in UK legislation. Is that the right hon. Gentleman’s understanding as well? It is quite an alarming signal.

[Sammy Wilson]

That is one of the reasons why I say this is dynamite, because it exposes the lie being peddled at present that the Windsor framework actually cements us into the United Kingdom. It does not; it pushes us further out.

The second point I want to make is that businesses have been kept in the dark. In fact, the scrutiny Committee pointed out that many businesses do not know what the arrangements are, and the Government have not even been able to give an answer on what the new arrangements are going to be. What will they entail? What provision will there be? The Minister argues that there will be no effect and that, if anything, be better for person-to-person parcels. She says that there will be no effect on business to consumers and that there will be some effect on business to business. The truth of the matter, though, is that once this legislation is passed, the EU will have total control over what movements need to be checked, and our Government will have no say about what happens in Northern Ireland.

[John Redwood]

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that there has already been diversion of trade away from GB into Northern Ireland, and is he worried that the draft regulations will create a lot more diversion of trade away from GB?

[Sammy Wilson]

The right hon. Gentleman is quite right: that is the problem. In the absence of detailed knowledge about what the new arrangements will be, businesses will simply turn their back on Northern Ireland. I spoke to a constituent today who wanted to buy a mattress from Argos. Although Argos clearly brings goods into Northern Ireland, that was obviously inconvenient for it and it simply said, “We don’t sell mattresses to Northern Ireland any longer.” That is exactly what is happening. Even if the Minister is correct, the threat that there will be different arrangements for taking goods and postal packages into Northern Ireland will discourage businesses from entering into those kinds of arrangements. We are already seeing the diversion of trade.

The Government’s argument is that the draft regulations improve the situation, but actually, they do not. If we had stopped even with the provisions of the protocol, the grace periods would have prevented this from happening. It does not happen at present. If the Government really want there to be no interference, why not stick with the grace periods? Why not make it clear that the regulations are not needed? There has been no leakage during the grace periods, and there is no evidence that hazardous goods and so on are moving into the EU. Why did the Government not take that stance? Why are the Government still not taking that stance? There would then be no need for the regulations.

[Sir James Duddridge]

I did not really understand the grace period, although I read about it. Does it refer to Brexit and the pre-protocol period, or is it something slightly more technical dealing with parcels?

[Sammy Wilson]

It was recognised that not even the infrastructure was in place to deal with all the parcels that come from GB to Northern Ireland. It was also known that, politically, this would create a huge storm, so a concession was made. The Government simply said, “It is impossible for us to implement the protocol, so we’re not going to implement that bit of it,” and the EU accepted that, so why has that situation not been left to pertain? The protection of the grace periods has now been removed, and we are introducing legislation that gives the EU the ability to say what are licit and illicit goods.

The Minister said that we do not need to worry, but we are told that one of the reasons this legislation is necessary now is that there are concerns about goods that affect the ozone layer, and that invasive species might be transferred, so we need protections. What happens if, in the future, the EU says, “People have found a way around this. They have decided that they can send those things from Sammy Wilson to somebody else in Northern Ireland”? Can the EU then use that as an argument for expanding the parcels regulations and demanding that parcels that go from one person to another be inspected too?

I asked a businessperson today, “How many of your goods do you expect to go through the green lane and be exempt? How many are business-to-business goods that are exclusively for consumption in Northern Ireland?” He said, “We don’t even know, because there has been no assessment of the kinds of parcels that are being sent at present. We have to assume that about 75% of parcels will have to go through the red lane.” I asked him, “What does that mean in terms of delays and costs?” I was told that, currently, the costs for goods that go through the full process from England through Dublin are higher than the freight costs themselves; the process used to take two days, but it now takes five days. We can see immediately how businesses in Northern Ireland will be affected by this change.

The Minister cannot run away from the arguments. First, this legislation undermines the Union; secondly, it will be costly to business; thirdly, even now the Government cannot tell businesses what new arrangements will be put in place; and, fourthly, there is no guarantee that the EU, when it has control through these regulations, will not use them in a way that the Government do not expect. That is why I believe that these regulations are flawed. They are not needed, they are a surrender to the demands of the EU, and they change the nature of the relationship between Northern Ireland and the UK.

[Adam Afriyie]

I am very much enjoying listening to the right hon. Gentleman,, and I thank him for allowing me one last intervention. Does he have any concerns about the power of the European Union to change these regulations—going way back to the Act of Union, not just the current regulations?

[Sammy Wilson]

They do. Even the explanatory notes make it quite clear that this will be subject to the EU still abiding by article 7 of the protocol. If the EU decides to say, “Look, article 7 isn’t working”—for whatever reason, maybe people are bypassing it—they can change it, and we do not have any say at that stage. We have handed control over the movement of goods from GB to Northern Ireland to a foreign entity.

[Jonathan Gullis]

Will the hon. Member give way?

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[The Chair]

Order. The hon. Gentleman, as a former Whip, knows that the timetable is set in another place, not by me as the Chair. I made it quite clear what time these proceedings would conclude. Sammy Wilson, if you want to continue, that is fine, and you can use the whole time, but if Members of the Committee want to hear from His Majesty’s loyal Opposition, briefly, and then from the Government Minister responding to some of the points raised in the debate, that is entirely up to them. The question will be put at 21 minutes past.

[Sammy Wilson]

I was just giving way, Mr Pritchard, and then once I have, I will sit down.

[Jonathan Gullis]

The right hon. Gentleman was outlining the fact that this will be subject to EU regulations—article 7 of the protocol. Would the celebrated brake in the Windsor framework be able to be applied to the legislation, in his understanding?

[Sammy Wilson]

No, it would not, because the brake itself is totally ineffective. We have already had a huge debate on that in the past. With that, I will sit down, as I understand that there are people who wish to speak.