Draft Postal Packets (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2023

Mark Francois Excerpts

Monday 17th July 2023 General Committees

[Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg]

Further to that point of order, Mr Pritchard. I think that point of order is fundamental because without the papers, how can people consider this legislation properly? All that was available when I came in was the explanatory memorandum. The list of members is not available, which seems to be a deeply unsatisfactory state of affairs when the names of the members have changed so rapidly during the course of the day. When we are playing the hokey-cokey with members of the Committee, the House at least ought to be informed of who those members are. I suggest a brief adjournment while the papers are provided, and then we should come to the other points of order.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Pritchard. I have two quick points.

First, I understand that the knife on the Illegal Migration Bill will fall at 6.26 pm. If you were a cynic, you would believe that the Government deliberately timed this debate for this evening, knowing that it would be ripped up by all those votes, bearing in mind we had 18 votes on the Bill last week. If you are a cynic, it is perfectly obvious to see what the Government have done; they have timed the debate now so it will be interrupted by the votes. However, can you confirm, Mr Pritchard, that if these proceedings are interrupted, there will be injury time so the debate will begin again quite a long while later, after the votes have taken place?

Secondly, for the record, the Committee of Selection nominated Members to this SI Committee last week in the normal way, including my hon. Friends the Members for Windsor, for Rochford and Southend East, for Devizes, for Dudley North and for Don Valley. I understand that some or all of those people indicated to the Whips in conversations over the weekend that they had what theologians might call “doubts” about the Government’s approach. Some even threatened to vote against the legislation, whereupon they were summarily removed from the Committee by the Whips, using a procedure that is normally used only for last-minute substitutions and very special circumstances—for instance, if a family member is ill.

In 22 years in this House, I have never known the Whips, from either side, to do this. This is beyond sixth-form politics. This is manipulating the parliamentary process because the Windsor framework is clearly a failure, and it is such a failure that the Whips have to rig Committees to get it through, so they have found a bunch of other Members, at short notice, who perhaps, shall we say, are not quite as inquisitive as the five who were nobbled. You have been here a long while, Mr Pritchard; have you, in your time in this House, ever known anything quite as shameful as this?

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Pritchard, I thoroughly endorse what my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend East and my right hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford have said. I have been here nearly 40 years, and I have never seen anything like this. I really do deeply resent the fact that this has been done in the manner in which it has been done. Already, comments are being made on the Floor of the House, which are part of the record, and it is an extraordinary situation. I have never seen anything like it and I think that it is outrageous.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Francois]

Further to that point of order, Mr Pritchard. As we all know, “Erskine May”, the bible of parliamentary procedure, cannot account for every possible circumstance under the sun. Therefore, Members of Parliament are used to operating within a number of well understood conventions—we might call them our traditions, for want of a better phrase. If Back Benchers see those conventions being deliberately abused, they rightly get very upset, which is exactly what is happening before your eyes.

For some years, I served on the Committee of Selection, so I know well how the procedure works. If someone is nominated to the Committee, but unfortunately cannot attend, the convention is that they try to find a substitute. If a family member is ill or there is some other pressing reason why they cannot be there, they basically ask a friend or a colleague to substitute for them. There is a procedure whereby the Whips can facilitate that, without having to reconvene the whole Committee of Selection. Everybody understands that; that is the norm.

What is not the norm is for people to be taken off a Committee against their will. That is completely irregular. That is what has happened here—five times over, for the same Committee. That is not in order; that is not a convention; that is the Government trying to rig a Committee and to get rid of people whom they thought might have the moral courage to vote the wrong way. It is bent, and that is what they have done.

You, Mr Pritchard, should not be facilitating that. You yourself, sir, admitted that the final membership of this Committee was finalised only 50 minutes before it was due to begin. That is extraordinary. Why? Because so many shenanigans were going on behind the scenes.

I offer the Whip on duty, my right hon. Friend the Member for Pendle—who, for the record, I happen to respect—and the Minister some genuine advice: do not move the motion, because everyone can see that this has become a farce. Accept that this has gone wrong—it was a mistake—so do not move it and bring it back another time. That is by far the best thing to do in the circumstances. Do not move the motion, allow the dust to settle and let us discuss the draft regulations, which are not due to come into force until 2024, in the proper way when we have more time. However, do not force the Committee to go ahead on a basis that is blatantly and obviously rigged.

[The Chair]

I will make a few points in response. As I said in my preamble, all Members who attend may speak; they just cannot vote. I know that does not address all the right hon. Gentleman’s points. So that I am not misunderstood, let me say I received the latest copy 50 minutes before the Committee began; that was not when the last submission of changes was made, which was 10.50 am this morning—to be absolutely clear—but I get his wider point.

I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman recognises conventions, because in my fourth and final point in response I will mention a convention to him. It is for the Committee of Selection to decide its own rules. If the Committee or the House decides that more comprehensive review is needed, the Procedure Committee may look at it, but that is not a suggestion from the Chair. It is just a matter of fact.

On a point of order back to the right hon. Gentleman, he used a very unparliamentary term. He will have to withdraw the word “bent”. Before I call the former Leader of the House—[Interruption.] Order. I can only deal with one point of order at a time.

[Mr Francois]

If that is your ruling—

[Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg]

The Chair does not have the authority to order my right hon. Friend to withdraw in Committee. The Speaker has that authority on the Floor of the House; the Chairman of a Committee does not have that authority. He may ask, but he cannot insist.

[Mr Francois]

For the avoidance of doubt, I will withdraw it anyway. You and I have known each other for many years, Mr Pritchard; if you think that word was disorderly, out of respect for you and mindful of the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset, I will withdraw it. I will replace “bent” with “rigged”.

[The Chair]

It is not a matter of my opinion of what is orderly or disorderly; it is a matter of what the House thinks. I have heard a lot worse over those many years.