Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 13th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Finally—patience rewarded—I call Mr Ian Lucas.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I welcome the Minister to his post. Is he aware that the callous policy of the Conservative Government of implementing personal independence payments is leading to many people being prevented from working because Motability cars are being taken away from them, which prevents them from being able to travel to work? Will he speak to the Prime Minister, who is sitting next to him, to try to talk some sense into him?

[Guto Bebb]

I find the hon. Gentleman’s comments slightly disappointing. When he looks at all the changes in the employment situation in his constituency, he should welcome this Government’s work on welfare reform. The welfare reform changes that we are putting in place are contributing to behavioural change, leading to more people supporting their own families and contributing to the economy. When he looks at the statistics for the Wrexham constituency, he should welcome the changes, instead of condemning them.

Macur Review of Historical Child Abuse

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd March 2016 Westminster Hall

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

I am pleased to see you in the chair, Sir Edward. May I take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister on his appointment? This is not the easiest of debates with which to start. I also congratulate the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) on her studied and sensible remarks.

This is a really difficult issue for Wrexham. It has cast a cloud over the years that I have been in Parliament, which are many now. The Waterhouse report was published in the year before I became a Member of Parliament and refers to events that occurred very often in Wrexham in the 1980s and 1990s, when I lived and worked in the area. There were great hopes for the Macur review. On Thursday, when the Secretary of State for Wales made a statement, I said that I was astonished. I am afraid that having considered the review to the extent I have been able to thus far, I do not in any way resile from my statement; in fact, I would intensify it.

The reaction within Wrexham has been one of huge disappointment and distress. The hon. Lady referred to Keith Gregory, who is my constituent and a local Plaid Cymru councillor in Wrexham, and to whom I spoke at the weekend. There is intense disappointment, but it simply confirms the view of many survivors about the political class, the political system and the whole world in which many of my constituents see politicians as operating. I am afraid that the report, with the redactions that have been referred to, will intensify the disillusion that the survivors of these incidents feel about the political and judicial system in north Wales.

A lot of issues will arise from the report, and I tell the Parliamentary Under-Secretary and Ministers at the Ministry of Justice that I will be pursuing many of those questions through parliamentary questions and further debate. We need a substantial debate—a full day’s debate—on this report, which is of national importance, in order to address the issues in it, once we have had the opportunity to try to read it. I congratulate the hon. Lady on reading the report: I have had real difficulty doing so because of the number of redactions in it. Many of the most important and controversial aspects of the report are very difficult to extract from the document we have.

The issue of redaction is very important. I was surprised last Thursday that the then Secretary of State for Wales made the statement, because I had expected the Lord Chancellor to make it. I have raised questions in connection with the publication of this report that have always been answered by the Ministry of Justice, which I therefore expected to be dealing with the matter. Although the report was jointly commissioned by the Wales Office and the Ministry of Justice, it is very important that Justice Ministers—I mean no disrespect to the Wales Office—should answer, because there are very technical and difficult legal questions relating to it.

It is clear that this report followed correspondence that took place between the Lord Chancellor and Lady Macur who was conducting an investigation and doing an independent report. The important issue of redaction was at the heart of that correspondence. The review itself makes it clear in paragraph 8.4 that

“the redaction of this report is a matter for the commissioning departments.”

It is very important that everyone out there understands that the redactions in the report were made by the Government, not by the judge. The only people who have seen the full report and have made the redactions are the Government.

However, that was not enough for the Lord Chancellor. Information that is given to us by Lady Justice Macur in paragraph 1.44 of the report tells us that Her Majesty’s Procurator General and Treasury Solicitor, Jonathan Jones, asked for a meeting with her to discuss the

“inclusion of names of individuals subject to unsubstantiated allegations.”

In the review, Lady Justice Macur says that she refused to have such a meeting.

That was not the end of the matter as far as the Ministry of Justice was concerned. I should make it clear that I have written to the Lord Chancellor to give him notice that I will be referring to this report and to him as an individual in this debate, because after the refusal to meet the Treasury Solicitor, the Lord Chancellor—effectively Lady Macur’s boss—wrote a letter to her. She is the head of an independent judicial inquiry investigating an alleged cover-up. He asked her to withhold the names of individuals who were the subject of allegations from the draft review presented to other Government Departments—so the Lord Chancellor asked her to take the names out of the draft report that was being sent, within the Government, to other Departments. I do not regard that as appropriate. This was an independent judicial inquiry and the matter was one for the judge.

I would have liked to question the Lord Chancellor on those points but, unfortunately, he did not present the report to Parliament, so I have not had the opportunity to do so: I will pursue those matters. In any event, the Government have redacted, as we have heard, huge swathes of the Macur review, removing in particular the names of individuals who have been the subject of speculation and who have national recognition. For example, the name Peter Morrison has been redacted from the report, but puzzlingly, other names—Greville Janner, Lord Gareth Williams—have not.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

If I may correct the hon. Gentleman, Peter Morrison’s name does appear in the body of the report. It is important that the hon. Gentleman clarifies that, because it is not redacted.

[Ian C. Lucas]

It appears in one part of the report, but it is also redacted in other parts of it. His name appears in the introduction, I believe, but in the part that relates to establishment figures, his name is redacted.

[Mr David Jones]

The point I was seeking to make is that his name is not wholly redacted, and since the hon. Gentleman is making a speech that covers very important matters, it is necessary to clarify that point.

[Ian C. Lucas]

I am grateful for that clarification, but in the chapter that relates to establishment figures, the two names that I referred to are not redacted, whereas Peter Morrison’s name is. It is very difficult to deduce a line of principle to see why someone made that decision. I think we need to have that information, and I think it is very important and very appropriate that the Children’s Commissioner for Wales has written to the Secretary of State for Wales, saying that

“more can be done to communicate many of the omissions to be found in the report, and seek a greater level of transparency to be afforded to victims. As such, I call on the UK Government to issue a statement explaining the methodology used for redacting the publically available Macur Review Report, giving a full rationale for the changes made. Without an understanding of the approach employed by the Government’s lawyers, many will continue to question whether there has been protection of individuals because of their position in society, rather than because there are ongoing criminal investigations, or if there is no evidence against them.”

Some of the people whose names have been redacted are dead, so there will not be any continuing criminal investigations as far as they are concerned, and it is very difficult to understand why these redactions have been made and what element of principle is involved. We need that information because we have to try to persuade our constituents that our political system is not rotten and that it does afford them some element of protection.

I am also very concerned about the circumstances in which the review was set up. There is a very interesting section starting in paragraph 1.33 of the review concerning a Wales Office note, and the involvement of the Cabinet Secretary in the compilation of a note that involved the former Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones), who is here today. It seems from the report that issues that are directly relevant to the establishment of the Macur review have been left hanging in the air and that a Cabinet note, which is referred to in paragraph 1.40, has not been disclosed. That is one of many documents that are available and should be published. A huge number of questions arise from the report and I am afraid its contents do nothing to resolve the disillusion of my constituents or the many survivors who suffered at the hands of criminals in north Wales in the 1980s and 1990s.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making a valuable contribution to the debate. Does he think that handing an unredacted copy to the Goddard inquiry will affect the delay in anyone having any chance of finding out what the redactions are? The Goddard inquiry is very optimistically expected to report in two years, but the scale of the inquiry is so enormous that most people think it will take a decade. Is it right that the abuse of those young people should continue for at least another 10 years?

[Ian C. Lucas]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point. The report took over three years and I would be astonished—to use that phrase again—if the Goddard review reported within that timeframe. That is why it is incumbent on us to ask these questions. It is unacceptable that only members of the Government see the unredacted report. I am a former Minister and an elected Member of Parliament and it is appropriate for the unredacted report to be seen by individuals in Opposition parties. Otherwise, the inference that political motives are involved will continue to be made.

[Mr David Jones]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that another disturbing element of the report is the handling of the documentation of the inquiry: its transmission from the Welsh Office to the Welsh Assembly Government, and what happened when it was in the hands of the Welsh Assembly Government? Does he agree that those matters also need further clarification?

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian C. Lucas]

The disappearance of documents at so many stages during the history of this matter creates huge difficulty for anyone expecting a proper inquiry. All those matters need to be questioned and investigated further.

The difficult with the Macur review, which in many ways gives valuable information that we did not have before, is that it leaves many questions hanging in the air, and all questions need to be addressed. The content is so dense and difficult that it will take time and hard work to get through to its core. There are many disturbing questions, and more now than before the then Secretary of State for Wales made his statement on Thursday.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian C. Lucas]

I accept many of the arguments that the Minister makes, but why were the two names I mentioned earlier unredacted while many other names were redacted?

[Guto Bebb]

I will try to respond to that in my next few comments. Just to finish the comments I was making, I understand the frustration and the feeling that there could have been fewer redactions, but it is imperative that the reasoning, in the round, is understood by hon. Members. I have tried to explain why those redactions have been made. I have explained very clearly that they were undertaken as a result of advice given, which I think was quite reasonable. I hope that hon. Members will take that into account. There has been no attempt to mislead or to not be very clear as to the basis for the changes. We are more than happy to correspond on the issue if the hon. Member for Wrexham feels the need to take it any further.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point but hon. Members have made arguments that the redactions are damaging public confidence. I am unsure how the idea he offers would contribute to solving the issue of public confidence because a very limited amount of people in the political sphere would be responding. A couple of other questions were asked by the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd—

[Ian C. Lucas]

Will the Minister give way?

[Guto Bebb]

Could I just answer this question because I am aware of the time? Another question was asked by the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd about recommendation five. The issue relates to the consideration of criminal charges relating to events referred to in paragraphs 645 to 675 of the report. It does not relate to the actions of the Wales Office or of any Government Department. The police and Crown Prosecution Service are aware of the specifics of the matter, and that issue is a matter for them to consider, not the Government.

The hon. Members for Clwyd South and for Dwyfor Meirionnydd asked how many redactions, in addition to those that were a result of the advice given, were made by the Government. The answer is zero. Not a single further redaction was made. The redactions that have been made were all in accordance with the advice given and the explanation that has been provided.

The hon. Member for Wrexham asked about the publication of some names and not others. Again, the letter from the Treasury Solicitor sets out the methodology for redacting such names, saying very clearly that they are the names of people who are rumoured or speculated to be involved in abuse, who have not been convicted of a criminal offence and/or whose name is not in the public domain in the context of child abuse. That is in the letter from the Treasury Solicitor so the reasoning has been provided.

[Ian C. Lucas]

I do not accept for one moment that those principles apply to the name Peter Morrison. I do not think that any reasonable person could reach that conclusion. That name is in the public domain and it is in the report. I cannot understand why that name has been redacted. The redaction of that one name has had a massive impact on the public confidence in the whole report.

[Guto Bebb]

I hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying but I have attempted to provide an explanation as to why the redactions have been as they have been.

I need to touch on a few other issues. I do not think there is any denial of the inadequate nature of the records management, which is a point that was raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones). It is acknowledged that the records management has been poor. It was not to anybody’s satisfaction and it is fair to say that lessons have been learned by the Wales Office, and I presume that the Welsh Assembly will take some of the report’s advice on records retention very seriously. However, it is fair to state that Lady Justice Macur is clear that she received

“the majority of, if not all, relevant documentation”

and that she is

“confident in the conclusions I reach in this Report in light of numerous, varied and cumulative sources of information available”.

Again, that is not the Government’s line. That is a comment from Lady Macur regarding the lack of record-keeping or the problematic element of the record-keeping.

An important point is contained in paragraph 2.6 of the report, in which Lady Macur states quite clearly that 523 boxes of files were received, some 400 of which originated from the Wales Office. Although that is unsatisfactory compared with what we would expect from a Government Department, I stress the fact that Lady Macur does not believe that her conclusions would have been different if she had received more information than that which was provided.

We have touched on establishment names only very quickly. I have tried to explain why redactions have happened, and we are more than happy to respond to any further questions from hon. Members who believe that there is an issue there.

The other point that I would like to touch upon just before I finish is that Lady Justice Macur adds, for the sake of clarity,

“At no time have Ministers or their officials attempted to influence me in the conduct of the review or the conclusions I have drawn.”

There is a view here that there is a lack of transparency and clarity but, on every aspect, we have tried to offer an explanation and even Lady Justice Macur has said that she was not subject to any undue pressure.

I do not think I will have time to respond to the question from the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) about the Welsh language or to the question from the hon. Member for Clwyd South about the Goddard inquiry, but I will write to both Members.

The debate has been difficult and there are lessons to be learned. We will write to the Children’s Commissioner for Wales and respond to any further questions. The Macur report was certainly worth doing and it has been of value.

Macur Review

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Thursday 17th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

The hon. Lady is right that people will still be feeling like that. All I would say is that they should take the time to go through the report and look at how Lady Justice Macur has handled to the very best of her ability all the sensitive, difficult questions that have plagued survivors for years and years. A lot of lessons have already been learned from the events we are talking about. As I said in answer to a question a few moments ago, that is not to say we are complacent, as there is always more we can learn as a society. But in terms of where we are in Wales right now, we have the Children’s Commissioner and the work that the Welsh Government are doing. There is good collaboration between UK Departments and the Welsh Government on these issues to do with social services, childcare and vulnerable people. The work is positive and will carry on.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

The people of Wrexham, where many of these horrible events took place, will be astonished by the contents of today’s statement. As a solicitor who practised in the courts around Wrexham in the ‘80s and ‘90s, I am astonished by its contents. I note that the Secretary of State referred only fleetingly to some reluctance in the old Welsh Office to undertake a public inquiry in the 1990s, and I will read the report closely in that respect. Will he please tell me why the prosecutions that are now taking place as a result of Operation Pallial did not take place in 2000, following the Waterhouse inquiry? He did not address that at all in his statement.

[Stephen Crabb]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. He expresses astonishment. What I say in response to that is that if he has specific information about specific individuals, he knows where to go with it—to the police. His question as to why the arrests are being made now and were not being made 30 years ago is a specific question that I have put to the NCA. Its response was that, first, this is because of the publicity of recent years and, secondly, it is because of the culture change, with a lot more witnesses feeling empowered to come forward. That is part of the reason why much greater convictions are being secured; the police are receiving greater, specific evidence from survivors and victims who feel willing to come forward.

Welsh Affairs

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kinnock]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. As we have discussed, it is clear that energy-intensive industries require support from Government. That was recognised by the Chancellor in 2011. The support that has come, finally, is welcome. The big question for me is how it could possibly have taken five years to make that happen—to get the state aid clearance that was required from the European Union. Fundamentally, the strategy for energy must be about spreading the burden of the cost more effectively so that our energy-intensive industries are not being hung out to dry by an energy policy that does not make sense. It is also about making a firm commitment so that those investing have a sense of the stability and sustainability of the market in future. We currently do not have any of those things in place, which is why we are in such a mess.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend makes an important point about stability. Does he agree that the real problem in industries such as solar and anaerobic digestion—on which a reception was held in the House earlier this week—is the instability of the legislative and regulatory framework, which is a deterrent to long-term investment and is costing a large number of jobs in communities right across Wales?

[Stephen Kinnock]

I agree absolutely. The Energy and Climate Change Committee has just produced a compelling report that clearly demonstrates that we are losing investment and jobs precisely because of the mixed messages and signals that this Government send to investors. Business abhors a vacuum. Business needs stability. It needs to know whether there will be a return on its investments, and at present it sees no evidence whatever of that in the United Kingdom.

Wales, and south-west Wales in particular, can also be at the forefront of an internet revolution. Swansea Bay city region has based its city deal proposal on the concept of an “internet coast” to drive the digital future of energy, health and economic acceleration. All eyes are on the Chancellor. If he really wants a “march of the makers”, he must give his full backing to that exciting vision. The Swansea University bay campus, which, I emphasise, is based in my Aberavon constituency, has a huge role to play in the development of the internet coast. I look at my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) for verification of that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian C. Lucas]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his kind words earlier. He knows that I strongly share the agenda he is outlining. The Welsh Government have invested £43 million in dualling the Wrexham-Chester line, which is hugely important, and we need to do more. Will he join me in pressing the Welsh Government and the UK Government to put their money where their mouth is? The Welsh Government, to be fair, believe in cross-border transport so much that they have dualled the line in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) rather than in Wrexham, and we want it to run right through to Wrexham.

[Mr Jones]

Yes, that is the burden of my speech. As the north-eastern part of Wales is so dynamic and so important to the economy of north Wales, as well as that of the country of a whole, and because it straddles a border—a line on the map that was not there in reality until fairly recently—we need to ensure that differing policies on either side of the border do not have any unforeseen effects. Yes, of course it is essential that both the Westminster Government and the Welsh Government should be working extremely closely together in this regard.

Before I sit down, Madam Deputy Speaker—I am very much alert to your strictures on time—I will mention the A55 coast road, or expressway, which is the most important route in the whole of north Wales, linking the areas around the border to Holyhead. The road is now quite old and in desperate need of upgrading. A few years ago, arrangements were made whereby borrowing powers were given to the Welsh Government—in fact, they were given the right to access the old borrowing powers of the Welsh Development Agency—in order to upgrade road infrastructure. That was stated to be specifically for the M4 and the A55. The Welsh Government are taking steps to upgrade the M4 around the Newport area, and that is all well and good, but looking at this from a north Wales point of view, it is rather galling that they do not appear to be accessing these borrowing powers to upgrade the A55. I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to give his colleagues in the Welsh Assembly Government the message that they should realise that the A55 is just as important to the people of north Wales as the M4 is to the people of south Wales.

There is a strong perception among us north Walians that we always get the short straw. I very much hope that the Welsh Government are listening to the contributions made to this debate and will understand that there is life north of Merthyr Tydfil and that the people of north Wales need their own specific economic interests to be reflected—and that means more connectivity and more integration with the great north-west economy.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 24th February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

I am sure that my right hon. Friend, like me, welcomes the fact that the Government are cutting APD in all parts of the UK. However, let us be clear: I want Cardiff airport to be a success story, but I also recognise that there are serious concerns about the effect APD devolution might have on competition issues in relation to Bristol airport.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Is the Secretary of State aware that north Wales’s local airports are in Liverpool and Manchester? Will he pull his finger out and have meetings to improve connectivity to Manchester airport by rail from north Wales?

[Stephen Crabb]

I am very aware of the issues that the hon. Gentleman raises. I recently met the north Wales business council precisely to talk about the importance of a rail link from north Wales into Manchester airport. He makes an important point that we are very mindful of.

Draft Wales Bill (Morning sitting)

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[Stephen Crabb]

My door is always open. I do not think anybody has tried to bend over backwards and be pragmatic and flexible on this stuff more than I have. I have spent the past 18 months moving the position of the UK Government, compromising on a number of very key areas that have proved controversial. From our perspective, it feels as if we have made all the movements on our side, and we have run into the buffers of stubbornness and a lack of reasonableness.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Would not the Secretary of State’s argument carry a great deal more force if he were not the Secretary of State who had colluded in diminishing the rights of Members of Parliament from Wales to have a voice on issues that directly affect our constituents? Is not what he says about English votes for English laws and the lack of consultation that took place with Members an absolute disgrace?

[Stephen Crabb]

I do not know how to dignify that question with a response. It is a nice try to attempt to confuse the issues before us today.

I will wrap up my remarks after I have reiterated my answer to the hon. Member for Ceredigion. I am determined to get the legislation in a position that not only Assembly Members and the Welsh Government, but Members here are comfortable with—a piece of legislation that strikes the right balance and achieves our aims, which I think most fair-minded people in Wales would agree with. I will not allow this legislation, through the force of criticism from Cardiff Bay, to be changed into a piece of legislation that we are not comfortable with. As I said previously, if the Labour party were in power in the UK, its members would not take forward a Bill that delivers a separate jurisdiction. They would not be doing things that the Welsh Government are calling for.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian C. Lucas]

I am interested by that characteristically reflective speech from the Chairman of the Welsh Affairs Committee. I am pleased to follow it and will pursue some of the points he raised.

Academics do not generally favour demolitions, but anyone who attended yesterday evening’s briefing on the draft Wales Bill by the Wales governance centre at Cardiff University and the constitution unit at University College London saw an exception to the rule. It exposed the incoherence of the draft Bill that we are considering today, and it is clear that, unloved and unsupported as it is, it will effectively proceed no further in its present form. It is yet another example of constitutional vandalism, fraying the edges of the United Kingdom’s constitution while diminishing the governance of the UK as a whole. As Vernon Bogdanor, professor of government at King’s College London, argued in a lecture in the House of Lords last night, we need a constitutional convention to address the long-term future of constitutional arrangements in the UK.

Almost unseen, this Secretary of State for Wales has presided over the sidelining of Welsh MPs on issues that directly affect the people whom we represent. Representatives are elected from north Wales to play a part in the governance of foundation hospitals in England but, under the EVEL proposals, MPs from Wales will be excluded from stages of legislation affecting those hospitals. The reality is that the Conservative position is illogical and does not in any way reflect the position on the ground. Moreover, the Conservatives have refused to apply the EVEL principles to Wales. There are no Welsh votes for Welsh laws and no Scots votes for Scots laws. Even though there are devolved institutions, some issues that directly affect Wales are not devolved to the National Assembly. S4C is one example. Issues relating to S4C, which is precious to Wales, could be decided by a majority of English MPs, overriding the views of Welsh MPs. The rules for English MPs do not apply to Welsh MPs.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Going back to the hon. Gentleman’s point about a constitutional convention, does he support the comments of the former right hon. Member for Neath, who now sits in the other place? He made the case for a confederal model, whereby the historic nations would decide what powers they wanted to be held in their part of the state and then an agreement would be made at the UK level, as opposed to the current model, whereby the UK decides what is devolved down to the historic nations.

[Ian C. Lucas]

I do not think that I can deal with the constitutional question in response to an intervention, but I welcome any consideration or detailed assessment of the constitution as a whole. I want to get away from the principle of trying to deal with such issues piecemeal across the United Kingdom, which is a massive mistake.

[Alun Cairns]

rose—

[Ian C. Lucas]

I am not going to give way to those on the Front Bench, because they have had far too many interventions.

[Craig Williams]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way to me?

[Ian C. Lucas]

I will give way to the Back Bencher opposite.

[Craig Williams]

The hon. Gentleman touched on S4C. Does he welcome the fantastic announcement that its budget will be protected by this Parliament and this Government?

[Ian C. Lucas]

I do welcome that. I tabled parliamentary questions on that very issue earlier this week. I am pleased that Welsh MPs across the Chamber have had a strong voice in the matter.

[Hywel Williams]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Ian C. Lucas]

I will make a little progress, because I am conscious that others want to speak.

I want to turn to the Chairman of the Welsh Affairs Committee’s comments. The EVEL proposals, appalling as they are, actually contain a kernel of something that could take constitutional considerations further. In general, I welcome the introduction of geographical Committees in the UK Parliament, because the public do not want more politicians. At the heart of Tony Blair’s defeat on his proposals for a north-east regional assembly was the powerful image of such an institution being a white elephant. Basically, for the general public it was unacceptable to have yet more politicians—the very problem that the hon. Member for Monmouth mentioned earlier. The creation of an English Grand Committee made up of MPs who are already elected creates a body capable of scrutiny with no additional costly elected members. It is a possible model for the scrutiny of legislation and budgets not only in England but throughout the UK.

As an MP from Wales, I am conscious of the differentiation of roles created by the devolution settlement across the UK. Some political roles are devolved to the Welsh Government, the most prominent of which is health, yet my constituents have a limited appreciation of the level of government that deals with their issues. Frankly, they do not care. They think that if they have a problem that is of sufficient importance for them to go to their MP about it, he should deal with it. That view extends not only to matters devolved to the Welsh Government. Barely a weekly surgery goes by without an issue being brought to me that is the responsibility of the local council. I deal with such issues, and I know that my parliamentary colleagues in England do exactly the same, yet the parliamentary process makes little concession to either the devolution settlement or the developed role of MPs as constituency advocates.

Politicians at different levels of governance operate as if they were on different floors of an office block that governs: local government on the ground floor; devolved jurisdictions, Members of the Scottish Parliament, Assembly Members or Members of the Legislative Assembly on the second floor; Members of Parliament on the third floor; and Members of the European Parliament on the floor above them. The time is right, in appropriate cases, to put those representatives on the same floor to scrutinise together in the interests of our constituents. The EVEL proposals, which suggest the creation of a separate parliamentary Committee to deal with appropriate legislation on a geographical basis, give an indication of how to achieve that.

For many years, as an MP from Wales I have advocated MPs and AMs working together on joint Committees for the benefit of our constituents. That should be considered further in the draft Bill. The health issues I have set out are examples of issues that need joint work to reflect the reality of NHS provision to my constituents. There has been great resistance to this proposal. Some see it as undermining the principle of devolution, but devolution is not separatism. It is incumbent on those of us who want devolution to work to work together, not separately, to make it work in practice. We must leave separatism to the nationalists.

Parliament needs to recognise in its procedures the role of devolved institutions by incorporating them into the scrutiny process. It must also recognise that, in England, that will mean MPs working in joint Committees with local government. Such Committees must, of necessity, be constituted on a regional basis. Just as the Conservatives propose creating a Committee of MPs in England in their EVEL proposals, Labour should go one step further and create Committees of MPs on a regional basis within England to scrutinise matters relating to that region. In England, that will mean extending Committee membership to local government leaders. In Wales and Scotland, it will mean Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly Committees admitting MPs, and parliamentary Committees admitting MSPs and AMs, as well as, where appropriate, local government leaders.

In appropriate cases, such Committees could extend across national boundaries, so that they could deal with issues that transcend boundaries, reflecting the reality of the situation on the ground for, for example, constituents in the part of the cross-border region of England and Wales that I represent. Such Committees would more accurately reflect the present governance of the UK. Governance is a process that integrates different levels of government, and such Committees would do the same.

[Mr David Jones]

I have a great deal of sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman is suggesting. Does he agree that the issue is not simply one for parliamentarians but for Government Ministers—the Executive—as well? There should be far more discussion of the alignment of policies between Governments.

[Ian C. Lucas]

I agree with that entirely. I do not pretend that what I have said this morning is a solution, but it is a starting point for a debate. The right hon. Gentleman knows that there is an appetite for cross-border working in Parliament, as shown by the recent establishment of the all-party parliamentary group for the Mersey-Dee and north Wales region.

The concept of regional representation in Government and in Parliament is neither novel nor past. As Prime Minister, Gordon Brown introduced regional Ministers. They were abolished by the coalition Government in 2010, but they were very effective. I dealt with them when I was a Minister in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. The Conservative Government have now created a Minister for the northern powerhouse. We should have a Committee to hold such people to account. Bit by bit, the Government are adopting the model through their proposals for regional devolution. To develop regional institutions within Government, we need the parliamentary equivalents. To work with other organisations, we need local government and devolved institutions to take matters forward. The move should be against the separatism that the Government have promulgated through EVEL. We should establish a Committee of elected representatives—MPs, AMs and councillors—who can hold the institutions of Government to account and more properly reflect the situation on the ground.

The tragedy of far too much of the constitutional reform since 1999 is that it has tinkered in a piecemeal way with our constitution, and the draft Bill is another example. Unfortunately, the Government are unlikely any time soon to consider an overall constitutional convention, which is what we need. Those of us who dearly love the United Kingdom need to agree to create such a convention to regularise the rules that we have. Until that happens, the proposal for a regional Committee, which can, if necessary, transcend boundaries, is a good way of taking forward a more accountable and effective governance structure that would address the needs of the people whom we represent.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. We on the Government Benches understand that work is the best route out of poverty. I am very pleased that in Wales the number of children growing up in a home where no parent works has halved, falling by 62,000 since 2010. I am clear that if we are to transform life chances, we have to go much deeper and address the root causes of worklessness, as my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister pointed out in his speech on Monday.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Four years ago, my constituent Margaret Foster was sacked from Remploy by this Prime Minister. Yesterday, I raised her case in a debate. Today, I have been approached by local employers offering her work. Why are the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister presiding over a system to support disabled workers so useless that it takes a Member of Parliament raising the issue in Parliament for anything to happen?

[Stephen Crabb]

The proportion of disabled people in Wales in work has increased under this Government. There was a time when Labour Members understood and talked the language of welfare reform. Maybe when they have stopped kicking lumps out of each other they will get back to addressing it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 16th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I think the hon. Gentleman is referring to reports about the Office for National Statistics. Sir Charlie Bean’s review is a wide-ranging report, independent of Government, into how to address future challenges to the measurement and production of economic statistics. He referred specifically to the support given by the Wales Office. I am sure that my predecessors would like me to highlight that the number of civil servants employed across the UK has fallen by 17% but in Wales by only 13%. That is a credit to my predecessors.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is talking about shifting jobs from Wrexham in north Wales to Cardiff. Will the Minister meet me to ensure that north Wales has civil service jobs and that the Tories in Wales do not sell north Wales down the river again?

[Alun Cairns]

I do not accept the premise of the question. The Government’s commitment to north Wales is significant. We are looking at the improvement of the railway line across north Wales, and the hon. Gentleman will be more than aware of the impact that the prison will have in north Wales. Of course we want to ensure that all the jobs are as efficient as possible. I will happily write to the hon. Gentleman on the detail of the point that he has brought to the attention of the House.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 17th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

I am surprised to hear that question from the hon. Gentleman. After all, it was his party that left Wales the poorest part of the United Kingdom. Since then, it has become the fastest-growing part of the United Kingdom, and the UK is the fastest-growing nation in the G7. He ought to welcome that, along with the fact that wages and gross domestic household income are growing faster in Wales than in any other part of the United Kingdom. However, we will further improve both productivity and wealth through significant infrastructure spending.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

9. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Transport on cross-border road links between Wales and England.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

I met the Department for Transport and Highways England last week to express my concern about the delays to the A483/A55 roadworks at the Posthouse roundabout. The Government have invested £6 million in that complex scheme, which will deliver significant benefits to road users on both sides of the border. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman supports such investment to improve passenger journeys, tackle congestion and clear the way for business investment in the cross-border region.

[Ian C. Lucas]

But the Government told me in February that the work would be completed by April, by the time of the general election. That has not happened, and the Wales Office did nothing before then to get this work done. Will the Minister assure me that it will completed by 28 June?

[Alun Cairns]

Although the hon. Gentleman called for an improvement in the network for many years, his party did nothing in government to bring that improvement about. It was only when my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced the scheme as part of the pinch point programme in 2011 that action was taken to improve the network. We are now working closely with the Department for Transport.

The hon. Gentleman must be the only Member who calls for roadworks and then complains when that construction is under way.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. We want the greatest flexibility in the NHS work force across the whole United Kingdom. The regulatory burden and bureaucracy involved is unacceptable, and the Department of Health and Welsh Government are working together with the support of the Wales Office to put that right.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Many health services for my constituents are delivered from England by specialist hospitals. Why do the Secretary of State and the Minister want to take away the voice of MPs from Wales to speak up on behalf of their constituents and look after their interests?

[Alun Cairns]

I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s premise. Welsh MPs will still be here fighting for their constituents and ensuring the best care for them, be it on the Welsh or English side of the border. That is what we will be elected for.