Employment in Wales

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Westminster Hall

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

Thank you for that great introduction, Mr Hollobone. Bore da! Sut wyt ti y bore ’ma?

I will speak primarily about my constituency and north Wales, but I am sure that there will be interventions and speeches by Members from elsewhere in Wales—although not from any Government Members, because no Conservative or Liberal Democrat Back Benchers are present—[Interruption.] No, here they come. Better late than never.

I will focus on five areas: the quality of jobs in the UK and Wales; the impact of cuts on jobs and employment in Wales—not only the current cuts, but the proposed future ones highlighted by the Chancellor in his autumn statement; the rebalancing of a local economy highly dependent on the public sector; the possible impact if we pulled out of the European Union on job prospects in north Wales especially; and the impact of capital projects on jobs.

On the face of it, employment in north Wales seems healthy, but scratch below the surface and we see a different picture. Wages in the UK have decreased by £1,600 per annum over the past five years. There has been a shift from secure, long-term employment to short-term, zero-hours, part-time working.

Two years ago, the national press highlighted Denbighshire as having the highest level of zero-hours contracts in the UK, although the local authority disputed the figures. Nevertheless, the whole of the UK has suffered from the steep rise in the use of zero-hours contracts. The public sector has had a pay freeze at only 1%, which in real terms amounts to a cut, while the impact on ordinary workers of the casualised employment promoted by the Government is stark. Families cannot plan for their summer holidays, as they might usually do in January, because people do not know whether they will still be in employment in six months’ time.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Is my hon. Friend aware that Office for National Statistics figures indicate that, in the past year alone in Wrexham, the median wage fell by 7.4%? That is the impact of the Government’s policies on individuals in my constituency.

[Chris Ruane]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention —the freeze or cut in the public sector has been bad for workers and families in my constituency as well. Parents cannot even plan to pick up their children the following day or week because of zero-hours contracts, which bring no stability or security. Families do not even want to go in for mortgages, because they are not sure about employment in a year’s time, so they are forced to stay in private rented accommodation.

The net impact on families is a hit on their well-being and mental health, which is so unnecessary. Nor is it only the private sector that is extending the use of zero-hours contracts; the public sector is increasingly being hollowed out by the outsourcing of functions that councils used to do in-house to the private sector, the past masters in the use of zero-hours contracts. At the same time, Tory MPs and the press vilify public sector workers for having “gold-plated pensions”, saying they are mollycoddled and cosseted.

The real situation could not be further from the truth. I speak for the 4,500 public sector workers who work for Denbighshire county council and the 4,500 who work for ysbyty Glan Clwyd—teachers, nurses, doctors, social workers, care workers, all doing their best in difficult times. Workers in secure jobs are being forced to become self-employed and to take a hit on their hard-won rights on holiday pay, sick pay, redundancy, and maternity and paternity pay. The rise in the number of self-employed has not resulted in an army of Richard Bransons, Alan Sugars or Nicola Horlicks; it has resulted in workers being thrown from security into insecurity.

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[Chris Ruane]

Absolutely. I agree with my hon. Friend entirely, and the point has been ably illustrated by my hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami). When a person has invested tens of thousands of pounds in installing disability access into their council house, where is the sense in forcing them out of it into private sector accommodation, which must then have disability access added? The previous place will not necessarily be used by a disabled person. It makes absolutely no sense.

We have reached the point where even the CBI is telling the Government that they have got it wrong and that workers need a decent wage and job security. John Cridland said in The Observer on Sunday:

“I am not sure this would have been natural territory for us five years ago.

I have been banging on for a year about higher earnings growth. I have been doing that in part because it is a sensible part of economic rebalancing to have sustainable consumption. It is important that low-paid workers are able to play their part as active consumers”.

He also talked about

“inequality having reached a point where it is not acceptable from a moral point of view and that, in a commercial sense, it’s bad for business.”

That is the head of the CBI. He did not think that five years ago, when Labour was in power; he thinks it now, at the end of five years of Tory rule. The loss of £1,600 from each worker’s pocket has had a negative impact on consumption, demand and profits. That comes from the top.

[Ian Lucas]

Another crucial impact has been from the Tory VAT increase, which takes money directly out of consumers’ pockets—[Interruption.] I am sorry that the Government Members are so upset by my saying that, but my constituents are upset about money out of their pockets going straight to the Treasury rather than our high streets.

[Chris Ruane]

Absolutely. When Labour reduced VAT, that had a positive effect. All the economic indicators from 2008 to 2010 were going upwards; in June 2010, they started to go down. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) might laugh, but he does not know his economics.

John Cridland added:

“I am particularly interested in the escalator that takes people who are unemployed or low-paid on to better-paid work. Something has gone wrong with it. There are two or three missing steps in the middle.”

The missing steps to which he refers will not be provided by zero-hours contracts, the minimum wage with no prospect of progression and cutbacks in skills and training.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 21st January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

My hon. Friend is right to highlight the significant infrastructure investment being made across the whole of the UK, but of course it is important that north Wales links into the rest of the UK. The fact that Crewe is the HS2 hub is important, and I look forward to hosting a transport summit in the next week or so to discuss how we best link north Wales with the rest of the UK.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

13. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Transport on investment in rail in north Wales. Will the Minister confirm that the UK Government have diverted funding previously allocated for the phase 1 and phase 2 modular rail signalling upgrade in north Wales to support investment in rail projects in south Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

I can categorically reject that. The UK Government are making significant investment in north Wales, at the Halton curve, and in south Wales, in the electrification of the main line right through to Swansea and in the valley lines and Vale of Glamorgan line services. I am proud of our record of electrifying railways in Wales. The previous Administration left us as one of the three nations across Europe without any electrified rail; Wales, sadly, was left with Albania and Moldova, and this Government are changing that.

Wales Bill

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 10th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Owen Smith]

The Secretary of State makes my point for me because I do not for a minute subscribe to the notion that Wales has money handed down to it from Westminster. That money reflects the taxes paid by Welsh people, and more importantly, in a Union that is meant to be about our ability to share resources, pool risk and redistribute from wealthier to less wealthy parts, it reflects the morality and values of our country. Unfortunately, that morality and that set of values are being undermined by the Secretary of State’s description of the Union as one in which one part is a supplicant and another is handing down money.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that we need to be wary of the politics of the hospital pass in Wales? I am always suspicious of Tories bearing gifts, to mix my metaphors, and I do not trust the Conservative party to defend the interests of my constituents.

[Owen Smith]

Nor do I and, more importantly, nor do the people of Wales—that is why they do not elect Tories in Wales. The very least we owe the Welsh people is that we consider extremely carefully the likely impact of these radical changes to such a cornerstone of the redistributive Union as taxation. They will have an impact on the potential prosperity and well-being of the Welsh people, which is why, although Labour will not oppose the Lords amendments, as we have not opposed the Bill at other stages, we will continue to be clear that we want far more explanation from the Government about how and why they think the powers in question might be deployed in Wales, and what the benefits will be for the Welsh people.

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[Owen Smith]

No, it is project reasoned analysis of the numbers, and that project shows clearly a £66 billion shortfall over the past five years and a projected further shortfall across the UK over the next five years. We will see a worse performance in terms of corporate and income tax receipts across the UK as a result of the low- wage, deeply insecure, second-rate economy that the Tory Government are building. Wales has been particularly ill served by what has happened because of the additional fragilities of our economy due to our industrial heritage and the preponderance of low-wage jobs in Wales.

The reality is that—[Interruption.] The Secretary of State shakes his head, but he should think about this. He said earlier that the indexed method cited in Holtham means that Wales would effectively be incentivised to grow its tax base at a faster rate than England’s to enjoy uplifts under these powers. The truth is that over the past five years the Welsh tax base has declined at a faster rate than that of England, as the figure is 4.8% in Wales whereas the UK average is 4.2%. That means that Wales would have been worse off under the indexation had the provisions applied in the last five years, which is a further illustration of the need for the Government to undertake some proper, detailed analysis to let the Welsh people know whether we would be better or worse off.

[Ian Lucas]

In support of that point, is my hon. Friend aware that in Wrexham median wages fell by 7.4% in the last year under this Government? What encouragement does that give for increasing the tax base?

[Owen Smith]

My hon. Friend reinforces my point. We know that the Welsh economy has historic weaknesses because of the decline in heavy industry, and its distance from London and the powerhouse of the south-east. Those are well understood, but they are not reflected in the debate that we are having, which is largely politically motivated.

Some in Wales argue that we do not need a referendum to decide this matter, but we think that the Welsh people should have a debate and ultimately take the decision on what would be a radical change. The debate cannot be driven by the Tory party’s desire to insulate itself against the charge that it has reduced Welsh budgets by 10%, which it has; or by the need to support the Tory objective of reducing public spending to levels we have not seen since the 1930s, as was manifest last week; or even by the wish to sustain a partisan argument of English votes for English laws. All three of those rationales feature as part of the Government’s motivation for this debate, and we are disappointed that they have not provided any real response to these questions throughout the passage of the Bill.

It will now be for the Welsh Labour Government to consider what is best for the Welsh people. I have no doubt that they will do so using Welsh Labour values and thinking about the benefits for the Welsh people, as well as about how we deliver equality and improvements to the lot of working people across the UK.

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[Jonathan Edwards]

I stand corrected. To be fair to the hon. Gentleman, he has voted with us several times and broken his party Whip.

The lockstep, of course, was a handcuff measure that would have made the powers in the Bill unusable—the only plus side was the extra borrowing capacity it would have given to the Welsh Government—and removing it creates greater flexibility, which is obviously to be welcomed. When we were debating the Bill in the Commons, however, I warned the Government that events in Scotland would supersede it, and that has indeed been the case. The Union survived by a thread, and even then only following the famous vow promising home rule, devolution max or something as close to federalism as possible. In that regard, the Smith commission was extremely disappointing.

Westminster has one chance left to save the Union, or the British state as it is currently constituted, but the Smith commission is playing into the hands of pro-independence campaigners in Scotland. It nowhere near delivers the powers promised in the vow, but it is far in advance of what the UK Government are offering to Wales in the Bill. The signature policy of the Smith commission is 100% income tax devolution and the ability of the Scottish Executive to set as many bands as they want at whatever level they want. Indeed, my party put forward such an amendment during proceedings on the Wales Bill in the spring.

[Ian Lucas]

If the Smith commission is not in accordance with the vow that was given, why did the Scottish National party agree to it?

[Jonathan Edwards]

The commission’s remit is not one of its own choosing, but the SNP decided to act in the best interests of the country and move the process forward. Making out that the Smith commission proposals are what were included in the vow is not right. It was essentially home rule or devolution max, and on any definition of devo max, it means the full devolution of all powers apart from defence, foreign affairs, the monarchy and military policy. That is not included in the Smith commission proposals, which were less significant than what was promised to the people of Scotland on the eve of the referendum.

As I was saying, the Smith commission is vastly more progressive in its trajectory of travel, offering 100% of income tax in comparison with the Wales Bill offer of only a paltry income tax sharing arrangement—and even then, only following a referendum many years down the line.

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[Stephen Crabb]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We end the parliamentary passage of the Bill exactly as we began it, with Labour trying to place even more hurdles in the way of devolving a portion of income tax. You would have to be Colin Jackson to clear all the hurdles that the Opposition are trying to set up.

[Ian Lucas]

Will the Minister give way?

[Stephen Crabb]

I will not, because there is another group of Lords amendments to discuss.

I should like to finish by paying particular tribute to the contribution made by my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies). He set out some powerful arguments, and has done so from a position of real credibility, having been an Assembly Member. He has been ahead of the curve on many occasions in recognising the strategic direction that Welsh devolution needs to go in and the benefits that can be accrued to Wales by taking sensible, moderate and pragmatic steps forward. On that note, I shall bring my remarks to a close.

Lords amendment 1 agreed to, with Commons financial privilege waived.

Lords amendments 2 to 13 and 17 agreed to, with Commons financial privilege waived.



Clause 13

Proposal for referendum by Assembly

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. There are frequency issues on those lines, but he must recognise that decisions on the frequency of services will need to be taken by Welsh Ministers, because we are devolving the franchise to the Welsh Government as part of the electrification deal.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Part of the valleys line package is a contribution by the UK Government to the capital costs involved. In principle, are the UK Government prepared to support capital investment in railways in north Wales?

[Stephen Crabb]

I spent two days in north Wales meeting business leaders and local authorities to talk about how we can drive up the quality of infrastructure in north Wales, and I can tell the hon. Gentleman that we have a long-term plan that will deliver the improvements for infrastructure in south Wales and north Wales too. [Interruption.]

Government Policies (Wales)

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 26th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way—

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Your right hon. Friend.

[Chris Ruane]

I thank my right hon. Friend. [Interruption.] If Labour had truly wanted to dominate Wales in 1997, when we had a majority of 180, would we not have introduced first past the post, rather than proportional representation?

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[Owen Smith]

The food banks are to be applauded, but the fact that they are required should shame us all, particularly the Government who are presiding over the explosion in their usage. It is very clear why they are required: the Trussell Trust has made it plain that the vast majority of people who use them do so because their benefits have been changed or stopped.

The emerging trend—at 22%, up from 15% last year—is for the recipients of food parcels to be in work. They are earning a living, but it is insufficient to pay for something as fundamental as food. That should surprise none of us, because we now know that, under this Tory Government, 13 million people in Britain are in poverty while in work. They are earning their poverty in this country, and that scandal and disgrace should shame us all.

[Ian Lucas]

Is my hon. Friend aware that mean average earnings in Wrexham have declined by 7.4% in the past year? That is imposing a huge financial burden on my constituents, and driving the local economy down in a spiral.

[Owen Smith]

I am aware of that, but I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding the House about it. Right across Wales, wage inflation last year was just 0.6%, while price inflation was 2.2%. That real-terms fall in people’s wages comes on top of the fact that wages in Wales are already the lowest in Britain. Average weekly earnings in Wales are now just £473.40, compared with the UK average of £518. One in four workers in Wales earns below the living wage, which should shock the House in the 21st century.

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[Stephen Crabb]

There is truth in what the hon. Gentleman says. It is an excellent example of European industrial co-operation, but he knows better than anyone else here that at the heart of the success of Airbus in his north Wales constituency are the excellent skills and motivation of the workers, many of whom are in his constituency, but also in other constituencies.

North Wales is at the heart of Wales’s economic growth, and I look forward to seeing more excellent examples of enterprise in Wales’s very own northern powerhouse tomorrow, when I embark on a two-day business tour there. The Labour party here in London at times seems to resist these developments.

[Ian Lucas]

If the right hon. Gentleman is visiting north Wales, perhaps he will visit the Wrexham area. I hope he will accept that many of our exporting giants in north-east Wales, such as Kellogg’s and Toyota, export to European markets, and that the international investors who decide where to invest and create new jobs are frightened off by his Prime Minister’s indecision and this Government’s lack of clarity.

[Stephen Crabb]

Business is not being scared off: quite the opposite. We recognise that the single European market is an enormous strategic prize for the UK, but in fact a greater proportion of Welsh exports go to countries outside the EU than to those inside it, and our trade with countries outside the EU is growing at a faster rate, so the hon. Gentleman should not be so insular and should look at the worldwide dimension, rather than just the European one.

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[Stephen Crabb]

I have a huge amount of sympathy for the hon. Gentleman’s point. Businesses in north Wales make that point to me consistently, and I expect to hear more on that while I am in Wales over the next 48 hours. The Under-Secretary of State for Wales, my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) will shortly be hosting a transport summit in north Wales in order to identify the strategic infrastructure projects that we need to focus on if we are to secure the long-term economic success of the area.

I will bring my remarks to a close shortly. I could have gone on to talk about investment in digital infrastructure and the support that we are giving the Welsh Government for the broadband project. I could also have mentioned the investment in the new prison in Wrexham, which is a really strategic investment for north Wales, along with the many other examples of how this Government are doing everything possible to create the right framework and conditions for Welsh business to succeed, and to create the jobs and wages that we all want to see for all our constituents.

I am very proud of the transformative projects that this Government have achieved in Wales. I am also proud of the people in Wales who are making those policies work to their full effect. I am proud that we have a growing private sector with more people in work and more businesses. I am just dismayed at times that the Opposition cannot bring themselves to welcome that, bang the drum and support it. We have no problem with rolling up our sleeves and working with the Welsh Government in the interests of Wales. Why does the Welsh Labour party at this end of the M4 have a mental and political block that prevents it from being a constructive Opposition in the interests of Wales?

[Ian Lucas]

As someone who has run a small business in Wales, I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he understands that his Government’s policies are doing the economy down. His Government are suppressing demand in the local economy by cutting wages, increasing taxes such as VAT, and preventing people from having enough money to spend to help local business. Does he not understand basic economics?

[Stephen Crabb]

What I do understand is the way unemployment has been falling in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. He should be championing the fact that youth unemployment has fallen by 49% in the past four and a half years. That is more lads and more girls in his constituency getting their first jobs and a foot on the jobs ladder. That is what it is all about.

Last Friday, when Opposition Members were working out what clever things they were going to say in this debate and trying to find new ways to talk down the Welsh economy, what were we doing? I will tell them where I was last Friday: I was down in Newport, standing shoulder to shoulder with the UK Prime Minister and the Welsh Labour First Minister. We were all banging the drum for more investment in Wales, banging the drum for more jobs for Wales, together sending a united, strong, positive message from Wales that Wales is coming back. We all need to work together to see that continue.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

General Dynamics is another superb Wales-based company that I have had the pleasure and privilege of visiting in recent weeks. I am very happy to join the hon. Gentleman in paying tribute to whoever was responsible for securing the inward investment.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

When Robin Southwell, the chief executive of EADS, which owns Airbus, addressed the Labour party conference this year, he stressed the importance, from Airbus’s point of view, of Britain remaining a member of the European Union. Does the Secretary of State agree on the importance of that, or does he know better?

[Stephen Crabb]

Being part of Europe is important for Wales-based manufacturers—there is no question about that—but when I talk to businesses all across Wales, they also tell me that our current membership of the European Union imposes burdens and costs. That is why they support the Prime Minister’s strategy to renegotiate our membership with the European Union and get a better deal for Welsh and UK business.

Wales Bill

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Monday 31st March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Owen Smith]

My hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda made Labour’s position clear. We are opposed to the gerrymandering shift from four years to five years to maximise the amount of time the coalition can hang on to power. However, we accept that the First Minister of Wales and the Welsh Government would like to see the term extended to guarantee, as the Secretary of State put it, that there will not be a clash between elections in Wales and Westminster. In explaining Labour’s position, my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda is entirely right. We still feel that four years is preferable, and that five is far too long and diminishes accountability. That said, we will accept this shift and we will support this aspect of the Bill.

On double-jobbing, the third aspect of the electoral arrangements, Labour has always been clear. It has always had an internal party position whereby it does not support people having dual mandates, standing for election and holding office in the Assembly and in Westminster. We are therefore pleased that the Government are moving into line with Labour on this and we will support this aspect of the Bill.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

I am interested in my hon. Friend’s observation on double-jobbing. Does he agree that it is inappropriate for Assembly Members to stand as prospective parliamentary candidates while, at the same time, serving as AMs? In particular, is it not inappropriate for them to open up constituency offices in the seats that they are fighting? Will he support an amendment to prevent AMs from standing as prospective parliamentary candidates?

[Owen Smith]

I will have to look carefully at my hon. Friend’s proposal and take it into consideration. I would not want to discourage Members from moving back and forth between the Assembly and Westminster, which I think is a positive state of affairs that should be encouraged, but I note the point he makes so eloquently.

Elections (National Assembly for Wales)

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Westminster Hall

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

We have all gone through the process of the Boundary Commission inquiry into parliamentary boundaries. Does my right hon. Friend find it extraordinary that this proposal was made after all those hearings had ended, and that the Assembly boundaries were not part of that process? Would it have been better for the issue to have been put forward for consideration at that initial stage?

[Paul Murphy]

Of course it would. The reason why it was not is that the system is entirely partisan.

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[Paul Murphy]

In which case someone is telling untruths. The reality is that the former Presiding Officer, Lord Elis-Thomas, confirms that he was told exactly the same thing as the First Minister. Whom are we to believe? If there are such vast differences of opinion on this matter, the Government should rethink their whole strategy on the Green Paper.

[Ian Lucas]

The intervention from the Minister is very significant, because when I put this question specifically to the Secretary of State last week, she said that she was not aware of the conversation between the Prime Minister and the First Minister. She was very careful in the wording that she used with me. When the Minister winds up the debate, I would like him to be very clear that the Prime Minister is denying that he said to the First Minister that the assurance was given. Will the Minister confirm that, because if that is the case, someone is not telling the truth?

[Paul Murphy]

Of course they are not, and the point about this whole business is that it undermines the trust between the two Governments and the two Parliaments. It cannot be the case that the First Minister did not discuss such an important issue with the Prime Minister when the Prime Minister visited Cardiff—or, indeed, with the Secretary of State. It is so fundamental to the future of the National Assembly and the way in which it is elected that it seems impossible that the issue would not have been discussed, and that assurances would not have been given. I cannot go any further, because on the one hand the Minister says that the assurance was not given, and on the other Lord Elis-Thomas and Carwyn Jones say that it was.

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[Owen Smith]

No, it very clearly does not. The Labour party is here today speaking for Wales, and it is a shame that the hon. Gentleman sought earlier to misrepresent the options in the Green Paper. He suggested that on the table was one option of keeping the status quo, and he knows that that is not straightforwardly true. The option is to keep 40-20, but to shift to a more equalised block of constituencies by changing all the constituencies across Wales, with none of the benefits of retaining coterminosity with the parliamentary boundaries. Even that minor change is so significant that the consent of the National Assembly for Wales, as proxy for the people of Wales, ought to be sought.

The Green Paper is partisan, and also arrogant, in that it completely eschews the tradition of seeking consensus on issues such as constitutional change. When in office, the Labour party sought change through cross-party consensus, including when we proposed changes to the National Assembly for Wales in election manifestos. Amusingly enough, even the Tory party is split on this issue, with the party in Westminster taking one position in documents, and the party in Wales, which is perhaps more in touch with the people of Wales, taking an alternative one.

This is essentially an anti-devolution Green Paper, at odds with the spirit, if not the law, of devolution, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen said. How else can we describe a proposal from a Westminster-based, Tory-led Government for changes to both constituencies and elections to the National Assembly for Wales—a proposal that does not require the consent of the Assembly or the people of Wales? The proposal lacks even a modicum of a mandate, and thus lacks legitimacy, and it should be called out for what it is.

The two options are clear. One is to keep the 40-20 split but change the nature of the boundaries. That has all the disbenefits of reorganisation and none of the benefits of retaining coterminosity. That is why, of course, the Secretary of State is not minded to take the option forward. It is a red herring, designed to deceive. The second option is to shift to 30 on a list and 30 first past the post, increasing the number of Members elected via proportional representation, and decreasing the number directly elected by 10.

No one is suggesting that the nature of the National Assembly should be set in stone or fixed in aspic. Nobody is suggesting that no changes should be proposed and no reforms undertaken. Many people in Wales have lots of ideas—we have heard some suggestions today—about how the National Assembly could be reformed, but few of those people would have the temerity to propose imposing those changes on the National Assembly and the people of Wales without seeking their consent in any meaningful fashion. Fewer still would have the nerve to propose changes without any real evidence or impact assessment of how they will affect voting patterns or election turnout in Wales.

However, our absent Secretary of State proposes to do just that, giving effectively one option, the justification for which is cut and pasted from the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011, with nothing to back up either that or the alternative except the threat that if the option she favours is not adopted, the other even more destructive and disruptive option will be adopted. So much for the respect agenda.

That is happening despite the fact that in the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs last year, when I suggested that the Secretary of State had precisely such a plan in the back of her mind and warned her not to try to gerrymander the map in Wales, she told me that

“before anything goes forward to do with boundaries there would be a loud, long and large period of consultation”.

Consulting on a flimsy Green Paper for a few months over the summer, and treating the National Assembly as a consultee like any other individual or institutional consultee in Wales, while the Secretary of State for Wales refuses to submit to any meaningful scrutiny, does not constitute a loud, long or large consultation to my mind. It is certainly not appropriate to the changes proposed.

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen said, consider the contrast between that and the attitude taken by this Tory Government when they sought to introduce changes to the nature of the voting arrangements for Parliament in Westminster. We had a three-month, significantly contested and well-resourced campaign, followed by a national referendum. I am not necessarily suggesting that that is comparable to the changes proposed in the Green Paper, nor am I necessarily suggesting, as some have done, that the changes necessitate a referendum. However, I put it to Members that at the very least, the consent of the National Assembly must be obtained as a proxy for that of the people of Wales if there is to be no referendum on the changes.

Consider, too, the changes mentioned in this debate in respect of the passage of the Scotland Act 2012. This Government explicitly accepted that the Scottish Parliament should have to consent to the views included in the Bill before it could become law in Scotland. Why does this Welsh Secretary, parachuted into Wales, not feel that a similar job should be done for Wales? Why does she treat the National Assembly for Wales with such disdain when her counterpart in Scotland treated the Scottish Parliament with such respect?

All that prompts the question: why these changes, and why now? Like others here, I cannot but conclude that it is about narrow party self-interest for smaller parties that will benefit from an increased proportion of Members in the National Assembly being elected by proportional representation. To proffer a piece of evidence in support of that contention, think back to 1999, when the Labour party was well supported by the people of Wales and did well at the elections, with the Tories winning just one seat by first past the post. What was the impact for them on the list? Eight seats were delivered. I suggest that a similar position might well come about, with similarly happy benefit for Conservative Members, if the proposals are adopted.

One cannot help thinking that the reason why Plaid Cymru is so quiet on the issue is that the party has cooked up a deal with the Conservative Secretary of State to accept the proposals, because it knows that they will benefit Plaid Cymru, too. The people of Wales will note Plaid Cymru Members’ absence from this debate and understand precisely what they are about.

[Ian Lucas]

On that point, does my hon. Friend not find it extraordinary that Plaid Cymru’s position appears to be that it will consent to the UK Government’s imposition of an electoral system on the Assembly without the Assembly’s consent?

[Owen Smith]

I find it absolutely amazing that Members from the so-called party of Wales should be absent from a debate on electoral arrangements for the people of Wales alone. It is an absolute dereliction of duty for them not to be here engaging in this debate.

Suspicions only harden when we consider the fact that No. 10 has now been dragged into the debate about Wales. That too strikes me as extraordinary. No. 10 is now reduced to the kind of weasel words that we read in the newspaper this morning and heard repeated by the Minister earlier today:

“the Assembly should be fully engaged in the process of deciding its future electoral arrangements”.

What does “fully engaged” mean? Does it mean consulted with, like any Tom, Dick and Harry in Wales, any public body or any MP? I suggest that that is not full engagement. Equally weaselly is the Prime Minister’s letter to the First Minister. He did not say that the changes in Wales should be decided by the people of Wales, but he certainly said, in the words of the First Minister, that the people of Wales should agree with the changes through the National Assembly. That is a bone of contention to which we will need to return later.

In conclusion, I have some questions for the Minister sent here today by his extremely busy Secretary of State to represent the Wales Office. First, what exactly does No. 10 mean by “fully engaging” with the National Assembly? Does it mean anything more than consulting with it, as with others in Wales?

What weight will the consultation accord the views of the National Assembly? To quote the motion passed there by the Tories, Plaid Cymru and Labour, it has already voted to:

“This Assembly recognises that there is absolutely no mandate to change the current electoral system in Wales and that any future change should be put to the people of Wales.”

Given this Government’s complexion, what notice will be paid in particular to the views of the leader of the Welsh Tories, Andrew R.T. Davies? He said:

“I think the Assembly should determine its own boundaries”.

In another interview, he said:

“I am in favour of the status quo”.

Ultimately, what will this Government do if, as seems likely, the National Assembly holds to its course and continues to submit evidence to the consultation saying that it does not believe that there is a mandate for the changes and does not support them? Will the Secretary of State for Wales continue to drive through the changes in the teeth of clear opposition from the National Assembly? If so, something has gone badly awry in the arrangements between Wales and Westminster. The Minister and his Secretary of State would do extremely well to consider the damage that will be done to that relationship if they press ahead. Devolution was intended not to diminish the voice of Wales within the UK, but to amplify it. It was intended to grant greater control over national affairs to the people of Wales via the National Assembly, within the framework of the UK. That framework is delicate, as events in Scotland are displaying only too clearly. All of us who believe that we in the UK are better together should reflect on that, and on the impact on that delicate framework.

Imposing ill-considered and ill-judged changes from Westminster on the National Assembly will only damage it. I am not playing games; I am simply stating the facts. I hope that the Minister has some answers on behalf of his Secretary of State.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I thank the Secretary of State for that, but we do have quite a lot of questions to get through.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

6. What discussions she has had with Welsh Government Ministers and Assembly Members on the Green Paper on future electoral arrangements for the National Assembly for Wales; and if she will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)]

I published the Green Paper on future electoral arrangements on 21 May. I have spoken to all four party leaders in the Assembly, including the First Minister, about the Green Paper.

[Ian Lucas]

The First Minister of Wales says that the Prime Minister said to him that he would not take forward changes to the Assembly voting system without the consent of the Assembly. Will the Secretary of State confirm that that is the UK Government’s position?

[Mrs Gillan]

The hon. Gentleman would have had the opportunity to discuss that at the Welsh Grand Committee on Monday at 11.30 am, but I understand that Labour objected to the relevant motion yesterday. I now know that that is because Labour MPs have a problem getting up in the morning and getting to work by 11.30 on a Monday—[Interruption.] I have therefore decided to cancel the Welsh Grand Committee and Labour now has the opportunity to call a debate in its own time.

The Prime Minister has met the First Minister on a number of occasions and I believe that that matter, among others, was discussed. I am not aware of any firm commitments made by the Prime Minister.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 25th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Gillan]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. As far as enterprise zones are concerned, a great deal depends on what the Labour Welsh Government will do, because we have capital allowances for only one enterprise zone, which is already in Deeside. The enterprise zone to which he refers will be crucial to the UK and will secure work on the next generation of aircraft, because some 27,000 large aircraft, worth $3 trillion, will be needed over the next 20 years, around 7,000 new helicopters will be required within the next decade and there is a huge potential future market in unmanned air vehicles, and I want us to benefit from that demand in the aerospace business in Wales.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Is it not the case that the success of the UK aerospace industry is due to government and industry working together—[Interruption]—and that saying that business succeeds because government gets out of the way is arrant nonsense?

[Mrs Gillan]

Over this noise, Mr Speaker, I think the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that government should get out of the way of business. Indeed, that is exactly what this Government are doing, with the red tape challenge, by reducing the bureaucracy that the previous Labour Government imposed on our industries, and by reducing the rate of corporation tax so that our business environment can be one of the most competitive in the G20.