Draft Wales Bill (Morning sitting)

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the matter of the draft Wales Bill.

May I start by welcoming you to the Chair, Mr Owen? It is a particular pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. In the past 18 months, while I have been Secretary of State, I have tried not to burden colleagues with too many of these meetings, after taking soundings from Members from Welsh constituencies. We had organised a meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee for 1 July, with the aim of discussing the Queen’s Speech and the Budget statement together, but at the request of the then shadow Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. Member for Pontypridd, that meeting was cancelled.

I am glad we now finally have a chance to meet and to discuss the Bill. Today is an opportunity to update Members on the progress of the draft Wales Bill and for right hon. and hon. Members to make their views known; I look forward to hearing them. The draft Wales Bill is, of course, still undergoing pre-legislative scrutiny by the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, ably chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth, and we await the Committee’s report with interest.

Before we get into the real meat of the Bill, I will take a step back to remind Members of what we are doing with the Bill and how we got to this point. It is fair to say that a number of Members—particularly Government Members, myself included—were not initially natural devolutionists, but once it became clear that that was what the people of Wales wanted, we were determined to make Welsh devolution work. In 2011, the coalition Government held the referendum whereby full law- making powers were devolved to the Assembly for the first time.

Following that, the then Wales Office Ministers, my right hon. Friends the Members for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) and for Clwyd West, established the Silk Commission to undertake a broad consultation and to make recommendations on the future direction of devolution in Wales. As Members will be aware, the commission’s first report made recommendations about fiscal devolution that we then took forward in the Wales Act 2014. The Silk Commission’s second report looked more widely at the balance of powers between Westminster and Cardiff and made recommendations on a broad range of areas, from the model of the devolution settlement itself all the way through to specific recommendations about new powers that should be devolved from Westminster to Cardiff.

It is important to note that although the Silk Commission included representatives of the four main political parties in Wales, those representatives had no mandate to bind their parties to the recommendations the commission made. That is why, following the Scottish referendum, I decided to take forward what we called the St David’s day process, to identify the recommendations that could command political consensus. The resulting St David’s day document set a clear path for the future of devolution in Wales, and in the Conservative party’s manifesto last year, we committed to implement the St David’s day agreement in full.

All the main political parties in Wales, at Westminster level and Cardiff level, were involved in the St David’s day discussions, and it would be wrong of any of the parties represented on this Committee to seek to distance themselves from that process. The fact that we decided not to implement the Silk Commission’s recommendations to devolve policing and justice was as much to do with the views of the official Opposition as with ours—the Labour party at the time took a very clear view, as did my party, that we would not take forward those recommendations—and the recommendation in the St David’s day package to devolve fracking licensing had much to do with how hard Plaid Cymru pressed for it to be included. The fingerprints of all the main parties in Wales are on the St David’s day document.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I agree fully with the Secretary of State’s point on policing. Can he explain the status of the St David’s day process? Did he see it as determining—defining—what the Bill would be, or was that, as I and my right hon. Friend Elfyn Llwyd recall, a matter of consultation with the Opposition parties and fully owned by the Government who wrote it?

[Stephen Crabb]

Of course we own the Bill that we write. The purpose of being a Government is to write legislation. The hon. Gentleman will recall that what was enumerated in the St David’s day document was a recommendation about a set of powers that all parties agreed on. We were absolutely clear throughout the process and on the day that the Prime Minister and the then Deputy Prime Minister made the announcement in Cardiff that it was entirely up to other parties to go further than the St David’s day recommendations. In fairness to Plaid Cymru, they did that. In fairness to the Liberal Democrats, their manifesto at last year’s general election went further than St David’s day. St David’s day represented a baseline around which the process showed consensus among all parties.

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[Hywel Williams]

A point arose yesterday at the launch of the excellent document, “Challenge and Opportunity: The Draft Wales Bill 2015”, by the Constitution Unit and the Wales Governance Centre, which I recommend to all right hon. and hon. Members. One participant questioned the inclusion of a provision in schedule 1 —new schedule 7A, page 34, section B14(54)(a) and (b), which deals with licensing of the provision of entertainment and late night refreshment. I do not want to trip up the Secretary of State—I am sure he is conversant with the reasoning behind all these inclusions—but can he tell me why that provision is in there?

[The Chair]

Order. Before the Secretary of State responds, interventions should be short. Those intending to speak later are eating into their own time and that of other Members.

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[Stephen Crabb]

The hon. Lady, for whom I have huge respect, is very knowledgeable about legal and constitutional matters. If, through the Select Committee of which she is a member or independently, she would like to provide me with details of what she regards as a distinct jurisdiction, we can measure it against what other people are saying they regard as a distinct jurisdiction.

Part of the problem is that no one knows what “distinct jurisdiction” means. We understand what “separate jurisdiction” means, but people are bandying about this term “distinct jurisdiction” as if it is now the answer, in the same way as people used to say, “We need a reserved powers model; that will sort out Welsh devolution” without thinking of the complexity underneath it. People are now saying “separate jurisdiction” or “distinct jurisdiction” without really having thought through what it means.

[Hywel Williams]

The Secretary of State is being generous with his time. He has conceded that there is a growing body of Welsh law that will need to be responded to and he says he has had discussions with the Lord Chief Justice and the Lord Chancellor. Can he give the Committee an indication of when these considerations will come to fruition, so that we have clarity on the nature of our Welsh law and Welsh jurisdiction, whether distinct, separate or whatever? Does he see this as part of the full Bill when it comes before the House or over the horizon?

[Stephen Crabb]

The hon. Gentleman asks an important question. We are in the early stages of that work and we are having discussions about it with a view to being clear about what distinctive arrangements Wales needs to make sure there is effective delivery of justice in Wales that takes account of the growing body of Welsh law. We will make some announcements about that in due course, but that work does not need to happen within the context of the Bill. It does not need to be put into legislation to give effect to it. A lot of practical work can just be got on with fairly quickly.

Ministerial consent is another controversial area in the Bill that we are looking at again. Let me put on the record some thoughts about it. Much has been said about the consent requirements in the draft Wales Bill. They are intended to provide flexibility for the Assembly to legislate but with a demarcation of responsibility between the Assembly and the UK Government. It is only right that the Minister’s consent is required to amend the functions of reserved bodies that are accountable to UK Ministers, just as it is right that the UK Government seek the Assembly’s consent to make changes to the law in devolved areas.

I am told that when making legislation that changes the responsibilities of UK Ministers or the functions or duties of a reserved body—a public body that is the responsibility of a UK Minister—the Welsh Government should have the ability to do that without the relevant UK Minister in Whitehall being able to have any say on that. To any fair-minded Welsh man or woman, that is not a reasonable proposition, because the United Kingdom Government are responsible for those areas of policy. However, this seems to be emerging as the new consensus in Cardiff Bay. We are told that we need to take away the draft Bill and remove the consenting requirements. The threat is that the Bill will be blocked if there is any attempt to make the Welsh Government more responsible in making changes to things that are the responsibility of UK Ministers. We do not believe that is a credible position.

I know from my discussions with business leaders and others in Wales that there is a large body of pragmatic and reasonable opinion on devolution, which does not endorse the rhetoric and criticism of the Bill that is coming out of Cardiff Bay which says the Welsh Government should be able to change the functions of a UK Minister, and change the duties and functions of a UK public body that is the responsibility of a UK Minister, without any consenting requirement. This is about basic respect for the devolution settlement. It is a key principle of ours that we respect the Welsh Government in recognising the areas for which they are responsible. When we make legislation in this place that touches on devolved areas, there is rightly a process of seeking the consent of the Welsh Government. We believe that the principle should work in reverse. I do not think that is an unreasonable proposition.

We have hit a number of major stumbling blocks with the Bill on the differences of viewpoint between how we see the devolution settlement working and how the Cardiff Bay Welsh Government want it to work. They believe that the draft Bill should give legislative effect to the new consensus that they believe in with the expanded devolution boundary that they believe the Supreme Court has given them with the ability to make law unfettered that affects reserved matters or England without any hurdle or boundary or safeguard around that, or any requirement for consent. That is not something that we can go along with.

I appeal to Members of this place and Assembly Members to try to understand the devolution settlement from the viewpoint of the interests of the UK Government, in the same way as I have spent a lot of time trying to understand the devolution settlement from the perspective of Cardiff Bay and the Assembly,

I am going to wrap up there to allow other Members to speak. We have heard language such as “English veto”. There is nothing in the Bill which provides for an English veto. When the First Minister uses that phrase, he is talking about the UK Government—the UK Parliament. He is saying that all of us sitting here are English—the hon. Member for Newport West is English, and the hon. Member for Llanelli is English, because they are part of the UK Government. Let us be absolutely clear—this goes to the core of my approach to the Wales Bill—Wales has two legitimate Governments: the UK Government, who exist for the benefit of all parts of the United Kingdom, including Wales; and the devolved Welsh Government, who exist to create law in devolved areas. The purpose of the legislation is to create clarity and respect about the roles of those Governments. It is not to delegitimise and push back the role of the UK Government and say that Wales has an elected Government in Cardiff Bay who are the primary legitimate Government for Wales.

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[Nia Griffith]

No; I think I have said enough on this. What we need from the Secretary of State is a solution, a way forward. We need a way to make it possible for the Assembly to legislate in the areas in which it has competence, which people voted for in 2011, not to make it more difficult. If we remember, the Secretary of State said he was going to deliver,

“the most robust and ambitious package of further devolution to Wales in a generation”.

However, it is pretty clear that the consents, the necessity test and the Bill in general would roll back the powers of the Welsh Assembly. The Bill is not robust, ambitious, lasting or clear. In fact, the Secretary of State has failed every one of his own tests. What he has proposed is a second-class settlement, a system that is unduly complex, regressive and unworkable, and we will not support the Bill unless it is radically amended. It is clear that the Secretary of State has badly mismanaged this entire process, including failing miserably to ensure the cross-party consensus that characterised both the Silk and Smith Commissions. In fact, he has not even got consensus within his own party.

[Hywel Williams]

I am listening to the hon. Lady with great interest. She seems to be batting into the Bill very hard indeed and criticising it. In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr I think she repudiated the stance taken by her predecessor. Does she think there is a case to be made for reopening discussions between the parties on what the Bill should be, rather than the dog’s dinner that we have before us?

[Nia Griffith]

I would welcome the opportunity to have another look at how the Bill could work, but what I want to hear from the Secretary of State is a willingness to be more open about that, rather than digging this big trench around himself and saying that he is not going to change this, not going to change that, and not going to change the Bill radically.

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[Ian C. Lucas]

I do welcome that. I tabled parliamentary questions on that very issue earlier this week. I am pleased that Welsh MPs across the Chamber have had a strong voice in the matter.

[Hywel Williams]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Ian C. Lucas]

I will make a little progress, because I am conscious that others want to speak.

I want to turn to the Chairman of the Welsh Affairs Committee’s comments. The EVEL proposals, appalling as they are, actually contain a kernel of something that could take constitutional considerations further. In general, I welcome the introduction of geographical Committees in the UK Parliament, because the public do not want more politicians. At the heart of Tony Blair’s defeat on his proposals for a north-east regional assembly was the powerful image of such an institution being a white elephant. Basically, for the general public it was unacceptable to have yet more politicians—the very problem that the hon. Member for Monmouth mentioned earlier. The creation of an English Grand Committee made up of MPs who are already elected creates a body capable of scrutiny with no additional costly elected members. It is a possible model for the scrutiny of legislation and budgets not only in England but throughout the UK.

As an MP from Wales, I am conscious of the differentiation of roles created by the devolution settlement across the UK. Some political roles are devolved to the Welsh Government, the most prominent of which is health, yet my constituents have a limited appreciation of the level of government that deals with their issues. Frankly, they do not care. They think that if they have a problem that is of sufficient importance for them to go to their MP about it, he should deal with it. That view extends not only to matters devolved to the Welsh Government. Barely a weekly surgery goes by without an issue being brought to me that is the responsibility of the local council. I deal with such issues, and I know that my parliamentary colleagues in England do exactly the same, yet the parliamentary process makes little concession to either the devolution settlement or the developed role of MPs as constituency advocates.

Politicians at different levels of governance operate as if they were on different floors of an office block that governs: local government on the ground floor; devolved jurisdictions, Members of the Scottish Parliament, Assembly Members or Members of the Legislative Assembly on the second floor; Members of Parliament on the third floor; and Members of the European Parliament on the floor above them. The time is right, in appropriate cases, to put those representatives on the same floor to scrutinise together in the interests of our constituents. The EVEL proposals, which suggest the creation of a separate parliamentary Committee to deal with appropriate legislation on a geographical basis, give an indication of how to achieve that.

For many years, as an MP from Wales I have advocated MPs and AMs working together on joint Committees for the benefit of our constituents. That should be considered further in the draft Bill. The health issues I have set out are examples of issues that need joint work to reflect the reality of NHS provision to my constituents. There has been great resistance to this proposal. Some see it as undermining the principle of devolution, but devolution is not separatism. It is incumbent on those of us who want devolution to work to work together, not separately, to make it work in practice. We must leave separatism to the nationalists.

Parliament needs to recognise in its procedures the role of devolved institutions by incorporating them into the scrutiny process. It must also recognise that, in England, that will mean MPs working in joint Committees with local government. Such Committees must, of necessity, be constituted on a regional basis. Just as the Conservatives propose creating a Committee of MPs in England in their EVEL proposals, Labour should go one step further and create Committees of MPs on a regional basis within England to scrutinise matters relating to that region. In England, that will mean extending Committee membership to local government leaders. In Wales and Scotland, it will mean Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly Committees admitting MPs, and parliamentary Committees admitting MSPs and AMs, as well as, where appropriate, local government leaders.

In appropriate cases, such Committees could extend across national boundaries, so that they could deal with issues that transcend boundaries, reflecting the reality of the situation on the ground for, for example, constituents in the part of the cross-border region of England and Wales that I represent. Such Committees would more accurately reflect the present governance of the UK. Governance is a process that integrates different levels of government, and such Committees would do the same.