Living Standards (North Wales)

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2013 Westminster Hall

[Chris Ruane]

It does not make social sense or economic sense. The state will be paying £60 a week rent for many people living in council houses. If such people are moved into houses of multiple occupation in my constituency, the state will be paying £85 a week. The conditions in HMOs are far worse than on council estates.

Some 420,000 households in Wales are living in fuel poverty, 84,000 of them in north Wales alone. Household fuel bills have increased by £300 since the Government have been in power. Those who suffer most are on pre-payment meters. I was brought up in a household with pre-payment meters; we put a pound in the “leccy” if the lights went out. Those people will be paying an extra £50 a year, because they are not on direct debit. Every which way, the poorest are hit the most.

Fuel bills went up by 7% last year. In this current season, the first energy company out of the blocks is going to increase its prices by 8%, at the same time as chief executive officers in energy companies are having golden handshakes of £15 million or £13.5 million.

Under Labour’s home energy efficiency scheme, the energy efficiency of 127,000 households in Wales was improved, cutting down people’s bills and their carbon footprint. The great green hope from the parties in Government was the green deal, What a failure that has been! At the top of the green deal figures for the whole of Wales is Alyn and Deeside, where 19 households have been checked; at number two is Delyn, with 16 households; third is Wrexham, with 13; and at number four is Clwyd West, with 13. In the Prime Minister’s constituency of Witney, six households were assessed for the green deal. This policy was going to rescue those living in fuel poverty, but it has done nothing for them.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will remember that the Arbed scheme—the insulation scheme that he mentioned—was part of a programme from the “One Wales” Government and was the responsibility of, and was launched by, Jocelyn Davies, the then Housing Minister. Does the hon. Gentleman share my disappointment that Labour’s energy price freeze does not extend to coal, liquid petroleum gas and oil? What can he do, in his party, to ensure that it does extend to those?

[Chris Ruane]

Fuel poverty is being looked at. It is on the political agenda because our Labour leader put it there during conference season. Labour is dictating the agenda on living standards. That aspect should be looked into.

I shall now talk about those in work. When Labour came into power, the proudest political moment in my 16 years in Parliament was the night, the day and the day after we introduced the minimum wage. The Conservatives kept us up for about 28 hours. They hated it and said that it would cost 3 million jobs and be devastating for the economy. It did not cost 3 million jobs; it created another 3 million jobs. Their prediction was 6 million jobs out. The minimum wage put a floor in for those who are paid poor wages.

The issue today is zero-hours contracts. I have tabled some 50 questions about those.

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[Stephen Crabb]

I can write to the hon. Gentleman with further details, but we are in close discussion with the Treasury on the implementation of that scheme in Wales. I have personally written to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury about the scheme, and we want as much of rural Wales as possible to benefit.

We are also committed to freezing council tax in England. Let us remind ourselves that council tax more than doubled under the previous Labour Government. The council tax freeze, of course, does not apply to Wales, as it is a devolved matter. We have provided the Welsh Government in Cardiff with both the opportunity and the resources, but they have so far refused a freeze. If Opposition Members are genuinely concerned about standards of living and the financial pressures on families in Wales, they should be rapping hard on the doors of Welsh Ministers in Cardiff, wanting to know why they are not implementing a council tax freeze in the same way that we are doing in England.

There was some discussion of energy prices. Let me put it on the record that I have not heard one thing from an Opposition Member, or even from the Leader of the Opposition, about a commitment to freezing energy prices that has a shred of credibility. When the Leader of the Opposition was Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, energy prices in this country soared. [Hon. Members: “They went down!”] Opposition Members cannot seek continued investment in energy infrastructure to deliver lower prices in future and to keep our lights on, while making irresponsible and crude promises that they can somehow freeze energy prices.

Housing benefit reform and the overall programme of welfare reform have been mentioned on a day when we again see unemployment in Wales fall. Opposition Members cannot be on the side of falling unemployment, while opposing welfare reform. Welfare reform is a vital ingredient in tackling worklessness at source, which is what we are seeing in Wales.

[Hywel Williams]

Will the Minister tell the House what assessment the Government made of the elasticity of the housing market before ending the spare-room subsidy? Will the market be able to respond to the increased demand for one and two-bedroom properties?

[Stephen Crabb]

We have had many opportunities to discuss the availability of certain types of housing in Wales. The housing stock differs between different areas, and I do not deny that shortages exist in certain parts of Wales. That is why we are making more than £7 million available to Welsh local authorities through discretionary housing payments to ease the transition to the implementation of our housing benefit reforms. [Interruption.] Opposition Members may want to chunter and mumble as we discuss such matters, but I am yet to see one of them stand up and give me a credible plan for how they will bring order back to our housing benefit expenditure, while tackling the unfairness of tens of thousands of people in Wales living in overcrowded accommodation or waiting for access to social housing while many people—let me absolutely blunt about it—are able to live in houses with extra space and more rooms than they strictly need.

The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd mentioned food banks and was absolutely incorrect to say that Conservatives have refused to visit them. I regularly visit my local food bank. In fact, I was a trustee of the charity that runs it, so I know exactly what food banks do. I know what they do well and what they do not do so well. From speaking to colleagues right across the House, I know that Conservatives have no fear at all about going to visit food banks. He made the point that Jobcentre Plus has been referring people to food banks since 2011, but what happened before 2011 under the previous Labour Government? They banned jobcentres from advertising the availability of food banks. They tried to cover up the fact that food banks were increasing in number on their watch. They did not want to acknowledge that food banks existed and were growing. We are not taking that approach. We see food banks as a vital part of the social economy at this difficult time, and we are working in close partnership with them.

In conclusion, I have the huge privilege of being able to get out and about around Wales. I see so many good things happening in north Wales. I will say it again for the record that north Wales remains a fantastic place to live, work and invest.

Public Service Pensions Bill

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Monday 22nd April 2013 Commons Chamber

The Government inherited a plethora of public service schemes with different rules and regulations, and have done a very good job of rationalising them. However, if Lords amendments 78 and 79 are not accepted, it will leave the defence police and fire services in the anomalous position of being the only uniformed services that have to work beyond 60.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

The hon. Gentleman is making fine points about the physicality of the job. The Minister said that the terms and conditions of the pensions of MOD firefighters and police are immaterial to their ability to carry out the job. Does the hon. Gentleman agree with me and disagree with the Minister?

[Mr Reid]

I agree that the pension rules are immaterial to their ability to carry out the job. That is the point that I am trying to make. The work of the uniformed services is unique because it involves short bursts of high physical effort and mental alertness. That is what makes these jobs different and why I do not believe it makes sense for them to have to carry on beyond 60.

There should be a simple rule for retirement age. The uniformed services should retire at 60 and other people should retire at the state pension age. If the Lords amendments were accepted, that principle would be implemented. Defence police and firefighters, like other uniformed services, are highly trained and their job puts them in dangerous situations and requires a high degree of fitness.

I hope that the Government will reflect and agree—if not today, then at some point in the future—that people in these occupations can retire at 60.

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Thursday 18th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

It is with pleasure that I introduce my new clause 4 and new schedule 1; I hope to press the new clause to the vote at the appropriate time.

The UK Government’s Commission on Devolution in Wales, headed by Sir Paul Silk, published the first phase of its report in November 2012. This phase concentrated solely on fiscal powers. Here we are, five months later, still waiting for the UK Government response, which was originally said to be due this spring. In a matter of a few weeks, the cricket season will be upon us and it will be summer, yet we are none the wiser about the intentions of the UK Government.

In short, the Silk commission recommended that powers over stamp duty land tax, the aggregates levy, air passenger duty for long haul, landfill tax and business rates be devolved in their entirety and as soon as possible. It also advocated a sharing arrangement for income tax. In addition, it argued—importantly—that should corporation tax be devolved to Northern Ireland, Wales should not be left behind. I reiterate the point that I made on the closing day of the Budget debate—that we are very interested to see the strong lobby, led by the CBI, coming from Northern Ireland. In total, the fiscal powers advocated by Silk for immediate devolution—the minor taxes—together account for about £1.2 billion of the Welsh Government’s budget.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Does my hon. Friend find it strange, as I do, that no one representing the Labour party in Wales is present to back the policy of the Labour Government down in Cardiff?

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am extremely grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention, as we had a debate in the Welsh Grand Committee on this issue, and Labour speaker after Labour speaker lined up to say that they not only were in favour of the Silk recommendations on minor taxes, but wanted them devolved immediately. They went even further, saying that the Finance Bill was the appropriate vehicle for achieving that.

[Jonathan Edwards]

That is the exact point. This was said to be the appropriate legislative vehicle for devolving airport duty to Northern Ireland, and if it is good enough for Northern Ireland, it is certainly good enough for Scotland and Wales.

Needless to say, the proposed powers fell far short of what Plaid Cymru was advocating as a party. We wanted a more comprehensive list of job-creating and economy-boosting powers, including VAT, corporation tax, resource taxes and capital gains tax. In the interest of compromise, however, and not second-guessing Silk, we are happy to proceed as the commission recommended—not least because the fiscal powers recommended by Paul Silk and his team in the commission’s report are desperately needed for the sake of the Welsh economy. The minor tax powers, the income tax sharing arrangement and the borrowing powers that would be triggered as a result would enable us in Wales better to deliver job-creating and economy-boosting measures and policies to help turn around the continuing dire state of the economy.

Yesterday’s unemployment figures showed a small drop in unemployment in Wales, but the number of economically inactive people went up by 7,000. The rate is still 0.4% higher than in the UK, and there are still nearly 50,000 more people unemployed in Wales than there were before the recession began, and another 50,000 more people who are under-employed. That is on top of the extra 50,000 public sector jobs we expect to be lost in the coming years on top of the 24,000 that have already been lost.

Last week’s research by Sheffield Hallam university and the Financial Times, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) referred, highlighted that more than £1 billion is due to be taken out of the Welsh economy over the next year by cuts to social security. This will have a devastating human cost, which is becoming all too clear.

The private sector is already on its knees in Wales due to the depression caused by the disastrous economic policies pursued by both Labour and Conservative Westminster Governments, which have destroyed the productive economies within the British state. It will deteriorate further as money is sucked out of local economies through further austerity. We are yet to see any realistic plan of how jobs and growth will come about in these depressed areas or any effort to counterbalance the austerity cuts, despite the high rhetoric of geographical rebalancing.

There are three important reasons why the Welsh Government should be empowered with fiscal powers as advocated by the Silk commission and as proposed in my new clause. First, it would make the Welsh Government more accountable. Secondly, it would incentivise the Welsh Government to concentrate on developing the economy to raise the necessary revenue to invest in public services. Lastly, an independent fiscal stream would enable the Welsh Government to access the borrowing powers they have agreed with the UK Government.

Labour’s proposals for substantial cuts in Welsh capital spending in the last Budget that it presented before losing office were supported in the Conservative-Liberal Democrat comprehensive spending review in October 2010, which cut the Welsh capital budget by 42%. Announcements in subsequent UK Budgets or autumn statements have meant that the final cut is about 39%. Although that is admittedly a smaller reduction than the one planned by Labour, it represents a huge hit for economic activity in Wales. The devolution of minor taxes and the triggering of borrowing powers would go some way towards filling the gap, enabling the Welsh Government to invest in infrastructure projects and generate economic momentum.

[Hywel Williams]

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way again; he is being very generous. Does he agree that the term “minor taxes” is a misnomer, given that those taxes constitute a key that could unlock substantial moneys which the Welsh Government could invest in dealing with our economic difficulties?

[Jonathan Edwards]

That is exactly the point. We have experienced twin processes in Wales. We have had the Silk commission, but there has also been a bilateral negotiation between the United Kingdom and Welsh Governments. The consequence of that negotiation was that the Welsh Government would be given borrowing powers if it had an independent fiscal stream. That is why my new clause is so vital for the Welsh economy.

In January, the Welsh Grand Committee debated the commission’s part II recommendations. Although there was a difference of views over the proposals for income tax-sharing arrangements, it was broadly accepted on all sides that the minor taxes recommendations should be implemented as soon as possible. I must confess that during that debate I became slightly confused. Unionist politicians were in favour of full devolution of some taxes, but opposed to a sharing arrangement between the UK and Welsh Governments in relation to income tax. My natural conclusion following the debate was that as there was a consensus at least in relation to the minor taxes, we ought to get on with devolving them swiftly rather than waiting for what could be years for a new Government of Wales Act.

The most prominent of the minor taxes is covered by the air passenger duty recommendation. It is difficult for us to table amendments relating to the other minor taxes at this stage because consideration in Committee is in the hands of the usual channels, from which my party is excluded, but we are at least able to consider the devolution of air passenger duty. I suggest that that should serve as a spur for the implementation of the other minor tax powers recommended by the commission.

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[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Gentleman knows the answer, but I shall provide it anyway. As he knows and as we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute, passengers who might go to Belfast have the opportunity to travel to Dublin by car. Clearly, that opportunity does not exist in Scotland.

We are working closely with the Northern Ireland Executive to consider options for rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy, and we are carefully considering the recommendations of the Silk commission in Wales. Any devolution of APD, however, must take into account the broad range of views on this subject. In response to the 2011 consultation on APD, a substantial number of stakeholders raised concerns about devolution complicating the APD system and creating distortions in the markets for flights. This concern was reinforced in a recent report by HMRC suggesting that the devolution of APD could lead to market distortion as a result of passenger redistributions between UK airports, without substantially increasing demand for aviation overall.

In considering whether to devolve APD, hon. Members will surely agree that we must assess the risk of replicating the same problems that Northern Ireland faced from lower aviation taxes in the Republic of Ireland. There is clearly a concern about an immediate cut in APD rates for direct long-haul flights from Wales. The Government therefore believe that the devolution of APD is a subject that requires continued and careful evaluation, if we are to be confident about its potential effects across the country as a whole. In undertaking this evaluation, we should take note of recent data showing that passenger numbers are growing at Scottish airports. Between 2010 and 2011, numbers grew by 5.5% and continued to grow last year as well. In fact, Glasgow airport achieved growth of 4% in 2012, Aberdeen airport recently achieved 24 months of consecutive growth and Edinburgh airport will provide more choice to passengers in 2013 than ever before.

[Hywel Williams]

Will the Minister tell the House what happened to passenger numbers from Cardiff airport over the same period?

[Sajid Javid]

I do not have the numbers to hand for Cardiff airport, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows the answer. If he wants me to find out for him, however, I shall write to him with the numbers, if they are available.

Talking about Wales, we are considering the Silk commission’s recommendations, as I have said, but we must also take note of the concerns of Bristol airport, which has expressed deep concerns to me that devolution to Wales would have a significantly detrimental impact on its business. In presenting his amendments, the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) referred to the report by the CBI in Wales. However, I have an extract from—I believe—the same report he referred to, which says that

“high mobility between Wales and the UK…is a reason for the rate to remain consistent between the countries.”

Our analysis needs to be based on a full examination of the evidence. We will not be rushed or pushed into making premature judgments. On that basis, I ask hon. Members not to press their new clauses.

Briefly, the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) raised the issue of APD rates to the Caribbean. As she rightly said, I recently met a delegation of hon. Members to discuss that important topic. I am the first to accept the valuable contribution that British people of Caribbean heritage make to our country. I have promised to reflect on the important points raised by that delegation and many others that have brought up the same issue.

We have a plan to cut the deficit and we have already cut it by a third. Our country’s credibility comes from delivering that plan. APD revenues make an important contribution to the public finances and this year’s inflation-rate increase is necessary. The extension of APD to business jets makes the tax fairer overall. I therefore urge that both clauses in this group stand part of the Bill and ask hon. Members kindly to consider withdrawing their proposed new clauses.

Food Banks (Wales)

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 12th February 2013 Westminster Hall

[Kevin Brennan]

It is because food banks were such a minuscule feature on the scene compared with what we see today, despite the Prime Minister’s erroneous use of statistics recently at Prime Minister’s Question Time, in an attempt to sidestep his failure to take note of the rise of food banks over a long period.

It is particularly apt to talk about the 1930s because we are reliving that period of austerity economics. The failures of, and false theories behind, austerity economics are being repeated. We might expect that from the Conservatives, but it is staggering that it is being repeated in the coalition by the party of John Maynard Keynes through its approach to the economy.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Will the hon. Gentleman concede that income inequality grew under previous Labour Governments, as it did under previous Conservative Governments?

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Brennan]

I will get a bit further into my stride before I let the hon. Gentleman have another go.

It is no coincidence that the three giants behind the creation of what became known as the welfare state came from Wales: David Lloyd George, Jim Griffiths and Aneurin Bevan. It is particularly ironic that the Government presiding over a policy that is helping to trigger the rapid expansion of food poverty and food charity for the poor are a Government who include members of the successor party to Lloyd George’s Liberals.

[Hywel Williams]

But is it?

[Kevin Brennan]

The hon. Gentleman calls into question whether the Lib Dems are the successor party. That is another debate for another day. Perhaps Lib Dem members of this Government should recall the words of David Lloyd George as we debate food banks and poverty. In presenting his “people’s Budget” 104 years ago, in 1909, he said:

“This…is a war Budget. It is for raising money to wage implacable warfare against poverty...I cannot help hoping and believing that before this generation has passed away, we shall have advanced a great step towards that good time, when poverty, and the wretchedness and human degradation which always follows in its camp, will be as remote to the people of this country as the wolves which once infested its forests.”—[Official Report, 29 April 1909; Vol. 4, c. 548.]

I am afraid that under this Government, the wolves of poverty are back, along with the sharks who prey on the financial misfortunes of the poor with their high-rate loans.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Brennan]

I am still speaking.

The Government are following an austerity economics policy, rather than making the economic choice, as they could have done, to deal with the deficit in a way that would not have led to such poor growth and its consequences.

[Hywel Williams]

The hon. Gentleman may know that nine of the 23 food banks in Wales opened in the past 12 months.

[Kevin Brennan]

The hon. Gentleman has hit the nail on the head. That is what is so unfortunate about the Prime Minister’s attempt to use statistical shenanigans to disguise the fact that the real issue is the sheer number of people who now have to go to food banks. I compare that with the charitable aid that was on offer under the previous Government, and that will always be present in our society, one way or another, which is to be welcomed. It is the scale of what is being done, not what is being done, that is most important.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

It is ironic that we are debating this subject on pancake Tuesday. I am reminded of a song that we used to sing when we were kids, which my grandmother taught my mother. If hon. Members will forgive the Welsh, it went like this:

“Mae mam rhy dlawd i brynu blawd

A’m tad rhy wael i weithio”.

It translates as “My mother is too poor to buy the flour and my father is too ill to work.” Considering the dependence on food banks and the ravages that Atos is wreaking on our constituencies, those are chilling words. I will not say anything melodramatic, either, about Victorian values, but as I was on my way here it occurred to me that the words of that song had a message for us.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) on securing the debate. As he said, there are 23 food banks in Wales, and four of them are in north Wales. They operate in disadvantaged areas, although I am sometimes at a loss to decide which areas of Wales are disadvantaged and which are not, given that disadvantage is so widespread. As I said in an intervention, nine food banks were opened in the past 12 months, and I understand that there are a further four in development. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the number of adults and children who have at some point been dependent on food banks. The significant fact is that in 2011 there were 11,000 people in that position, and in 2012 there were 29,000; 2,500 families a month were referred in 2011, and in December 2012 that figure was nearly 5,000. There is a trend there.

The main reasons why people go to food banks, as we know, are that they have benefit problems: either their benefits are not paid, or they are paid late. That accounts for almost half the people who go to food banks. Others go because of debt or because they are homeless. Significantly, about 20% of those who go to food banks are working poor people. As someone else said, these are not the scroungers of the popular newspapers. The growth of food banks in Wales is a symptom of a much more fundamental problem: the growing inequality that I mentioned earlier, and a failure of wages and incomes to match the ever-increasing cost of living. There is a fundamental mismatch between people’s wages and what they need to pay for such basics as shelter, warmth, food, and clothing.

Food banks currently provide a vital short-term service and are not a long-term solution, even for the individual who goes to them. That must be borne in mind, if we think that there will be more dependence on food banks. However, they can be a life-saving service. I was glad to open the food bank in my constituency last year, and to meet the good people who give their time and effort to make the place work in the service of their fellow citizens. Their aims and the outcomes that they achieve are entirely laudable, but this is a matter on which the Government should lead. Food banks, if we have them at all, should supplement public provision; they should be a marginal support. It is astonishing, and a disgrace, that in the second decade of the 21st century, when we produce more food than we consume, and after all the advances that have been made in science and technology, we cannot make sure that people get sufficient food.

Food banks, obviously, are a marker of inequality. As I have said, benefits and tax credits have not risen in line with real inflation. However, in Wales there has also been a consistent decline in economic performance and in people’s ability to buy the food they need. The figures are quite stark: Wales’s gross value added per head compared to the UK average in 1997 was 78.1%, and in 2011 it was 75.2%—a decline of about 3%. For west Wales and the valleys—the poorest areas as defined by the European Union—the figure was 67.2% in 1997. It is now 65% and it is, alas, on the way down. Recent analysis by the Resolution Foundation has shown that between 1975 and 2010, the average annual year-on-year change for the bottom 10% was only 0.2%; for the top 1% there was a 2.4% year-on-year increase. Thus there is local decline, and also a decline in relation to class and income sector. As I have said, inequality grew, and has been growing since the 1970s. Some of that was perhaps partly affected by Mrs Thatcher’s policies, but that growth has been consistent.

Unfortunately, average household income in Wales is 12% lower than in the country as a whole. The UK Commission for Employment and Skills has forecast that Welsh economic growth will continue to lag 0.5% behind that of the UK as a whole; so there is a substantial historical problem that is growing. Food banks are not the answer to all that. The remedies are fairly easy to list: we need better economic growth and income distribution, particularly in the poorest areas. We in Plaid support the living wage, as we supported the minimum wage. We need to take steps to end fuel and food poverty.

I will not ask the Minister a long list of questions that he would find it difficult to answer, or demand that he fleece the rich and distribute the largesse to the poor, which he is clearly not in a position to do. I want to ask him for a tiny little step. Let us see whether as a matter of good will he can reply for the Government. It is about something that my hon. Friend the Member for Angus (Mr Weir) and I have been pursuing recently: a small step in relation to winter fuel payments. In response to an intervention by the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), the hon. Member for Cardiff West talked about the importance of disposable income. If people could spend a bit less on fuel they would have a bit more to spend on food, so I ask the Government for a commitment to pay winter fuel payments a bit earlier. Then older people and people with disabilities would get their money to spend earlier in the year, and could get a better deal on coal or a tank of gas or oil. It is not a huge thing, and it would not cost a lot. Will the Minister give a positive answer to that question, as a measure of good will?

A last, brief point—but an important one—is that Wales is not a unique case in the UK or the European Union. We must look beyond our borders and Europe’s borders, and fight to provide food security for people all over the world.

UK and Welsh Governments (Finance)

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 11th September 2012 Westminster Hall

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Leigh. I welcome the new Minister at the Wales Office to his place. His role recently has perforce been one surrounded by a deep silence. I consulted the online Hansard and apparently his last contribution was in the Christmas Adjournment debate of 2010—some time ago. Many hon. Members, not least from Wales, will be looking forward to that silence being broken. I am glad of this early opportunity to question him on a crucial issue for Wales and I am determined to allow him plenty of time to answer. I am sure that hon. Members who are here today and take an interest in the issue will understand that, as this is a short debate, I will take only a few interventions.

My purpose in applying for the debate could not be simpler. I want to know what is going on. I want to hear evidence of progress towards fair funding for Wales. Neither I nor the people of Wales can wait until the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s misguided policies are conclusively proved to be a failure for funding for Wales to be reformed. This is not a back-burner issue. There is and has been for a very long time a pressing case for reform. It would be worth hundreds of millions of pounds to the people of Wales and would provide part of the springboard—part of the power—that we need to bring Wales out of this deepest of recessions.

The previous Secretary of State for Wales set up a twin-track approach to deal with developing constitutional issues. On the one hand, we have the Silk commission, which has two parts, the first primarily considering taxation issues and the second examining the wider devolution settlement. A great deal of effort was put in to ensure that the commission has cross-party support and cross-party membership. Participants are drawn from the Tory party, the Liberal Democrats, the Labour party and Plaid Cymru. It also has independent members. Plaid Cymru is represented by that fearsome Paxman baiter, Dr Eurfyl ap Gwilym. To my mind, he should be stirring things up in another place, but I will not pursue that line of thought now. With the Silk commission, meetings are advertised, communiqués are posted and consultation takes place. According to its website, the report on part I of its work will be out this autumn and the report on part II in 2013, although the former Secretary of State announced that that might be delayed until 2014. We shall see.

On the other hand, there are bilateral discussions between the Welsh and the UK Governments to discuss financial matters. Participants in those discussions are drawn from the Tory party, the Liberal Democrats and the Labour party, so not all parties in Wales are involved—Plaid Cymru is not involved. I well understand that they are Government-to-Government discussions. I am no more paranoid than any other MP; this is not a case of paranoia or lack of understanding on my part. The point is that, unlike the Silk commission, those discussions are simply not open to all and not transparent.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on gaining this debate and the Under-Secretary on his appointment. My hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head. We have the two processes of the bilateral discussions between the Governments and the Silk commission. My understanding is that the commissioners have some contact in terms of how those discussions between the two Governments are proceeding, but surely it is very difficult for them to put together a comprehensive package unless the cloak of secrecy surrounding the intergovernmental discussions is lifted.

[Hywel Williams]

My hon. Friend makes a very pertinent point. The question was asked of me in preparation for this debate whether one set of discussions needed to be concluded before the other set of discussions could be concluded. Do we not need to wait until the questions about responsibility are decided before we decide what the financial settlement is? My hon. Friend makes a very good point. What I am looking for in this debate is some answers from the Minister, who perhaps can enlighten us. My understanding is that, with the intergovernmental discussions, no communiqués are issued. Ministerial statements have lacked detail. Freedom of information requests have been refused or severely curtailed. Written questions have produced stonewalling answers. There is little information in the public domain and there is no schedule for reporting as there is with the Silk commission.

Therefore, as I said, my aim in today’s debate is simply to obtain some information on who is involved in the meetings, what is happening, what progress they have made, when they will conclude and how they will be reported. The debate is an opportunity for the Government and, indirectly, their interlocutor in Wales to report back to the Welsh people in their favourite forum—Parliament here in London—so here is an open goal for the new Minister.

Let me set out the headings of the matters that I would like the Minister to address. The primary aim of the discussions, as I understand them, is to consider the conclusions reached by the Holtham commission about the block funding grant for Wales—the so-called and now much-criticised Barnett formula. I say “now much-criticised”, as the Barnett formula had no stauncher defenders than members of the previous Administration, who repeatedly referred to it as

“a good deal for Wales”—

that is, until they were no longer in government. Then it was all awful.

The Holtham commission, as we well know, found that the Barnett formula was “not fit for purpose”. There was agreement with that in a variety of other reports issued at the same time from the House of Lords, the House of Commons and the Calman commission and in discourse between political parties and the various parts of Welsh civil society. That is because Barnett is unrelated to the relative needs of each of the devolved Administrations. Instead, it depends on the spending decisions made by individual Departments in England, so the amount of money spent in Wales depends on the amount spent in England. More than that, the formula is intended to converge with the English average, irrespective of whether that helps the people of Wales. That was the initial intention at least—a converging formula.

The amount of money that we get is decided not according to our needs, but according to the formula; and the gap between the amount of money that we need and the amount available is growing. The Holtham commission estimated, conservatively, that there was a gap of about £400 million between the amount of funding that Wales receives and its relative needs. However, those figures are now several years out of date, as well as being based on spending estimates rather than the final budget. More recent estimates by our colleague, Dr Eurfyl ap Gwilym, suggest that the difference in 2010-11 could have been as high as £680 million, not £400 million.

My worry, therefore, as far as the discussions are concerned, is that if we accept the much-touted suggestion of a Barnett floor to prevent further convergence, we will lock ourselves into the existing inequality. The Barnett floor might actually become a Barnett ceiling. The question for us today and for the people of Wales is at what level that might be set. Would it be at 112% of need, 113% or 114%, as Holtham suggested? The answers to those questions are crucial.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Members of all parties are concerned about the operation of the Barnett formula. I have always taken the view that we cannot deal with the situation in Wales without dealing with the situation in Scotland, because there is a huge overpayment to Scotland. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the only way of resolving the issue is to deal with Scotland and Wales at the same time?

[Hywel Williams]

I will give a plain answer to a plain question: the Barnett formula should be reformed and we should do whatever it takes to reform it. My concern, as a Welsh MP, is the effect on Wales, and the effect on Wales is very damaging. That is the point. That is why I want answers from the Minister.

Time is catching up with me, so I will press on. We would also like the Minister to report on the housing revenue account subsidy, which my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) has brought up repeatedly. According to a freedom of information request, though they may not realise it, council house tenants in Wales have donated more than £1 billion to the Treasury since devolution began. This year, the estimate is that £73 million will be returned. There is no such scheme in Scotland or Northern Ireland—it never existed—and the scheme in England, which had major changes made to it anyway about 10 years ago, has been scrapped. In answer to a written question, the former Secretary of State confirmed that it would be part of the bilateral discussions, so, I again ask the Minister, what is happening or—to coin a phrase—what’s occurring?

The role of the Welsh Government and their borrowing powers is the third issue on which I want to question the Minister. That was supposed to be part of the bilateral discussions, and the Silk commission is examining it as well. The Welsh Government have limited borrowing powers. The right to borrow to invest would make a significant difference. I know that what I am going to say will not find favour on the Government side of the Chamber: if we were to follow Keynesian principles for public sector investment, when the private sector would not do so, borrowing powers could be hugely significant for the Welsh Government. They could make investment decisions for themselves.

Does it not seem odd to people outside this place that the Welsh Government do not have borrowing powers, but local authorities do? The next strand of government down has such powers, but not the national strand in Wales. We, in Plaid Cymru, believe that significant borrowing powers should be devolved to the Welsh Government. Borrowing limits should be based on an assessment of sustainability and affordability—two principles that I am sure will find favour with the Minister. We are not advocating a spending spree. The Welsh Government should be entitled to set an annual borrowing limit for themselves, which they consider affordable. We also believe that the Welsh Government should be free to issue bonds or obtain commercial funding, as well as use the services of the Treasury’s Debt Management Office. That would enable the Welsh Government to decide which borrowing mechanism best suited their requirements. What progress can the Minister report?

As part of the Holtham discussion on borrowing powers, it was recommended that the Welsh Government have unfettered access to end-year flexibility funds—the money left over at the end of the year. It was a matter of great disappointment to, I am sure, all Welsh MPs—well, nearly all—that an unspent £386 million voted to the Welsh Government by Parliament was clawed back by the new Government in 2010. A huge amount of money disappeared down the M4, again. Previous end-year flexibility reserves were invested in projects such as the strategic capital investment framework. The money has been well used. By removing that £386 million of end-year flexibility, the UK Government in effect removed a significant sum of money from the poorest part of the British state. It would have been useful for job creation, keeping people in work and a host of priorities that all Members share.

There we are. I look to the Minister for answers. There is a new Cabinet, and a chance for a new openness and new dialogue with the people of Wales, or possibly not—let us see.

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[Stephen Crabb]

I have yet to see any economist forecasting five years of double-dip recession. I always enjoy listening to the hon. Lady, but given the zero progress that her party’s Government made on the issues, I am not sure we should take guidance from her on this subject.

[Hywel Williams]

I do not wish to torture the Minister with Keynesian quotes; but Keynes did say:

“When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”

What do the Government do if the facts have changed?

Finance Bill

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Monday 2nd July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Charlie Elphicke]

I absolutely agree. The 1980s were a time of great economic expansion; a great time of liberalising markets, sound money and sound economic policies that saw that massive expansion. It was also good that the ’80s saw a massive reduction in the rate of taxation, which spurred on growth.

What happened in the last decade was all built on debt. It was all a bubble and it ended in a massive shambles and a massive bust that has brought our country to its knees. We need growth. How will we get it? By reducing the rate. If we cut the rate, we will increase the take and encourage people to invest in UK plc. That is where we need to go.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Proponents of the Laffer curve, which is what the hon. Gentleman is talking about, often say that paying a higher rate of taxation is a matter of personal choice. Does he agree?

[Charlie Elphicke]

As I said, I think the Laffer curve is an interesting principle, but I prefer empirical curves and empirical results from experiments. We know from the ’80s that if the rate is cut, it increases the take. For me, the uncertainty is not about whether reducing the rate from 50p to 45p will cost the Exchequer £100 million, but about whether it will add £100 million or £200 million to the Exchequer as fewer people seek to avoid tax.

Finance (No. 4) Bill

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Thursday 19th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

On a point of order, Mr Williams. I thought we were having a debate on the granny tax rather than on Second Reading of the whole Finance Bill.

[The Temporary Chair (Hywel Williams)]

That is a very good point.

[Graham Evans]

Thank you, Mr Williams. I say to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) that, as I alluded earlier, many of these points have been raised by other hon. Members on both sides of the House. I will soon bring my speech to an end. I hope he will forgive me.

There is even more support coming business’s way in my neck of the woods with £4.3 million extra for Cheshire and Warrington local enterprise partnerships. In addition, the Budget confirms a further £130 million for investment in the northern hub rail project, which will work well alongside High Speed 2. Furthermore, the new city deals, which will decentralise power and bring even more investment directly up to Manchester and Liverpool, are excellent news for those great cities and my constituents who commute to them in huge numbers each morning.

--- Later in debate ---

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[The Temporary Chair (Hywel Williams)]

Order. I intend to call the Minister at 4.23 pm, so I ask hon. Members to keep their contributions short.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I am now totally baffled, because the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) returned to the simplification issue, but what we heard earlier, when he perhaps was not in the Chamber, was an impassioned ex post facto rationalisation for this change given by the hon. Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) and, to a lesser extent, by the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Margot James). They sought to assure us that this really was not about simplification, and that it was all part of a master plan to deal with the problems of an ageing population and make the pensions system better for people. So I am now baffled as to which it is. Is it about tax simplification only or is it about a very thoughtful plan, which had not previously been mentioned? This is where I was also puzzled by what the hon. Member for Ipswich said, because nothing of what he said was said by the Chancellor; no obvious rationale on those terms was given by the Chancellor when he introduced this measure in his Budget speech, as he slipped it in as being “simplification”.

This is not part of dealing with the problem of an ageing population; there are other ways of doing that. If the money raised was to be used to help with pensions, it would be a different matter. If it were to be used to help people in my constituency who are struggling with increased care costs and who are not getting assistance with care because they do not meet the extremely high thresholds that are now being imposed, we would have to listen to the suggestion. However, the provision is about finding some extra money to fund the big tax cut that has been given to people with high incomes.

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The Committee proceeded to a Division.

[The Temporary Chair (Hywel Williams)]

I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)]

I beg to move amendment 9, page 4, line 33, leave out ‘high’ and insert ‘higher’.

[The Temporary Chair (Hywel Williams)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 10, page 4, line 34, at end add

‘for recipients of child benefit’.

Amendment 75, page 4, line 35, at end add—

‘(2) Schedule 1 will not come into effect until a study has been carried out into ways of mitigating the impact of the Schedule on families with only one earner, compared with families with two earners, and placed in the Library of the House of Commons.’.

Clause stand part.

Amendment 11, in schedule 1, page 131, line 7, leave out ‘high’ and insert ‘higher’.

Amendment 12, page 131, line 8, leave out ‘high’ and insert ‘higher’.

Amendment 25, page 131, line 10, leave out ‘£50,000’ and insert ‘£60,000’.

Amendment 26, page 131, line 11, leave out

‘one or both of conditions A and B are’

and insert ‘condition A is’.

Amendment 13, page 131, line 12, leave out ‘high’ and insert ‘higher’.

Amendment 27, page 131, leave out lines 19 to 24.

Amendment 28, page 131, line 24, at end insert—

‘(5) A person (P) is not liable to a high income child benefit charge if the total adjusted net income for the year of that person and any partner does not exceed £100,000’.

Amendment 77, page 131, line 24, at end insert—

‘(5) A person (P) is not liable to a high income child benefit charge if the total adjusted net income for the year of that person and any partner does not exceed £100,000, subject to any child or children in respect of whom child benefit is claimed being resident in the United Kingdom notwithstanding the European Communities Act 1972.’.

Amendment 14, page 131, line 26, leave out ‘high’ and insert ‘higher’.

Amendment 29, page 131, line 29. leave out from ‘met’ to end of line 30.

Amendment 30, page 131, line 31, leave out ‘and B’.

Amendment 31, page 131, line 32, leave out from ‘is’ to end of line 13 on page 132 and insert ‘100%’.

Amendment 32, page 132, line 14, leave out from beginning to end of line 2 on page 133.

Amendment 33, page 133, leave out lines 16 to 26.

Amendment 34, page 133, line 29, leave out ‘another’ and insert ‘a higher’.

Amendment 35, page 133, line 30, leave out from ‘681B(1)(a)’ to end of line 33.

Amendment 36, page 133, leave out lines 36 to 39.

Amendment 37, page 134, leave out lines 3 and 4.

Amendment 38, page 134, leave out lines 10 to 12.

Amendment 15, page 134, line 28, leave out ‘high’ and insert ‘higher’.

Amendment 39, page 134, leave out lines 34 to 37.

Amendment 16, page 135, line 9, leave out ‘high’ and insert ‘higher’.

Amendment 40, page 135, leave out lines 13 to 23.

Amendment 41, page 135, leave out lines 37 to 40.

Amendment 17, page 135, line 38, leave out ‘high’ and insert ‘higher’.

Amendment 18, page 136, line 9, leave out ‘high’ and insert ‘higher’.

Amendment 42, page 136, leave out lines 13 to 23.

Amendment 19, page 136, line 35, leave out ‘high’ and insert ‘higher’.

Amendment 20, page 136, line 38, leave out ‘high’ and insert ‘higher’.

Amendment 21, page 136, line 45, leave out ‘high’ and insert ‘higher’.

Amendment 22, page 137, line 13, leave out ‘high’ and insert ‘higher’.

Amendment 23, page 137, line 22, leave out ‘high’ and insert ‘higher’.

Amendment 24, page 137, line 26, leave out ‘high’ and insert ‘higher’.

Schedule 1 stand part.

[Mr Chope]

I rise to speak to amendment 9 and the other amendments in the group, standing in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh). We face a rather unsatisfactory state of affairs, because the guillotine will fall at 6 o’clock, which means that we have precisely 52 minutes to discuss the whole of clause 8 and schedule 1, which deal with child benefit and will affect 1.2 million families up and down the country, potentially yielding £1.5 billion for the Exchequer. How can one do justice to the complexity of what the Government are proposing in this short space of time?

Regional Pay (Public Sector)

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Westminster Hall

[Jonathan Edwards]

The hon. Lady makes an excellent point, and I thank her for that intervention. I will come on to talk about the brain-drain element and the polarisation of wealth across the British state.

I say to the Minister that, with the policy in operation across some parts of the public sector already, the Treasury should have the information about its impact at its disposal. That leads us to ask why the autumn statement pledged to hold an investigation into the issue. There is already a wealth of evidence from trade unions about the problems of the policy in the courts and prison services.

Without having sight of the Minister’s speech, I presume that her counter-argument might include saying that it is the Government’s intention to equalise the standard of living for public sector workers. Such an argument might go along the lines that a teacher working in Carlisle or Carmarthenshire has more disposable income than a colleague working in Reading, because of the difference in the cost of living and that that is morally unjustifiable. Superficially, that seems a seductive and attractive argument, but it is essentially a policy aimed towards a race to the bottom.

I hope that the Government do not embark on a divide-and-rule strategy and play public sector workers off against each other, as they have during the public sector pensions debate. Under the proposals, both public and private sector workers in the regions and locations concerned would be losers. The impact of such a policy would not be a geographical or sectoral rebalancing of the economy; it would be a sobering experience, with public sector workers already in fear of their jobs having their pockets picked for pension payments and suffering a prolonged period of wage freezes and real-term cuts.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the arguments about differential costs of living in some areas are sometimes bogus? He will know as well as I do that, for example, transport costs in rural areas are astronomical. People might have to run two cars, as they struggle to maintain a lifestyle that involves travelling to two jobs in different directions.

[Jonathan Edwards]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent argument. Indeed, following the autumn statement, he tabled an early-day motion on the topic, which I think has been supported by about 18 Members to date. I urge those Members who support the campaign on this issue to sign that early-day motion at the very least.

Public sector workers are facing real-term cuts and that is before we consider the impact on the private sector. In many places, the private sector is reliant on the trade generated by the public sector and the money circulated through public sector employees. In constituencies such as mine, where more than 30% of people work in the public sector, there is a direct correlation between their wages and the cash circulating in the local economy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards]

That is a fantastic intervention, if I am honest. Obviously, if we were to think this policy through rationally, it would mean that Members of Parliament should receive differential pay, and I can imagine how that might go down with hon. Members if we had to vote on it.

[Hywel Williams]

To return to the practical problems that we have in Wales, we share a long land border with England that is rather different from Scotland. There is much less traffic. I am very glad to see that link with England and both sides should profit from it, but it means that public sector pay in the Courts Service in Mold, for example, is different from that in Chester, which is just a few miles down the road, and that is ludicrous.

[Jonathan Edwards]

That is one of the practical problems that will come from this policy.

As a Welsh nationalist, I of course welcome the statements of the Government of my country that they will look into devolving public sector pay and conditions. Let us hope that if the UK Government continue with this policy, they match their words with actions. My only word of warning is: how will the Welsh Government fund this policy, given that they are reliant on block grant funding, which has been depressed by the Treasury, and that they are paralysed by an inability to raise their own revenue? If we go down this road, we will have to reform the funding formula, which the Labour party was previously cautious about doing.

Every hon. Member will acknowledge that the cost of living—particularly housing—for public sector workers in some parts of the UK is a problem. The chasm between private sector and public sector wages in London, for example, needs to be addressed. That is why my party previously made the case for a maximum wage to tackle the ridiculous earnings and bonuses paid to people in the square mile that do so much to inflate prices for ordinary working people in both public and private sectors. We must consider introducing innovative ideas, such as rent caps, as in New York, to reduce the housing benefit bill and ensure that public sector workers are not priced out of housing.

Rather than take such bold measures, the UK Government prefer to hammer hard-working people in the poorest parts of the state in an attempt to remedy the problems caused by the obsession of successive Westminster Governments with the economic elite here in London. That policy response, based on dealing with the consequences of macro-economic policy, has led to such imbalances across the state, rather than tackling the causes of those imbalances. The argument is that, through regional pay, the differences between public and private sector pay will disappear, but that claim comes about through looking at problems through the wrong end of the microscope. That is the same perspective from which people argued that cutting public sector jobs would lead automatically to their replacement with private sector jobs—and that has since been proven quite wrong, especially in areas such as the one that I represent.

In Wales, as in other parts of the UK, the private sector is undoubtedly too small, and that is sometimes misrepresented by people saying that there is too large a public sector, but that is not the case. The private sector in Wales needs to be given encouragement to grow through tax breaks, Government support for specific industries and infrastructure improvements. My party has been championing such intervention in response to the economic turmoil of the financial crisis in the past four years. I need not remind hon. Members that the Welsh economy under Plaid Cymru was growing faster than in any other part of the UK when we left office.

Sharp cuts in the pay available to public sector workers would have a hugely negative impact upon their ability to spend in the private sector and would probably lead to a vicious downward spiral, with job losses in the private sector and then a further downward impact upon public sector pay to again realign. This is what Blanchflower calls a “death spiral”. The effect of regional pay may be to institutionalise lower pay and create employment ghettos. I am concerned that, despite such significant problems, the twin siren calls of saving money and dismantling the public sector may be too much for the Chancellor to ignore. I hope that I am wrong. Diolch yn fawr.

--- Later in debate ---

[Glyn Davies]

No, I cannot say.

[Hywel Williams]

The hon. Gentleman says that the debate is on a long-standing, old question from 30 years ago. I thought that the Conservative position on it in Wales was made clear in a debate on 30 September 2008, when Mr William Graham—some hon. Members might not know that he is a senior Conservative Assembly Member—said:

“First Minister, you will know that the Welsh Conservatives firmly oppose the introduction of regional pay for civil servants.”

What has changed?

[Glyn Davies]

I am sure that Mr William Graham will be extremely honoured to be quoted in a debate in this House. I will tell him about that when I speak to him later today, as I have arranged to do—[Interruption.]—not on this issue, but on another one that will be of particular interest to Welsh Members across the board.

This issue has the potential to distort local markets. That was my view 30 years ago, and I still see that potential now. I should have thought that I would have found a measure of agreement with the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr in our discussions on Sunday morning, because there are significant questions about the difficulty of transferring from one area to another, for example, and whether inflexibilities will be introduced into the market. There are a host of other issues to consider, too.

We need an inquiry. I understand that one or two Opposition Members feel that the inquiry may not look across the board. I would be disappointed if that were so. We need an inquiry that will bring forward the information that all of us, including the Chancellor, need to make a balanced judgment. The appropriate time for that to happen that will be in six months.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate, which is important for my constituency and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), in that we have large numbers of public sector workers. I am glad that my hon. Friend was successful in securing the debate, and I draw hon. Members’ attention to my early-day motion.

Regional pay would institutionalise lower pay in countries and regions of the UK such as Wales compared with London and south-east England, and it would magnify the unfairness of the current economic situation. Whether it is called zonal pay, local pay or regional pay, in the present constitutional position and economic climate, it would go completely against the supposed policy of the UK Government to rebalance the UK economy, which is sorely needed. Regional pay would badly impact on Wales and other countries and regions with a weaker private sector, which is certainly the case in my constituency, as well as in other parts of Wales, the north-east and north-west of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

When the Government refer to rebalancing, they are referring to something different from what my party means by rebalancing. When the UK Government refer to rebalancing, they are referring to growth in the south-east, as we have seen from the implementation of various policies such as the huge high-speed rail proposal, which will be outlined today, the Olympics or a number of others, which I will not go into this morning.

Our version of rebalancing is to increase support to sectors of industry and locations that have not benefited in the past from Government benevolence and support, which means support for countries and regions that have lost out over previous decades. As my hon. Friend has said, the economic situation has led to the growth of the financial sector in the City of London to the cost of other industries; in Wales, we look in particular at the decline of manufacturing. We have a much more fragile and non-diversified economy because of the centralisation of the UK economy on London, which has produced the overheating of housing costs and pressures in and around London. Anyone who lives in the south-east knows what I mean, and we have seen an increase in inequality between London and the south-east of England compared with the rest of the UK. If the proposals go through—if they are discussed and decided upon—I fear that that inequality will be exacerbated.

The annual survey of hours and earnings published by the Office for National Statistics last month showed that Welsh workers are already among the lowest paid in the UK, while workers in many parts of London and the south-east earn double our average salary. I would be the first to complain about the large pockets of inner-city poverty that I come across when down here in London, and they are scattered throughout the inner cities of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but generally we have seen the north and west of the UK suffering, while the south-east has benefited. That leads me to what might be a soundbite but which has a certain truth: we have regional pay already, but in favour of the south-east. In part, that is because we have too weak a private sector, which needs support and investment to develop, as we in Plaid recommended in our economic renewal plan.

Support for the private sector in Wales may seem a peculiar position for a lefty nationalist to take, and I can see some eyebrows rising around the Chamber already. Unlike the Unionist parties, however, we see no long-term benefits in being continually tied to fiscal transfers from London. That is not the position in which we want to see our country. We want to be as successful as any other part of the UK or of Europe. It is a mark of the failure of the current Unionist settlement that parts of Wales have a gross value added that is low enough to take advantage of European convergence funding. Many parts of Wales have a GVA of less than 75% of the average, so we get large transfers from Brussels. Such transfers are welcome, but we do not want to be in that position at all. That situation is the result of the major economic decisions made in London, where the main economic levers are held. To thrive, the private sector in Wales needs support for it to grow. We need much better infrastructure and the Government to give the support and advantages that will allow companies the opportunity to develop. That has not happened over a long period, and it requires a broad mix of Government policy and a fair economic wind.

Chopping back the public sector in all the guises introduced by the Government—real-terms pay cuts, 710,000 job cuts according to the Office for Budget Responsibility, and the pickpocketing of pension contributions—will not improve the private sector in Wales one jot. Clearly, as anyone who has looked locally at the economy in Wales or elsewhere knows, there is a strong relationship between the public sector in our areas and the private sector. Cut the public sector and the private sector is hit hard.

The effect of any regional pay policy would be to depress wages in the public sector throughout Wales, which will have a strong knock-on effect on the private sector, because families will have less disposable income. Families with less income will purchase fewer goods and services locally, therefore providing less circulation of income for the local private sector.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way and the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) for securing the debate. As well as depressing salaries in the public sector and therefore in the private sector, and given that many of the people affected are already not well paid, will not regional pay cost the state more in working tax credit, housing benefit and the other benefits with which we subsidise low-paid workers?

[Hywel Williams]

The hon. Lady makes a fine point. As so often with the policies of this Government and at times, I fear, of her own Government previously, there is no apparent understanding that the system is such that if we cut off a large branch, the tree itself will be affected. I agree with her entirely.

[Helen Goodman]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. In the north-east, the proposal has the potential to take between £500 million and £1 billion out of our regional economy every year, and yet the switch in capital to our regional economy under the Chancellor’s autumn statement was 0.1% or £4.1 million, which is completely unbalanced.

[Hywel Williams]

Indeed. The hon. Lady’s point is pertinent to the debate.

When cuts were made to wider public sector budgets, the effects were largely on the public sector, of course, but also on the para-private sector—companies that have contracts with the public sector—which is integral to local economies. Similarly, those whose livelihoods depend on services to those in employment will be at risk from the proposals. As well as the local economy, a whole host of small companies that service the public sector in our regions will be affected.

I have great sympathy with Labour Members—I am pleased to see some of them here today—but I appreciate that they will be fighting the proposals with one hand tied behind their backs. It does not please me to make the point about the introduction of regional pay by the previous Government, but the Labour Government promoted the idea. They floated it in 2003, and they introduced it in the Courts Service in England and Wales in 2008, when it was not entirely successful. The Public and Commercial Services Union has told me that regional and local pay in the Ministry of Justice has not been a success, and that with the introduction of local pay in the Courts Service in 2007, there were problems with regional pay zones in the Ministry of Justice. The policy created inequalities and tensions, and it was ultimately unsuccessful and had to be reformed. I hope that lessons have been learned, but I worry that the wrong ones might have been learned.

I conclude by saying that the effect of regional pay will be far-reaching and negative and that it will not improve the private sector. There is a strong likelihood that it will lead to institutionalisation of low pay in some places, and it will certainly make it much more difficult to attract new workers, as my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr has said. The Treasury must reconsider its stance, and I will certainly contribute to the debate as it develops, as will my hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd).

I apologise if my final point sounds light. I am pleased to see that Conservatives in Wales are represented here. The comments of the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) were interesting. I appreciate that Scottish Tories may have problems in mustering manpower. It has been said that there are more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs, and if the London Conservative and Liberal Democrat Government push the regional pay issue through, Tory MSPs in Edinburgh will be rarer than polar bears on the Clyde.

[Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair)]

Order. Some hon. Members have indicated to me informally that they wish to participate in the debate. However, I will not call anyone if they do not rise and seek to catch my eye. This is the new year, a time to exercise the muscles and become fitter, so perhaps hon. Members who wish to speak will rise in their place.

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[Owen Smith]

For the third time, I have to tell the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire that there is no inquiry. A couple of letters have gone from the Chancellor to the heads of the pay review bodies asking them to come forward with evidence on how local pay might reflect local market conditions, which is not an open inquiry. I thought that the hon. Gentleman had taken up the challenge to appeal for an inquiry.

The world has changed since the policies were implemented in 2008 on the Courts Service, which took place in an economy that was growing right across the UK. The world has changed. When the facts change, we reconsider our views, and we are doing that right now. We are thinking about the meaning of the Government’s proposals on regional pay and what the evidence shows us. We will come to a considered view when we know what the Government are proposing, but let us look at the evidence.

Of course, it was a previous Tory Chancellor, in the 1990s, who first talked about introducing regional pay on a much wider scale. What happened in the NHS? Local bits of the NHS were given the right to conduct local bargaining, but they lacked the necessary experience and were unable properly to assess local market conditions. As a consequence, there was more than a year’s delay before regional pay bands were set. When regional pay bands were set, the differential across the country was 0.1%. The rationale for that was, of course, that managers understood that, given the problems and complexity that widespread differentials would throw up, a collective agreement right across the country was the best possible option. The Chancellor agreed, and a year later he took back the power, concerned that there might have been spiralling costs had the situation continued.

[Hywel Williams]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Owen Smith]

I will give way in a moment.

NHS trusts have the capacity to engage in a greater degree of differentiation, but by and large they do not do so, because they accept that it would be unfair and lead to unintended consequences. We saw some such unintended consequences when the police looked into regional pay. In the London Metropolitan area, there was an agreement a few years ago to offer a much higher rate of pay to Metropolitan police officers. The unintended consequence was that officers transferred in droves from the areas around central London, and outer metropolitan boroughs consequently had to set higher rates themselves. Such a policy leads to unintended consequences and involves significant risks, so the Government need to think carefully before they pursue it.

[Hywel Williams]

I do not want to dwell on the policies of the previous Government, because I think that those of the current one are infinitely more damaging, but before we leave 2008, will the hon. Gentleman confirm that the previous Government were not considering regional pay in any other part of the public sector apart from HM Courts Service? Was it just the Courts Service?

[Owen Smith]

The hon. Gentleman knows that I was not in the House in 2008, but as far as I am aware, we introduced the policy in the Courts Service and there was further consideration. The former Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), certainly talked about regional pay, but we did not introduce it in other areas. At the end of our period in government, there had been some experimentation in respect of the Courts Service, but we did not introduce the policy elsewhere.

Let us look at what happened at the Courts Service and consider where we go from here, because there are significant risks. At the time, the Government, and certainly the Treasury, understood that there were risks. My hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield has mentioned the Treasury paper in 2004-05, which stated that

“extremely devolved arrangements are not desirable. There are risks of workers being treated differently for no good reason. There could be dangers of leapfrogging and parts of the public sector competing against each other for the best staff.”

That takes us to the motive: why have the Government now decided to bring this forward? If it was not a good idea a few years ago, why is it a good idea now? The reason is, of course, found in the two issues that they have with the public and private sectors. First, they believe in a totally outmoded, almost Manichean split—the public sector is bad, bloated and inefficient and the private sector is good, lean, hungry and eager to work. That is their understanding.

Secondly, the Government have a thoroughly outmoded notion that cutting the public sector and effectively forcing people to transfer to the private sector—through actively cutting jobs, as we heard was the strategy in the Budget, or through reducing regional pay, as we now hear might be the strategy—will somehow inflate the private sector. There is absolutely no evidence to support that. It is a totally misguided prescription, and one I fear that the Government will repeat.

The Treasury has said that the reason for looking at getting rid of national pay bargaining is to produce

“an economic reform to boost regions of the economy that are over-dependent on the public sector. All the evidence is that flexible public sector pay to reflect local labour market conditions will allow the private sector to flourish.”

Show us the money and show us the evidence, because we cannot see it at the moment. We can see a pamphlet with a lot of inflammatory language about the Manichean split between the fat public sector and the lean and hungry private sector from a think-tank which is pretty close to the Prime Minister and which some would say is a free-market, right-wing organisation, but apart from that I do not see a lot of evidence to support the position.

I suspect that the Minister will come out with some inflammatory comparisons, but I hope that she will not. We have heard so often about paramedics earning 16% more in the public sector than in the private sector, and I hope that we will not hear such unnecessary and unfair comparisons now. As the Institute for Fiscal Studies itself has said, such comparisons do not take into account the fact that there are invariably older and more experienced workers with better qualifications in the public sector. When such factors are taken into account, the differential between the public sector and their private sector counterparts is perhaps only 2%.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe Smith)]

Happy new year, Mr Chope. I am sure that it is an honour for us all to take part in the first debate of 2012, so let us enjoy ourselves for that reason. I thank the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) for securing what has been a thorough and interesting debate. It might not be a new debate, as my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) said, but it is extremely important none the less.

The policy is not about saving money—I shall pause for the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) to draw breath—but about supporting economic growth, and I will go through the reasons why the Government believe that the policy could do that. A simple fact of life that needs to enter the debate is that public and private sector organisations compete for employees in different markets across the UK. There is no way around that fact. Equally, there is no way around the fact that private sector pay is, on the whole, set locally and that public sector pay is usually set nationally. I will set out two effects that those differences can have before going on to the meat of the debate.

The differences can do three things. First, they can hurt private sector businesses that have to compete in certain places with higher public sector wages. Secondly, they can also lead to unfair variations in the quality of public services—something on which I am sure that we would all have more to say, had we another hour and half in which to debate it. Thirdly—this is crucial—if a higher than locally desirable wage bill is set, public sector money is not always allocated as effectively as it could be within local areas. That has a knock-on effect on what the public sector can do with its remaining budget, which has a further knock-on effect on the number of jobs that the public sector can support.

[Hywel Williams]

To the contrary, given the problems of mobility of public service workers that would inevitably arise with regional pay, what consideration are the Government giving to the direction of labour in the public sector?

[Miss Smith]

If I have understood that correctly, it is about what definition the Government are giving to labour in the market. I beg the hon. Gentleman’s pardon—

[Hywel Williams]

The direction of labour. It is a good old-fashioned socialist policy.

[Miss Smith]

Absolutely—which I am clearly not ready for at 10 to 11 on a Tuesday morning.

The point that I was going to make, which is the most important one that I want to leave behind in this debate, is that the Government have set out no detailed proposals at this stage. As I think all hon. Members know, the proposal that has been made so far, through the autumn statement and subsequently, is only to ask the experts how public sector pay might better reflect local markets. I, for one, do not have a problem with that being done by letter. I hear what hon. Members have said about that. However, I am also particularly delighted that the hon. Member for Pontypridd changes his mind when facts change. I hope that in this case also he will wait for the evidence.

Finance Bill

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 28th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point and I shall come to the city of Durham in just a moment or two.

The situation that I am describing, with reducing consumer confidence and increasing stresses on business, would definitely be helped by a reduction in VAT, even if it were temporary.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

May I congratulate the hon. Lady on making such a fine and powerful case in favour of the new clauses tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards)? Given the case that she is making, why do we need yet another review?

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

That is an interesting point, but as my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) said earlier from the Front Bench, we would like to see a time scale and an end point.

As I was saying, we need a full assessment about whether a reduction in VAT would really help to turn around areas such as the one I represent. I also want to know exactly what the impact is on growth, and I will come to that in a moment or two. I want to take up the point that my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) made point about retail, but my argument is that almost every single sector in Durham is being affected by the rise in VAT that was brought in by the parties in government. We are a constituency that has a large public sector not because it is crowding out the private sector, which is the mantra we always hear from the Government parties, but because it is an administrative centre and so has a large number of public sector jobs. However, the public sector is being hit by public expenditure cuts as well as by the rise in VAT.

--- Later in debate ---

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

I can only suppose that the hon. Gentleman was not listening to the answer that I gave earlier to his colleague, who made the same point.

[Hywel Williams]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

Financial Services (Rural Communities)

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 29th March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. Lest we concentrate too much on Barclays, I am sure that it is right to say that other banks have taken similar steps to those that Barclays has taken. Does he share my concern about the potential closures arising from the announcement by Lloyds TSB bank that it will be divesting itself of perhaps 600 branches in the very near future and does he believe that such closures might have as bad an effect on local services in rural Wales and elsewhere as the closures of Barclays branches?

[Roger Williams]

I thank my hon. Friend for that point. When a company such as Lloyds TSB indicates that it will make branch closures, we can readily anticipate where those closures will be made. Indeed, I have some statistics about other companies and I do not wish to concentrate on Barclays. It is just that Barclays is in the forefront of my mind at the moment. It is not only Barclays that has been closing branches. In 2010, HSBC closed 52, Barclays 40, NatWest 18 and Lloyds TSB 11. As my hon. Friend pointed out, more closures are in the pipeline.

Online banking is, to an extent, a generational problem. To draw a parallel, in a debate on fuel poverty in this Chamber, it was pointed out that many people now have the opportunity to take advantage of competition in the fuel sector. A number of hon. Members were in the debate, but only two of us had never switched suppliers—me and my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable). We were, I think, of a different generation. Many people who bank at small rural branches are not willing or readily able to switch to online banking. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) will be making a point about access to broadband and the internet, and such points were made very well in the rural broadband debate that the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) secured in Westminster Hall last week. Many of these people do not have access to fast, safe internet, so even if the will is there it might not be possible for them to bank online. I commend the Government for the excellent steps that they have already taken on rural broadband, but more must be done so that rural businesses, people and communities are not left behind.

I shall finish, as far as Barclays is concerned, by saying that during the process I have been speaking about it was announced that Barclays had made a profit of £6.1 billion, and that its chief executive, Bob Diamond, was receiving a £6.5 million bonus. Bob Diamond’s fan club in Rhayader is not full, and if anyone wants to make an application to join I am sure that there is plenty of capacity. Having said that, Barclays did not take any public money during the banking crisis, for which it should be applauded. It certainly benefited, however, from the liquidity measures and the quantitative easing that the Government implemented to help the banks through the credit crunch, so it should show more thought for its customers, whose taxes assisted in keeping it afloat during that difficult time. I should, of course, point out that it is not only Barclays that has been making closures, as my hon. Friend the Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) has pointed out.

I understand the commercial pressures that the banks are under, but they must understand the effects that closures have on tourism, economic development and customers in rural areas. What is the solution? The Campaign for Community Banking Services suggests that we set up a community bank—one centrally run facility in the community with face-to-face services operating on behalf of all banks and building societies. There would be only one set of overheads, and the massively reduced costs would be covered by all the participating banks. I understand that it would use the same technology as that which links ATMs, so the set-up costs would be not too large. A similar system in the United States has proved very successful. It seems an ideal solution, with our constituents continuing to receive the service that they so desperately need. Will the Minister outline any discussions that he has had on a similar community banking facility for the UK?

I want to say a few words about mutuals and credit unions. I am a member of the Brecon credit union, am well aware of the part that such organisations can play, and have recently met with representatives of the building societies that have remained in the mutual sector. They do a very good job of providing services in local areas, and are able to lend not just on an arithmetic income multiple but on their better understanding of the local economy and of the quality of employment in which many people who wish to get a mortgage are involved. The smaller mutual building societies complain that the reporting and regulatory requirements are more fitted to larger financial organisations. They would like the Government’s approach to be more risk related, and some of the very onerous regulations to be moderated in some way.

It is not just the closure of bank branches that is of concern. I am very pleased that the Government have announced that they intend to maintain, as far as possible, the post offices, which are the financial and social hub of rural areas but which have too frequently been closed. The Communication Workers Union says that 1,000 post offices—one in 10—closed in 2010, and about 2,500, many in rural areas, have been closed in recent years.

Although I am aware that mail volumes are falling, and that other services that branches offer, such as benefit payments, are moving online, I ask that the Minister, in conjunction with his colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, seriously take on board the value and worth of rural post offices. According to Age Concern, 44% of pensioners use post offices to collect their pensions, 43% use them for access to cash and 56% use them to pay their bills. At both a local level and a Government level, we must do what we can to prevent widespread closures and long-term temporary closures. There has been an announcement that the long hoped for post bank will not be proceeded with, but does the Minister have any thoughts on whether a similar facility could be set up to address many of the issues that we are debating today?

The next issue that I want to talk about could be a huge problem for all our constituents. The cheque has been an integral part of our lives for more than 350 years, but there are plans to phase it out by November 2018. We currently write more than 4 million cheques per day, and despite the decline in usage we will still be writing 650 million a year in 2018. Cheques are essential and irreplaceable in many situations, and they are particularly important in rural areas. There is currently no easier, safer or more efficient way to pass money from one person or organisation to another.

Cheques are easy to use, virtually fraud proof, can be posted or handed over anywhere, and are cheap, safe, popular and understood by all. The use of credit and payment cards has, of course, hugely altered payment methods by virtually replacing cash in most everyday transactions, but only larger businesses can afford the technology to install card machines and we are light years away from the day when every individual will be able to receive payments by card.

There is only one reason to get rid of cheque books— profit. Cheque books are more expensive for banks than credit or debit cards. Handling paper is not efficient according to the bean counters, and as all British taxpayers know to their cost, banks are driven by many things other than providing a convenient service for their customers. The abolition of the cheque will lead to an increase in the black economy, as people will start paying cash when a cheque would have previously been used. It could also lead to an increase in crime, as older and more vulnerable people who are unable or unwilling to use other methods start storing significant amounts of cash at home. We do not currently have a viable alternative to the cheque, and until we find one not even the thought of it being abolished should be entertained. Will the Minister ensure that no decisions are made on the abolition of cheques before a viable alternative is found?

In conclusion, these are difficult times for rural constituents, with rising oil prices and the necessary cuts to public services. People need good and proper access to financial services so that they can grow their small business, obtain a mortgage for their first home, or cash and pay in their cheques so the local economy can grow and flourish. Thank you, Mr Caton. I open the floor to my colleagues.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) on securing this important debate. I am sad that so few of us are in the Chamber, as the issue is vital to communities in general, and specifically to rural communities such as those in my constituency and, even more so, in my previous constituency of Caernarfon, which has a large rural hinterland, now part of Dwyfor Meirionnydd. I also congratulate him on his early-day motions, which I have signed. I checked; I have signed at least one of them. He has a track record on the issue.

A great deal of attention has been given recently to the bonus culture and high salaries in banks, but the changes in banking that have the most intimate and direct impact on our constituents happen on the high street: particularly, for the purposes of this debate, in the towns and rural villages of Wales. That impact has had less attention, as has the effect on jobs in the banking sector. A job in the banking sector is always seen as a safe and effective career. Several of my contemporaries at school went into banking. I come across them occasionally, and they are now on extended gardening or golfing leave. That is the effect when banks close, as many have done in the past few years.

We have been given briefing material for this debate. I will refer particularly to the Countryside Alliance’s briefing, which I found useful. According to my briefings, 7,000 branches have closed in the past 20 years, leaving about 10,000. That is a 40% change—ish; my arithmetic is not very good this morning—in provision, which is substantial. Rural banks face a threat. It is not only Barclays, which the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire mentioned, but HSBC and the other members of the big four. In my constituency, the Campaign for Community Banking Services has identified Llanberis as an area of potential difficulty, with only one remaining bank serving a large tourist area visited by many thousands of people during the summer. A couple of other communities in my constituency are in the same situation. Elsewhere, in Bangor, Betws-y-Coed, Wrexham and throughout rural north Wales, the provision of banking services is fragile and under threat.

Unfortunately, the banks have been less than candid over the years about what they are doing. The Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, of which I used to be a member, took evidence from banks some years ago about closures in rural communities. Interestingly, one bank provided us with a map showing that there was a bank within five miles of a community where another bank was closing. Unfortunately, a large mountain was in the way. One would have had to travel all the way down the valley and back up it to get to the bank that was allegedly five miles away, and the return journey would have taken most of the day on public transport. Banks have been less than candid.

I referred in an intervention to the potential danger that some Lloyds branches might close. I understand that Lloyds is in a difficult position—it must divest itself of parts of its operation due to European Community state aid rules—but about 600 branches are threatened, and I fear that they might be sold off. I understand from the press that the new chief officer of Lloyds, Mr Antonio Horta-Osorio, has announced that the plans to sell off the banks are to be accelerated, so the change will happen quickly. That is not only a threat to the Lloyds network; Lloyds also controls Cheltenham and Gloucester and TSB. People do not realise that it has several brand names. I am not sure whether the Government can do anything about that, but I will be interested to hear whatever the Minister has to say.

Local bank branches are vital to commercial activity. The hon. Gentleman mentioned shops in his constituency; the same is true in rural parts of my constituency. Equally importantly, local banks are also a good way to address financial exclusion, which I know concerns this Government greatly, as it did the previous Government. A bank in a community allows for a measure of inclusion; the converse is also true.

Assisting older people, people with a disability and vulnerable people with their banking needs is also an issue. Not everybody can do their banking over the phone or broadband. The Government have at last announced an initiative to bring superfast broadband to parts of Wales, including my hometown of Pwllheli, but that will not extend to all communities. I must mention Rhiwlas, as I always do when I refer to this issue. It is within sight of the university city of Bangor but has appalling broadband service, and there seems little prospect of its being improved. That is not a way out for many people and, as the hon. Gentleman mentioned, we might see the end of cheques, which would also be a tragedy.

On the current trend towards automated banking, my branch, HSBC in Caernarfon, is an excellent branch in the middle of town, but it has recently been largely automated. There are banks of machines for printing statements, depositing money and withdrawing money and a telephone that one can use to talk to somebody far away. The counter space has been reduced to two positions. I was there the other day. A member of staff was hovering around the machines to seduce customers into using them, but there was an enormous queue for the two positions, one of which was closed. People are voting with their feet. They would rather queue for 10 or 15 minutes than use the machines. That says that people appreciate the face-to-face nature of banking transactions. Banks divest themselves of that way of promoting their business at their cost.

HSBC has also introduced its own radio station. I do not know whether hon. Members have heard it. When one queues for a position, one must listen to pop music, news and advertisements for the bank’s own products. I almost think that HSBC is doing it deliberately to drive customers away; it certainly drove me to use the automated facilities. As I said, banks will have to learn—as have Departments, such as Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Department for Work and Pensions—that people like to discuss their business face to face. I would also say that face-to-face business is of itself good business.

My party’s policy for many years has been to set up local community-based banks. In fact, it was one of the central planks of our 2007 manifesto. If local community-based banks cannot be set up wholesale, we would like pilot schemes. I know that this Government and the previous Government thought carefully about setting up post banks, but if a scheme cannot be introduced wholesale, can pilot schemes be tried, just to see what would happen? Post offices offer themselves as ideal locations for providing access to personal and small business banking. I will not pursue the question of post office closures, Mr Caton—I am sure that you would stop me in my tracks if I did—but I note that there were 200 closures in Wales during the last wave of closures, 11 in my constituency. However much local people complained—I organised a series of public meetings in my constituency that were very well attended—the net effect was that 11 closures were proposed, and 11 closures went ahead. I was not sure from the hon. Gentleman’s remarks whether it is still Liberal Democrat policy to have post banks or community banks. It would be sad if that has changed.

Finally, in Cardiff we have a One Wales Government made up of Plaid Cymru and the Labour party, and we have invested recently in credit unions, which are an excellent way of providing small amounts of money—small loans—for people, and of saving small sums of money. The One Wales Government have invested a further £3.4 million in credit unions.

[Roger Williams]

One of the points on which I could have expanded is that there does not seem to be a root from which a credit union can progress to become a larger, more responsive financial service, such as the mutual building societies, which, of course, originated in small communities such as ours.

[Hywel Williams]

Indeed. There is a gap in the market. Credit unions are very good for people who need small amounts of money and need to save, but it is not so easy for businesses to access small amounts of investment. There have been huge complaints about the way in which the large banks have been acting in that regard recently. I am loth to mention cases, but a holiday business in my constituency closed down because trade was terrible and the bank withdrew its banking facilities. Without going into details, all I need to say is that it was winter—trade is always terrible in winter—and the bank would not wait until summer. I would say, therefore, that there certainly is a gap in the market. Our proposal as a party is for a postal bank—a people’s bank, as it were.

I will end by saying that I would like the Welsh Assembly Government to have the legal power to intervene in the market in that way if this place does not do so itself. I think that everybody understands that there has to be change. Banks are commercial organisations, but there has to be much greater social responsibility in their business.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) on succeeding in securing the debate. This is an incredibly important topic for a number of hon. Members. As he has said, I am surprised that more hon. Members were not aware that the debate was being held this morning. The issue that we are discussing comes up in rural communities particularly, precisely for the reasons the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) gave when talking about the crucial ingredients that help to create a vibrant town, village or community. A critical, tipping-point questions is: how many of those vital services can be removed before a village or town becomes less attractive, viable and functional?

I shall start by stepping back and looking at the current range of financial service providers in the UK. What should banks—financial service institutions—have as their core purpose? Ultimately, banks are utilities; they are a necessity in modern life. We are not talking about a discretionary activity; people do not choose to have a bank account, or, necessarily, to borrow or save. Credit and its availability is part of the warp and weft of modern live, so we need to treat banking and financial services in a similar way to water, electricity, gas and so on.

I sincerely hope that the Independent Commission on Banking, chaired by John Vickers, which is due to report in the summer, will take as its starting point the social purpose of financial services, and the issue of what banks are for. I hope that it will move from that basic philosophical concept to the question of what consumers need as a basic level of service across the country. Ideally, consumers should have choice and diversity in the services that they consume. We need to look at the current provision of financial services, particularly in rural communities, and ask whether we are really providing that choice and diversity to local people. I am not convinced that the current arrangements are ideal. The credit crunch and the banking crisis have hindered rather than helped a move in that direction. As hon. Members have said, we need new entrants in the financial services market.

[Hywel Williams]

There is a specific issue surrounding the rural poor. The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), who secured the debate, represents Powys. That is one of the most rural counties and it has, I think, nearly the lowest wages in Wales. Incidentally, it also has the highest level of car ownership, which is a further burden on people. The rural poor are particularly excluded in the situation that we are talking about—I am sorry that my intervention is so long, Mr Caton—and last night I saw an advertisement on television for a company that provides loans based on a week’s wages. The interest rate is around 2,000% per annum. People are going to fall prey to those sorts of temptations.

[Chris Leslie]

Absolutely; the hon. Gentleman makes an incredibly important point. The pay-day lending industry has tried to fill the gap where the mainstream financial services sector has pulled back. In rural communities—this certainly happens in urban communities, such as my constituency of Nottingham East—people have had difficulty accessing mainstream financial services, so those less desirable players have moved in to fill the void. The gap available is being filled not only by high-interest legal players, but the illegal loan-sharking sector. That is a real and growing problem. In recent years, surveys have demonstrated that financial service deserts have grown up across different parts of the country. It is therefore incredibly important that when the Independent Commission on Banking reports this summer, we take the opportunity to step back, take stock and say, “What should good, responsible, social banking involve?” That is not a party political point; we are talking about something that communities need and deserve.

I am concerned about the points made about branch closures in some of the mainstream banks, as they start to retreat from rural communities. Hon. Members have already referred to the Campaign for Community Banking Services and its survey about the number of bank branches that are closing, particularly where a bank is the last one in a town. That leaves those towns or villages without any banking cover at all. I shall mention briefly some of the places affected. Barclays is closing the last bank in town in Kelvedon and Southminster in Essex, and Bedfont in Middlesex. Lloyds is closing the last bank in town in Potton in Bedfordshire, Wainfleet in Lincolnshire, Bilton in Rugby, Barton-under-Needwood in Staffordshire, Netley Abbey and Stockbridge in Hampshire, and Yarmouth. HSBC is closing the last bank in town in Whitburn in Tyne and Wear, Stamford Bridge in Yorkshire and Hoylake in Cheshire.

In addition, although it is not exactly a rural area, we had a debate the other night about the Nationwide closing a number of branches in south-east London. A number of big financial players could be criticised for diminishing the services to long-standing and loyal customers who really appreciate access to a branch.

The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire made a point about access to online banking and the requirement for broadband. High-speed internet is very important, particularly in rural areas, but it is not always available. The hon. Member for Ceredigion talked about the broader concept of financial services, and financial advice. I would add to that the controversy about access to independent financial advice and independent financial advisers, or IFAs. Sometimes, IFAs are one of the only providers of independent financial advice in small communities. Hon. Members may be familiar with the retail distribution review being conducted by the Financial Services Authority, and the impact that that might have on the ability of communities in rural areas to access independent financial advice.

The IFAs are under pressure, not only as a result of the FSA review, in terms of the extra qualifications that they need to gain, but as a result of changes to commission structures, which need to be handled far more carefully. There are also increasing pressures as a result of the levy placed on them by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme. There a number of factors, some of which have reasonable arguments behind them, that together could place in jeopardy the ability of individuals to get free or low-cost financial advice. Will the Minister confirm that he is conscious of that strategic risk to the IFA community? What steps will be taken to ensure that that advice will still be available, despite so many proposed changes?

The hon. Member for Ceredigion congratulated the Government on maintaining the financial inclusion fund for another year. That is one of those strange things that happens in politics when something that is valued is initially scrapped. There were howls of protest in the previous Budget when the Conservative-led Administration decided to scrap the £27-million financial inclusion fund. The fund pays for at least 500 debt advisers—largely face-to-face citizens advice bureaux advisers and so on—and I think it helps to support approximately 100,000 appointments each year. Those howls of protest helped to bring about a partial U-turn from the Government, and a few weeks ago they announced that they will keep the fund going for another financial year. Are we supposed to show gratitude for that? Well, perhaps, but it is not enough to say “Thank you for continuing the fund for another year.”

I want to know what the Government’s plans are for the end of the 2011-12 financial year. What will happen, in April 2012, to the financial inclusion fund? We are in the spending review period, so there is no excuse for not knowing the available finances. The Minister needs to say now what his plans are for the financial inclusion fund from that point; at the very least, it is surely necessary to give charities and organisations that provide debt advice certainty about what will happen over the spending review period, so the Minister needs to answer that point.

[Chris Leslie]

Absolutely. It would be churlish not to be glad that there is a continuation of that, but it is such a pity that it is on a piecemeal, ad hoc, year-by-year basis, when the fund should be a strategic plank of the Government’s approach to providing financial services and advice, especially in rural communities.

[Hywel Williams]

It is tragic that the areas where banks and post offices are closing are the areas where it is also so difficult to access financial advice, and more general advice from the citizens advice bureaux and from lawyers in public service. Banks and post offices are closing and creating deserts, as far as advice is concerned, throughout large parts of rural Wales.