Media Bill (First sitting)

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 5th December 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Kirsty Blackman]

It is a pleasure to take part in the Bill Committee, Mr Vickers. I am glad to see everybody here early on a Tuesday morning, either with or without coffee—I mean, definitely without coffee, as that is not allowed in Bill Committees.

Amendment 39 to clause 1 relates to Gaelic language programming. I hold my hand up: I am sorry that this is not a very good amendment. I have been pretty clear about the fact that there was an incredibly quick turnaround, and I could have done a significantly better job on this amendment. In fact, I am quite happy to support new clause 5 on this issue, which was put forward by Labour.

The Gaelic language and its preservation through public service broadcasting was debated at significant length on Second Reading. The subject is incredibly important. It exercises people in Scotland and across the rest of these islands. There is massive concern about the lack of a requirement for Gaelic language public service broadcasting. There is no requirement for a minimum amount, and no requirements relating to new content. There could, for example, have been a requirement in the Bill for the BBC to produce new Gaelic language content. The Minister is aware that MG ALBA and BBC Alba are involved in producing Gaelic language TV in Scotland, which is absolutely excellent and makes a massive difference to the use of the Gaelic language.

On Second Reading, we heard about the issues that there have historically been with Gaelic. There was the intention by authorities over a significant number of years to reduce the amount of Gaelic spoken in Scotland, and to stamp it out, and Gaelic is still slowly making a comeback. In Aberdeen, we have Gaelic-medium education; that provision is massively full at the moment, despite Aberdeen not being known as a centre for Gaelic, being on the east rather than the west coast. When I visited a Gaelic nursery in my constituency, I asked people whether they found it difficult to ensure that their children were brought up with enough Gaelic language in Aberdeen, where it is not nearly so prominent as it is in, say, the Western Isles. They talked incredibly positively about the impact of children’s TV in Gaelic. Children can watch that TV and learn Gaelic as a native language. Given that there is less Gaelic spoken by the population, public service broadcasting is even more important. Free-to-air public service broadcasting in Gaelic is vital to ensure the continuation of the language, particularly when many adults in the area are not speaking Gaelic regularly.

I would very much like the Minister to consider the lines about Gaelic in the Bill and whether they are sufficient, because I do not believe that they are. I do not believe that Gaelic is given enough of a footing in the Bill. It talks about having an “appropriate” level of provision in the indigenous languages of the UK, but it does not put Gaelic on the same footing as, for example, Welsh; it talks significantly more about quotas and minimum levels of new content for Welsh. That is incredibly important, and I do not at all want to take away from what is happening with Welsh, because that should be happening.

I am asking for parity for Gaelic, or an increase of it—or even an acknowledgement from the UK Government that Gaelic is important. It should not be mentioned as a small aside, and simply be included in a list of other languages. I would very much appreciate it if the Minister considered augmenting the provisions relating to Gaelic, to make it clear how important it is to people in Scotland and across these islands, as one of our indigenous languages. I will not push amendment 39 to a vote—I will return to the issue on Report—but I am happy to support new clause 5, put forward by Labour.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I am delighted to be on this Committee. I support amendments 39 and 40 from my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North. The one thing in clause 1 that I baulked at slightly was the term “regional language”. I would not say that Welsh is a regional language, though there are regions in Wales where language is used slightly differently; there is Welsh and Welsh English, if I may use that term.

I suppose I should confess that I was a participant in a campaign during the 1970s to establish S4C, the Welsh language channel. It was a very long time ago— 40 years ago—and perhaps it would be better to draw a veil over my activities then. If hon. Members are interested in the lessons from the last 40 years on how to build, sustain and improve a channel such as S4C, I refer them to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport document of 2018, “Building an S4C for the future”, by Euryn Ogwen Williams. It is a very interesting document that chronicles, to some extent, what has happened with Welsh in respect of the channel, and it has useful lessons for similar channels, and for Gaelic provision.

One of the outstanding successes of our campaign a very long time ago was ensuring minimum hours in Welsh, to refer to a point that my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North made, and ensuring that programmes in Welsh on a specific channel should be broadcast at peak hours. That was a great success. It is now entirely unremarkable to have programmes in Welsh mid-afternoon, or late in the evening. The very fact that that is unremarkable is a measure of success.

The two sorts of lessons I will briefly refer to from our experience in Wales are, first, what one might call the economic and diversity arguments and, secondly, the cultural arguments. Certainly initially, the arguments for a Welsh channel, and perhaps for a Gaelic channel or Gaelic provision, are essentially cultural. To point to some of the economic features of the argument, an increase in hours in Gaelic would have the same sort of effect.

Initially, in Wales at least, there has been a greater diversity of providers. As with Channel 4, the intention—and the achievement—was to have a larger independent sector and to locate it outside Cardiff, Swansea and Bangor. In my area of Caernarfon, and in Arfon in general, that has led to a huge economic benefit in terms of not only the people employed in television production, but all the other work that has come our way because we have Welsh language television production in the north-west. Those independent producers have also diversified and now participate in international production that has nothing to do with the Welsh channel itself. As a result, we have greater growth in television production skills, and some people have graduated to working in other parts of the world. So there is that argument.

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[Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)]

I have actually watched “Hedd Wyn” on YouTube. What analysis has the hon. Gentleman made of the distribution of Welsh language products on other digital platforms, rather than just on S4C?

[Hywel Williams]

I thank the hon. Member for that point, and I will refer to it if I am lucky enough to be called to talk on the relevant provision later. Welsh programmes are available on all kinds of platforms, but a large number of Welsh-speaking people in England, for example, cannot see programmes in Welsh, because those are not available digitally to the extent I would want. As one would imagine, people have found a way around that, but for the language to prosper and thrive and for provision to be right across the available platforms, we must move forward, and I will speak to that later.

[Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Vickers, and to welcome the Media Bill as it enters a new stage in its passage. Before I begin, I refer hon. Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

As I said many times on Second Reading, I am supportive of the Bill on the whole; I only wish it could have been brought forward sooner after the Government U-turned on their decision to privatise Channel 4. Good progress has been made on the Bill thanks to the excellent work of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, whose recommendations the Government have largely taken on board. That is to the credit of the many interested stakeholders who provided detailed evidence.

It is with that in mind that I have tabled only focused amendments where I feel they are really needed, and I will not unduly dwell on areas where no concerns have been raised. I would like to make as much progress as possible, so that our creative industries can reap the benefits at the earliest opportunity. I look forward to having productive discussions with the Minister and with members of the Committee on both sides of the House in the coming days about how we can ensure that the Bill best achieves its aims and truly secures the future of UK television and radio for years to come.

It is with that in mind that I turn to amendment 39 and new clause 5 on Gaelic broadcasting. Language is a cornerstone of culture; it is not just a way of communicating. Languages are daily expressions of history, reflecting a way of life, values and heritage as they are spoken. The diversity of languages in our nations and regions is therefore a living, breathing expression of the rich identities and traditions that we are lucky to carry with us. Understanding that, however, also requires an understanding that, if we lost a language such as Gaelic or Welsh—if they are not nurtured and passed down through the generations—that rich culture would also be at risk of being lost. With that recognition in mind, I am pleased that we are explicitly discussing the importance of Gaelic at the top of the Bill.

According to the Scottish Government’s Gaelic language plan, census results in 2011 found that, of the population aged three and over in Scotland, 1.7%—just over 87,000 people—spoke, read, wrote or understood Gaelic. While that represented a decrease in the proportion of people able to speak Gaelic in most age groups since 2001, there was actually an increase among those under 20 years old. That is perhaps due in part to Scottish Government initiatives to encourage Gaelic education, including the Education (Scotland) Act 2016, which gives parents the right to ask their local authority to provide a Gaelic-medium education for their child.

In order to nurture a language, however, progress cannot be limited to education. There must be cultural opportunities surrounding the language too, and Gaelic broadcasting can and should play an important part in that. Indeed, BBC Alba—the Gaelic-language television service launched in 2008 as part of a partnership between MG ALBA and the BBC—is a huge asset to Gaelic culture, providing a wide range of high-quality Gaelic programming for speakers to enjoy. I was pleased to meet representatives over Zoom a few weeks ago.

MG Alba is also of economic importance, sustaining around 340 jobs, half of which are in economically fragile areas. The Government have acknowledged that contribution on multiple occasions, saying that MG ALBA makes a hugely valuable contribution to the lives and wellbeing of Gaelic speakers and recognising that certainty over the future is important for MG ALBA if it is to continue to deliver in that way. The fact that Gaelic broadcasting is recognised for the first time in the public service remit in clause 1 of the Bill is therefore welcome.

However, as was mentioned several times on Second Reading, the Bill, and legislation more broadly, seem not to recognise Gaelic-language broadcasters in the way they do S4C in the Welsh language, despite apparent cross-party support for doing so both here and in Scotland. That is not to dismiss the importance of the provisions made for S4C or to say that the situations of the Gaelic and Welsh languages are comparable—there is currently a much larger population of Welsh speakers than of Gaelic speakers—but it seems to be a disparity that MG ALBA, for example, is not mentioned in the legislation at all. Indeed, there is somewhat of a cycle of reinforcement here: if having fewer Gaelic speakers means there is less provision for Gaelic programming, then less Gaelic programming may in turn mean there are fewer Gaelic speakers. Conversely, a boost for Gaelic broadcasting could be hugely beneficial to the language as a whole. That is something new clause 5 and amendment 39 seek to highlight.

Amendment 39 tries to address the problem by directly rectifying disparities in quota requirements. Specifically, a quota requires the BBC to provide S4C with at least 10 hours of Welsh-language programming per week, but no such quota exists—not even at a lower level—for Gaelic broadcasting. The amendment tries to mirror that requirement with a similar measure for content in the Gaelic language. There is more to be done to understand how we can best incorporate quotas and support for Gaelic services in existing legislation, which is why the new clause I have tabled looks to review the status of Gaelic services in legislation in the round.

I want to be careful to make sure that there is enough flexibility in the legislation to ensure that any future changes and partnerships in the area of Gaelic broadcasting are accounted for. However, I am supportive in principle of the idea of ensuring that there are regulatory and legislative measures in place that give Gaelic broadcasting the status it deserves. That may well be the start of a minimum level of content being available in the Gaelic language.

I anticipate that some might say this particular measure is not necessary given that, for the first time, the public service remit now acknowledges the importance of providing content in minority languages, which I of course welcome. However, as the hon. Member for Aberdeen North has argued, without a definition of “sufficient quantity” of content, there is a risk that that inclusion will not result in the kind of tangible change and assurance needed to ensure the growth or even maintenance of minority language content. I therefore support the idea that “sufficient” should be better defined, whether that be through legislation, Ofcom or elsewhere, so that the provision can be truly enforced and upheld.

New clause 5 takes a more holistic look at the ways in which the Bill fails to address Gaelic broadcasting and suggests an assessment be made on whether giving a Gaelic language service a remit as a public service broadcaster might be suitable. That would be an opportunity to look at how we can ensure the statute catches up with events—BBC Alba did not even exist when the Communications Act 2003 was passed—and would reflect Parliament’s will for there to be an enduring television service in both Welsh and Gaelic. Further, it would provide a chance for Government, Parliament and Ofcom to view the Gaelic service as something to be acknowledged in reference to its own needs, benefits and missions, rather than only being considered as a small part of the wider BBC portfolio.

For instance, just a few days ago Ofcom published its sixth review of BBC performance, and mentions of a Gaelic service totalled four lines in an 80-page report. That comes from the need to assess BBC Alba only as a BBC portfolio service, as that is what the BBC operating agreement does. Given, however, the importance of the service to Gaelic speakers, it would be appropriate to see it acknowledged and assessed as such, irrespective of whether the service remains tied to the BBC. Indeed, new clause 5 is not prescriptive, and recognises that although the partnership between BBC and MG ALBA has been working well, this may not always be the preferred set-up for either or both parties involved. Therefore, with future-proofing in mind, it simply looks to provide an opportunity for Gaelic broadcasting to be recognised in its own right, whatever form that might take.

I hope the Minister might be able to lend his support to the new clause, but if he chooses not to, I would like to hear from him on the measures the Department is taking to support Gaelic broadcasting in the way it deserves and needs. This should matter not only to those who speak Gaelic and will enjoy the content, but to our society as a whole, as we look to keep alive the unique culture and heritage of all our nations.

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We still have a fairly small number of people working in broadcasting in Scotland. It is still relatively difficult for newcomers to find their way into broadcasting in places such as BBC Aberdeen, whose representatives I am meeting again tomorrow. There is a very small turnover of staff, because it is a small office and people like their jobs there, which is great.

[Hywel Williams]

The rule here is that if there is facility for growth, growth will occur. There is an Irish saying that I like very much: “Live, horse, and ye shall have hay.” If it is there, it will grow. Perhaps the proof of that, in Wales at least, is that the Welsh-speaking population is equal to the size of Sheffield, but is able to sustain a full channel. I am sure that would happen in Scotland, as well.

[Kirsty Blackman]

Absolutely. If there were a requirement for more broadcasting, not just outside the M25, and for looking at population share, even reporting on spend and population share, there would be clarity and transparency about that spend, and whether it is anywhere close to population share. I think that public sector broadcasters would have a look and think, “Actually, we could probably do better than this. We could produce more content that is more exciting and relevant to people across all of these islands, produced in places with incredibly diverse scenery and people taking part in it.”

As for the Government’s position on levelling up, a fairly general statement on content produced outside the M25 is not going to cut it. It will not bring about levelling up or an increase in broadcasting in places that do no currently see significant amounts. As I said, I appreciate that the Minister and his Government are trying with the outside-the-M25 quota, but it could be done better in order to encourage more content, or at least transparent reporting on the level of broadcasting, spend and content creation in various parts of the UK. As expected from an SNP MP, I have highlighted Scotland, but many parts of these islands could make a pitch for more content to be made in their area, or at least reporting on the level of spend and content created in each region.

Media Bill (Second sitting)

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 5th December 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Kirsty Blackman]

I have some questions from colleagues about channel 3, in particular on the provision of ITV Border, which is the cross-border channel 3 provider that operates around Dumfries, Galloway and, across the border, Carlisle. People in the south of Scotland in such areas do not receive STV; they receive ITV Border, with its regional news and other channel 3 provision.

One of my colleagues, Emma Harper, who is a Member of the Scottish Parliament and has done a significant amount of research and work on this on behalf of her constituents has expressed concerns about the percentage of the content made south of the border compared with the proportion made north of the border. If we are to ensure that, for example, the regional dialects and languages of the UK are part of the public service remit, having a significantly unbalanced situation with ITV Border is a slight concern. It is a bit of an issue for my colleague’s constituents.

Another matter that comes into play concerns news, or updating the general public and ensuring that they are aware of issues. STV—channel 3—is a significant place for people to get access to local news in particular so that they can understand what is going on in their areas more widely, as well as nationally. People in the ITV Border region are being given information about school, legal and policing policies that apply south of the border, but not in Scotland. The content has to be significantly delineated because it is split across two very different jurisdictions—that is in some, not all, legal areas, such as school policy. For example, the school systems are completely different north and south of the border.

What consideration has the Minister given to asking Ofcom to look at ITV Border and whether it is best serving the populations on both sides of the border to ensure that everyone has the most up-to-date regional content in their area? I am not suggesting that we should always have certain delineations, but in this sector in particular, which people rely on for news services and updates, having a disparity that particularly affects the people of the Scottish Borders, rather than the English borders—because more content is made in the south—is a concern.

I would very much appreciate it if the Minister agreed to have a look at this, or to have a chat with Ofcom about the provision of ITV Border to ensure that he and Ofcom believe that the broadcaster is appropriate and properly serving people on both sides of the Scotland-England border.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I have a brief point to make about providing services across the border, as the hon. Lady referred to. That has been a problem in Wales, especially with Welsh language programmes intruding on English language provision to the extent that many people on the borders and the south Wales coast would turn their aerials eastwards or southwards, so the news that they got was for the west or north-west of England. That was remedied to some extent in the north-west at least, by Granada carrying Welsh news, which was a peculiar situation for people in the north-west of England who would receive news about the goings-on in the Llŷn peninsula, where I used to live. There are ways of remedying that, and one way would be for the service south of the border to carry some news from the north.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I am grateful to all those who have made contributions. I will come on to address the points made by the hon. Member for Barnsley East returns, but first I will address the points made regarding Scotland and Wales.

I have some sympathy with that, because while we maybe do not feel as strongly about these things as representatives of the SNP and Plaid Cymru, my own constituents frequently have to listen to news about what is happening in London, rather than Essex, because of the way in which some people receive regional programming.

I fully understand the point made by the hon. Member for Aberdeen North. It is perhaps a consequence of the fact that the boundaries of regional services television do not necessarily coincide with national boundaries, which may mean that people on the border are receiving television services that are less appropriate for them, given their geographic location. I think that is probably a difficult issue to solve, but I would certainly encourage her to discuss it with Ofcom, which will obviously need to be satisfied that each of the channels is delivering the public service remit across the geographic area that it is covering. I think that is probably a matter for Ofcom; I will certainly draw it to its attention and suggest that it might like to talk to the hon. Lady further.

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The listed events regime is incredibly important to people in this country, as are the sports that it represents, and I hope that the regime will be protected in the Bill. I ask that, at the very least, the Minister shares with us details of the progress on the Government’s review, and explains why he is of the opinion that an enabling provision is unnecessary, particularly given that it need not be used if his Department’s review concludes that this issue could be addressed in other ways. I look forward to his response, and to working with him to create a Bill that genuinely future-proofs the listed events regime, rather than taking two steps forward in one area and three steps back in another.

[Hywel Williams]

I welcome the change proposed in clause 20. Major sporting events are a crucial means of introducing people to S4C’s services and, indeed, the Welsh language. In fact, I noted rather jocularly this morning that that has already happened with some events, which were not specified.

For the Committee’s interest, let me set out a couple of ways of getting round the difficulties that S4C faced. Sky at one time had a red button feature that allowed commentary in Welsh or English, as one pleased, but that experimental provision died a death, I am afraid. Rather more interestingly, when S4C was not allowed to carry Five Nations rugby, many people, including me, watched BBC Wales with the sound turned down, and listened to the commentary in Welsh on Radio Cymru—we are a very inventive nation.

The point is that under the current regime, only free-to-air channels received by 95% of the UK population qualify, as the hon. Member for Barnsley East mentioned. S4C was the only PSB excluded, although of course it could be received by 95% of the population it specifically served. I welcome the provision, which redresses that anomaly by specifying S4C.

[Kirsty Blackman]

I absolutely agree about the rugby coverage. Similarly, we watched Scotland games with the volume turned off and Radio Scotland turned on, so that we had commentary from our nation, rather than another nation. Understandably, commentators are always a little biased, and that is fine, but we would like the option of hearing those that are biased in our favour for once. That does not necessarily happen on some of the other channels.

On new clause 2, which relates to access to listed events, I agree with the comments about time zones, and access to non-live events happening on the other side of the world. It would make sense for public service broadcasters to be able to access rights to listed events happening in other time zones. For example, my husband has been obsessed with American football for a significant time. Quite often, if he is not able to watch a live game, then the next day, or the day after that, he watches the 40-minute highlights available on on-demand services for the most important sporting events. Events such as the Olympics, or the women’s or men’s football World cup, can be held in places that mean that the live rights are not terribly useful unless someone is so dedicated that they get up at 3 o’clock in the morning to watch. I am sure that many people watching then would just not go to bed, but it would be more enjoyable for most people to catch up on the highlights the next day—provided, of course, that their team had done all right.

I agree with the points made on new clause 2, and I think it is a clever way to go about the issue. It does not require the Secretary of State to make legislation, but if the Secretary of State chooses to make it, the new clause requires it to be made through the draft affirmative procedure, so the Houses would have a say on it. It is an enabling provision, which is incredibly important, given the changing nature of viewing.

Media Bill (Fourth sitting)

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 7th December 2023 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

I remind the Committee that with this we are considering the following:

Clauses 33 to 36 stand part.

Schedule 4.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Vickers. I will speak to clause 32, and the other clauses about S4C. I welcome the clauses, as do many people in Wales. They arise from the 2018 review carried out by Euryn Ogwen Williams, one of the great figures of television in Wales for many years. I expected an avalanche of complaints, possible amendments and new clauses from my compatriots; however, I am afraid that there is complete silence from them, so I will speak fairly briefly—perhaps to the relief of some members of the Committee. That silence is perhaps a measure of people’s qualified satisfaction with the channel, and is due to it being such a normal part of life. It has been normalised, and is no longer the matter of dispute that it was when I was a student, many years ago, campaigning in its favour. Having been a permanent Member of the Opposition in this place for the last 22 years, I am in the rather strange position of agreeing with the Government and supporting a Government Bill; it is a very peculiar feeling.

I come back to the S4C clauses—I may slip into calling it ès-pedwar-èc, which is what it is usually called in Wales. I was looking for an explanation from outside broadcast television. I know quite a bit about language planning, and there are two principles there that may help us to understand what is happening: the principles of normalisation and institutionalisation. Normalisation is just that—making something that was at one point new, novel and a subject of dispute unremarkable. As I said, I think that is what has happened to an extent with S4C.

The other principle is institutionalisation—that is, when someone switches the machine on in Wales, the output comes out bilingually, or in one language or the other. That process has happened through a great number of public institutions in Wales. Hon. Members may have seen lobbying or advertising material from public bodies and third-sector bodies in Wales that has .cymru at the end. Some time ago, when I chaired the language committee of the Central Council for Education and Training in Social Work, I had a leaflet through the post from the office in London, and it was bilingual. I phoned the staff up in Cardiff and asked, “Is this your work?” They said, “No, what is it?” I said, “It was nothing to do with me either.” When we checked, we found that the machine had just produced it in Welsh, because now the process was institutionalised.

That is one way of seeing what is happening to S4C; it is now being treated as any other public service broadcaster. That is as it should be—but, of course, S4C is a special case. I am not pleading any special rights for S4C, but it is the only Welsh language television broadcaster in the universe, I suppose, if I might possibly venture to say so. Hon. and right hon. Members can, if they choose, switch to Sky, Channel 4, ITV or perhaps even GB News—who knows?—but no such facility is available to Welsh speakers. S4C has a specific and very special place in cultural and democratic life in Wales. It is 40 years old. I am happy to say that it was established by a Conservative Government—by Mrs Thatcher’s Government—40 years ago. Eventually, she could not resist a deputation made up of a Labour party grandee, the Archbishop of Wales and a senior ex-civil servant, who told her that, unfortunately, she had to produce a Welsh language channel. Apparently, she said, “Do I have to?” They said, “I’m afraid you do, Prime Minister,” and she did.

Those were some points about S4C as a special case. I welcome the removal of the geographical restriction on S4C. There are S4C viewers outside Wales—perhaps quite a lot of them, as I said this morning; who knows? They can now much more easily access the channel’s digital and online services. Bringing S4C in line with other public service broadcasters is welcome. It must be put on a par with larger broadcasters, because it provides the same sort of service: it is a generic broadcaster that produces anything from game shows to gardening programmes, but in the medium of Welsh.

On Tuesday, I think, I spoke about the demography of the language, and why that was relevant. The conventional way of thinking about minority languages is that they are the language of the old people, and young people modernise and speak the other language. For instance, I have Polish friends whose grandparents spoke Polish when they escaped communism after the war. The grandchildren do not speak it at all, and the parents occupy some sort of intermediate space. Paradoxically, the Welsh-speaking population is getting younger; young people are learning the language. People of my generation, who were not taught Welsh in the ’60s, are still about—language change takes a very long time—and the proportion of older people who speak Welsh, about a fifth, is much lower than the proportion of younger people who speak Welsh, which is about a third.

That leads me to mention, with some pride, S4C’s provision for children, including mine. There is a dedicated service called “Cyw”, which means chicken, chick or young person. It produces all kinds of content for children in the medium of Welsh. It has its own YouTube channel. It has roadshows, books, badges, balloons and biros—the whole lot. It is extremely popular. Allowing S4C wider prominence will allow even more children to absorb the language in an easily accessible way—by seeing it on telly, absorbing it as they do English. I see that with my children, who were monoglot Welsh speakers until they were about five or six, and are now thoroughly bilingual.

In the ’60s, living in west Wales, I had the pleasure and advantage of accessing Raidió Teilifís Éireann; we could watch Irish television as well as the BBC. There was no ITV available at the time. On RTÉ, we could see American shows much sooner than they appeared on the BBC; the Irish had a certain advantage. That is an early example of something that came up this morning: the value of choice. People these days can choose what they like; we could choose BBC Wales or RTÉ. I sometimes think that watching RTÉ as a child accounts for my accent. Who knows?

Moving quickly on, clause 33, which concerns the board, puts in place the recommendations of the 2018 review. A shadow board has been operating for some time, and I think it seems to be trouble-free. Clause 34 is on accounts and audit. The Comptroller and Auditor General is already the BBC’s external auditor, and there are no issues with that also being the case for S4C; it perhaps normalises its position as a PSB like any other.

Finally, the possibly more worrying—or possibly not—clause 35 changes the previously fixed approach in which the BBC was required to provide at least 10 hours of programmes in Welsh per week to S4C. It allows for alternative arrangements. The contribution of the BBC is highly valued and of a high standard. It produces the news and various other things, including what I think is the longest running soap opera in the universe. “Pobol y Cwm” has been going for a very long time and has a devoted audience, not only in Wales but slightly beyond the border.

The worry is that replacing statutory provision with an agreement that requires a high degree of trust might not work. That was tested in the past, when the licence fee was cut substantially and the funding for S4C was cut substantially. The BBC’s provision, which was set in law, was very much valued. One wonders what will happen if the BBC has further cuts—who knows? Without the 10-hour arrangement, will those cuts be knocked on to S4C?

However, one of the outstanding successful features of S4C is that it obtains programming from more than 50 independent companies, many of which are located in my constituency. People are occasionally slightly surprised when they ask me where I represent and I say, “I represent Arfon, and the main industries in Arfon are agriculture, tourism, the production of blood-testing machines and television programmes.” That is considered slightly peculiar for what is seen by some people as the back of beyond—that depends on where you start from, of course; it could also be said about London. S4C obtains much of its programming from those companies, and that is highly valued.

All I am really asking for is any observations that the Minister might have about the danger for S4C of cuts to the BBC’s provision. Otherwise, I am very glad to support these clauses.

[The Minister for Media, Tourism and Creative Industries (Sir John Whittingdale)]

I am grateful to Opposition Members for their general support for these clauses. The hon. Member for Arfon has taken us through the history of S4C, and he is right to say that it now has widespread acceptance and has become part of the institutional landscape. There is only one part of what he said that I would question: having worked as political secretary to Margaret Thatcher for five years before I entered this place, I can assure him that she would not have done anything unless she wanted to do it.

The hon. Gentleman raised a point about the BBC’s funding of S4C. The Government determine the funding for S4C. It merely comes from the licence fee pot. The BBC is being given knowledge of its funding for the coming year in today’s statement by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. That does not affect the funding of S4C, which has already been determined. The hon. Gentleman also spoke about the flexibility that we are giving S4C and the BBC to determine, potentially, alternative arrangements for the BBC’s support for S4C. That was a request from S4C, which saw it as a benefit that it might receive other forms of support from the BBC, but of course it will have to be by agreement, so the BBC will not be able to change that unless S4C and the BBC reach an agreement together.

The hon. Member for Barnsley East asked for further details about the Secretary of State’s power to approve commercial activities of S4C. We feel that allowing that to be done in writing, rather than by order, provides greater flexibility. The timescale for taking advantage of commercial opportunities, together with the confidential nature of the activities sometimes involved, makes it difficult to do that by order. The Secretary of State will be required to publish any approvals, exempting only confidential matters, and the Secretary of State of course remains accountable to Parliament. I do not think that there is any cause for concern in either case.

The clause is essentially based on the recommendations of the review of S4C, which the hon. Member for Arfon pointed out was widely welcomed across Wales.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 32 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 33 to 36 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 4 agreed to.

Clause 37

Tier 1 services

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephanie Peacock]

Preserving television and visual content is a way of preserving our history. There are already some amazing examples of how television is collected and archived. The British Film Institute, for example, looks after one of the largest and most important collections of film and television in the world, where teams of experts ensure that the collective programmes are accessible for generations to come. In particular, the BFI’s priceless television archive, which includes programming from the 1950s, can help us to tell with fascinating clarity the story of British television and Britain at large over the last 70 years. Since 2016, the BFI has automatically recorded various channels, all day, on an on-air and off-air basis, meaning that the recording is complete with adverts, trailers and announcements. That archive will only become more precious as the years pass.

The BFI archive is complemented by the BBC Archive, which contains over 1.5 million items recorded on everything from film to videotape to digital files. Despite the range of the BBC Archive, there are still programmes missing from that collection, particularly from earlier years of broadcasting. The BBC cites a few reasons for that, including limited means of recording, the expense of recording and tapes of which there was only one copy simply being lost. It also says that limited records were also the result of the fact that there was no requirement to build an archive. It was not until 1979 that the advisory committee on archives recommended that a requirement to keep archives be included in the charter, at which point programmes began more routinely to be kept for good.

It might be easy to assume that archiving in the digital age might be a given, given the capacity of the internet to host vast amounts of information that is then available at our request. However, even digital files and the cloud ultimately rely on physical infrastructure, and the nature of the internet means that there is more content than ever that requires such storage. I therefore support amendment 38, which seeks to set guidance on the archiving and retrieval of on-demand programming. That is not only because we cannot take it for granted that such programming will be properly archived, but because it matters how and where those archives are stored and whether something ends up being in the public interest.

I hope that, in the years to come, we can preserve broadcasting as an insight into our society and culture. To achieve that, we will need input from and collaboration between on-demand programming services and those institutions that can help with archiving, such as the national libraries and the BFI. I believe that amendment 38 recognises that and looks to set us up for a future that values the past.

On new clause 9, although I am interested to hear more about the idea of a nominated body being responsible for a centralised national archive, I am not sure about the detail of how it would work. I feel that I should ask, on behalf of the on-demand services implicated here, what the forecasted cost implications are and on what basis a contributory system has been identified as the most effective and efficient way for services to be part of the effort of archiving. I wonder whether, perhaps, the way forward should not be assumed, as it is in the clause, but rather should hinge on any guidance that is issued as a result of amendment 38, particularly with reference to using those archives and resources that are already working well.

I emphasise that I am keen to support the archiving of our television services, but I want to ensure that the way that is done is carefully considered and properly consulted on.

[Hywel Williams]

I rise briefly to support the amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North, as well as the new clause, and to reassure her and the Committee. In her amendment, she refers to Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru: the National Library of Wales. It maintains the Archif Film Theledu Cymru—the Welsh Film and Television Archive—which is a highly successful development in Aberystwyth.

I also note that these archives have monetary value. In passing, ITV in Wales, for example, has a regular programme with clips from the ’60s, illustrating Welsh life. It fills half an hour—more than fills it. It is not just to fill space. It is very interesting, particularly to people who see culture in its broadest sense: not high culture, but the entire scope of human activity in Wales. It is available in the National Library of Wales, but is also available to broadcasters.

Media Bill (Third sitting)

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 7th December 2023 Public Bill Committees

It would be good if I could have a brief response from the Minister, saying that he will not rule out regulating gaming consoles in future, so that Ofcom and everybody else understands that the legislation could move in that direction if he and the Government believe that a significant enough number of individuals view television mainly or wholly through gaming consoles.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I will not repeat the points made by Members on both sides of the Committee, with which I agree. Briefly, I welcome the provision under proposed new section 362AA(7)(a) to the Communications Act 2003 that

“OFCOM must have regard…to the contribution that the internet programme service will make towards fulfilling the public service remit”

of PSBs, and S4C in particular. As I said on Tuesday, and as I am sure that I will say again when we come to discuss clause 32, S4C is a national, not regional, broadcaster in Wales. It is a separate, independent broadcasting service, much like BBC1 and ITV1. Broadcasting in Wales through S4C is not niche; it offers a wide range of broadcasting, from sport and drama to stand-up and gardening. In fact, through its range of programmes, it can and does extend people’s knowledge and surprise them. One of the things that has always surprised me about BBC news provided through S4C is the range of international reports in Welsh from all parts of the world., sometimes from professional journalists, but also from Welsh people who happen to be wherever the incident or news item is. That extends people’s horizons. S4C is not niche, and not parochial in any sense, so its content must be readily discoverable and prominent on television services, wherever they are.

It is difficult to find out how many Welsh speakers there are outside Wales. The census does not ask that, but it is reckoned that there are at least 100,000 Welsh speakers in England. A rather more interesting proxy for the figure is the fact that quite recently, Welsh was the most popular language to learn on Duolingo. In 2023, some 3 million people had registered, one way or another, to learn Welsh on Duolingo—that is probably more people learning Welsh outside Wales than there are people living in Wales. The extent of it may be learning to say “bore da”—good morning—but that is still interesting. I seek reassurance that “appropriate degree of prominence” in proposed new section 362AO will not lead to S4C being limited to specific audiences, for the reasons I have set out.

[Sir John Whittingdale]

I am most grateful to hon. Members for raising a number of interesting questions. The general answer to them is that these matters need to be considered by Ofcom when it draws up the details. However, I can seek to address one or two of the points made. On the continuing discussion about “appropriate” versus “significant”, I will try not to repeat our maxim that “significant” may be appropriate, but “appropriate” does not necessarily always mean significant—hopefully I got that right. For instance, there is the issue around S4C. Obviously, if someone lives in Wales, then S4C prominence is appropriate. If someone lives in Chelmsford and is learning Welsh, then perhaps it might become appropriate, as the hon. Member for Arfon set out.

My hon. Friend the Member for Torbay made a point about algorithms, and basing prominence on behaviour as well as geolocation. If someone regularly turns to, and finds, S4C, it is an indication that they are interested in Welsh language television. That might well be taken into account in the prominence regime, but that is a matter for Ofcom. The technology may not yet have reached that point, but I entirely take my hon. Friend’s point that geolocation does not necessarily deliver sufficient prominence for each individual viewer.

On the question that the hon. Member for Aberdeen North asked about PSB buttons on remote controls, she is right that one or two of the streaming services pay to have their own button. My remote control has a Netflix button. I think it would be quite difficult to have a PSB button, because PSB obviously covers quite a wide range of broadcasters. It would not be right to say, “You’ve got to have a BBC button”; in a sense, the whole of the point of the legislation is to ensure that we do not need to do that. The prominence regime is designed not to force people to watch PSBs, but just to make them easily findable, so that when someone turns on their television, the first thing they see is the range of PSB channels as suggestions. If that is delivered, we do not necessarily need a button. Netflix presumably paid to have a button because it does not automatically pop up when someone turns on their television, but it will only be pressed by those who choose to watch Netflix. I do not think a button is necessary.

The hon. Lady also raised the interesting question of television-like devices. My children had an Xbox, and because it was constantly plugged in, we used it to access TV, rather than having to remove all the wires. She is absolutely right that in some families, the games console may well be frequently used to access television. That too is something that Ofcom will need to take into account. She asks that I make it clear that it is not ruled out, and I am happy to do that. We have asked Ofcome to look into those issues and draw up what is appropriate. It came as something of a surprise to me to read in my guidance notes that people can watch television on their refrigerator in some cases. I am not necessarily suggesting that it would be appropriate to give the BBC prominence on a refrigerator. All those things are matters that Ofcom will need to consider.

Media Bill (Sixth sitting)

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 12th December 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Kirsty Blackman]

It is incredibly difficult to find a way forward. The hon. Gentleman is right that the issue has been left hanging. Perhaps the press never believed that the Government would implement section 40 and make it work. Maybe the sword hanging over them was not big enough. Whatever has happened, it has not persuaded them to sign up. My key request is that the Government persuades them to sign up, using whatever methods are at their disposal. It is important that we have independent regulation, and that newspapers sign up.

To illustrate the point, IPSO upholds fewer than 1% of complaints that are brought to it. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has ever been through the IPSO process, but it is incredibly complex and difficult. It is supposedly set up in such a way that anybody can access it, but without the advice of a lawyer, it is very difficult for a person to ensure that their concerns are heard and their complaint is upheld by IPSO.

The Government should use all the tools at their disposal. They should be having conversations and doing everything that they can to persuade newspapers to sign up. Section 40 should be removed only when there is an alternative—unless, of course, the Government are going to totally dump the idea of having independent press regulation and just give up on this.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Surely one of the reasons for what my hon. Friend describes is that IPSO exists as an alternative. As she says, less than 1% of complaints are ultimately upheld—the figure I have is 0.3%--with cases taking on average almost six months to reach a ruling. There is a disincentive effect, and the turnout says it all.

[Kirsty Blackman]

That is absolutely the case. It is very difficult for people to interact with IPSO in the first place, so a significant number of complaints never even get to IPSO, never mind going through the process and then not being upheld. The current situation is concerning, but it is for the Government to ensure that the newspapers are properly regulated. It is for the Government to enact and ensure compliance with the outcomes of the Leveson inquiry. I would like to hear more from the Government about what they plan to do to ensure that newspapers are properly held to account and properly regulated, and thus increase the level of trust in our media and, as a result, in our democracy. Those two things are inextricably linked.

Amendment 41 is about trying to find a way forward. The Government will have to persuade the newspapers to sign up, and they will have to persuade the Houses of Parliament that they have done enough to ensure that the newspapers will sign up. If all the newspapers signed up, it would be easy to persuade the Houses that whatever method the Government put in place had actually worked. That is the outcome I would like to see: everybody signed up. Then neither House would have any problem passing this clause to get rid of section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act 2013.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rob Butler]

Strictly speaking, I would suggest that that was libel, so there were legal routes available, but—to pre-empt the point that the hon. Lady might make—I accept that that is a very lengthy and expensive process, and that it might be a case of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I would say that IPSO was wrong in the case. I am very open about it: if something is said that is patently untrue, IPSO needs to hold its members to account, and what the hon. Lady said to some extent undermines that. That is what IPSO needs to take on.

The News Media Association has provided us all with a briefing, much of which is compelling. I will not risk the wrath of Committee members by reading it out in its entirety, but I highlight a couple of points. For example:

“Section 40 would cost the national and local press an estimated £100 million a year to tell the truth. This would be particularly devastating for local publishers.”

In my earlier contributions in Committee, I have been clear that I am concerned to ensure that local news is genuinely local; I got very close to the position of His Majesty’s loyal Opposition on that point at one stage. We should not do anything that makes local news coverage more difficult.

There are perfectly legitimate concerns about behaviour of the press and opportunity for redress, but the regulatory landscape has fundamentally changed since section 40 was introduced. I worked with some newspapers at the time, and they sat up and took notice when the threat of this legal sanction was over them. Publishers and editors have recognised that they have to face up to their responsibilities, and IPSO is much tougher than what was there before. There are serious sanctions, including, ultimately, the £1 million penalty. I completely hear what the hon. Members for Aberdeen North and for Arfon have said about the difficulties of getting through that. There may be more to do to make IPSO effective and easily accessible, but that does not mean that we have to have state regulation, which would be going much too far.

[Hywel Williams]

How does the hon. Gentleman expect IPSO to be persuaded to be more amenable?

[Rob Butler]

What is influential is the understanding of where public opinion is. The thought that the public had had enough was effectively what played a very big part in influencing the regulation of the press. The press did not ignore Leveson; they were very conscious of what was going on. I would certainly have no hesitation in telling people in the media, “You need to recognise that what you have is not quite enough to satisfy legitimate public concern.” Particular examples are helpful; hon. Member for Aberdeen North has given me one, which I shall not hesitate to quote if I have such a conversation.

It is worth also saying that there have been two independent reviews of IPSO. They stated that it was effective and independent, notwithstanding hon. Members’ comments. The second found that IPSO’s

“supportive, but challenging engagement to improve standards”

was

“exactly what an effective regulator should be doing”.

There is an argument that, even if it is not perfect, the press has cleaned house itself.

Media Bill

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 30th January 2024 Commons Chamber

We continue to support what is now new clause 19. I have had much communication from BBC Alba on this and I continue to support its work. I encourage the Government to do what they can to work with the Scottish Government, the BBC and BBC Alba to ensure that the situation continues as is, and that there is clarity about the future of funding, so that everyone agrees on the importance of Gaelic. To be fair to the Minister in Committee, he was also clear about his support for the Gaelic language. Agreement was very much across parties, but Gaelic still does not have the prominence in the Bill that we would like it to, despite the feeling in the House being in favour of it. Anything that the Government can do to improve the prominence of Gaelic in the Bill would be great.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I emphasise the point that the hon. Lady made earlier in respect of the Gaelic language. In terms of language planning, extending the domain of a minority language is extremely important. That domain encompasses the media, including television and radio. She is perfectly right to argue for Gaelic television to be picked up in Aberdeen as well as in the Western Isles.

[Kirsty Blackman]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for backing up my point. I think we are very much on the same page. I am pleased at how much Welsh language TV has changed and moved in recent years. I congratulate him on his personal work to ensure that that happened. He was very clear about the history in Committee, and it was incredibly interesting to learn about that.

I support the amendments about age ratings. I agree that there should be consistency to them and that Disney tends to duck its obligations, which makes it more difficult for parents to make sensible decisions.

The shadow Minister talked about children’s television and the way that children access some television. Children in more deprived households are less likely to have access to smartphones or online systems, and therefore the only way they can access good children’s content may be through the public service broadcasters and their free-to-air services. I want to reinforce the shadow Minister’s point that it is incredibly important to protect those services because of the discriminatory and differential impact their loss would have on the most vulnerable children and those who are least able to access educational programming and have access only to free-to-air services as they air.

It is important to protect children’s television and ensure the provision of good-quality children’s television. I continue to talk and think about the importance of CBBC and CBeebies when my children were young. Other services are available but 10 or 12 years ago, those channels were at the centre of what children and families were watching. I hope that they continue to produce high-quality, useful and interesting programmes. Sometimes we just need to sit our children down in front of the TV and have a few minutes. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] It is thoroughly recommended at times.

The right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington tabled new clause 21, about genres. We agree that there are issues with their removal from legislation. I hope that the Government will agree at least to keep a watching brief on that and that they are willing to ensure that Ofcom can change the genres covered or encourage extra genres to be added in a slightly easier way than is currently possible. The process for making changes is onerous and if problems are identified, it will be difficult for the Government to walk back from the position that they are including in the Bill. Giving Ofcom more flexibility to increase the number of genres would be helpful.

Let me deal with the issues about section 40 and the lack of independent regulators. I met members of Hacked Off yesterday. I have been speaking to the organisation throughout the Bill’s stages, and I tabled an amendment on the subject in Committee. I have concerns about the Government’s position on section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act 2013. I understand that, as the temporary Minister—if that is the correct term—the right hon. Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) said, the provision was a manifesto pledge. I still do not think that it is the right thing to do. We still have significant issues with the Independent Press Standards Organisation. The right hon. Member cannot say that Impress is a state regulator and that it is not independent while at the same time stressing that IPSO is an independent regulator. Either they are both independent or neither of them are. A press-backed regulator and a state-backed regulator would be closer to my definition. I believe that IPSO is not independent, as do many people, if we look at the results and the number of people who go through IPSO processes and do not get the recourse that they hoped for or that natural justice would give them.

I spoke to an individual yesterday whose daughter had died. The seconds before the young woman passed away were filmed and posted on a national newspaper’s website. IPSO found that that was not intrusion into grief. It is against natural justice that that could happen. The individuals from Hacked Off and those who gave evidence to the Leveson inquiry were told clearly by those in charge at the time, “We will make changes. We will ensure that there is recourse.” They were promised by those in the most senior positions that change would happen, yet 12 years on, those people are still waiting for any meaningful change to occur. Given everything that they have been through, they should not have to continue to fight simply to get the press to behave with a little compassion and common sense. I have massive concerns about the Government’s position, and I will support the amendments that the right hon. Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice) tabled. I have a slight preference for new clause 3 over amendment 2 because the new clause is very similar to the one that I tabled in Committee. However, I am happy to take the morally correct position and support amendment 2.

My hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) will cover the sports issues.

--- Later in debate ---

[Douglas Ross]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that point and for supporting my new clause 8. I will come on to not just the affordability but the availability of superfast broadband to get streaming services.

I highlight the importance of broadcast services for rural constituents, including mine in Moray, as well as those of my hon. Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan (David Duguid) and the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone). Graham Biggs, chief executive of the Rural Services Network, has amplified that point, saying that the

“issue of safeguarding DTT and radio is of fundamental importance to rural areas where the population is much older than the national average and the least well served by broadband connectivity. We strongly support the Broadcast 2040+ campaign.”

I have been extremely encouraged by the work of that campaign to get some movement from the Government on the issue.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan highlighted, the issue of broadband connectivity is of huge concern to constituents in his area, as well as in my Moray constituency. Large parts of Scotland and rural areas around the UK do not have reliable, high-speed broadband, so streaming TV is not an option. I have little confidence that the problem will be solved by 2040, particularly given some of the problems we have seen with the roll-out of the R100 programme in Scotland.

Even if that roll-out succeeds, all the targets are met and high-speed broadband is delivered across the country, the other measure that we must look at is broadband take-up. EY has recently undertaken a study on that, predicting that regardless of whether high-speed broadband is rolled out, more than 5.5 million properties in the UK will still not have a high-speed broadband subscription in 2040—well beyond 2034 as specified by my new clause. The report makes a number of other worrying findings and paints a compelling picture of the genuine dependence that millions of the most vulnerable members of our society have on broadcast services to stay connected and in touch. Any move towards an online-only system of TV distribution, without the option of digital terrestrial television, would put a significant group of people at risk of being left behind.

As for why I have tabled new clause 8 and why am I looking for certainty from the Government, both they and Ofcom are conducting reviews of the TV market. Ministers have urged us to await those findings, but 2034 is not far away and if these services are to remain, it is crucial that we attract investment and ensure that they remain commercially viable. To do that, as the hon. Member for Aberdeen North correctly said, they need certainty from the Government. The danger is that without that longer-term certainty, beyond 2034, where the Minister has accepted there is a live question, broadcasters might run down their services and the technology might not be updated. If they get certainty from the Government, they can put in investment to ensure people are not without these crucial services and are not left isolated. If the commercial viability of the service is lost while millions of people are still relying on it, there is a real risk that, perversely, the Government would have to step in and use taxpayers’ money to keep the service going. My constructive proposal would not only help keep people connected but, in the long run, perhaps save taxpayers’ money. Surely it is better to provide the longer-term guarantee now that would enable that investment and deliver a good-quality, universal service for years to come.

I thank the Minister, the interim Minister and the Secretary of State and others who have listened to my concerns on this issue. I met the Minister just last week and I will continue the dialogue on this, because it is a crucial element that we should be debating in this House. I hope we will get some movement from the Government. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) said, Media Bills do not come along often, so this is an opportunity for this Minister, this Government and her Department to put my new clause 8 into the Bill and give that guarantee going forward. That would allow the investment to be made and secure the commercial future for DTT, ensuring that people in Moray, across Scotland and around the UK can continue to rely on those services for many years to come.

[Hywel Williams]

First, may I apologise for my late arrival to the debate, Madam Deputy Speaker? I seriously underestimated hon. Members’ capacity for brevity on the previous business. This afternoon, I would like to speak to my new clause 15 and to refer briefly to new clause 1 and clause 28. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman) for her work with me in Committee—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. It will not be possible for the hon. Gentleman to refer to new clause 1, because he was not here to move it at the beginning. He is fine to speak to new clause 15.

[Hywel Williams]

Thank you for that guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker. New clause 15 seeks to establish a broadcasting and communications authority for Wales. That new independent body would have responsibility for and oversight of broadcasting and media matters in Wales, seeking to reflect the needs of Welsh audiences. Under my new clause, a shadow authority would fulfil the functions of that body before its establishment 12 months after the passing of this Act. The report by the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales recommended that move. Some Members will know that the commission was set up by the Welsh Government and is under the chairmanship of the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams. It reported last week, and one of its conclusions was that there is a need to look at the devolution of broadcasting. An independent authority to regulate would be an integral part of that provision. Recent events have shown that there is a real need for such an authority in Wales. Some Members will know about the internal issues at S4C, the Welsh language channel, which make the argument that the current broadcasting framework is unsustainable.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)]

My hon. Friend is making a compelling case, and the events of the past week involving the commission vindicate the position he has taken. The recent difficulties in S4C have been very damaging for the channel. My firm view is that if the matter had been in the hands of Welsh Government Ministers and the Senedd, which can provide scrutiny and accountability, we would not have got to the damaging state we are in.

[Hywel Williams]

I thank my hon. Friend for that point, with which I entirely agree. Even Welsh Conservative Members concede that the arguments for reserving powers over broadcasting have been undermined by what has happened, and by the Department’s actions—or inactions. We are concerned about S4C, and its funding has plummeted since 2010. The decision to fund it through the licence fee led to a 40% reduction in staff. In 2015, its chief executive officer, Ian Jones, warned about the effects of huge funding cuts and called for “tegwch” or fair play. That was a valuable contribution from him.

S4C’s independence is clearly at stake. We need to remember that there was a substantial and hard-fought campaign during the 1970s to establish the channel. Indeed, we had a discussion about that in Committee, in which the right hon. Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) made some interesting points. I had the opportunity in the interim to consult the Cabinet papers, which I obtained from The National Archives. They show how the threat by the then Plaid Cymru leader Gwynfor Evans to go on a hunger strike was integral to the then Prime Minister’s decision to change course and allow the people of Wales our own channel. The Cabinet papers are very interesting to read, and I hope you will indulge my quoting briefly from them, Madam Deputy Speaker.

[John Nicolson (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP)]

Am I correct in remembering that the Conservatives had promised a separate channel in their manifesto, and had broken that promise until Gwynfor Evans threatened his hunger strike?

[Hywel Williams]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for making that point; that is what I am coming on to. However, a further argument arises from that unhappy episode, as I will show by quoting from the Cabinet papers. They state that the then Home Secretary, the late Willie Whitelaw, said that the Government

“would withdraw its plans to share Welsh language programmes between two television channels. Instead the programmes would, for an experimental period of three years, be broadcast on one channel as had been proposed in the Party Manifesto.”

That is the point that the hon. Gentleman was making.

What is more interesting is that the papers say that Willie Whitelaw

“still thought that the previous plans were preferable but he had agreed to change them in response to representations, put to him by Lord Cledwyn and others, of the views of informed and responsible people in Wales.”

The interesting point is the reference to

“the views of informed and responsible people in Wales.”

In fact, in the same Cabinet meeting, the Secretary of State for Wales said:

“Gwynfor Evans, the leader of Plaid Cymru, was threatening to go on what he called a ‘hunger strike’”,

before going on to say that there could be

“much tension and unpleasantness in Wales later in the year, if he persisted in this intention, and there would be a danger that Plaid Cymru would fall into the hands of extreme left wing leaders”,

mentioning no names. However, later on in the Cabinet papers, the Secretary of State for Wales said that it had been made clear in the press that the change been made in response to

“moderate opinion following very wide consultation in Wales.”

That is the point I want to make. The argument I am making for a Welsh broadcasting authority reflects settled and responsible opinion in Wales. As I said, the constitutional convention has met and taken evidence very widely over two years, and has come to the conclusion that broadcasting should be devolved to Wales.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and for giving us a history lesson on the hard work of Gwynfor Evans. Anybody who is interested in this period in the history of Wales should watch the great drama that S4C recently commissioned on the life of Gwynfor Evans, and this campaign in particular. I was at Crymych rugby club at the weekend with Rhodri John, the actor who portrayed Gwynfor in the drama.

[Hywel Williams]

I can indeed recommend that production for anybody to have a look at; it is very interesting. I can also recommend the biography of Gwynfor Evans, which makes similar points.

The media industry in Wales is more than S4C. We have fantastic production companies, including Cwmni Da in my constituency, news outlets and radio—all kinds of things. The proposed authority would unite the media landscape in Wales under one regulatory roof and safeguard it from harms, including from large conglomerates. It would also focus on areas that are important to the people of Wales. The Labour Welsh Government’s expert panel on a shadow broadcasting and communications authority for Wales proposed that public interest journalism, sports and children’s media be areas of specific focus due to their cultural significance, position in relation to Welsh language ambitions and impact on long-term sustainability, among other reasons. The Welsh Government therefore propose a shadow broadcasting and communications authority for Wales. I look to those on the Labour Front Bench, as potentially the next Government, to give us reassurance that it is their intention to establish that authority, as well as the intention of the Welsh Labour Government in Cardiff.

Wales needs to have a say on its own media landscape to ensure that what works for us is what we get. Prominent commentators such as Professor Tom O’Malley and Mike Birtwistle have said that S4C should be built on shared principles of social partnership, public interest and democratic pluralism; that is, as they say, the Welsh political tradition. An independent regulator for Wales would be better equipped to regulate, defend and promote our national broadcasting and media industry in Wales and ensure that those values are represented. That is my argument in favour of a broadcasting authority.

I will say a few words on the prominence of S4C on the selection services—a point that I also raised in Committee. S4C’s content must be readily discoverable and prominent on television services, but I seek assurances that the “appropriate degree of prominence” will not lead to the limiting of S4C’s coverage to specific audiences, thereby depriving people of a wide range of broadcasts. This language matches that of the electronic programme guides code, which allowed S4C to be on channel 166 on Virgin Media in Wales until 2021. The Government should provide clear principles to guide Ofcom in drawing up the new prominence code, so that public service broadcasters’ designated internet programming services appear prominently and are easily discoverable on screens.

[Miriam Cates (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Con)]

I rise to support new clause 6 and amendment 17, both in my name. The Bill is a substantial piece of legislation and I fully support what the Government are seeking to do through it to bridge the gap in regulation between linear television and internet-based on-demand platforms.

Nobody would argue against the principle that we want to protect children from watching age-inappropriate or harmful content. That is, after all, why Parliament over many years has brought in legislation that mandates age ratings on cinema releases, restrictions on children buying DVDs and videos and, importantly, until the relatively recent past, a watershed for broadcast TV. The watershed, of course, ensures that programmes broadcast before 9 pm are generally suitable for children.

However, now that the vast majority of content watched by children and adults is accessed through on-demand streaming services, the watershed has become increasingly redundant. It does not matter if a programme was originally broadcast live after the watershed; once it is available to stream online, it can be viewed by anyone of any age at any time. That is why we urgently need to apply the same standards of child protection to on-demand video as we do to cinema releases, physical DVDs and linear TV.

While a time-based watershed clearly cannot be adapted for video on demand services, we are very fortunate in this country to have world-class expertise in applying age ratings to video content. The British Board of Film Classification has been empowered by Parliament, through the Secretary of State, to apply age ratings across all cinema and DVD releases in the UK. The BBFC does an excellent job of this, as colleagues have mentioned, and is a global leader in its field. It has produced a system of age ratings that the vast majority of the British population recognises, trusts and understands. Importantly, its ratings are based on regular consultation with thousands of people across Britain to ensure that they meet audience expectations.

We have the relevant age rating expertise already in this country, but as it stands, the Bill will not make use of that expertise. Amendment 17 would address this matter very simply by explicitly requiring Ofcom to consult the BBFC when drawing up the video on demand code. The code will set the rules for streaming platforms, including in relation to age ratings. Why would we not want to ensure that our world-renowned, Government-appointed experts are consulted as part of that?

There was a similar amendment to the Online Safety Act 2023 that required Ofcom to consult with the Children’s Commissioner, and I can see no argument against applying the same principle here. Getting age ratings right is incredibly important, as they will likely become one of the main audience protection measures that platforms employ and will, of course, future-proof the Bill. If parents do not trust the ratings, they will ignore them, and we will then not achieve our aim of protecting children.

That brings me to new clause 6 in my name, which is similar to the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon (Sir Gary Streeter), and I will reiterate some of his points.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gavin Newlands]

I rise to commend my new clause 16 to the House, and to speak to new clauses 17 and 18, and amendments 79 and 80.

This summer will again see Scotland again in the finals of the men’s European championships in Germany. Thanks to listing, every game from the finals will be available free to air on the BBC and STV/ITV. However, once this summer’s Euro 2024 final concludes and Scotland have safely tucked away the Henri Delaunay trophy in the Hampden trophy cabinet, we will be back to the current set-up, which will maintain a paywall for the Scotland men’s national team games.

Last April, I hosted a roundtable summit on how to make progress on getting all of Scotland’s national team matches on free-to-air TV. Two things were clear: as it stood, that would not be an easy or quick fix, with umpteen moving parts and vested interests in the room; however, there was also a willingness to look realistically at what could be done with the right will and resources. We saw how grassroots participation rates in English cricket slumped when the England and Wales Cricket Board signed a deal with Sky and put almost the entirety of the first-class game behind a paywall. The lack of public interest was such that the ECB effectively had to invent an entire competition, purely for terrestrial television, as a shop window for the sport. I assume that we are all aware of the Billie Jean King quote:

“You have to see it to be it.”

No one at the Scottish Football Association, STV, Viaplay, the BBC, UEFA or anywhere else involved in football rights is sitting there plotting to do in Scottish football fans. They are all rational actors, working within the system created by the UK Government and UEFA to achieve their own goals.

[Hywel Williams]

The hon. Gentleman is talking about the unanimity of opinion. I should tell the House that the Welsh Affairs Committee, the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, and the Senedd’s Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee have all called for the Six Nations rugby tournament to remain free to air for broadcasting. Indeed, the Welsh Conservatives have a whole Senedd debate on that matter tomorrow. Last week, I met a senior executive from BBC Cymru Wales, who said that losing the Six Nations, for example, which is currently shared with ITV, will be a blow both to the BBC and to the audience.

[Gavin Newlands]

I will come to the potential issue facing the Six Nations a bit later in my speech, but in the meantime, I am very much looking forward to visiting Cardiff this Saturday to watch Scotland beat Wales in that very competition.