Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill

Helen Whately Excerpts

Committee of the whole House
Tuesday 3rd September 2024 Commons Chamber

[Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con)]

I beg to move amendment 18, page 1, line 12, at end insert—

“25B Report on impact of prohibition on franchise extensions and new franchises

The Secretary of State must lay before Parliament—

(a) within six months of the coming into force of the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Act 2024, a report on the anticipated impact of the prohibition on franchise extensions and new franchises under section 25A; and

(b) after a period of five years has elapsed after the coming into force of the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Act 2024, a report outlining the actual impact of the prohibition on franchise extensions and new franchises under section 25A.”

[The Second Deputy Chairman]

With this it will be convenient to consider:

Clause stand part.

Amendment 19, in clause 2, page 2, line 14, at end insert—

“(1AA) Before making a direct award of a public service contract to a public sector company under subsection (1A), the relevant franchising authority must provide information to the Office of Rail and Road on the public sector company’s ability to become responsible for the provision of the relevant passenger railway services.

(1AB) The information provided under subsection (1AA) must include an overview and analysis of the capacity of the public sector company to provide the relevant services while maintaining or improving existing service provision.

(1AC) Following the receipt of the information provided under subsection (1AA), the Office of Rail and Road must publish an opinion on whether it is reasonably practicable for the public sector company to provide, or secure the provision of, the relevant passenger railway services.”

Amendment 13, page 2, line 17, at end insert—

“(1BA) Every contract made in accordance with subsection (1A) shall place a duty on the public sector company to encourage and invest in innovation across all aspects of its operations, including but not limited to—

(a) operational efficiency;

(b) fares and ticketing;

(c) stations and onboard services;

(d) passenger information; and

(e) digital transformation.”

Amendment 14, page 2, line 17, at end insert—

“(1BA) Every contract made in accordance with subsection (1A) shall place a duty on the public sector company to consider the needs of—

(a) passengers;

(b) residents of rural areas;

(c) residents of areas underserved by the rail network; and

(d) the wider rail network

when considering making changes to existing service levels.”

Amendment 1, page 2, line 22, leave out subsection (3).

Amendment 6, page 2, line 22, at end insert—

“30ZA Impact on provision of rolling stock

(1) The Secretary of State must, within six months of the coming into force of the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Act 2024, lay before Parliament a report on the impact of the awarding of public service contracts to public sector companies under section 30(1A) on the provision of rolling stock by rolling stock leasing companies.

(2) The Secretary of State must consult with other franchising authorities before finalising a report under subsection (1).”

Amendment 7, page 2, line 22, at end insert—

“30ZA Impact on procurement

(1) Within six months of the coming into force of the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Act 2024, the Secretary of State shall publish details of the Government’s proposed approach to procurement once passenger rail services are provided by public sector companies under public service contracts awarded under section 30(1A) and the impact of the awarding of such contracts to public sector companies on procurement processes.

(2) Any publications relating to the Government’s proposed approach to procurement under subsection (1) should include details of the approach towards—

(a) technological development;

(b) the management of demand and supply;

(c) the supply chain;

(d) future sectoral planning.”

This amendment would require the Secretary of State to publish details of the Government’s proposed approach to procurement and the impact of the Bill on procurement processes.

Amendment 8, page 2, line 22, at end insert—

“30ZA Independent financial monitoring of public sector companies

(1) The Secretary of State must, within three months of the coming into force of the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Act 2024, instruct an independent body to conduct monitoring of the financial management of any public sector company with whom a direct award of a public service contract is made under section 30(1A).

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1), “monitoring of the financial management” includes the auditing of accounts, the review of spending efficiency, and the making of recommendations to improve cost-effectiveness.”

Amendment 9, page 2, line 22, at end insert—

“30ZB Report on cost of contracts with public sector companies

(1) The Secretary of State must, within three months of the coming into force of the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Act 2024, instruct an independent body to report on the total cost to the Government of contracts awarded in accordance with section 30(1A).

(2) The first report under this section must be laid before Parliament within twelve months of the first award of a public sector contract in accordance with section 30(1A), with subsequent reports to be laid annually.

(3) Any report published under this section must include consideration of any liabilities previously held by franchises which are now public sector liabilities.”

Amendment 10, page 2, line 22, at end insert—

“30ZC Annual reporting of performance of publicly-owned train operating companies

(1) The Secretary of State must lay before Parliament an annual report on the performance of public sector companies to whom public service contracts are made under section 30(1A).

(2) An annual report published under subsection (1) shall include details of a company’s—

(a) financial performance;

(b) revenue growth;

(c) cost control;

(d) innovation;

(e) service quality metrics;

(f) customer satisfaction metrics; and

(g) value for money.

(3) The first annual report under this section must be laid before Parliament within twelve months of the first award of a public sector contract in accordance with section 30(1A).”

Amendment 11, page 2, line 22, at end insert—

“30ZD Performance-based assessment of publicly-owned train operating companies

(1) Public sector companies with whom public service contracts are made in accordance with section 30(1A) are to be subject to performance-based assessments in relation to their management of the relevant passenger railway services.

(2) Performance-based assessments of public sector companies under subsection (1) are to be conducted by an independent body instructed by the Secretary of State.

(3) In conducting a performance-based assessment the independent body must assess the public sector company against published targets in relation to—

(a) the punctuality of services;

(b) customer satisfaction;

(c) revenue and passenger growth; and

(d) operational efficiency.

(4) Every contract made in accordance with section 30(1A) must place duties on relevant public sector companies—

(a) to prepare performance improvement plans where published targets are assessed under this section as not being met;

(b) to place limitations on the remuneration of senior managers while a performance improvement plan is in force.”

Amendment 12, page 2, line 22, at end insert—

“30ZE Impact on performance and efficiency of the UK rail network

(1) The Secretary of State must, within five years of the coming into force of the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Act 2024, instruct an independent body to conduct a review of the impact of the Act on the performance and efficiency of the UK rail network.

(2) A report on the findings of the review must be laid before Parliament.”

Amendment 15, page 2, line 22, at end insert—

“30ZF Impact on open access operators

The Secretary of State must, within twelve months of the coming into force of the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Act 2024, lay before Parliament a report on the impact of the awarding of public service contracts to public sector companies under subsection 30(1A) on open access operators in the UK.”

Amendment 16, page 2, line 22, at end insert—

“30ZG Impact on exemption of passenger services

(1) The Secretary of State must, within twelve months of the coming into force of the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Act 2024, lay before Parliament a report on the impact of sections 25A and 30, as amended by the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Act 2024, on the exemption of passenger services under section 24.

(2) A report under subsection (1) must include whether the coming into force of the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Act 2024—

(a) has made, or is expected to make, it more or less likely for an application for an exemption to be made to an appropriate designating authority;

(b) has made, or is expected to make, it more or less likely for an application for an exemption to be granted by an appropriate designating authority;

(c) has made, or is expected to make, any difference to the basis on which decisions as to the granting or refusing of applications for exemptions will be made by the appropriate designating authorities.”

Amendment 17, page 2, line 22, at end insert—

“30ZH Independent body to advise on pay and terms and conditions of employment for employees of public sector companies

(1) The Secretary of State must, within three months of the coming into force of the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Act 2024, establish an independent body with responsibility for—

(a) providing advice to Government on the—

(i) remuneration, and

(ii) terms and conditions of employment

of employees of the public sector companies providing passenger railway services under a contract awarded in accordance with section 30(1A);

(b) advising the Government on value for money during the negotiation of the terms and conditions of employment of employees of the public sector companies providing passenger railway services under a contract awarded in accordance with section 30(1A); and

(c) preparing an annual report to be laid before Parliament by the Secretary of State on the terms and conditions of employment of employees of the public sector companies providing passenger railway services under a contract awarded in accordance with section 30(1A).

(2) Advice provided in accordance with subsections (1)(a) and (b) shall be based on annual investigations of working practices conducted by the independent body and consider—

(a) value for money;

(b) affordability;

(c) domestic and international comparators;

(d) the future of the rail network, including the modernisation of working practices.

(3) Advice provided in accordance with subsection (1)(b) shall include advice on whether any conflicts of interest exist between any Government Minister and any union involved in the negotiation of the terms and conditions of employment, and how any such conflicts should be managed.

(4) An annual report under subsection (1)(c) shall include a comparison with the terms and conditions of employment under the franchise which provided the relevant passenger railway services prior to the awarding of a contract in accordance with section 30(1A).

(5) The first annual report under subsection (1)(c) must be laid before Parliament within twelve months of the first award of a public sector contract in accordance with section 30(1A).”

Amendment 22, page 2, line 22, at end insert—

“30ZA Review of impact on exemption of passenger services

(1) The Secretary of State must, within one year of the coming into force of the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Act 2024, conduct a review of the impact of that Act on the exemption of passenger services under section 24 of this Act.

(2) A review conducted under subsection (1) must consult—

(a) the Scottish Ministers;

(b) the Welsh Ministers; and

(c) English combined authorities

on their willingness and ability to make an application to the appropriate designating authority for the grant of an exemption from designation under section 23(1) for the purposes of applying for or being awarded a public service contract under section 30(1A).

(3) The Secretary of State must lay a report on the findings of the review before Parliament.”

Amendment 2, page 3, line 23, after “Scottish Ministers” insert—

“or an elected public body”.

This amendment, and accompanying Amendments 3, 4 and 5, would expand the definition of “public sector company” to enable public service contracts to run passenger railway services to be awarded to public sector companies owned by local elected public bodies.

Amendment 3, page 3, line 25, after “Ministers” insert—

“or an elected public body”.

See explanatory statement for Amendment 2.

Amendment 4, page 3, line 27, after “Ministers” insert—

“or an elected public body”.

See explanatory statement for Amendment 2.

Amendment 5, page 3, line 27, at end insert—

“(ba) ‘elected public body’ means a body which is—

(i) a mayoral combined authority;

(ii) a combined authority; or

(iii) a unitary, county, district or borough council

or which is composed of more than one of the bodies listed above.”

This amendment in consequential on Amendments 2, 3 and 4.

Amendment 20, page 3, line 32, at end insert—

“30D Independent body to provide advice on proposed contracts

(1) The Secretary of State shall, within three months of the coming into force of the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Act 2024, establish an independent body with responsibility for advising the Secretary of State on contracts proposed to be made in accordance with section 30(1A).

(2) The independent body must provide advice to the Secretary of State, including recommendations as to how or whether to proceed with the agreeing of the contract, within three months of a request for such advice being made by the Secretary of State.

(3) Should the Secretary of State wish to proceed with the agreeing of a contract—

(a) having received advice against proceeding with the agreeing of the contract from the independent body; or

(b) without taking such steps as were recommended by the independent body,

the Secretary of State must make a statement in Parliament of the reasons for doing so.

(4) The Secretary of State shall consult other franchising authorities before finalising proposals for the establishment of the independent body under subsection (1).”

Amendment 21, page 3, line 32, at end insert—

“30D Annual report on ticketing effects of public service contracts

(1) The Secretary of State shall lay before Parliament an annual report on the effect of public sector contracts awarded in accordance with section 30(1A) on—

(a) ticket pricing,

(b) tap-in, tap-out options,

(c) single-leg pricing,

(d) digital season tickets,

(e) compensation for delays and cancellations,

(f) ticketing interoperability with—

(i) other train operators, and

(ii) bus and light rail system operators.

(2) The Secretary of State shall consult other franchising authorities before finalising a report under subsection (1).

(3) The first annual report under this section must be laid before Parliament within twelve months of the first award of a public sector contract in accordance with section 30(1A).

(4) Each subsequent annual report must be laid before Parliament before the end of July in each subsequent calendar year.”

Clauses 2 to 4 stand part.

The schedule.

[Helen Whately]

It is good to see hon. Members so soon after the summer recess. I know that the Secretary of State for Transport, the right hon. Member for Sheffield Heeley (Louise Haigh), has been busy over the summer, but I hope that she managed—like the Deputy Prime Minister—to find some time to let her hair down.

When we last met, I set out why the Conservatives cannot support the Bill. I do not doubt that Government Members sincerely believe in their plan, in getting rid of privately run train operators, and in putting politicians in charge of running train services, but just because an ideological belief is deeply held, that does not make it right. It is certainly not the same as using evidence as a basis for decision making.

Our railways are vital to our economy: millions of people rely on trains, whether to get them to work or school, to make essential journeys, to see family and friends, or simply to visit other parts of the country. Our rail system is complex—a mix of public and private built up over many years. One thing it is not, though, is a toy train set to be played with, but I fear that is the approach this Government are taking. They are rushing through this ideological reworking of our rail system despite the absence of solid evidence to back up their approach, at a time when other countries are choosing to increase private sector involvement and competition in their rail systems.

There is no good reason for this Committee stage to be raced through in one day, rather than through a normal Bill Committee that would allow proper time for consideration and discussion, the time appropriate for such a substantial and significant change. Proper time would allow this legislation to be made better—indeed, fit for purpose—drawing on the strengths of our rail system as well as the weaknesses, and using the lessons of our experience and that of others, while still fulfilling the Government’s intention as set out in their manifesto. Instead, in their haste, this Bill simply takes a one-size-fits-all approach, pulling the plug on even the best train operating companies despite the mixed record of the Department for Transport when it comes to the performance of the franchises it runs already.

In the Government’s haste, the Bill lacks any controls or incentives to reduce the risk of increased costs to taxpayers and passengers. We can say the same for performance: where in this Bill are the incentives to improve that, or the protections for passengers should performance worsen when the right hon. Member for Sheffield Heeley is at the controls of our trains? In the Government’s haste, those things are missing too. In their haste, if they do what they said in their manifesto, they are going to bring thousands of rail workers into the public sector, all under a single Government employer. We will have unions reclining comfortably on ministerial sofas as they discuss pay for thousands of people, funded by the taxpayer, with no safeguards to speak of to make sure the taxpayer gets a good deal.

On Second Reading, I said that some more thought should go into the Bill over the summer. I asked a series of questions and made a number of suggestions. At the very least, I was expecting the Government to table some amendments, but I am sorry to report that, as far as I can see, they are going full steam ahead. There is no sign that any serious thought has been given to the long-term impact of Government-run train companies on growth, or on the efficiency of our railways. There is barely a word on the liabilities that this Bill would transfer on to the Government’s balance sheet, and crucially, no evidence has been shared about how passengers and their journeys will be affected.

Fundamentally, the Government are rushing ahead but travelling blind, pressing on irrespective of the impact on passengers or taxpayers, which they simply do not know. The right hon. Lady has made herself passenger-in-chief and then set off on a journey without knowing the destination. That is not a sensible way to govern. Passengers should always come first, above providers, unions and ideology. That is why our first amendment would require the Government to set out what impact they believe the Bill will have.

[Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) (Lab)]

I find the hon. Member’s comments on public ownership a bit rich, given that privatisation of our railways has spelled 30 years of failure—30 years of delays and price increases for passengers, and eye-watering profits for private companies. Most people in the UK opposed privatisation at the time, and most people still oppose it today; in fact, a clear majority of her own party’s voters oppose the privatisation of the railways. Can she not see that the Secretary of State, in bringing forward this Bill, is serving the interests of our constituents?

[Helen Whately]

Unfortunately, the hon. Member is simply wrong in some of the statements she makes. I am not ideological about this—I know that there is a place for the public sector and a place for the private sector. In our reforms, we proposed a closer working together of track and train through Great British Railways, much of which this Government are planning to bring forward. However, there have also been benefits to this country from privatisation, including a significant growth in passenger numbers, which has not been seen in many other countries. That is one reason why several European countries are planning to follow our model and increase competition in their rail services, in order to drive up passenger numbers and provide greater efficiencies.

As I said a moment ago, amendment 18 would require the Government to set out what impact they believe the Bill will have. For instance, what impact will getting rid of private sector train companies—the good performers as well as the weaker ones—have on passengers, fares, reliability and the cost of the railway to taxpayers? The amendment proposes that the Government should set that information out clearly in a report within the next six months. I am sure that hon. Members do not consider that to be unreasonable; surely, it is the least that any of us would want to see, since we all represent both rail users and taxpayers. It would mean that we would all know what difference the Government expect the legislation to make. I would hope that the report would be set out in a way that stands up to scrutiny, that it draws on evidence and that it has a suitable level of rigour for something so significant. It would also give us all something to hold the Government to account against, as well as the managers who take over responsibility for train operators.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough and Thornaby East) (Lab)]

The shadow Minister asks about the benefits that will accrue if this change is made. We on the Labour Benches have been working on it for years, so the suggestion that it has somehow been rushed is a nonsense. May I gently point out to her that over the years that this change has not been made, millions if not billions of pounds have been shipped out of this industry to subsidise and support other nation states’ railway systems? If ever there was a nonsense, that is it, staring us in the face. She talks about ideology: the ideology of privatisation has been ruinous for the railways, and it is about time that it was corrected.

[Helen Whately]

There are a few problems with what the hon. Member has just said. One is that he talks about those figures, but the Government have not taken the time or trouble to set out what the impact of the Bill on passengers and taxpayers is expected to be. Were the Government confident about that impact, I am sure they would have set it out, but they have not. That is why our amendment proposes that they should set it out. We also know that while on the one hand, there are some savings to be made from management fees—I will come to that later in my speech—the benefits of competition, and the pressure of profit and loss and the bottom line, drive innovation and bring efficiency. That does not necessarily happen to the same extent in the public sector.

[Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Ind)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Helen Whately]

No, I will make some progress.

For the reasons I have described, we have also tabled amendments to put some conditions on franchises moving into the public sector. Under the Secretary of State’s plan, the running of trains on our network will increasingly be tasked to a little-known Government company called DFT OLR Holdings Ltd, or DOHL, the current operator of last resort. It seems to me a huge risk to expect DOHL to successfully take over and run every franchise in the country. DOHL has had, shall we say, mixed results with the franchises it has taken over, and expecting it to run a further 10 on top of the four it is currently operating strikes me as a lot to ask. I recognise that the Bill makes reference to that risk by providing for franchise extensions where it would not be practical to bring the service in-house, but under the current plans, that would be decided by the Secretary of State. It is not that I do not trust the right hon. Lady, but she has shown herself to have a great deal of confidence in public operators, in the absence of any substantial grounds for that confidence.

I have been told that there is no plan to increase headcount, budget or resources of any kind for DOHL as it takes on that increase in workload from four to 14 franchises. I welcome the Government making an effort to achieve efficiencies at the centre, but I struggle to believe that more than tripling the number of franchises brought in-house will not involve some increase in resources. We therefore think it would be prudent for the Office of Rail and Road to form an independent judgment on whether DOHL has the capacity and expertise to take on each new franchise as it comes up, and to run it, at a minimum, as well as it is already being run. That could be done well in advance of most contracts ending, so it would not really be a hindrance to the Secretary of State’s plan, but it would provide a great deal of reassurance to passengers, and all of us as their representatives, about the capacity of the Government to successfully take over the functions of so many train operating companies.

[Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

On impact assessments and how we can have confidence that DOHL will improve performance, we can look at past performance. I remind the shadow Minister that the operator of last resort currently runs 14 franchises. Since the east coast main line, which serves my region, was taken over by LNER, revenues have grown substantially. Since TransPennine Express was brought back into public sector operations in May 2023, we have seen cancellations decrease from an average of around 20% to 5%. In the last quarter, TransPennine, which is run by the operator of last resort, DOHL, was the most improved operator in terms of cancellation scores compared with the same period last year.

[Helen Whately]

I accept some of the points that the hon. Gentleman made. That is why I said that the record of DOHL had been mixed. Sometimes there has been improvement in performance, but that is not the case for all the franchises it runs. That is my reason for not being confident that it is the right organisation to take on such a large increase in its workload, particularly without any further increase in its resources, including some operators that are performing better than the train companies that he mentioned.

We want every contract that is awarded to place a duty on DOHL to look at how to modernise our network and to ensure that passengers are at the forefront of all decision making—passengers not just in urban areas and around London but, crucially, in rural areas and places that have traditionally been under-served by the rail network. Time and again, the Secretary of State has said that her No. 1 priority is passengers—that she will protect their interests above all else, and that it is for them that she is seeking this change. This is a chance to put her money where her mouth is and create a legal duty that promotes the needs of passengers in all future agreements with public sector operators. That will build in a layer of accountability on things that we all agree are important.

On amendment 8, public bodies marking their own homework is not something that Opposition Members believe leads to good results. I know from my time in government that independent scrutiny makes life harder for Ministers, but it also improves accountability, and with that outcomes. That is why we seek to introduce proper financial reporting and oversight for public sector operators. Under the franchise system, whatever its shortcomings, train operators are incentivised to increase passenger numbers and control costs. That has been an undeniable success of privatisation. Passenger numbers have doubled and costs have been controlled, increasing at a far slower rate than revenue.

In future, passengers and taxpayers will have to foot the bill for any loss of control on costs, any inefficiencies or any failures to innovate. That is a serious implication, and something we should do our best to protect people from. Creating, or recreating, some incentives is a good place to start. We will need to know how well the public train companies are performing—what they are doing to increase passenger numbers and drive growth in rail services, how reliable their services are, how well they are keeping costs under control, and how satisfied passengers are with the service they provide.

Our proposals will allow us to identify both good and bad performance, hold the managers of those companies to account and reward them accordingly, such as by linking managerial pay to performance. Those companies will no longer have shareholders to answer to, or the financial incentives that go with a senior role in the private sector. The Government have told us that part of their rationale for these changes is to better align the incentives of train operators with the interests of passengers, but the Bill currently provides no mechanism for that. We are not seeking to frustrate a change that this Government were elected to deliver; we simply wish to bring proper transparency and accountability to the process. That includes reporting on the costs involved in bringing operating companies into public ownership.

Government Members will no doubt point to the money that will be saved by removing management fees, but this equation is not one-sided. While the Secretary of State might be saving £150 million each year on fees, industry experts have predicted that the Bill could cost passengers and taxpayers up to £1 billion a year in lost productivity and growth—and that is before accounting for the Government’s taking on all the long-term liabilities of the companies. Pension obligations, rolling stock and long-term leases will all be transferred on to the Government balance sheet, and we have had alarmingly little information on what that figure will be.

[Richard Burgon]

The shadow Secretary of State is making a case from her ideological point of view, although she denies it. Running through her speech is a deep suspicion of the public sector. Suddenly she is suspicious about the quality of service for passengers. Suddenly she is suspicious about the quality of service provided, and the amount of money being spent on it. If only those suspicions and that scrutiny had been applied by the shadow Secretary of State and her colleagues while they were in government to the disastrous privatised railway service. Is she really trying to convince this House that privatisation of the railways was in any way a success? It seems to me that she is trying to stand as a barrier to public opinion and the Bill’s progress, because the majority of people in this country support public ownership of the railways and the Labour Government were elected with that as a clear manifesto pledge.

[Richard Burgon]

I am, thank you. I will bring my remarks to a close by asking, is it not the case that the shadow Secretary of State is being deeply ideological and is only interested in the privatised model and the pursuit of profit, regardless of the effect on the public?

[Helen Whately]

The hon. Gentleman and I probably do have different views ideologically; I will acknowledge that. I think that he probably, as was implied in his intervention, thinks that profit is bad. I think that profit can be a helpful thing, and it is thanks to the motivation of people to make profits that we in this economy, and those in many similar economies, have the prosperity that we enjoy today. I think that Government can do a lot, but I am also thoughtful about when Government can help and when Government might hinder. That is why I take the view that, in rail, sometimes it is right for the public sector to do things and sometimes it is right for the private sector to do things.

One thing that I fundamentally think is missing from the Bill is scrutiny. I am not trying to frustrate the mandate that the hon. Gentleman’s party has to bring forward this legislation—I think I made that clear—but I want to improve it, and improving it involves introducing a level of transparency and accountability that simply is not in the Bill. That is why I tabled my amendments.

We also seek clarity on how the Bill will affect other privately run passenger services on the network. It is clear that deep down, those on the Government Benches know that the public sector cannot, and should not, run every service on the network. That is why open access operators like Eurostar and Gatwick Express have rightly been allowed to continue under these plans.

Open access represents a huge opportunity for passenger rail in this country. When done right it can provide nimble, cost-effective services that give passengers greater choice and bring in revenue for the network. In fact, the EU has enshrined in law the rights of open access operators in tendering for passenger services. We are not proposing that at this stage, but I am concerned about how this change will impact on those already operating on the network, and what opportunities will remain open to them or others to offer new open access services in future.

The same goes for the future of devolved concessionary models. Why, if Government Members truly believe that private providers are simply siphoning off cash, can Transport for London and Merseyside still run concessionary models? While I happen to think they should be allowed to do so, it does not seem fair to have one rule for Sadiq Khan and another for everyone else. What about Manchester, Leeds or Birmingham? What if they want to run their own transport systems in a way that suits them?

My understanding is that the Labour Government want to build on the progress we have made in devolving responsibilities to cities and regions, but this Bill looks more likely to reduce the options for other devolved authorities, leaving them able to run concessionary models only if they get an exemption under section 24 of the Railways Act 1993 to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Louise Haigh)]

I would be interested to know whether the hon. Lady has spoken to her immediate predecessor to understand exactly the value of the reforms he was pursuing as Secretary of State, and if she was aware that they were worth less than half the cost of every time the railways went on strike under his leadership.

[Helen Whately]

Unfortunately, the right hon. Lady’s approach is deeply flawed and risks our facing more strikes in future, rather than fewer. [Interruption.] Yes, to directly answer her question, I can assure her that I have spoken to her predecessor in the role, and I know that the reforms proposed to modernise the railways were crucial not only to controlling increasing costs and fares, but to improving the reliability of our train services. Unfortunately, she gave all that up overnight when she gave away a bumper pay deal of almost 15%, with nothing from the other side to improve services.

The independent body I am proposing would look at pay and terms and conditions in the round. It could shed some light on who is getting a fair deal and help put modernisation at the top of the agenda in negotiations. Given that this Government seem to be set on creating a single huge employer across the network, as set out in their manifesto, which surely means harmonising pay and terms and conditions across many thousands of employees, none of whom I suspect will want to give up whatever terms they most value—a four-day working week, 34 days of annual leave and the extra money they negotiated to start using iPads are some examples—can the right hon. Lady imagine what effect this might have on ticket prices and the efficiency of our network? An independent pay review body could at least gather evidence and advise Government on what makes sense to fill jobs and provide value for money for the taxpayer.

Madam Chair, I am grateful to you for giving me some time to outline our amendments, and I am mindful that other Members wish to talk to their amendments or make maiden speeches, so I will wrap up my comments with a couple of final points. As we made clear on Second Reading, His Majesty’s official Opposition do not support this Bill. Our rail system needs reform, and we have set out plans to do that, but this Bill is not the right way to go about it. On the contrary, the Government are being driven by a flawed ideological belief along the lines of “public sector good, private sector bad”. It is not underpinned by evidence of what works, and they are not being straight with people about the possible downsides such as higher fares for passengers, higher costs for taxpayers and less reliable trains.

Why are the Government rushing through this Bill? Is it to please their Back Benchers, who we know are deeply unhappy about scrapping the winter fuel allowance, or is it to please their union paymasters? I know the right hon. Lady has promised everyone that she is going to move fast and fix things, but this looks more like moving fast and breaking things. I say sincerely to her, as I am sure she will want to make this legislation as good as it can be and, like me, wants to do the best possible job for all our constituents and for the country we serve, that she should please consider the amendments we have tabled and think hard about giving them the Government’s support.

[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Caroline Nokes)]

As a point of information and for my assistance, it would be very helpful if Members wishing to be called could indicate clearly that they wish to speak.

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[Helen Whately]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Simon Lightwood]

I will not give way to the hon. Lady, as she has had plenty of time to put her case.

Those transfers of services have been completed successfully and smoothly despite the challenging timescales and circumstances, which have included financial failure and poor operator performance. We have also made it clear that we will transfer services on a phased basis as existing contracts expire over the next few years. This is a measured, responsible approach that will further de-risk the process. The Bill does not alter the ORR’s role in granting operators’ licences and issuing their safety certificates; in that role the ORR already independently assesses the suitability and readiness of any operator, public or private, to take over services and operate them safely. In light of those safeguards the Government do not see the need to commission further analysis from the ORR, as amendment 19 proposes.

On amendment 20, the Department for Transport has already awarded multiple contracts to publicly owned operators and has considerable experience of managing them in practice, taking legal, financial and technical advice as needed. We consider a new independent advisory body to be an unnecessary additional step that would add cost and risk delaying progress. I can assure the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid Kent that the Department for Transport is conducting a full review of the standard terms of service contracts entered into with public sector operators, reflecting the fact that public sector operation is to be the Government’s long-term approach, not just a temporary measure of last resort.

On amendments 13 and 14, the Government do not consider it appropriate to spell out such specific contractual requirements in primary legislation, which would risk constraining future flexibility to adapt operators’ contractual obligations to suit changing circumstances. On amendment 13 specifically, it would not be efficient for the taxpayer to require up to 14 different operators in England, plus those in Scotland and Wales, to each pursue its own separate wide-ranging innovation strategy. Indeed, a key purpose of our wider reform plans is to drive a much more coherent cross-industry approach in such areas. On amendment 14, I question why the four groups identified, while clearly of course very important, should be singled out for a specific mention when there are many other relevant considerations to take into account in service design, including the interests of the taxpayer, freight users, people with disabilities and residents of urban areas to name just a few. The list could be endless, and the important point is that decisions about future service levels should take into account all relevant considerations.

Amendment 1, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Middleton South (Graham Stringer), would remove the power of the Secretary of State to continue existing franchises. I am happy to reassure my hon. Friend that this provision is included in the Bill as a contingency measure only. It exists in case a short continuation is needed to ensure that services transfer to public ownership smoothly and without disruption to passengers. It is intended to be used only in exceptional circumstances and only for so long as necessary to ensure the smooth transfer. It will be available to the Secretary of State only when

“it will not be reasonably practicable”

for a transfer to proceed. Any continuation would be limited by procurement regulations to a maximum of two years in duration, but in practice we would expect the period to be much shorter. The power is clearly transitional in nature; once services are transferred to the public sector it will no longer be relevant, and clause 2 therefore gives us the power to repeal it in its entirety. This is a sensible, pragmatic precaution that exists simply to smooth the transition to public ownership and protect the travelling public from disruption. I hope that explanation offers my hon. Friend some reassurance.

I move now to amendment 6, tabled by the hon. Member for Moray West, Nairn and Strathspey (Graham Leadbitter). The Bill does not affect the provision of rolling stock. It would not be responsible or affordable for the Government to take on the cost of renationalising billions of pounds-worth of rolling stock when there are so many other urgent pressures on the public purse. However, public ownership will open the door for a much more coherent approach to planning the longer-term rolling stock needs of the whole industry. Once Great British Railways is established, planning the provision of rolling stock across the network will be one of many areas where a single directing mind for the railway will add real value.

We will develop a long-term industrial strategy for rolling stock that supports manufacturing, innovation and interoperability and aligns with the wider objectives of the industry. It will look to end the boom and bust cycle of rolling stock procurement, ensure sustainable pipelines for future work and consider the best financing structures for future orders in partnership with private capital. I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame Morris) that we will consider the points he has raised as we undertake work on this matter. My officials are engaging with Eurofima to consider the potential of UK membership and the role that could play in the UK market. We will set out more plans on that in due course. A report mandating that in primary legislation is therefore not necessary in the Government’s view.

Amendment 7, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Derby North (Catherine Atkinson), seeks details of the Government’s proposed approach to procurement and the impact of public ownership on the procurement process and the supply chain. She is absolutely right to highlight the crucial role of the broad and diverse private sector supply chain in helping to deliver high-quality rail services, and I very much welcome the contribution made by businesses in her constituency and right across the country. I can assure her and those businesses that innovation and technical progress will remain as fundamental as they have ever been in delivering improvements for passengers, cost efficiency for taxpayers and benefits for the environment.

I can confirm that there will be no immediate impact on the approach to procurement when services transfer to public ownership. Existing private sector operators are already required to follow the same procurement rules as public sector operators. Under the governance reforms, Great British Railways will provide much clearer long-term direction across the whole railway system, giving businesses and the supply chain the certainty and confidence they need to plan, invest and innovate for the future.

Amendment 15, tabled by the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid Kent, considers the Bill’s potential effects on open access operators. The Bill is specifically about the ownership of services currently operated under the contract with the Secretary of State and Scottish and Welsh Ministers. Public ownership of those services will not prevent open access services from running as they do now. The report proposed by her amendment is therefore unnecessary. However, I take this opportunity to reassure her about the role of open access in the future in the context of the Government’s wider reforms. How we make use of network capacity and grant access is fundamental to the performance of the railway and what it delivers for all its users. Open access operators such as Hull Trains, Lumo and Grand Central are a valuable part of our railway. We are keen for such services to continue to operate alongside publicly owned services, where they add value and capacity to the network.

The hon. Lady’s amendment 16, along with amendment 22 from the hon. Member for Bath and amendments 2 to 5 from the hon. Member for Brighton Pavilion (Siân Berry), touches on the role of devolved and local authorities in the planning and delivery of rail services. Amendments 16 and 22 each refer to exemptions granted under section 24 of the Railways Act 1993. Those exemptions allow services in London and the Liverpool city region to be procured by the relevant authorities in those areas, outside the franchising system. The Bill makes no change to those existing arrangements and it will remain for those authorities to decide how best to deliver the services for which they are responsible.

Amendments 2 to 5 would allow the Secretary of State and Scottish and Welsh Ministers to award contracts to companies owned by certain elected public bodies. While the Government are committed to strengthening local involvement in the planning and delivery of rail services, it will be important to ensure that does not undermine the plan for Great British Railways to act as a directing mind that provides coherence, consistency and clarity for the whole railway. To support that, the Government intend to award contracts specifically to public sector companies owned by the Secretary of State via DOHL.

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[Helen Whately]

We recognise the Government’s mandate to nationalise the railways. We are not seeking to frustrate that, but simply to improve their legislation. I have heard the arguments of Government Members and the Secretary of State in support of the Bill, but I remain unconvinced and unreassured. We agree that rail needs reform, but we disagree on how to do that. I thought we agreed that passengers were the priority, but it seems that we disagree on that too, because Government Members have just voted against a simple amendment that would have ensured that public operators served the needs of passengers, including in rural and underserved areas.

I would have hoped that we could agree on the importance of controlling costs, including one of the biggest costs that the railways face, which is that of the workforce, but again we clearly disagree on that. The Government have caved into ASLEF’s pay demands with a “no strings, no modernisation” pay deal, and now Government Members have voted against our proposal for an independent pay review body, a simple mechanism to help the right hon. Lady make sure she is not steamrollered into conceding to excessive and expensive pay demands by Labour’s powerful union paymasters. However, I welcome the hint from the Minister with responsibility for local transport that the Government may be considering introducing something along those lines, and I look forward to hearing more about that.

Here we are on Third Reading of the Bill after just a few hours of debate. Rushing this Bill through makes no sense at all. Why? Are the Government throwing a bone to their Back Benchers in return for their backing cuts to the winter fuel allowance? Is it to please the unions that donated to Labour Members’ campaigns? Is it a distraction from dodgy appointments and the conduct of their Rail Minister in the other place? Or do the Government Front Benchers believe this to be a minor change, though it is not? Is that why they think so little scrutiny and parliamentary time is required?

I urge the Government to think long and hard about the amendments we have put forward. Although we do not agree with this plan, as I have said, we accept their mandate to deliver it. We are simply proposing sensible changes to protect passengers and taxpayers, and I urge them to reconsider during the Lords stages of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.