The Economy

Harriett Baldwin Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Ed Balls]

I find that baffling as well. The fact is that cutting VAT was an effective stimulus, as the IFS said, which led to strengthening growth and falling unemployment a year ago. Now that cut has been reversed, and our position on the policy has been consistent. We propose not a move all the way from the Government’s deficit reduction plan to halving the deficit in four years, but a step along the road. That would be the right thing to do, and it would deliver for the constituents of Government Members a boost of £450 a year for a family with children, and of £275 a year for a pensioner couple. Why do they oppose action that would put money in people’s pockets and help to get the deficit down in a fairer way?

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman says that he likes to do his politics on the record. On the “Daily Politics” show on 14 March, he said:

“We’ve made no commitments at all, it would be totally irresponsible for an opposition to behave”

in that way. What is responsible about an unfunded £51 billion tax cut?

Eurozone (Contingency Plans)

Harriett Baldwin Excerpts

Monday 20th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

Madame Christine Lagarde is clearly an outstanding candidate to be head of the IMF, but is the Minister slightly concerned that she is French and, given that the French banks have a very large exposure to the Greek problems, that she might therefore be conflicted in her approach to the problem?

[Mr Hoban]

Madame Lagarde is a strong candidate for the role of director-general of the IMF. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to point out that she is French; that fact has not escaped us in ECOFIN meetings. Madame Lagarde said on “Newsnight” a couple of weeks ago that she recognised that the bail-out of Greece involved a series of agreements between eurozone countries, and that that should remain the case.

Regulatory and Banking Reform

Harriett Baldwin Excerpts

Thursday 16th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

My statement today has demonstrated the action that we have taken over the past year to create a more stable and sustainable banking system. That should give comfort to my hon. Friend’s constituents in respect of the safety of their savings. Savers and depositors should be mindful of the limits on deposits imposed through the financial services compensation scheme, but the range of interventions that we are making, through this statement and further reforms, will ensure that we have a safer, more sustainable banking sector in the future—one that does not impose a burden on the taxpayer, but makes sure that it continues to meet the needs of businesses and households across this country.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

Does the Financial Secretary share my astonishment at the selective recollection of historical facts by Opposition Members? The run on Northern Rock started well over a year before the global financial crisis, and it was the first run on a bank in this country for more than 100 years. In rebuilding the stability of the financial system, will the Financial Secretary repeat for my constituents the reassurance that their deposits up to £85,000 are now effectively guaranteed by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme?

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend makes two important points. The first is to recognise the role played by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme in protecting depositors up to that £85,000 limit. The other point is that there is collective amnesia among the Opposition about their role in the financial crisis. Yes, Northern Rock took place before the global financial crisis—and they were the champions of light-touch financial regulation and introduced the tripartite system of regulatory reform that was shown to fail during the crisis. The Opposition need to recognise their responsibility; until they do so, it will not be possible for them to move on.

Oral Answers to Questions

Harriett Baldwin Excerpts

Tuesday 10th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Danny Alexander]

I am not sure that the right hon. Gentleman opposed any of the items on that list in votes in the House.

As I said earlier, we have cut income tax by increasing the income tax threshold. We have also introduced a triple lock on pensions, increased cold weather payments, and increased the child element of child tax credit. Of course we must look at the way in which the income tax system works, but our priority has been to cut income tax for people on low and middle incomes by increasing the tax threshold. That is the tax priority of this Government.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

7. What steps he is taking to ensure that the Financial Services Authority exempts from new domestic regulation businesses employing fewer than 10 people and new businesses for the next three years.

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)]

Where the Government are granting new powers to the Financial Services Authority through primary and secondary legislation, we will seek to apply the moratorium. The FSA is, however, an independent regulator with powers to make rules under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. The Government’s policy on exempting micro-businesses and start-ups from new regulation will therefore not apply automatically to rules made by the FSA.

[Harriett Baldwin]

In his testimony to the Treasury Committee, the chief executive of the FSA said that up to 10,000 jobs—in many cases, those of small independent financial advisers—could be lost as a result of the retail distribution review. Will the Financial Secretary meet the chief executive of the FSA as a matter of urgency to discuss ways in which the impact could be mitigated?

[Mr Hoban]

I know that my hon. Friend has campaigned tenaciously for IFAs. I remind her that although the FSA is an independent regulator—this addresses her question directly—it has an obligation to assess the impact of its rules on businesses, including small businesses, and to make its rules proportionate. I should add that it is not planning any initiatives by means of its powers under the Financial Services and Markets Act apart from those that are already under way.

Amendment of the Law

Harriett Baldwin Excerpts

Monday 28th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

I rise to speak in support of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor’s historic and pivotal Budget. Today we have heard Conservative Members give examples of what a difficult hand the Chancellor has been dealt in producing a Budget. We have heard about the £120 million a day—£840 million a week—that the Government have to pay in interest. We have heard that interest has, in effect, become one of the biggest Government Departments. That is why it is so important to point out the difference between the deficit and the overall debt. In setting out the path that he did, my right hon. Friend still has to live with the fact that debt will be rising in every year of this Parliament until the last one. That means that the debt interest bill is still growing, despite the tighter economic conditions that he has imposed.

I think I am probably somewhat different from other Members of this House in that I did not aspire to come here when I was a student. Indeed, I managed to survive the first 40 years of my life without it ever crossing my mind that I should stand for Parliament. Shortly after Tony Blair’s second election victory in 2001, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) gave another historic Budget in which he departed from Conservative spending plans for the first time. At the same time, that Government were beginning to evaluate whether the conditions might be right to enter the euro. Those two horrors were the impetus for me to seek election to this place. I vowed, as a mother, that I wanted to ensure that my children did not grow up in a country that was facing bankruptcy, and yet I failed to get here soon enough to stop the rot. I am therefore very grateful to the Chancellor for having finally set out a path that will enable my children—and one day, I hope, grandchildren—to enjoy opportunities of the kind that I enjoyed when I left university.

Enough of me; I think I should talk about the Budget. I welcome the Budget’s focus on growth and the private sector. When the right hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) was an adviser to the previous Prime Minister, he set out something called a neo-endogenous growth strategy. Again, I realised quite early on that the problem with such a strategy is that before long the marginal impact of increased Government spending decreases, and one runs out of money. We therefore need to focus on private sector growth, which is why this Budget is so pivotal. A lower tax rate for businesses will bring in higher tax returns.

[Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con)]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful point about the importance of lowering taxation on businesses to provide growth. Does she agree that the Chancellor was immediately vindicated the next morning, when Sir Martin Sorrell was on the “Today” programme explaining that WPP, the world’s largest advertising agency, would consider relocating to the UK as a direct result of the Budget?

[Harriett Baldwin]

Those sentiments were echoed by businesses in my constituency, where entrepreneurs welcomed and cheered the measures set out in the Budget. I also received a communication from a non-dom in west Worcestershire—I did not think we had one, but we do. He is so pleased with the clarity of the Budget that he is going to bring lots of money in on a remittance basis to invest in businesses in the UK.

I have a couple of questions for those on the Front Bench. I do not think that we can enjoy sustained economic growth until we resolve the problems with our banks. I agree with the hon. Member for Telford (David Wright), who said that Japan suffered from slow growth for many decades because it did not do anything about its banking sector. The sooner we get rid of the state’s ownership of so much of the banking sector, the better it will be for the health of the economy.

Given that the Financial Secretary is on the Front Bench, I will take this opportunity to read a passage from the Budget speech:

“from April, we are going to impose a moratorium exempting all businesses employing fewer than 10 people, and all genuine start-ups, from new domestic regulation for the next three years.”—[Official Report, 23 March 2011; Vol. 525, c. 956.]

I ask the Financial Secretary to raise this point with the Financial Services Authority, which we know is the regulator of many small, independent financial advisers. I suggest that he take this opportunity to suggest that small IFAs employing fewer than 10 people might be exempt from the increased regulation in the retail distribution review.

In conclusion, I believe that this Budget will be seen as historically pivotal, because it will create real jobs, real growth and real prosperity. Such real prosperity can come only from investment in business and from exports. There will be exogenous growth—the exogenous growth of the private sector. I look forward to supporting the Budget in the Lobby tomorrow.

Fuel Prices

Harriett Baldwin Excerpts

Tuesday 15th February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

Good morning, Mr Turner, and I offer a warm welcome to what appears to be a very well attended debate. I am delighted to have secured this debate, and I am particularly pleased about its timing, which is before the Budget on 23 March.

This debate is timely, because it examines the impact of fuel duty, particularly in remote rural communities such as those in North Yorkshire. I will just set the scene by outlining the prices as of yesterday, 14 February 2011. People would be hard pressed to buy unleaded petrol in Thirsk, Malton or Filey for less than £1.30 a litre, and they would be hard pressed to buy a litre of diesel for less than £1.36 a litre.

I want to spend some time outlining the impact of these prices on rural communities, and I also want to set out why I fear that the diesel duty differential is affecting rural communities so harshly. Finally, I want to discuss the options to address this issue.

It is no secret that oil prices have reached a record high—barrel prices have reached $100. The fuel duty and VAT element of petrol prices both impact on drivers and as many people regard those elements as a form of double taxation, their effect on petrol prices is highly inflationary. It is generally thought that 20% of the running costs of a truck are accounted for by the cost of fuel duty at this time.

There is a high dependence on cars in rural areas, where we have limited public transport and where the car is a necessity for many people, particularly the elderly, those on fixed incomes and those with young families. In the words of the AA, in rural areas those on lower incomes are already being priced out of the market.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this extremely important debate. I represent a rural area myself. Does she agree that there are so few petrol stations in rural areas that the existing rural petrol stations can charge much higher prices than petrol stations in towns?

[Miss McIntosh]

The problem is that the sale of fuel in rural areas tends to be less per vehicle. I have learned that people tend to “tank up” for two or three weeks at a time. That has an impact, as rural petrol stations do not face the competition for customers that exists in urban areas.

A particular concern for North Yorkshire is that we have had extremely adverse weather this winter, particularly in November and December, and in addition we have a particular reliance on 4x4 vehicles. I want to declare an interest, in that I run a partial 4x4 vehicle to ensure that I can access parts of my constituency that I would otherwise be unable to reach. We know that 4x4 vehicles are more fuel-efficient than they were in the past. However, for the reasons that I have given, diesel prices at the petrol pump are higher than they were in the past.

In preparing for this debate, I was surprised by diesel prices in the UK. I had understood that they were the second highest in Europe. In fact, the helpful note provided by the Library for this debate shows that the UK has the highest diesel prices in the EU, despite a pre-tax price that is among the lowest in the EU. The differences in diesel duty rates in EU countries are incredibly stark compared with those for petrol. In some member states, where there are lower diesel duty rates, the diesel discount is nearly 50%. By contrast, the diesel duty rate in the UK is 18p a litre, or 47%, higher than in any other EU country and more than 25p, or 80%, above the simple average for the other 26 member states. It is shocking that the higher cost is passed on to those of us who live in rural areas.

National Insurance Contributions Bill

Harriett Baldwin Excerpts

Thursday 13th January 2011 Commons Chamber

Well, let us change this law. This is the opportunity to do so.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

I am fascinated to hear the right hon. Gentleman make these points, because I do not remember you proposing a national insurance cut. Indeed, you went to the polls with a national insurance increase.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. I was not in the Treasury. I am getting a lot of your blame, and I do not like it.

Bank Bonuses

Harriett Baldwin Excerpts

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Osborne]

The Cabinet is completely agreed. [Interruption.] I know that the Labour party finds the idea of a united Cabinet difficult, but there is a united Cabinet that wants to see the banks lending more than they did under the previous Government and paying less in bonuses than they did under the previous Government, with more transparency, more shareholder involvement and more contributions to the community. That is what we seek to negotiate and I am doing that with the Business Secretary on behalf of the Cabinet.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

Last year, there was a one-off tax on bank bonuses. Can the Chancellor confirm that this year the higher bonuses will attract the 50% income tax and 12.8% employers’ national insurance rates?

[Mr Osborne]

Of course it is right that they attract both income tax and employers’ national insurance contributions. I know there is an issue with the economic credibility of the Labour party at the moment but it is worth reading what the previous Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), said when he explicitly and directly addressed the question of whether the tax he introduced a year ago could be reintroduced in exactly the same form. He said that it would be difficult to do and that it would have to be a one-off because people would find all sorts of imaginative ways of avoiding it in future. We have to deal with that reality, but as I have made very clear, we seek a new settlement with the banks and if we do not agree a new settlement—if they are not able to meet our requirements—then nothing is off the table.

Cabinet Office

Harriett Baldwin Excerpts

Tuesday 21st December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

May I, too, associate myself with the kind remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) in passing on good wishes to everyone at this time of year?

I wish to discuss the West Lothian question, which, as I am sure all hon. Members appreciate, is the nickname given to the situation post-devolution in which MPs here at Westminster who represent Welsh, Northern Irish or Scottish constituencies may find themselves able to vote on matters that do not affect their own constituents.

In West Worcestershire, which I think of as being the heart of the heart of England, this issue is being raised increasingly frequently with me. Recently, I took part in a television debate, where the reporter had been to the border between Shropshire and Powys. Located on the border is a village called Chirk, which is divided. On one side of the town prescriptions are free and on the other side they cost £7.20. The differences do not end there, because the village might also be divided over matters such as university tuition fees and other services where the Welsh Assembly Government might treat their residents differently. Do not get me wrong, I am a big supporter of devolution and the process of localism that we are going through. It represents enormous progress. I am also a big supporter of the Union, but it does not mean that the West Lothian question can be swept under the carpet for ever.

The manifesto on which I was elected said:

“Labour have refused to address the so-called ‘West Lothian Question’: the unfair situation”

of Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs voting on matters that do not necessarily affect their constituents. It continued by saying that we

“will introduce new rules so that legislation referring specifically to England, or to England and Wales, cannot be enacted without the consent of MPs representing constituencies of those countries.”

I completely acknowledge that during the five days in May, when the coalition’s programme for government was put together, the pledge was somewhat changed, and a commission has been called for to look into the question.

On 26 October, I was able to ask the Deputy Prime Minister in the Chamber for an update on when the commission might be established, and he replied:

“My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, who has responsibility for constitutional affairs, will lead on that and he will announce our intention to set up a commission on the long-standing knotty problem of the West Lothian question by the end of the year.”—[Official Report, 26 October 2010; Vol. 517, c. 154.]

Last week, however, my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Simon Kirby) received a written answer from the same Parliamentary Secretary, to the effect that the Government are

“continuing to give careful consideration to the timing, composition, scope and remit of the commission. Its work will need to take account of our proposals to reform the House of Lords to create a wholly or mainly elected second chamber, the changes being made to the way this House does business and amendments to the devolution regimes, for example in the Scotland Bill presently before the House. We will make an announcement in the new year.”—[Official Report, 15 December 2010; Vol. 520, c. 822W.]

So my first question for the Department is: will the Government clarify which part of the new year that is likely to be, and confirm that the new year referred to is, indeed, 2011?

I should like to use this opportunity to preview my private Member’s Bill. I was lucky enough to be placed seventh in the ballot, and the Bill has its Second Reading on Friday 11 February. It has the innocuous title of the Legislation (Territorial Extent) Bill, and from my research into the West Lothian question I have found that the challenge is to get around parliamentary privilege. We are all elected to this place equally, and we can all have an equal say and vote on all issues, and we certainly do not want to have two categories of MP.

Many much more distinguished brains than mine have wrestled with that knotty problem. In 2000, Lord Norton of Louth looked into the matter and came up with some proposals; in 2006, my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Mr Walter) had a private Member’s Bill on the issue; and Lord Baker of Dorking had a Bill in the Lords in 2005. The current Prime Minister then asked the now Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), to look into the issue.

It might be possible to use Standing Orders and Speaker certification to identify which Bills affect which parts of the UK. My private Member’s Bill simply calls on draft legislation to identify and outline which parts of the UK it affects. It is a simple piece of preparatory, enabling legislation, and I urge all hon. Members who share an interest in the matter to come to me with their ideas. My second question is: will the Government be able to support my private Member’s Bill?

Independent Financial Advisers (Regulation)

Harriett Baldwin Excerpts

Monday 29th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

All I can say is “Wow!” when I see how many colleagues and Opposition Members have shown up this evening to take part in this historic debate. I believe this is the first time in this Chamber that the Financial Services Authority, which was set up by the former Prime Minister as the independent statutory regulator, has been subject to such parliamentary scrutiny. In fact, I believe that we are today showing that we can, and do, take a real interest in what the independent statutory regulator is doing.

The Chairman of the Treasury Committee pointed out how many Members are in the Chamber this evening for a Back-Bench business debate, when we are not obliged to be here by anyone other than the constituents who have contacted us with their concerns.

[Alun Cairns]

I support what my hon. Friend said about the number of Members present this evening, which is unusual, as she pointed out. The indication so far is that this is a cross-party issue and that party politics is not playing a part in it. The comments from the Opposition Benches support the comments made in the debate.

[Harriett Baldwin]

I entirely agree. We have learned in the past few years how important good financial regulation is.

Imagine the outrage there would be in the Chamber if a Minister said from the Dispatch Box, “I am going to put between 20 and 30% of an industry out of business at the stroke of my pen on 1 January 2013”? It is unbelievable that we have allowed an organisation to grow and, unscrutinised by this legislative body, have such a power over our constituents’ lives.

[Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

Does not my constituent, Mike Ward of Ward Financial Services, have a point when he says: “People need to understand that business has changed in recent years. People won’t trust banks as much as they did in the past, so they must be careful not to undermine the relationship between themselves and their clients. That would not be the right way forward”?

[Harriett Baldwin]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. It is the banks that are likely to be advantaged by the change in regulations. I am afraid I have only six minutes in which to raise the many questions that I have about the regulation. I shall focus on a couple of areas that my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) did not touch on much in his remarks, which were extremely comprehensive.

I want to hear more about the handing of a competitive advantage to the banks. It is my understanding from my discussion with the Financial Services Authority that banks that are trading overseas could come into this country and continue to offer advice. The European Union is about to consult on something called the directive for packaged retail investment products. It would be wise for the FSA to wait and see the results of the consultation before it takes permanent steps here to put out of business 20% of independent financial advisers.

I have also heard through the Westminster Hall debate that my hon. Friend the Minister has talked about the free annual financial health check that the Consumer Financial Education Body will be able to offer. I want to hear more tonight from the Minister about how that will be delivered and what the additional cost to the industry through the social responsibility levy will be. Has that additional cost to the industry been factored into the £1.7 billion that is the five-year cost of the retail distribution review?

For the remaining four minutes at my disposal, I shall focus on my main area of concern, which has been raised by colleagues—the question of the qualifications. Imagine if nurses who were qualified were suddenly told that from now on, nursing was to be a degree-level qualification, and that all existing nurses would have to pass that degree-level qualification or they would not be able to practise their profession. That is what is happening to our independent financial advisers.

If I thought that passing an exam would prevent mis-selling and we would never have another incidence of mis-selling in future, I would be more supportive of the idea, but I do not see that an ability to pass an exam, which someone in their 20s might be much better at—certainly, I was—than by the time they get into their 50s and 60s, when they have all that experience about financial advice, precludes mis-selling in the future.

I can offer a few examples. We have been inundated with correspondence on the issue, but a couple of important examples stand out. One adviser wrote to me who is already qualified to chartered financial planner status. He is an associate of the Chartered Insurance Institute, which maps across to a degree-level qualification, but with the FSA’s new standards, it appears that there will be gaps. If advisers with such a qualification do not fill those gaps in the two years available, they will no longer have a livelihood in the industry. That is blatantly retrospective regulation.

Another important example that was brought to my attention was a letter from the chief executive of a friendly society based in Cleveland on Teesside. The case may be raised in the debate; I hope so. The chief executive wrote to me explaining that his door-to-door sales force who sell funeral policies for £1 a week and life policies for up to £5 a week will now be required to take the degree-level qualification. As such, he felt that his friendly society with its 10,000 low-income customers would have to shut it doors. May I urge the Minister to try to influence the independent statutory regulator to be more respectful of experience as a qualification?

[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Lady agree with this statement: it is one thing to impose new rules on new entrants to the IFA profession; it is quite another thing to disqualify someone who is already qualified?

[Harriett Baldwin]

Indeed. I understand that there is to be an alternative-based assessment. The Minister mentioned it in the Westminster Hall debate, but I want to try to make sure that he works closely with the FSA to publicise that route more extensively, and that he works with the FSA perhaps to soften the cliff-edge of disqualification on 1 January 2013. We all want to see better qualified financial advisers, no question about it, but to close the door on financial advisers practising their profession on 1 January 2013 is not on.

In conclusion, financial advisers face a triple whammy. We have heard about some of the other issues, but the one that we would all see as being the most illogical is the one about qualifications. As the Government go through the process of changing the way the FSA operates, I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to change the way the FSA regulates the sector.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nia Griffith]

Indeed, there are certainly issues about the way in which the whole system has been set up and run, and about whether it can be worked properly. As the hon. Gentleman points out, to have so many people trying to take the exams in just two years is not particularly practical. The time scales are extremely tight, and the independent financial advisers have to book into the slots. Another problem, of course, is that they do not always pass the exams.

That brings me to the nature of the exams. As I have said, independent financial advisers already have certification, and I have seen some of the questions that they have to answer in order to gain that certification. Many of them seemed to require a very different kind of knowledge from the knowledge that the IFAs in my area usually need. Furthermore, IFAs are fully aware of their own shortcomings. They know that they have limitations, and that they will sometimes need to pass a client on to someone else for specialist advice.

One very experienced financial adviser in my area is a well respected member of the community who is very much involved in local town centre activities and in keeping the community alive. He recently failed one of these exams, however, which has knocked back his morale and that of a number of other financial advisers who know him. He failed the exam not because he was not perfectly capable of doing his job or because he lacked intelligence or experience. That seems only to confirm that the nature of the exams needs to be reconsidered. We also need to take into account the enormous amount of time that has to be put into them —400 hours has been mentioned, and that is probably the minimum—as well as the costs involved.

I know from experience of developing new examination schemes what happens in such circumstances. Everyone wants to put in their 5p worth and everyone wants extra questions on their area, and the whole thing develops until it becomes so big and unmanageable that no one could possibly want it as a syllabus. Another problem is that people are often terribly worried about being thought of as soft. They are worried that someone is going to tell them that standards are falling, so they decide to put in harder and harder questions to try to counteract that.

[Harriett Baldwin]

Have any of the hon. Lady’s constituents been able to observe how the qualifications might help to identify those independent financial advisers who might have a tendency to mis-sell, compared with those who might not?

[Nia Griffith]

My constituents have made clear to me that many of the questions do not bear much relation to what they do in their everyday work, and are certainly not a test of their integrity. That does not mean that they do not want regulation or do not like the idea of having proper qualifications and a respected profession, and it does not mean that we should abandon the RDR altogether. What those people are saying is that we should look at the detail again and create a workable system that can be respected and is a useful tool, rather than one rejected by the profession that will not help anyone in the long run because it will simply lead to an exodus that will have the impact on local communities that many Members have described.