Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Wednesday 13th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

My hon. Friend is passionate about this issue. He highlights the opportunity to enhance our tourism offer, and we will work with him to try to secure that. The regalia should be in Wales; it should be on display to contribute to our vibrant tourism sector.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

4. What recent discussions he has had with the Welsh Government on a legislative consent motion for the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Wednesday 6th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

Having read the Hendry review, I am aware of the technology’s possible benefits to industry across the UK. That is why we are giving such serious consideration to the report produced by Charles Hendry.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Community hydro schemes throughout Wales have faced business rates increases of up to 900%. In Scotland there is 100% relief and in England there is a cap, but Labour Ministers in Wales are sitting on their hands. I am told that the basic problem is made here in London because of the regulations. Will the Minister meet me and representatives of the sector to seek a full and quick solution?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman’s constituency, like mine, has a number of hydro projects, and I would be more than delighted to meet him to discuss where the problems lie. My understanding is that the problems lie in Cardiff, with the Labour Government, but I am more than happy to meet the hon. Gentleman to make sure that we deal with this.

Queen’s Speech: Implications for Wales

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Wednesday 19th July 2017 Westminster Hall

[Hywel Williams]

As the Minister has said, the bulk of the Queen’s Speech is about exiting the European Union. Is he confident that the economy, foreign affairs and a whole host of other issues will get the attention they require while we spend our time discussing the minutiae of the regulations on fish fingers or whatever?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. It is imperative that all of us try to ensure that while we deal with this complex issue in a constructive manner, we also do not take our eye off the day job. I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman’s comment.

The European Union (Withdrawal) Bill was introduced in the Queen’s Speech. The aim is to provide certainty and continuity to businesses, workers and consumers in Wales and across the UK as we leave the European Union. The aim of the Bill is to fulfil the Government’s promise to end the supremacy of EU law in the UK by repealing the European Communities Act 1972, removing the supremacy of EU law and returning control to the UK. That is the only way for the UK to leave the European Union and ensure that our future laws are made in London, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast.

That is an important point. We have talked about this so-called power grab, and I assure hon. Members that there is no intention whatever of a power grab. The first person to talk of the importance of UK frameworks as we leave the European Union was none other than Carwyn Jones, First Minister of Wales. I agree. We do not want to find ourselves in a situation where we leave the EU single market and damage the UK single market. The whole point of frameworks within any future settlement is to ensure that the UK market and the UK system work on the basis of equality between businesses and individuals across the United Kingdom. Although I am not surprised that the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) and the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Deidre Brock), who represents the Scottish National party, would disagree, it is fair to say that I am surprised that the Labour party, which claims to be a Unionist party, seems to be very annoyed at the prospect of having rules that apply across the United Kingdom agreed across the United Kingdom as part of the withdrawal process.

It is clear that withdrawing from the European Union and repealing the European Communities Act 1972 will leave a large hole in our statute book. We therefore have to ensure that there is no cliff edge on the day that we leave the European Union. Part of the intention of the legislation is to ensure that the body of law is incorporated into UK law, which will be known as EU retained law, to ensure that on the day after departure, businesses, consumers and so forth will be in a situation of certainty, knowing that the rules and regulations that applied on the day before we left the European Union apply the day after we leave. That is an effort to ensure continuity, which will be absolutely crucial.

As the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) highlighted in a passionate speech—I agreed with every single word, I must say—the certainty that businesses require in our departure from the European Union means that the regulations currently in place as part of EU law need to be in place as part of our own law, on the basis of continued EU legislation within the UK. We are trying to ensure that the issues raised about Bridgend are dealt with as we leave.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Wednesday 26th April 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

The UK, including Wales, remains the same outward-looking, globally minded country we have always been. International businesses, such as Aston Martin, choose to invest in Wales as a result of the great work done by the Department for International Trade and the Wales Office, working hand in glove with the Welsh Government. That shows that Wales continues to be a great investment destination.

[Hywel Williams]

Welsh food and drink exports to the European Union will face eye-watering tariffs on leaving the single market. Will the Minister simply guarantee that, as part of a World Trade Organisation deal, the home market will not be flooded with cheap food imports such as Australian sheepmeat?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is again guilty of peddling scare stories. The fact of the matter is that when it comes to lamb, for example, New Zealand currently does not even meet its quota to the European Union—only 70% of the New Zealand quota is currently maintained. He should have some confidence in Welsh agricultural produce, rather than talking down the prospects of the economy.

[Hywel Williams]

I would have a great deal more confidence if the Minister answered the question. On Monday I visited one of the largest and most successful high-tech businesses in Wales, which told me that, post-Brexit, it is hoping against hope to be able to export to its European partners, as at present, without all the red tape and expense of being outside the customs union. Why are this hard-Brexit Government so determined to make life more difficult for our key exporters?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman again highlights the negativity that surrounds the issue, but it is a negativity that I do not recognise, that is not recognised by businesses in Wales and that is certainly not highlighted by the investment decisions made by businesses in Wales. Businesses in Wales are investing and are looking to a global future. We will secure the greatest possible access to European markets, although we are also looking to global trade deals that will ensure Wales is part of global growth as well as maintaining European markets.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Wednesday 19th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

In a Twitter message to me, the director of BT in Wales said that the

“vast majority of rural Wales, including Arfon, can already access superfast broadband”.

Does the Minister agree with her?

[Guto Bebb]

The “vast majority” is perhaps overstating the case, but the improvement over recent months has been spectacular, with rates of 90%-plus in many rural counties. There is still more work to be done, but in terms of rural broadband we are going in the right direction in Wales and the UK.

[Hywel Williams]

The main superfast broadband line passes the community of Crymlyn in my constituency, literally at the bottom of the people’s gardens. Many of these people run businesses from home and need to access substantial documents, but the download speed in Crymlyn would be an embarrassment even in the previous century. When will the Minister, or his Labour confederates in Cardiff, actually do something to remove this huge barrier to prosperity and economic growth?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware of the investment in his own constituency, which is approaching £12 million. There are still issues in relation to broadband roll-out in Wales, but sometimes we have to recognise that what has been achieved is tremendous. We are slightly ahead of the situation in England, which is something we should all applaud. However, I make no bones about the fact that more and faster broadband connectivity in Wales is crucial. The Wales Office will carry on pressurising BT Openreach to ensure that that is achieved sooner rather than later.

Wales Bill

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Monday 12th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman represents a constituency with a number of television producers who produce television programmes for S4C. Can he name a single one who has asked for S4C to be devolved to the competency of the Welsh Assembly?

[Hywel Williams]

No, of course not. This is Plaid Cymru’s policy and this is the argument that has been made by various highly respected academic commentators, and others for that matter. [Interruption.] The Minister starts from the business end; I start from the governance end. The governance of S4C and how it should be regulated should be a matter for the Welsh Government. The argument is in the nature of the beast. It is S4C—Sianel Pedwar Cymru. It is broadcasting in Welsh in Wales: why should not the Welsh Government have responsibility? The case is unanswerable.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hywel Williams]

The television landscape has certainly changed enormously. Many broadcasters are now running a great number of repeats. The point about Welsh language television is that it has a purpose beyond just providing entertainment, or even informing or educating: it is there as part of the national project to sustain, speaking in dramatic terms, the rescue of the language.

[Guto Bebb]

I cannot allow the slur from the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) to go unresponded to. A significant proportion of the repeats on S4C are children’s programmes. As the father of five children, I am aware that the more repeats there are, the more they enjoy them.

[Hywel Williams]

Responding also as the father of five children, I would say that repeats of “Cyw” are very popular in my house.

The report of the Institute of Welsh Affairs, “The UK’s Changing Union”, called for full responsibility for S4C to be transferred to the National Assembly and thus to the Welsh Government. Plaid Cymru Members are of the firm belief that Wales should have full control over a channel that belongs to and serves the Welsh people. We should determine its future. The Secretary of State said last week that he will continue to do everything he can to ensure the channel’s continued success, and I take him at his word—I am sure that he meant it very sincerely. Conservative Members claim to have devolution at the core of their world view. “Cut out the mandarins!”, they cry. “The user”, or the customer even, “is king—take it as low as it can go—and not those dratted men in Whitehall.” If so, is not the control of a medium that serves Wales and Wales alone best placed in the hands of the people that it serves? I look forward with interest to hearing the Secretary of State justify this peculiar inconsistency on the issue.

Amendment 66 was tabled following concerns expressed to us by the Welsh Language Commissioner regarding the Bill’s potential effect on the National Assembly’s powers to legislate on matters pertaining to the Welsh language. A possible effect of schedule 2 is that should the National Assembly wish to legislate for the Welsh language, it would require the consent of the relevant UK Minister to confer, impose, modify or remove within that legislation the Welsh language functions of Ministers of the Crown, Government Departments, and other reserved authorities.

Under the current settlement, ministerial consent is required only when legislating to impose Welsh language functions on Ministers of the Crown. The ministerial consent provisions of the Wales Bill in relation to the Welsh language appear to apply to a wider range of persons than is currently the case, which would be more restrictive. I would be interested to hear the Secretary of State’s explanation or justification for that.

Let us consider a practical example. The Welsh Language Commissioner has already engaged in the statutory processes that would result in placing a duty on bodies such as Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, the Crown Prosecution Service, Ofcom and the BBC to adopt Welsh language standards. Our amendment would remove the requirement for ministerial consent for Acts of the Assembly affecting functions of reserved authorities, public authorities and Ministers where the Act of the Assembly relates to a Welsh language function. I am sure that the House will agree that that provision is fair and reasonable, given that the Welsh language is, quintessentially, a devolved issue.

[Guto Bebb]

I suspect that I can offer clarity and reassurance on this issue. There is nothing in the Bill that will affect the Welsh language retrospectively. For example, any standards imposed on a public body as a result of the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 will still be imposed by the Welsh Language Commissioner, with no effect as a result of changes in this Bill. If a future Welsh Language Measure were to be proposed, then it would have an effect, but that takes us back to the issue of democratic accountability. After all, the Welsh language is not only the language of Wales; it should also be the responsibility of this House. On the hon. Gentleman’s concerns, there is nothing in the Bill that will affect the 2011 Measure and the way in which standards are imposed under it.

[Hywel Williams]

I accept that the Minister sincerely holds that view. I am reflecting on the arguments put forward by the Welsh Language Commissioner.

[Guto Bebb]

I met the Welsh Language Commissioner in August. We have subsequently written to her, highlighting the fact that the concerns raised in relation to the operation of the 2011 Measure have no grounds. In other words, the 2011 Measure is not affected by the Bill. There will be an impact if a subsequent Welsh Language Measure is passed by the Welsh Assembly, but it does not affect the way in which the legislation—

Wales Bill

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Monday 11th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams]

Perhaps this is a mischievous point, but may I ask the Minister this: if 350MW and over is “strategic”, was 50MW and over strategic in the past? If so, what has changed?

[Guto Bebb]

It should be stated that a former Secretary of State for Wales and former leader of this party had long argued that there was a need to look at a higher limit. It is fair to say that the process of devolution is an ongoing one, and it is highly unreasonable to criticise the fact that we are moving towards a situation where very large developments of hydro power in north Wales could be decided upon in Cardiff.

Wales Bill

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Tuesday 14th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

It is a pleasure to close today’s debate and to follow the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones), who made a passionate speech, highlighting and reminding us of the Labour Members who fought for devolution over the years. I am quite certain that most of those Labour Members would have been very supportive of this Wales Bill. I can offer my sympathetic support to the argument that the Welsh Grand Committee should be able to use the Welsh language, but as a Back Bencher I was not a very keen attendee of that Committee, so it might not be a power that I would use.

This has been an important and constructive debate. Although Members on both sides of the House have criticised what is in the Bill, it would be fair to say that there is a general feeling of support for it. I sometimes deplore the fact that the BBC argues that if it is attacked by people on both sides of an argument, it must be doing something right. However, having heard the speeches by the hon. Members for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) and for Arfon (Hywel Williams) on the one hand and my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Chris Davies) on the other, I somehow feel as though I am a member of the BBC in saying that if those two sides of the argument are both unhappy, we must clearly be doing something right.

It is important to touch on some of the main issues identified as changes to the draft Wales Bill, and it is important to note that when we published the draft Bill back in the autumn of 2015, the Wales Office was more than willing to allow for a period of pre-legislative scrutiny. That should not be seen as a weakness; it is a strength, reflecting how this place works. Many of the criticisms have been taken on board. Some were perhaps too strong or ill-conceived, but the Bill is stronger as a result of that pre-legislative scrutiny. I pay tribute to members of the Welsh Affairs Committee who did the hard work of carefully considering the Bill clause by clause, and to the Committee Chair, who has done a fantastic job. His speech today was incredibly constructive, and he highlighted some people’s concerns, while also ensuring that they understand the genuine feeling that the aim of the Bill across the House is to make the devolution settlement work.

The change to a reserved powers model is important and fundamental, but I take issue with comments made by some Members, not least the hon. Members for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) and for Arfon, who highlighted time and again the important fact that the Bill does not propose a settlement that is identical to that in Scotland. When I was growing up, the “Encyclopaedia Britannica” in our house—I think it was owned by my grandmother—stated clearly, “For Wales, see England”. It appears that some criticism of the Bill from Plaid Cymru Members basically states, “For Wales, see Scotland”, which ignores the fundamental differences between the Scottish situation and the historical settlement there, and what we are trying to create in Wales. A settlement identical to the one in Scotland is not necessarily the right way to go, and it would not necessarily create a settlement that is fair to Wales and right in that context.

[Hywel Williams]

The Minister referred to the first edition of the “Encyclopaedia Britannica”, which said, “For Wales, see England”, but the real scandal is that when someone looked under England, there was virtually nothing about Wales. Our point is that a great deal in Scotland is pertinent to Wales.

[Guto Bebb]

As some Members have said, successive Secretaries of State have highlighted the fact that the latest change to the Welsh devolution settlement will end the issue once and for all, but I genuinely think that this Bill will create a long-standing settlement. I remind the hon. Gentleman that when the Welsh devolution settlement was voted for by the people of Wales back in 1999, it was welcomed by the then leader of Plaid Cymru as a significant change to the Welsh situation. We must recognise how far the devolution settlement in Wales has travelled since that point.

The hon. Members for Arfon, for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds), for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) and for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) highlighted the reserved powers model and the number of reservations, but those reservations have been put in place to move from a conferred powers model to a reserved powers model. The number of reservations has been reduced, although there is an argument about whether they should have been reduced by a larger amount, and I am certain that there will be an opportunity in Committee to reconsider some of the elements that have been reserved. I say to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr that I am pleased to offer a full two days of Committee with protected hours, which I hope will be sufficient to ensure his support for the time allocated for the Bill.

Media Plurality (Wales)

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Tuesday 13th October 2015 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb]

Indeed, I was going to touch on that. It is significant that Wales has a track record of a strong regional press, although it could be argued that it has been subject to far too much centralisation of ownership. There is a vibrant local press in Wales, but I checked the figures with the Library this morning, and, as far as I am aware, not a single one of our newspapers is showing an increase in sales. Some declining sales are truly worrying. In my constituency, the North Wales Weekly News has given up on its valley edition. It still produces two editions for the coast, but sales are falling.

The Caernarfon & Denbigh Herald was immortalised in a pop song by a group called Y Cynghorwyr, who argued that it says it in the Caernarfon & Denbigh so it must be true: “Mae o’n dweud yn y Caernarfon & Denbigh, y papur sy’n dweud y gwir”. For a newspaper to be immortalised in a pop song but suddenly find its sales falling below 9,000 must be a concern for the regional press. Yes, there is a regional press that can take up the slack, and there is no doubt that, for example, the regional press in north Wales has been at the forefront of the issue when it comes to concerns about the A55 or the health service, but is it in a position to respond positively as sales fall dramatically? I suspect not.

The Institute of Welsh Affairs recently did some media monitoring and found that between 1999 and 2013 the number of journalists working in the local and national press in Wales—I will call the Daily Post and the Western Mail a national press—went from 700 to around 110 or 115. That fall is significant. In my constituency I have first-class journalists who work for both the Weekly News and the Daily Post. They might cover an issue in Llandudno in the morning and then be in another constituency covering a different issue for the Daily Post in the afternoon. They are multi-tasking in order to keep the show on the road. I am not sure whether, in the long term, that will result in the vibrant culture we need for discussion of what is going on in Wales.

There is no denying that the decline has resulted in cuts that, it could be argued, reduce the appeal of the regional press. On Sunday, I was delighted to see the Daily Post print a Sunday edition for the first time in its history. It says a lot about this debate, as the purpose of that edition, on which I warmly congratulate the Daily Post, was to celebrate Welsh sporting success after the Welsh rugby and football teams qualified. I must add that both teams qualified after losing, but that did not stop the Daily Post making a big issue of the success of our Welsh sporting heroes—good for them for doing so. I would be delighted to see the Daily Post appearing again Sunday in future. Nevertheless, that masks the real situation, because there is a decline in the regional press and in our two main daily titles in Wales, resulting in the dominance of public discourse in Wales by the broadcast media, which probably means the BBC in the form of BBC 1 and S4C news content, and Radio Cymru on Radio Wales.

Before I turn to the dominance of the BBC, it is worth mentioning people’s expectations and hopes for online media as an alternative. There is no doubt that the Daily Post and the Western Mail have dramatically increased their online content. The BBC provides a sterling service in trying to cover Wales online in both languages, but I have concerns, as well as hope. For all its faults, the Welsh Assembly has at least recognised the importance of some degree of alternative plurality in Welsh news gathering. Golwg360 is a second online news provider that has been made possible through Welsh Government funding, and I welcome it as a response to the need for diversity in online news. As a Welsh speaker, I welcome the fact that I am able to turn to the BBC and to Golwg360 and find that the content is not always the same—it is often significantly different—but if we acknowledge that there has been a market failure in the provision of plural voices in Welsh online, we should also recognise that there is an issue with online provision in English.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern about the quality of online content? I am heartily sick of reading 20 things I wanted to know—or did not want to know—about some celebrity, some aspect of our geography or whatever.

[Guto Bebb]

I tend to agree. There is always a question of quality, although when MPs are asked to provide 20 facts about themselves they seem quite happy to do so.

Palestine

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Monday 1st December 2014 Westminster Hall

[Hywel Williams]

I entirely agree. We need to promote discussion, and that is one way of taking it forward. We need to give international legitimacy to the Palestinian people and reaffirm their right to land.

The UK Government and Governments throughout Europe and the world should recognise Palestine; otherwise, there will be no end to the blockade or the conflict, last summer’s war will be reignited and the tragic process will repeat itself on both sides. That is why I voted in favour of the motion in October calling for recognition. I said that the UK had a special responsibility as the immediate former imperial power, as a permanent member of the UN Security Council, as a guarantor of the Geneva convention and given our recent disastrous interventions in middle east affairs.

Hon. Members will recall that the vote in favour of the motion was 274 to 12. I was glad of the opportunity to restate Plaid Cymru’s position on the matter. I have also welcomed the decision by my local authority, Gwynedd county council, not to invest in or trade with Israel.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

I actually live in the Gwynedd county council area, and I am fascinated by the fact that a majority of Plaid Cymru members voted to boycott Israel. However, the last time I contacted the local authority, it was still using IT systems using Israeli technology.

[Hywel Williams]

I am glad to hear from my constituent. That was the stance taken by Gwynedd county council, and that is the stance it will implement. It is clearly right to stop trade with illegal settlements, rather than just condemning their establishment. I hope the leadership shown by Gwynedd county council will encourage other councils in Wales and across the UK to do the same. I ask the Minister to back moves to stop trade with settlements and to follow the example of the Spanish Government by stopping the arms trade with Israel.

Wales Bill

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Tuesday 24th June 2014 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams]

With all due respect to right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken today, I would like to begin with a quote that, for me, exceeds anything that has been heard today for eloquence:

“The will of the people is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object.”

I quote that in support of our new clause 3, which stands in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd). The quote comes from Thomas Jefferson, third President of the United States, primary author of the declaration of independence and, as I am sure the Western Mail would remind us, one of 16 of the 56 signatories to the declaration who were of Welsh extraction. Jefferson’s argument is that the validity of any Government is bound up with their purpose of representing the will of the people. That could also claim to be the primary motive behind our new clause 3.

In Committee, we in Plaid Cymru tabled amendments, as my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr said earlier, that would grant further powers to the National Assembly, including the power for it to decide on the number of Assembly Members, change its name should it wish to do so, and make amendments to secure further financial powers. We were disappointed that more Members from other parties did not support those amendments, but this new clause encompasses them all.

We believe that decisions of this nature are better made when elected representatives have the backing of the people, and the most straightforward means of determining the will of the people on any particular subject is, of course, a referendum. New clause 3 would therefore give the National Assembly the power to hold binding referendums on issues already in its competence, and on questions relating to further transfers of constitutional or financial powers, such as those that have been proposed in respect of changes to income tax.

The National Assembly could ask the people of Wales questions such as how many Assembly Members they believe should sit in the Assembly, what the voting system should be, and whether new fields should be devolved if we do not get to the reserved powers model. That would give our people a clearer say in the Assembly’s decision-making process.

The Wales Bill allows for a referendum on the question of transferring to the Welsh Government power over 10% of income tax receipts, but the notion that there should be a new Bill in this place each time a referendum is needed on a reserved matter is convoluted, to say the least, and convoluted is not good: witness the wretched legislative competence order process. Plaid Cymru is not in favour of holding a referendum for the sake of it. For example, the transfer of minor taxes to Wales—as recommended by the Silk commission—without recourse to a referendum has set a precedent. We have argued that the planned referendum on income tax powers is not necessary, but circumstances will certainly arise in the future when holding a referendum will be the proper and practical way forward.

Unlike in other countries with written, codified constitutions, the transfer of such a power to Wales would require no official constitutional change; it could be done by an Order in Council. A recent precedent for that was signed into being by the Edinburgh agreement in 2012:

“The United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Government have agreed to work together to ensure that a referendum on Scottish independence can take place…the referendum should: have a clear legal base, be legislated for by the Scottish Parliament, be conducted so as to command the confidence of parliaments, governments and people, deliver a fair test and a decisive expression of the views of people in Scotland and a result that everyone will respect”—

an excellent set of principles. The agreement goes on:

“The governments have agreed to promote an Order in Council under Section 30 of the Scotland Act 1998 in the United Kingdom and Scottish Parliaments to allow a single-question referendum on Scottish independence to be held before the end of 2014.”

There we have the basis for a referendum for Scotland and, I would argue, the basis for a power of referendum for the Assembly. That Scottish agreement is valid for that one referendum, and no other referendum can be held under those specific terms unless they are renewed. Our new clause, however, would confer a continuing power to the Assembly.

According to a recent study published by the Political Studies Association, there have been 49 independence referendums worldwide, both official and unofficial, with an average turnout of 79%—far higher than the average turnout in UK general elections over past years. I point out that in democratic countries after 1945, the average yes vote in such referendums has been 62%. Not all those referendums have been recognised by national or state Governments; for example, in 1946 the Danish Government refused to recognise the result of an independence referendum in the Faroe Islands. After negotiation, however, the islands were granted what we would now call devo-max: all powers except foreign affairs and defence were devolved.

The independence referendum due to be held in Catalonia on 9 November this year is highly likely to produce a yes vote. I suspect, however, that it will be ignored by the Spanish Government on their current form, as that has been Madrid’s response to the rolling programme of non-binding local community referendums on that subject, which have been held in hundreds of towns and villages across Catalonia from September 2009, and in which a large majority voted for independence. Madrid has ignored those developments to its cost: witness the enormous pro-independence demonstration by 1.5 million people out of a population of 7.5 million in Barcelona in September 2012. That was a huge show of public opinion, interest and support—we are talking about 20% of the entire population—and it perhaps would not have been quite so huge but for Madrid’s intransigence. That is why the Edinburgh agreement is so significant, and why I believe that, precedents having been set, Wales should have that same power. My discussions with Catalonian friends, and the attitude of the Spanish Government, bear out the superiority of the situation in the UK and the Edinburgh agreement. At least it is clear, and all sides are to be congratulated on that.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

I am slightly confused about the argument. As the hon. Gentleman rightly points out, the situation in Madrid is one of Madrid refusing to recognise the right of the Catalonian Government to hold a referendum. The situation in Edinburgh is of an agreement between the UK and Scottish Governments, which showed that the two Governments could work positively together. The argument in favour of the new clause seems to be based on the failure of another Government in another country.

[Hywel Williams]

My remarks, which will appear in print tomorrow, will repay close reading, as that was precisely the argument I made. The position in Catalonia and the rest of Spain is far inferior to that in the UK, and I am pointing out the superiority of that Edinburgh agreement as the basis of my arguments for a legally binding system of referendums to be established for Wales.

In the UK, the important referendums and constitutional changes have occurred over the last 10 to 20 years, including the devolution referendum in 1979, the one in 1997, and the more recent referendum on our electoral system. In 2011, the people of Wales were asked in a referendum whether they wanted the Welsh Assembly to be given full and primary law-making powers; 63.5% of those polled voted yes. That stood in stark contrast to the results of earlier referendums that right hon. and hon. Members will remember. In 1979, for example, 79.7% voted against devolution; in 1999, there was a narrow majority of 50.3%, secured on a small turnout of 50.1%. That is how it was, but since then, I would argue that the people of Wales have grown to favour devolution, as have some right hon. and hon. Members in this place. The Assembly has grown in confidence, and as it gains further powers, it should surely have the power to ask the people of Wales what they think. That would be in the interest of legitimacy and accountability.

I referred to the Edinburgh agreement, and I suggest that a similar agreement in Wales should be called not “the Cardiff agreement” but “the Celyn clause”. This refers to Capel Celyn, which, Members will recall, was the village drowned in 1965 against the express wishes of elected and representative bodies throughout Wales—and, I understand, the wishes of every Welsh MP bar one. That was a transformational event in Welsh politics, and we have seen the effect of it over many decades. That effect is clear and provides a firm reminder of what can happen when the will of the people is so resolutely ignored. That is why we tabled new clause 3, giving the Assembly the right to hold legally binding referendums. I certainly commend it, but I assume that the matter will be discussed, possibly in greater detail, at some point in the future.

Let me make a few brief points about new clause 4. My Plaid Cymru colleagues and I have supported the reserved powers model for the National Assembly for a very long time. We are glad to see the Damascene conversion of the Labour Front-Bench team—better late than never! We certainly believe that this is the next step for our country; it would certainly clear up much of the confusion, not least in the minds of the public and others, as to the split of powers between the National Assembly and Westminster. I say to the Welsh public and others that I too often see people from the media refer to Assembly matters as if they were Westminster responsibilities, and vice-versa.

We in Plaid Cymru were, as I mentioned, against the LCO—legislative competence order—model, which so blighted the lives of those on the Welsh Affairs Committee and held up the pragmatic and practical transfer of the most innocuous of powers to the Welsh Government, as well as some rather more controversial powers. We wanted the boldest arrangements, but that was not forthcoming under the Government of Wales Act 2006—until the referendum. Circumstances have changed again, and the need for a move to a reserved powers model is even more pressing than before.

No one in this place or in the Assembly can be sanguine, given a recent survey showing how far we have failed as politicians to inform our constituents of the reality of the split in power. As I said, the media are far from blameless. Having said all that, it is disappointing that in the second part of their new clause 4, the hon. Members for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) and for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) have chosen to predicate any developments in relation to this matter on delaying the minor taxes. I must therefore view the new clause, I am afraid, as a delaying tactic at best, and as aimed at wrecking this part of the Bill at worst.

Pensions Bill

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Monday 17th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

No, I will not take another intervention for the time being.

We need to send out the same message about pension saving. We need to ensure that people understand that they will be offered a basic level of state pension as a result of the changes, but—this is where the communication issue highlighted by so many Members needs to come into play—that that basic state entitlement will not be sufficient for most people to have the standard of living that they anticipate. People will understand that that basic state level of support will be there, regardless of any further savings they make towards their own retirement pots. Anything and everything above the basic level will be additional and that, in my view, will change people’s behaviour, simply because they will no longer feel that they will be punished for trying to do the right thing.

The shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), gave some examples of where there would still be an element of means-testing in the system. We all regret that, but the truth is that we are moving significantly away from means-testing for pension provision. We should all applaud that because we want to ensure that people in work are encouraged to do the right thing, to do more for themselves and, at the same time, to save towards retirement. These are crucial changes that will change how the British public view the support offered by the state.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman about the virtue of making the system less complex and more understandable and about the requirements for better information that have already been mentioned by Members on both sides of the House. Will he concede, however, that there is a regional element? As a Welsh Member, he will know of the long-term mass unemployment in parts of our country that means that some people will just not have had the opportunity to amass the national insurance contributions required to qualify for the pension. That is a regional effect.

[Guto Bebb]

That will need to be considered. As I am well aware, parts of north Wales have long-term unemployment issues that might have an impact on the changes. We need to consider the detail, but the changes should still be welcomed. As I conceded in my opening remarks, some issues will need to be considered in Committee, but the overall direction of travel should be warmly welcomed, whether one is a Member in Wales or in any other part of the United Kingdom. A key point that should be mentioned is that there has been no mention from Government Members of a regional level of state pension. Having heard some of the comments from Opposition Members in recent weeks, I shudder to think what the Labour party might propose in due course on a regional level of basic state pension.

CPI/RPI Pensions Uprating

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Thursday 1st March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

Indeed. When people say that HSBC’s £14 billion profit is indefensible, I make the case that for somebody with a private pension, that profit is impressive because the greater the profits, the better the pension provision for people who are saving for their retirement.

The proposed changes have to be looked at in context. The triple lock should be welcomed. It has been semi-dismissed by Opposition Members today. They talk about the importance of the RPI link, but under the previous Government, the RPI link resulted in a 75p increase in the state pension. Under this Government, with the triple lock in place, the increase will be £5.35 in the coming financial year. Anybody who says that that change is not worth while should talk to pensioners in my constituency who are grateful for the additional £5.35 that they will receive.

We have also heard about the impact of the change from RPI to CPI on people in the public sector who are planning for their retirement. I heard about that at first hand when I took part in a phone-in programme on Radio Cymru. I was contacted by the headmaster of a very good school in the constituency of the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams). He stated that the changes were completely and utterly unacceptable because he would lose almost £80,000. People who called in to respond to that were flabbergasted that somebody could lose £80,000 as a result of the change, because it brought home to them the difference between the provision that they were able to pay for through their own saving and what was available in the public sector. The average private sector pension pot is £30,000. To hear of somebody losing £80,000 as a result of one technical change was shocking to the majority of people.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

How typical does the hon. Gentleman think that head teacher is of pensioners in my constituency, in which he lives, and of pensioners in his constituency, which is full of people on public sector pensions?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. Of course the individual in question is not typical, but I am afraid that the sense of entitlement he portrayed in that conversation is typical of a public sector that does not understand that the average wage is about £4,000 higher in the public sector than in the private sector, excluding pension provisions.

I am not attacking the public sector. I—and others—am trying to highlight the fact that public sector provision is significantly better than the provision for the majority of the population. In their changes to public sector provision, the Government are not attacking the concept of a defined benefit pension scheme. They are introducing proposals that will ensure the survival of defined benefit pensions. The truth is that we cannot carry on with a situation in which the majority of the population are expected to live in very difficult circumstances when they retire, yet their taxes are used to support unaffordable pension schemes.

By getting to grips with the need to change the retirement age and increase public sector workers’ contributions to their pension pots, the Government are putting their pensions on a more secure footing by ensuring that they will be available in the long term. They are also ensuring that the feeling of unfairness about the difference between private and public sector provision is reduced. Private sector workers will see that public sector workers are now making a greater contribution to their own pension provision. It will still be less than the taxpayer contribution, but it will be greater than before. In that context, I applaud what the Government are doing.

It is very difficult to accept the comments that Opposition Members make when we highlight the positive changes that the Government have made. Those who have spoken in the debate have said that the weaknesses that we point out in the Labour Government’s performance between 1997 and 2010 do not reflect their position. Clearly they do not reflect the position of the majority of Labour Members, because they are not here to defend their track record. I accept entirely that the Members who have spoken in the debate are genuine about wanting to protect RPI, but the majority of their fellow Labour Members are not here. For 13 years, when they could have done something about the decline of the UK pensions sector and private sector provision, they took no action.

One thing that really damages confidence is the fact that many people who saved in private sector pension funds remember being told that the raid on their pensions was to get young people back into work, yet we all know that youth unemployment was higher in 2010 than in 1997. Even the reason behind the raid on private sector provision was a failed policy of the Labour Government.

I wish to touch quickly on the unions’ decision to challenge the changes. I find it very difficult to understand why any changes to public sector provision are challenged in the High Court, yet people working for private companies have accepted changes as a necessary means of ensuring that they carry on getting the support that they want from their pension provision. For example, my best man works for HSBC. He left school to work there at 17 years old, and I told him he should not have done it. However, going to the bank was a job for life and he was happy to take the opportunity. He started off contributing nothing to his pension fund. Now, he contributes a significant percentage and carries on doing so because he values the fact that he will get a worthwhile pension. People working for a private company understand that they will have to contribute to the benefit that they will get. I do not understand why the unions cannot see that the same is true of public sector workers.

We should at least welcome the fact that the unions, in challenging the decision at the High Court, used their members’ funds for their proper purpose, which is to defend their members. They might have been mistaken, but at least they were using their members’ funds to try to change a policy that they perceived to be unfair. That is a big change, because most of the time they appear to use them to bankroll the Labour party.

It is important to point out that the Unite union, for example, which has been prominent in challenging the changes, contributed £5.2 million to the Labour party in 2010 and a further £2.6 million in the first three quarters of 2011. As Unite is such an influential funder of the Labour party, and as it was willing to take court action against the Government’s proposals to move from CPI to RPI, I wonder what influence it brought to bear on the Labour party when Labour decided to move its own staff’s pension provision from RPI to CPI. I would be delighted if Unite sent out a press release explaining how it fought against the Labour party’s internal decision to move from RPI to CPI, but I suspect that we will hear nothing.

Labour Members who signed the motion have been singularly unsuccessful in changing the Labour party’s position. That is a fundamental point. When it comes to the Labour party’s financial needs, we hear nothing, but when it comes to saying that the taxpayer should fund the difference, the Labour party is willing to protest and people are willing to sign motions.

I note that other parties support the motion, and that two Plaid Cymru Members have signed it. My understanding—I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong—is that the Labour party is moving towards defined pension provision based on CPI, not RPI, but that Plaid Cymru members of staff are in a money purchase scheme. Again, Plaid Cymru is happy to use taxpayers’ money to make a political point, but not willing to find the funding to protect its staff. That is the hypocrisy behind the motion, which I oppose.

Public Sector Pensions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Thursday 8th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams]

There is clearly a danger that some schemes will become unviable, which would mean that in the longer term those who no longer had pension schemes would become even more dependent on the state. I am sure that Government Members would not want that to happen.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

I am sure I heard the hon. Gentleman say that the 3% increase in pension contributions would target those least able to pay. I believe that the average public sector wage in Wales is about £26,400, compared with £21,700 in the private sector. Furthermore, do not the Government’s proposals protect those earning less than £15,000 a year?

[Hywel Williams]

That argument fails to take several factors into account, such as the 710,000 people who will lose their jobs and the 1% pay freeze that looms before us at a time when inflation is eating into the real value of wages.

Our constituents have gone on strike with the greatest reluctance. They are not the wild-eyed extremists so beloved of those on the Government Benches. Members of the National Association of Head Teachers—scarcely a hotbed of left-wing insurrection—went on strike last week for the first time in 140 years. Anna Brychan, director of the NAHT in Wales, summarised the arguments advanced by many public service workers who felt that they had no choice but to go on strike. I shall paraphrase what she said, because it was very lengthy. She said that the NAHT was not persuaded by the unsustainable and unaffordable argument. The pension changes in 2007-08, according to the figures from the National Audit Office, showed savings of 14%, but no re-evaluation has been made since the previous apparently permanent settlement. May I draw the attention of the House to my early-day motion 2198, which makes that point?

[Guto Bebb]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Hywel Williams]

I must press on, as I have rather a lot to say. Time is pressing, and it is a short debate. Of course, the hon. Gentleman can make his own speech, unless he has to leave the Chamber, but I give way.

[Guto Bebb]

Was not the individual whom the hon. Gentleman has just mentioned—Anna Brychan—once a member of Plaid Cymru who worked for the party in Cardiff?

[Hywel Williams]

So did the hon. Gentleman, before he jumped. I know him very well. He is a very nice man and is trying hard to be a nasty curmudgeon, but he is failing entirely.

Commission on Devolution in Wales

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman should be aware that the system was changed specifically as a result of pressure within Labour party. There was no call for such change from the Welsh public. It has been argued that change should be made as a result of demand from the Welsh people, and I recollect no such demand.

[Hywel Williams]

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will recall that that kind of dual mandate was allowed in Scotland. In fact, if my memory serves me correctly, I think that there was a Minister who held that kind of mandate when he was in the Labour Government there.

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that contribution. I do not doubt that his comment is accurate.

Another reason for welcoming the announcement is that it creates a cross-party and non-party commission, which is something very fresh and new in the Welsh context. As I have said, however, it will not work unless the people of Wales take an interest in the issue. I would therefore stress that we, as Members, need to go out and persuade our own electorate to take an interest in the commission and its work.

A second reason why we need to welcome the commission is the fact that although there have been numerous commissions and inquiries into the powers of the Welsh Assembly Government and how it should work, the Silk commission is different because it has been created by the Westminster Government. The Holtham commission produced a superb piece of work. I have read the documentation, and the arguments in the research are persuasive, showing that Wales has for several years suffered a degree of unfairness in the funding provided by central Government. The degree of unfairness was not as great as was claimed by Plaid Cymru Members, but the main point—that the Barnett formula was unfair—was, I think, proven by the report.

The Silk commission is different and more advantageous. Because it is a commission established by the coalition Government in Westminster, the ability to act on its findings is stronger. We are still waiting for the Holtham recommendations to be implemented, but our ability to act on the findings of the Silk commission is clear, which is another reason why we should welcome its establishment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. For clarity, let me say that I am previously on record as stating that the Holtham report was persuasive, and the sooner the recommendations were implemented the better—recognising, of course, the financial constraints faced by the Westminster Government. I hope that fully clarifies the matter.

Before I turn to the detail, let me say that when we talk about the process of devolution in the Welsh context, there is often a misunderstanding about exactly what the people of Wales are saying. Many Members will claim that the result of the referendum in March was a clear indication of the will of the people of Wales. Like many of my colleagues, I was surprised by the extent of the support for change, but it must be said that that change happened on the basis of a comparatively low turnout. I am not one to argue that those who do not turn out have an equal voice: democracy means that people must take part in order to ensure that their voices are heard. However, I think it should concern all of us who want to ensure that we have an Assembly that works for the benefit of the people of Wales that only 35% or 36% of the Welsh population turned out to vote in that referendum.

There is currently a disengagement with the political process in Wales, which, unfortunately, is more pronounced in relation to elections to the Welsh Assembly than it is in relation to Westminster elections. For example, I was elected to the Aberconwy constituency on a turnout of 70%, one of the highest turnouts in any Welsh constituency for a Westminster election. The turnout for the Assembly election was about 40%. Those who argue that the voice of the people of Wales was heard clearly back in March are actually arguing that a turnout of 35% and a yes vote of 60% constitute a clear democratic mandate. They do not. A great deal of work remains to be done to persuade the people of Wales that the Assembly is working on their behalf, and I think that the commission will have an opportunity to engage with them.

Other myths are being peddled by those who do not support the Assembly. There are plenty of them in Wales, and they tend to hear what they want to hear. They say that when they mention the Assembly, people complain that it is not delivering on health. I think that that is true, and it is a complaint that we hear on the doorstep. They say that people also complain that educational standards in Wales are extremely poor in comparison with those in England and many other parts of the European Union. I think that that is true as well, and again we hear about it on the doorstep. However, I believe that the enemies of the Welsh Assembly often misunderstand complaints about its performance. They consider those complaints to be an indication that people are fed up with the Assembly and do not want it, but I do not agree.

I think that the people who complain are not dissimilar to a mother who criticises a badly behaved son or daughter. The mother will be more than happy to complain about the behaviour of that son or daughter, because after all she has a right to do so, but when she hears someone else complain about it, she immediately goes on the defensive. I think that the same applies to the attitudes of people in Wales towards the Assembly. Yes they criticise, yes they complain, but ultimately there is a feeling—which I think those who are unhappy about the Assembly must take on board—that it is “our” Assembly. Perfect? No, it is not. Could do better? Undoubtedly. But there is, I believe, an acceptance that it is the Welsh Assembly, and I think that those who are unhappy about the way in which it is developing should engage in the process that we are discussing to ensure that we have a better performing Assembly to serve the people of Wales.

The first part of the Silk commission’s work will relate to fiscal responsibility—an issue that I believe we should consider seriously. Yes, the Assembly has a responsibility to answer to the people of Wales, and yes, its members are elected by the people of Wales, but ultimately we need a degree of accountability for fiscal decisions. Time and again during the 18 months for which I have been a Member of Parliament, we have heard members of Opposition parties criticise the cuts being made at Westminster, and we have heard Assembly Members criticise them as well. It is easy for them to make such criticisms: there is no need for them even to think about the deficit, because it is not the Assembly’s responsibility. The cuts being made in Wales—which are much lower than expected, and lower than cuts in many other parts of the United Kingdom—are being made in a context, and the problem with the current set-up in the Welsh Assembly is that that context is missing from its debates. That is why I think we should think about fiscal responsibility.

Welfare reform provides a useful analogy. The changes proposed in the Welfare Reform Bill, which has completed its passage through the House of Commons and is currently in the other place, are built on the concept of giving people who receive state benefits a degree of accountability and responsibility. There is a difficult argument to be had. I have been talking to housing associations in my constituency about the importance of ensuring that housing benefit is paid directly to claimants, to enable them to have the same respect and dignity as any other member of society in terms of paying rent and taking responsibility for their financial position. The same responsibility should apply to Governments. After all, the smallest community council in my constituency will raise local taxation, and I see no reason why the Welsh Assembly should not have the same degree of responsibility and accountability.

Having said that, it is important to point out that there are difficulties. The right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) is no longer present, but he made an important point about people commuting across the border to work in jobs in north Wales. One of the jewels of the Wales economy is the Airbus factory in Broughton, which is committed to apprenticeships and training, and giving young people from north-east Wales genuine employment opportunities. We should be proud of that, and we should also be proud of the support Broughton has received from the Welsh Assembly, but we cannot deny the fact that many of the workers at Broughton travel in from England—or that many of the workers at the Ellesmere Port factories producing Vauxhall cars travel in from north-east Wales.

[Hywel Williams]

I am slightly disappointed that the hon. Gentleman and other Members seem to think of such cross-border traffic as a problem. As I have already said, a Welsh Affairs Committee report acknowledged that there were some problems, but noted that in general the arrangements were working quite well. To give just one example, more people from England are registered with GPs in Wales than vice versa. There is a technical reason for that, by my point is that cross-border travel need not be a problem.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is mixing up the question of fiscal changes, which is what we are discussing, with the issue he raises about GP surgeries. The fact that Northern Ireland has an uncompetitive tax regime compared with that of the Republic of Ireland is a huge political issue, and it is also well known that the republican factions in Northern Ireland have financed themselves through smuggling operations because of the different rates of duty on petrol.

I do not want to overstate this issue, but we should take it seriously. I am sure that we can successfully address it, and the Silk commission has been set up precisely to examine such matters. Members of Plaid Cymru often refer to the Holtham report as a document that is beyond criticism, and it highlights this issue in some detail. I think the Silk commission needs to look into it and come to a conclusion.

On fiscal responsibility, I was intrigued by an article in today’s edition of The Western Mail. I do not read The Western Mail often—after all, I am a north Walian, and we tend to read the Daily Post up in north Wales—but in that article it appears that the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) said that he did not support fully devolving fiscal responsibility and tax-raising powers to Wales at this point in time, as he thinks that would be inappropriate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

The question of fiscal responsibility does raise issues, therefore. [Interruption.] I was under the impression that honesty in this Chamber was appreciated. There are issues that we need to consider.

[Hywel Williams]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Do you agree that when a Member mentions another Member, it is usually proper for the Member mentioned to be able to respond?

S4C

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[Hywel Williams]

I certainly will put those questions to the Minister, given that I have been speaking now for some 14 minutes. First, though, there is the question of administration. I understand that administering the channel costs about £20 million. From where is that to be obtained? I understand that the DCMS is to provide £7 million and that £3 million can be obtained from the channel’s commercial activities. What about the other £10 million? Where will that come from?

On management and governance, the point raised by my right hon. Friend is pertinent. We come to the matter of S4C’s independence. Again, the Government have assured us that S4C’s independence will be guaranteed. Will the BBC be appointing people on the operational side, which is my understanding? If that is so, how many people and at what level? What will be their function? Will they be there to look after the BBC’s interests? How can they avoid literally taking the BBC’s side? For example, if S4C decides to bid for a particular sports event that is in competition with the BBC—the Government are in favour of competition, are they not?—where will the loyalties of those BBC appointees lie? Will it be with the channel, or will it be with the BBC? Will they have a veto or a super majority, whatever that might be?

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. On the issue of competition with the BBC, I find that a very odd comment in view of the fact that the most popular programmes provided by S4C are actually provided for the channel by the BBC. Secondly, in terms of the independence of the channel and the concern that the hon. Gentleman raises in terms of BBC involvement, is it not the case that back in 1982 the S4C authority members were a minority on the board of S4C? Indeed, there were representatives from the independent television production sector. Yet S4C, launched in 1982, became a great success.

[Hywel Williams]

Indeed. The hon. Gentleman makes my point for me. It is possible to do this. It is possible to do this without the uncertainty that the Government have caused by how they have handled this issue. We are uncertain and I look to the Minister and the hon. Gentleman to reassure us that the highly successful co-operation that existed before is obtained again in the future. I am glad that he made that point.

As I was saying about the BBC appointees, will they have a veto? What about reporting back to the BBC? Will it be a matter of providing quarterly information reports? That is one thing, I suppose, but day-to-day reporting about individual decisions is quite another, so where does it lie?

In respect of the board, I take it that they will all be DCMS appointees. Perhaps the Minister will confirm that. What will be the BBC representation? What will the split be between the BBC representation and others? Will the Minister confirm that the board members loyalty will be to S4C and not to any body that appointed them? Is it not usually the case with such bodies that the first loyalty is to the body itself, whatever the sponsoring organisation? Surely, in the interests of securing the future, their loyalty must be to the channel.

Huw Jones, I think yesterday, said that S4C

“will be an effective partner for the BBC—managing itself but being accountable to the BBC Trust for its use of licence money and to the Government for the other public money”.

That is a very positive statement, and I hope that all hon. Members will take it as such. However, for this to be the case, all of the questions I put, and possibly more, must be answered before the people of Wales have any confidence that the Government are committed to ensuring the best possible television service for the Welsh-speaking audience and the future of S4C.

Worklessness (Wales)

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Westminster Hall

[Hywel Williams]

I agree with the hon. Lady. The changes in welfare are being brought forward too quickly, but I am also concerned that the work on the other side of the coin—creating jobs for people who will hopefully be leaving the benefits system or unfortunately be moving to lower levels of benefit—is not being prosecuted sufficiently.

Figures were released in the report today, and the situation in Wales is particularly worrying. I hope that referring to only some of them will mean that I am not tediously repetitive, but they make for interesting reading. The total number of jobseeker’s allowance claimants in my constituency is 1,245, and there were 364 jobs available at the jobcentre in the month in which the figures were collected, which is 3.42 claimants per job. If one adds in everyone who is on Department for Work and Pensions benefits, the total figure goes up to 5,590. I share the Government’s ambition of moving people who have been long-term sick or disabled back towards work. I agree entirely with that, because work is good for everyone, but it is a huge challenge just in my constituency.

In the most dire example in Wales—Rhondda—there are 2,315 claimants, which is 28.23 claimants per job, so there are 28 or 29 people chasing every job. I accept that some jobs are not advertised, but are available elsewhere. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) is smiling. Hopefully, I have drawn one of his teeth. I accept that statistics can be misleading, but there are 12,540 DWP benefit recipients, which means 152.93 claimants per job. The challenge is enormous. Incidentally, if, Mr Weir, you were sad enough to have looked at the debate on my ten-minute rule Bill about three weeks ago, you would have seen that the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) claimed that the figure is 84 per job. Presumably, he knows his constituency better than I do, and possibly the official statistician, but he says 84 and I say 152.93. The challenge is enormous.

I am afraid that the situation is the same throughout the valleys. For example, Cynon Valley has 122 DWP benefit recipients per job. Interestingly, when one looks at the other side of the coin—where the jobs are—Alyn and Deeside has more than 1,000 jobs posted, so the figure there is 1.55 claimants per job, which is almost a job for everyone who is claiming JSA. That is a good situation to be in, but it stands out in Wales as the exception rather than the rule.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. Does he agree that the situation in Deeside, for example, is indicative of the fact that the manufacturing base there is extremely strong? The Government will emphasise developing the manufacturing sector rather than depending on state-created jobs, as the previous Administration did.

[Hywel Williams]

I agree with the first part of the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. I have long been a supporter of manufacturing, although it is not a prominent sector in large parts of rural Wales. The situation in Alyn and Deeside is helped by the fact that it is immediately adjacent to the Cheshire plain, where there are many jobs, and the huge investment in Airbus. There are lots of reasons, but it is a situation to which some people in the valleys might aspire. Alyn and Deeside has had a lot of Government help to reach that position.

The final column of figures is striking. It shows that there are nearly 72,000 JSA claimants, which is nearly 4.5 claimants per job, and more than 350,000 people on DWP benefits, which is nearly 22 claimants per job. The figures are breathtakingly difficult to cope with for any Government, either here or in Cardiff. The total Jobcentre Plus jobs available in June was a little over 16,000. We are talking about an enormous problem, and I do not envy the Minister or the Welsh Assembly Government, who are of a different political stripe but who have the same sort of aim, their jobs.

Some groups are hit particularly hard, and there is an issue of gender. There are now more women claiming JSA than at any point since the previous Conservative Government were in power in 1996. Across the UK, the number of women claiming JSA rose by 9,300 last month to a 15-year high of 493,000. That shows that there is an issue for women. The figures are expected to worsen, because the coming cuts are to the public sector, where there is a preponderance female employment, so women will be hit harder again. About two thirds of people employed in the public sector in the UK are women, so there is a differential effect.

The cuts come at the same time as a report from the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development notes that unemployment will remain high across the UK until 2015. The report was produced by crystal-ball gazers, so one has to take the figures with a pinch of salt, but that is their prediction. A real fact, which I think the hon. Member for Aberconwy has referred to, is that we know that 77,000 Welsh people have been claiming out-of-work benefits for 10 years or more. That is a startling and unhappy fact.

The Government’s welfare reforms are predicated on the assumption that jobs will be there for those who move off higher benefits. Welfare reform was originally partly introduced to encourage more people into work during a period of high unemployment, but it is now one of the more controversial aspects of the Government’s policies. The figures show clearly that the jobs are not available. I will not stray too far down this road but, in passing, there is a real danger that the net effect of job cuts, welfare reform and so on will be to force many people not into work but on to lower benefits.

Of course, the Government hope that the private sector will grow and take up the slack, but unfortunately growth is weak in the Welsh economy. In Wales, the private sector is weak and previous jobs growth in Wales was mainly in the public sector. I do not know whether there is a causal relationship and whether growth in the public sector leads to a weak private sector or the other way around—the private sector is weak and so public sector jobs take up the slack. We are talking about a complicated relationship.

We all agree that we must aim for jobs growth in the private sector. I do not blame the private sector in Wales, because we have to accept that the economy in Wales has been dealt successive blows for many years with the closure of heavy industry and the legacy of long-term illness and disability. As someone who belongs to a party that was in government until recently, I say that we must accept that economic policy in Wales, as conducted by Governments of every party, has not been as successful as we all hoped that it would be.

I hardly need to say therefore that I am in favour of developing the private sector. However, the private sector in Wales is intertwined closely with the public sector, and cuts in the public sector might endanger or even hamper growth in the private sector. The picture is complicated. The Sheffield Hallam university report states:

“The loss of public sector jobs will exacerbate the situation.”

We are looking at a complicated picture. Employment in the public sector is important but, of course, those sorts of jobs are going in the cuts. There might be a double blow to the Welsh economy of fewer public sector jobs and less business for the Welsh private sector.

I have long believed that we need to have better integration between job finding, job placements provided through Jobcentre Plus and the Work programme, and those Welsh Assembly Government Departments that can have a profound effect on people’s ability to take up jobs. I refer hon. Members to my ten-minute rule Bill, which I introduced a few weeks ago but did not get a Second Reading. I do not want to repeat the arguments that I made then, except to say that the Welsh Assembly Government have responsibility for services such as education and training, further and higher education, skills development, health and social services and child care—I could go on—and that a certain synergy could be achieved by better co-ordination with Jobcentre Plus and the Work programme. I have no doubt that those services could be better combined and co-ordinated to enhance jobseekers’ hopes of finding work.

The crux of my argument today is that we need not only to equip and motivate jobseekers better, but to introduce a variety of other policies that will provide jobs. We need a concerted effort at job creation and to provide long-term jobs rather than stop-gap placements that disappear after the target has been reached. That has been a feature of job creation in Wales over the past few years.

[Guto Bebb]

I could not agree more on the issue of creating long-term jobs. One of the sad facts of the situation in Wales is, in the 1990s, we were consistently at the top—or very close to the top—of the United Kingdom regional league table in terms of creating self-employment. In the past five years, we have consistently been in the bottom part of that league table and have, in fact, been in last position. The fact that the Government are introducing the enterprise allowance scheme again is a positive development, because a significant number of businesses in north-west Wales that were founded under the old enterprise allowance scheme still survive.

[Hywel Williams]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good and pertinent point. As I said, I am very much in favour of encouraging self-employers, and there are steps that we can take to do so. My entry into self-employment could not have been more disastrous. I left university and tried to claim a bit of benefit, as someone who supposedly knew something about the system, only to find that when I was down in Cardiff job hunting, I should have been at home signing on. I was therefore denied a bit of money that I might have claimed because I was not idle at home; I was out searching for that illusive job.

Other measures for which we in Plaid have argued in the past include a temporary cut in VAT to kick-start the economy. Of course, we recently had a vote on that. The Government parties voted against the proposals and I am afraid to say that the Labour party abstained. Some hon. Members will know that, since 2008, we have campaigned alongside the Federation of Master Builders and others for a specific cut in VAT on repair and renovation. Following last year’s ECOFIN decision, VAT on repair and renovation could go down to 5%. Other countries have followed that path by reducing VAT on labour-intensive industries, and they have had effective results. Many pre-1919 houses are in a particularly dire state and need fixing. That is peculiar to some parts of Wales, particularly the valleys. The work is available and there are, of course, the workers. What we need is a more favourable tax regime to encourage those workers to do the work. The Federation of Master Builders estimates that we could create about 100,000 jobs.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

rose—

[Hywel Williams]

I will give way once more, but I am anxious to hear what the Minister has to say.

[Guto Bebb]

I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman. May I concur with the comments that have been made? As a Member for an area that is very dependent on tourism, I have also heard the argument for a reduction in VAT for the tourism sector. Any Government who want to create enterprise and employment should look carefully at using the tax system to do that although, obviously, that has to be put in place once we have the public finances in order.

[Hywel Williams]

That is a moot point. I do not have the figures at my fingertips, but when VAT on construction services was reduced in Italy, a large number of people who were working cash in hand realised that becoming legal and paying a lower rate of VAT was worth while. Allegedly, the tax take went up, so given the Government’s current situation, it might be useful to consider that. I have not seen the operation of the famous Laffer curve being proven in such a way before but, allegedly, that was the case in Italy at least.

The 100,000 jobs that it is estimated that such an approach could create would be local, but there is also a strong equality case in favour of the policy. I put this question rhetorically rather than to the Minister: why should a young couple pay more for renovating their terraced house when a banker who retired early with a big pension pot does not pay VAT on his newly built ranch-style property in the south-east? I had to get that one in. There is an equality issue, and lots of young people are trying to renovate their houses, so the proposal would be a great help to them.

Lastly, as I realise that time is moving on, we also need to boost self-employment. I agree with the FSB, which estimates that the self-employed contribute £21 billion to the UK economy every year. It argues persuasively that self-employment is a key driver to achieving economic growth. That is particularly the case in Wales, as self-employment is a feature of much of rural Wales.

I agree with the hon. Member for Aberconwy when he argues for enterprise zones, particularly enterprise zones themed around certain types of activity. The only thing I worry about is that if we have enterprise zones throughout the UK—not just in Wales—they will not act as an incentive hub for a wider economic picture. In some places in the early 1980s, jobs were poached from other areas and the net effect was less than one had hoped for because, rather than creating new jobs, companies moved in to benefit from the improved climate within the enterprise zones. That is a particular worry. I understand that the Government intend to have such an enterprise zone somewhere in the north-west. I am not sure what is going to happen, but I will certainly keep an interest in the matter.

Irrespective of welfare reform, we need in Wales to boost the private sector, to equip our workers and workless people better, and to improve the integration of services to ensure that there are jobs for our people and prosperity for our country. We need a work creation programme—that is the missing part of the jigsaw. If that sounds a bit like the case for a future jobs funds 2, so be it, particularly if that is aimed at those who are inevitably at the end of the queue when jobs are being handed out—the long-term unemployed, and those incapacitated by illness or long-term disability.

Funding Formula

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Tuesday 18th January 2011 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

I will be very brief, Mr Dobbin. Thank you very much for calling me. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning. I also want to apologise in advance for the fact that I might have to leave before the conclusion of the debate, because of Select Committee responsibilities.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) on securing this debate. In my view, the debate has been very positive and the spirit in which it has been conducted is something that we should be proud of, because it has not been a case of people complaining about the unfairness of the funding system in relation to England. Instead, the debate has highlighted real concerns about the fact that the current system is possibly unsustainable, because we are creating anomalies that are very difficult to justify in the long term.

I concur with my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), inasmuch as the fact that some of the examples that have been given about the differences, for example, between Wales and England in terms of spending is in danger of confusing the issue of Barnett with the actual effect of devolution. As a Member from north Wales, where one can get to Cheshire in less than an hour along the A55 on a good day, I am very aware of the fact that, for instance, the decisions made by the Welsh Assembly during the past 12 years have resulted in spending on education being significantly less per head in Wales than in England. That is a real concern for people in north Wales, because we can actually see the differences between spending in Cheshire and the spending in north Wales. That is an effect not of Barnett but of the decisions that have been made and the priorities that have been set by the Welsh Assembly. As I said in my contribution to the debate on the issue of student funding, I personally feel that the decision made by the Welsh Assembly, within the Barnett block grant, in relation to funding student fees in future is actually an attack on the Welsh university system, which will be disastrous in the long term for Wales. Again, however, that is a decision that has been made within the funding formula. It is important when we have this debate on the funding formula to be aware of the fact that, on some clearly beneficial spending priorities established by the Welsh Assembly, there are counter-arguments, in terms of examples of spending decisions made in Wales that are actually quite damaging.

There are things that we need to be aware of about Barnett. In the Welsh context, there is concern that there has been a real change in the way in which Barnett works in Wales. I have already highlighted the fact, in an intervention, that in 1999-2000, Wales received on average about £125 for every £100 spent in England. That figure has reduced to about £112 for every £100 spent in England and obviously that reduction has been highlighted in Wales regularly. Therefore, I genuinely applaud the Welsh Assembly for commissioning the Holtham report, because the argument that Wales was underfunded and was being unfairly treated in some way was one that we had heard a lot about. I think that the Holtham report gave a very secure background to that debate and explained that Wales was, in comparative terms, being underfunded, if one takes into account the needs of Wales. That point has been acknowledged in this debate by my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire, so it is a genuine issue.

Therefore, there is now a growing need to address the fact that the Barnett system is out of date and is creating a real problem. That situation has been made much worse by the implications of the Barnett squeeze; because of the way that the system works, as spending was increasing, the allocation to Wales on a pro rata basis was not increasing at the same rate.

That brings us to another important point. It has been highlighted by Holtham, and I do not think a single Member of this House would argue against this fact: most analyses of the Barnett formula seem to indicate that, if we try to move to some needs-based formula that is not dissimilar to the one used in England, the effect will be to increase the funding to Wales slightly—even if it is only a slight increase, it would be most welcome—but there would be a significant difference to the funding for Scotland.

That is an issue that we need to think about very carefully, because as my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan pointed out there is currently a block on consideration of the issue. Quite clearly, the Scottish Parliament is not looking to implement any changes, because the advantage is given to it by the current system.

Nevertheless, in my view there is a real issue here, which is the continuation of the happy relationship between the four component parts of the United Kingdom, because ultimately an ongoing sense of unfairness, which has been highlighted from an English point of view, is not compatible with the sustainability of the Union. There is a genuine need to consider coming up with a new formula that will replace Barnett and that will try to be fairer to all parts of the United Kingdom.

The hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) made the point that no new system would necessarily result in everyone being happy, but that is not in itself an argument against sticking with a system that was implemented in 1976. Ultimately, it is important that the present Government take the issue in hand, to ensure that we have a system that is fairer to all parts of the United Kingdom.

Finally, I need to make a point about the Welsh context. The hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) is a Plaid Cymru Member, and his party has certainly been very vocal about the unfairness of Barnett. I think that it is fair to say that when the Holtham report was published there was genuine disappointment among some members of Plaid Cymru that the highlighted shortfall of £300 million was significantly lower than some of the figures that had been bandied around. Shortly after the publication of the report, I took part in a debate in Bangor university with the former president of Plaid Cymru and, in view of the evidence that had been collected, he could not argue that Wales was extremely hard done by under the current system.

[Hywel Williams]

Did I hear the hon. Gentleman say that the possible £300 million increase in funding for Wales was minor?

[Guto Bebb]

It is minor in the context of the unfairness that has been claimed by the hon. Gentleman’s party in the past. Currently, we spend about 112%, compared with the Holtham recommendation of 115%. In view of the fact that in 1999-2000 we were spending 125% compared to 100%, I think that my description is fair. The important point is that it is odd, to say the least, to hear a nationalist party, which now advocates independence, arguing very strongly for a needs-based formula that takes into account the need for transfers from England to subsidise the situation in Wales. I would fully subscribe to that. One of the hard lessons that I have learnt in life is that Wales is part of the United Kingdom, and as a result we accept that there can be transfers between the regions and nations of the United Kingdom to reflect their different needs. I find it odd that a party that advocates breaking that link can also stand up and argue for increased funding from the English taxpayer, to subsidise the situation in Wales.

[Hywel Williams]

I do not want to engage in what might be an internecine struggle, given the hon. Gentleman’s previous membership of my party and his strong advocacy of our policies, many years ago before he jumped ship—apparently on the matter of the currency. Does he accept that the Holtham report makes a three-step recommendation: first, a floor is established; secondly, there is then a needs-based formula; and thirdly, which is the point that the hon. Gentleman mentions, a differential taxation system for Wales is considered? The snapshot that he presents as our policy is certainly not our policy; it is one point on the journey.

[Guto Bebb]

The problem with the hon. Gentleman’s point is that it would require the agreement of the Scottish Parliament and we would have to look at the matter on a UK-wide basis. He is perfectly right to highlight my background regarding the single currency. The crucial issue was that one of the arguments against a single currency was that it was difficult to see how transfers from Germany to Greece, for example, to subsidise that currency could be justified. We now see that situation, and it has been highlighted in a book by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood). My view is that we can still justify transfers within the United Kingdom to the different regions of England and to the nations, on the basis that we have a shared heritage and a shared belief that we are part of the United Kingdom. I was of the view that that shared heritage would not be there at European Union level, and we might see that issue tested to destruction this year. I do not want to see the situation that we have in the United Kingdom, with transfers within the Union, destroyed by a clear unfairness in the system. Wales will probably benefit from a needs-based system, but we certainly need to look at the issue during this Parliament because I think that otherwise there will be a growing disenchantment with the system on the part of the English taxpayer, and that would be bad for the needs of people in Wales.

S4C

Debate between Guto Bebb and Hywel Williams

Wednesday 20th October 2010 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

When I requested this debate on the future funding of S4C, I had not anticipated that events would move so quickly. It is fair to say that for many in Wales, the future funding arrangements for S4C have been a very visible and easily understood example of the hard choices that we as a country now face in dealing with the deficit and the debt problems. This coalition must get to grips with those issues and the mess that the previous Labour Government left us with.

No one can deny that S4C has an important place in the cultural landscape of Wales. It is important to be aware that the way in which the channel came into being is a key reason why its future funding arrangements are extremely important for many people in Wales. After all, it is the only Welsh language broadcaster in the world. Let me give a bit of historical context. The channel was launched in 1982 following a long and very public campaign, which was supported by all strands of Welsh society. It is worth noting that the decision to establish S4C was taken by a Conservative Government back in 1980.

Despite all the doubts that were expressed about the viability of a Welsh television channel, it is important to note that initially S4C proved to be a great success. The success of the channel in the early years was very much a reflection of the fact that there was a mix of Welsh programmes during the peak hours and Channel 4 programming that also attracted non-Welsh speakers. There is no doubt that the initial few years of S4C were very successful. There was a period in the 1980s and 1990s in which audience figures were often in excess of 150,000 for peak-time viewing.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

On a point of order, Mrs Brooke. May we adjourn the debate for a moment because there is a Division in the main Chamber?

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

I acknowledge that there were deeper reasons for establishing S4C, but we must also recognise that the channel needs to serve the people of Wales, whether they are Welsh speakers, Welsh learners or non-Welsh speakers. There are question marks over whether the viewing figures are disappointing at times and whether the channel is doing what it should be doing. The feeling that the channel has moved away from the people it is supposed to serve is demonstrated, I believe, in the campaign that we have seen during the past few weeks in response to the potential threat to the channel. Even the Welsh Language Society, which no one could doubt is committed to the channel, is arguing for fair funding and a new S4C, because it believes that the current channel is perhaps not performing as it should.

When we talk about S4C, we often mention the wider cultural and economic implications, but it is interesting to note that the channel’s economic contribution has changed considerably over the past 20 years. The way that it once created new industries in parts of west and north-west Wales has certainly changed dramatically, and the loss of the Barcud studios in Caernarfon is an indication of that change and shows that the economic argument needs to be looked at again.

It is crucial that we move on and consider the future challenges that we face. Last night it was announced that the BBC would be taking over the funding of the channel, so there is now a need for clarity on the nature of the proposed settlement. We should acknowledge that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has accepted the argument for having S4C, which I appreciate. It is likely that the channel’s funding will be transferred to the BBC from 2014, so I would like to ask the Minister a few questions on what we have heard in the media and from the Chancellor this afternoon.

Will the funding for S4C be safeguarded within the BBC, and by what mechanism? It is all very well saying that the money will be forthcoming from the BBC licence payer, but by what mechanism will the S4C budget be protected within that licence fee? We are all aware that during the past four months the BBC has announced a 17% cut in its programming for S4C, with very little consultation, so I would like some clarification on that point. With regard to my earlier point on plurality and editorial independence, if there is a change in the funding mechanism for the channel, it is imperative that there is clarity about editorial and programming independence. I am sure that the Department can respond to that point.

Despite what I have said about S4C’s economic contribution, the channel does play a key role in supporting the cultural industries in Wales, especially independent television producers. If a pot of money from the BBC licence fee is to be made available for S4C, would the Minister clarify whether it will be ring-fenced for the independent producers, rather than swallowed by the BBC? Finally, we need assurances on the future funding for the channel, because if the decision for the BBC to take responsibility for that funding is to go ahead, I would like to know where we will stand not only in 2014, but in 2016 and beyond.

[Hywel Williams]

Before the hon. Gentleman concludes his remarks, would he tell Members whether he agrees with the scale of the cuts—25%—that have been reported? What is his opinion on that matter?

[Guto Bebb]

I have made it fairly clear to many constituents that I believe that a cut in S4C’s funding can be justified, as long as it is in keeping with the general cuts that the Department is facing. Having spoken with numerous television companies in Wales, I believe that the feeling is that, with greater efficiency, a cut of around 20% is manageable, but that anything more would be problematic. I hope that the cut will be about 20%, and no more than 25%.

I could ask the Minister many more questions, but I think that he has probably realised from the debate that there is a degree of concern about the transparency of the announcements, which I believe is no fault of the Department—the BBC got hold of the story. However, we need some clarity on the announcement. I have asked several questions, but I should be delighted if he would expand on those and comment on the critical issues that have been raised by other Members. Ultimately, we need to remember that we are all here because we are convinced of the need for a television channel broadcasting in Welsh and feel that, whatever settlement is made as a result of today’s announcements, it should be a long-term settlement, not a short-term response to a current fiscal crisis.