S4C

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I am delighted to have the opportunity to discuss a pressing question in Wales. This debate about S4C—I usually pronounce it “Ess pedwar eck” and if I slip in to saying it like that, I hope hon. Members will forgive me as I will be speaking my first language—could scarcely be more timely.

I have an interest in this matter because part of the Welsh TV industry is located in my constituency. I sometimes tell people much to their surprise that the main industries in my area are agriculture, tourism and TV. Those areas hardly sit together, but there we are. I therefore have a particular interest in the matter. A properly resourced, managed and directed S4C is absolutely essential for the continuing renaissance of the Welsh language. It is vital to secure the plurality of the television provision in Wales because it is crucial for the Welsh television industry both in English and Welsh. Clearly, there is a relationship and an exchange of ideas and staff—they are co-dependent.

It is often left out of the debate that it is essential we have a properly managed, directed and resourced S4C for the future of the workers in the industry. Over the years—in fact, decades—workers in the television industry have lost their jobs and been moved. The unions have complained, studios have been closed and so on. Those people have a proper interest in the matter as well.

A moment ago, I said there had been a renaissance in the Welsh language. Welsh language television has played a significant part in that. Some years ago, I remember speaking at a conference on language planning in Dublin and explaining the utility of having children’s programmes, rock and roll music, drama and soap operas in Welsh and how that was adding to the growth of the language. A voice at the back said, “Are you seriously telling the conference that the renaissance in the Welsh language is all to do with having pop music in Welsh?” Well, that is clearly not the case. There has been movement from this Government, the previous Government and, significantly, the Government in Wales over the legislative status of the Welsh language. Significantly, the Welsh Language Act 1993, which was passed by the preceding Conservative Government, was a huge step forward and I am glad to pay tribute to all those people who were involved with that.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

Does the hon. Gentleman not think that the growth of the language—the holistic approach operated by successive Assembly Governments—has necessitated the importance of a meaningful dialogue between Government here and colleagues in the national Assembly? Such an approach is necessary to promote the language agenda required to build the truly bilingual Wales that I know he aspires to.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hywel Williams]

Thank you, Mr Hood. I have been approached by various hon. Members, and I will certainly allow at least one intervention from each of those people who have contacted me. This debate interests people from across the political and language spectrum in Wales, and I will take further interventions. However, I will also talk very quickly, as is my wont.

The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. A consensus has been built in Wales over many years, which I am afraid is in jeopardy because of this decision. That consensus has been built on proper dialogue between people who properly have an interest in the matter. That is not confined to any language group, any class or any political party. I say that as a member of Plaid Cymru.

There has been a lack of clarity about the Government’s intentions and actions in the matter, not least in relation to elected Members such as myself. If I ask the Minister some naive and ill-informed questions, the cause of that may lie not with me but with how the matter has been handled. As with a good deal of the Government’s programme, the impression has been given that it is being made up as they go along, with backtracking and amendment often the order of the day.

I would like to ask some questions, and the debate’s timing in relation to the decisions that are now being made means it is essential we have answers as a matter of urgency. First, I scarcely need to say that the threats to S4C’s future have caused huge concern in Wales and across Welsh society—both Welsh and English speaking—particularly among those who are concerned with the language. We have seen a stronger galvanising of the campaign for the Welsh language than there has been for many years—stronger even than with the campaign for new Welsh language legislation that took place some time ago.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman welcome yesterday’s statement by a trustee of the BBC that guaranteed funding up until 2017 is on offer? That issue has caused great concern to all of us.

[Hywel Williams]

Indeed, I do. However, I will come on to some questions about that later.

As I was saying, there has been a campaign the like of which we have not seen for some time. A small example of that is the e-mail bombardment of members of the Public Bodies Bill Committee. I served on that Committee with the hon. Gentleman and others. I received 1,200 messages and I answered them all, which offered some relief to the people who sent them. Other Committee members from England were amazed at the volume of correspondence, the like of which they had not seen before. I doubt, in fact, that the Government predicted that supporters of S4C would be so galvanised.

I am not sure if the Minister and his colleagues knew the background to their decision on S4C—although perhaps he will correct me later. The Conservatives would have been wise to consult those in their own party who took the initial decision to set up S4C in the first place. Former Conservative Ministers took an honourable and constructive role in that decision.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

I think I am one of the oldest lags in this debate, having written a document called “Television in Wales” in 1973, which became Labour party policy. It has been an extraordinary period, and the most extravagant hopes of those of us who were talking about the subject in 1973 have been more than realised. S4C has been an enormous success both artistically and as far as the language is concerned. I give the hon. Gentleman my full support and that of many members of my party.

[Hywel Williams]

I am very grateful for that point, which was very well made. As I said, the Conservatives and certainly the Liberal Democrats should have known better, with honourable exceptions. They should have read up on the history and on the conflict over the location of Welsh language programmes.

[Mrs Siân C. James (Swansea East) (Lab)]

As someone who comes from the same town as Ian Jones, I am looking forward to great things from a Morristonian. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that Governments persist in thinking that S4C and the BBC are not in competition with each other when they are? The idea that they will share producers and directors is of great concern.

[Hywel Williams]

I share the hon. Lady’s concerns, which relate to some of the questions I will ask about the involvement of the BBC in S4C. I am sure that that can be managed with good will on all sides and a proper degree of independence and funding for S4C. I will return to that issue in a moment.

I was talking about the history, the conflict over the location of Welsh language programmes, the long campaign throughout the 1970s and the promise to set up the channel in the first place. That broken promise, the conflict, the arrests, the court cases and the jailings led many thousands of reasonable and normally law-abiding Welsh citizens to break the law and not pay their television licences. That consequence was a matter of regret to us all as parliamentarians. In fact, some people went even further in taking what was always non-violent direct action. The Government could have read up on the social conflict engendered and on Mrs Thatcher’s first U-turn. Clearly they did not and they repeated their mistakes.

I have some questions for the Minister on the decision itself in the first place. What consultations were there with the people in Wales before the decision was made on funding, and subsequently on the inclusion of S4C in the Public Bodies Bill and its relationship with the BBC? Is he satisfied that all the relevant people were able to put their point of view forward? Were they heard, or does he concede, as some, possibly wrongly, suspect, that these decisions were made for reasons of policy here—cutting back public spending and cutting back on the size of the state—that had little to do directly with broadcasting in Wales? Indeed, some people suggest that they were heedless of the consequences to Wales, the Welsh language or the broadcasting industry. I have to tell the Minister that that is how it appeared.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate on this very important matter, about which many of my colleagues are concerned. Does he agree that the cuts facing S4C—even prior to the 2015 period, which has now become the 2017 period, for which we are supposed to be grateful—are actually greater and disproportionately greater than those facing the BBC, and that this is a total disgrace and shows the shambolic way the Government have treated S4C?

[Hywel Williams]

I agree that the cuts to S4C are probably going to be very deep indeed, and deeper than any reasonable broadcaster might be able to cope with given the long time scales of planning. I was just saying that that is how it appeared to people in Wales, but also to disinterested commentators. It is not just people who are taking particular sides who saw that. I am sure that that was not what the Government intended.

I would like to ask further questions beyond those about consultation, such as how the whole issue was handled. I will give a small example that will be familiar to those who were members of the Public Bodies Bill Committee. The agreement between the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the BBC was made on 13 September. On the morning of 15 September, the Bill Committee met to discuss S4C. The debate continued from 1 pm onward. The Minister who replied to the debate, the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath), referred to the BBC agreement in support of his argument. However, that agreement was not published until the afternoon of that day. It was too late to inform members of the Committee for that debate—although not the Report stage or on Third Reading—other than the Minister, of course, who had it in his hand. Was that completely coincidental? Why was the agreement not available on 13 or 14 September, or even on the morning of 15 September?

I raised this matter in a subsequent sitting of the Committee as a point of order, but to no avail. I have to tell the Minister here today that the impression given, rightly or wrongly, was of, at best, sharp practice. Consequently, he should realise that there are people in Wales who are now even more distrustful of the motives and action of the Government, and they will not be reassured by evasions or warm words. In fact, some might conclude that the wisest course of action for the Government would be to backtrack and restore at least part of the funding to S4C, to take S4C out of the Public Bodies Bill and, instead, consult and include any proposals in the forthcoming broadcasting Bill.

Given that they are unlikely to do that, and pressing on with my questions, I want to ask the Minister, and give him time to answer, rather than answer through his unfortunate friend, the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome who had to face the Public Bill Committee. He did his best to answer. I know he did his best to answer. [Interruption.] Perhaps I would not go as far as “brilliant”, but he is a very nice man.

On money, in the amended Public Bodies Bill, there is an undertaking for the Government to provide “sufficient” funding. This is mainly made up of a contribution by the BBC from the licence fee. I understand that that is supposed to be approximately £76 million in 2014-15. Will the Minister tell us what the contribution will be in 2015-16 and 2016-17, and the next two years? It is not clear to me, at least. I have heard two figures mentioned—£74 million, or is it £76 million? We are only talking about a couple of million, and we are used to talking in trillions in this place, but £2 million is a load of money. Will all the BBC money be devoted to production, as we have heard? Must it all be devoted to production? Must it all be spent in the independent sector? Are these not decisions that S4C should be taking independently, rather than being directed?

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

May I just say that I am very pleased that my hon. Friend has been able to secure this debate? I am pleased with the attendance of hon. Members from all parties today, showing the depth of feeling in Wales about this issue. Will he please ask the Minister, if I can ask a question through him, what is the latest on the editorial independence of S4C?

[Hywel Williams]

I certainly will put those questions to the Minister, given that I have been speaking now for some 14 minutes. First, though, there is the question of administration. I understand that administering the channel costs about £20 million. From where is that to be obtained? I understand that the DCMS is to provide £7 million and that £3 million can be obtained from the channel’s commercial activities. What about the other £10 million? Where will that come from?

On management and governance, the point raised by my right hon. Friend is pertinent. We come to the matter of S4C’s independence. Again, the Government have assured us that S4C’s independence will be guaranteed. Will the BBC be appointing people on the operational side, which is my understanding? If that is so, how many people and at what level? What will be their function? Will they be there to look after the BBC’s interests? How can they avoid literally taking the BBC’s side? For example, if S4C decides to bid for a particular sports event that is in competition with the BBC—the Government are in favour of competition, are they not?—where will the loyalties of those BBC appointees lie? Will it be with the channel, or will it be with the BBC? Will they have a veto or a super majority, whatever that might be?

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. On the issue of competition with the BBC, I find that a very odd comment in view of the fact that the most popular programmes provided by S4C are actually provided for the channel by the BBC. Secondly, in terms of the independence of the channel and the concern that the hon. Gentleman raises in terms of BBC involvement, is it not the case that back in 1982 the S4C authority members were a minority on the board of S4C? Indeed, there were representatives from the independent television production sector. Yet S4C, launched in 1982, became a great success.

[Hywel Williams]

Indeed. The hon. Gentleman makes my point for me. It is possible to do this. It is possible to do this without the uncertainty that the Government have caused by how they have handled this issue. We are uncertain and I look to the Minister and the hon. Gentleman to reassure us that the highly successful co-operation that existed before is obtained again in the future. I am glad that he made that point.

As I was saying about the BBC appointees, will they have a veto? What about reporting back to the BBC? Will it be a matter of providing quarterly information reports? That is one thing, I suppose, but day-to-day reporting about individual decisions is quite another, so where does it lie?

In respect of the board, I take it that they will all be DCMS appointees. Perhaps the Minister will confirm that. What will be the BBC representation? What will the split be between the BBC representation and others? Will the Minister confirm that the board members loyalty will be to S4C and not to any body that appointed them? Is it not usually the case with such bodies that the first loyalty is to the body itself, whatever the sponsoring organisation? Surely, in the interests of securing the future, their loyalty must be to the channel.

Huw Jones, I think yesterday, said that S4C

“will be an effective partner for the BBC—managing itself but being accountable to the BBC Trust for its use of licence money and to the Government for the other public money”.

That is a very positive statement, and I hope that all hon. Members will take it as such. However, for this to be the case, all of the questions I put, and possibly more, must be answered before the people of Wales have any confidence that the Government are committed to ensuring the best possible television service for the Welsh-speaking audience and the future of S4C.