Living Wage

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Thursday 6th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Chris White]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that thoughtful intervention. If payment is made with the intention of paying staff the living wage, that increase should feed through directly to the employees. One reason for promoting this discussion today is to see how such employers can be embarrassed into making the right decisions for the people who work so hard doing these jobs, which sometimes we do not notice, but we would if they were not done. I pay tribute to all the people who work under these circumstances. Their tremendous work should be recognised.

Here in the House, the living wage is paid to staff. That is a leading example of doing the right thing, not least in my office, where an intern worked for me. He was paid the London living wage until I took him on on a full-time contract. He is probably watching this speech, and I congratulate him on his excellent work.

The living wage logo, which some of us, probably inappropriately, are wearing in the Chamber this afternoon, is a badge of honour for many employers. I am pleased to note that when, like me, they finally get the badge, a number of MPs have stated that they would be happy to support and promote it.

The best way to illustrate some of the positive impacts of the living wage is to highlight examples of employers and staff who have directly benefited from it. The Living Wage Foundation has compiled a list of employees and employers who have spoken of the benefits and the effective results that they have experienced through paying, and being paid, the living wage. Most employees speak of a reduction in stress and anxiety about financial pressures. Employers point out that paying a higher wage may attract better staff whom it rewards for their hard work. There is obviously ultimate value for their businesses as a whole.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Does any of the evidence collected relate to very small businesses? In my constituency, a lot of small businesses would be keen to pay the living wage, but they are concerned about the impact on their very small profit margins. Does any of the research undertaken indicate a benefit for those smaller businesses in communities such as mine?

[Chris White]

I will come to some of the data that have been provided by the Federation of Small Businesses, which paint a picture that is perhaps rosier than my hon. Friend might think.

I should like to recognise the organisations in my constituency that have been accredited as living wage employers: Alsters Kelly solicitors, St Margaret’s church in Whitnash, and Warwick Gates community church. I pay particular tribute to WAYC—the Warwickshire Association of Youth Clubs—of which I am a trustee.

I call on local authorities that are not accredited living wage employers to follow the example of many across the country that are. Too few local authorities have committed to paying their staff the living wage. This might seem a naive question to the Minister, but I wonder why some do and some do not. Local authorities that do not pay their staff a living wage should speak to those that do, and see at first hand the benefits that it can provide.

Take-up of the living wage has grown exponentially, but we need to think about how it can go further. We can achieve that by encouraging employers, sharing case studies and best practice, and generally promoting the benefits that I have stated. The voluntary nature of the living wage scheme is currently working well. At this stage, as we see the numbers increase, encouragement is perhaps a better start than compulsion. The Government are committed to raising the minimum wage and, through a provision in the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill, cracking down on employers who are evading their statutory responsibilities by significantly increasing—from £5,000 to £20,000—fines for underpaying staff. I note that the Living Wage Foundation does not recommend the introduction of a statutory living wage on the basis that a strong minimum wage protects workers from exploitation. Instead, it seeks a position for the living wage as a voluntary, stretching target that employers can aspire to and on which they should be challenged, encouraged, and supported to achieve at a level beyond their statutory obligations.

I appreciate that it is not possible for all employers to pay a living wage. Its provision depends on many factors, including the size of the company. Some companies are in a position to take on the required increase in staff costs. Employers should not be unfairly criticised if they cannot afford to pay their staff the living wage. As the Institute of Directors has pointed out, we must be wary of stigmatising such companies. Nevertheless, as a general principle everyone should be able to share in economic growth. Employers who can afford to pay the living wage should be encouraged to do so. Perhaps the Minister can help with that.

Since the last election, businesses have created more than 2.1 million new jobs. Those businesses deserve our support and encouragement for their hard work and dedication in boosting our economy. Research by the FSB found that 77% of small firms pay all staff above the minimum wage and 53% pay them above the living wage. Another key statistic revealed by that research was that seven in 10 small firms expected to increase staff pay in 2014.

That brings me back to the purpose of this debate: the promotion of the living wage, which is good for employees, good for business and good for society. Businesses need to be encouraged, supported and shown the benefits. Let us have an ambitious target for the living wage next year. My final question to the Minister is: how can we encourage more employers to adopt the living wage so that many more can share in the proceeds of growth?

PISA Results

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

I have often had the opportunity in the past to draw attention to how well Hackney performs and, indeed, how effectively Hackney is represented in this House by its two MPs when it comes to educational matters. As both the hon. Lady and her parliamentary neighbour acknowledge, it is an emphasis on academic excellence and, indeed, the growth in academy schools that has driven Hackney’s improvement. It is really important that she keeps her Front-Bench colleagues honest by making sure that they back academic excellence and the spread of academisation.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

The Secretary of State has rightly touched on the comparative poor performance in Wales. Would he blame that primarily on the fact that we have a £600 per head funding gap as a result of Labour policy or on the fact that the Labour Government in Cardiff have accepted teaching union dogma for the past 15 years?

[Michael Gove]

Both.

Oral Answers to Questions

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Thursday 18th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Vince Cable]

I recognise the considerable value of the Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012, and I acknowledge the right hon. Lady’s role in promoting its take-up. The Department has a unit that is currently promoting social enterprise, which lies at the core of this issue. Some 68,000 such enterprises now employ 1 million people, and I was at the launch of that unit last year. For our overall policy, we try through the industrial strategy to ensure that procurement is strategic and takes into account long-term training and innovation requirements.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

T2. My right hon. Friend is well aware of the scandal of mis-selling interest rate derivatives to small businesses, but despite the establishment of the Financial Conduct Authority redress scheme in January, not a penny has yet been paid out to small businesses. On Tuesday, one small business was offered a redress package for a technical fault of £1.3 million, but the offer was made on condition that no payments would be made by the bank in question unless the business also settled the consequential loss claim. Will my right hon. Friend take up that issue with the FCA and ensure that technical redress is paid prior to any agreement on consequential losses?

[Vince Cable]

My hon. Friend is right that this is a major scandal and it is being pursued through negotiation with the banks. As he rightly says, there are major anxieties about the terms of the settlement and some of the products currently excluded from it. I will see the head of the FCA next week to pursue the matter in some detail on behalf of my hon. Friend and his colleagues, and I acknowledge the enormous work he has done in the background to bring these problems to proper attention.

EU-US Trade and Investment Agreement

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Thursday 18th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to contribute to this debate, and I congratulate the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) on securing it through the Backbench Business Committee. I am also very pleased to be involved with the all-party group on European Union-United States trade and investment, because it is important that we debate this issue sooner rather than later, as the House should take responsibility for what is potentially a very important treaty.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) raised the important issue of scrutiny. That starts by having a debate on the Floor of the House in which Members can highlight important issues of concern. We have already heard a great variety of comments, which shows this House is making an important contribution to the scrutiny of this issue.

The debate has also been memorable because it marks the first time I have ever heard my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) described as a member of the Tea party. It is a shock that that description should be applied to him because if I were asked to identify the Conservative Member who would be least likely to be a member of the Tea party it would be him. I think the comment was made in jest, however.

There are issues to be discussed in respect of this trade and investment deal between the EU and the US. I was intrigued by the comment of my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) that small countries could negotiate such deals better than the EU. That would be worthy of discussion, and I am sure the all-party group would be delighted if my hon. Friend were willing to contribute to our discussion by debating that issue.

[Jonathan Evans]

Specifically on that point, does my hon. Friend think it might be useful to invite the minister-counsellor from the US embassy in London, who has already made it clear that the concept of some separate UK-US trade deal is a non-starter?

[Guto Bebb]

That comment has indeed been made, and the all-party group could have a good debate on these issues. I am happy to have this argument. That is why we wanted to establish the all-party group and to have this debate. We need to ensure all the views in this House are heard.

I am a believer in free trade as I think it is beneficial. The concerns raised by some Members on the Government Benches are not about free trade, however: they are about whether the agreements would enhance free trade. That is a reasonable concern to have, and it needs to be scrutinised by this House. If we are to negotiate a free trade agreement between the EU and the US, we need to make sure it is a genuine free trade agreement.

The main town in my constituency is Llandudno, and the largest secondary school in Llandudno is Ysgol John Bright, which is named after an individual who believed strongly in free trade. To have concerns about whether this agreement would enhance free trade is not to oppose the treaty; it is more about making sure that what we create will benefit not just the economy of the UK, but the global economy. I say that because I agree that a genuine free trade agreement between the EU and the US will not just have an impact on the states in Europe and the United States; it will have a global impact as well. These issues are worth discussing, therefore, and that is why it is important that we have this debate at this point in time.

I have concerns about the time scale of two years for this agreement. I had the good fortune last night to be in discussions with one of the Canadian Prime Minister’s advisers, because one concern that must be expressed is that for a long period—certainly since I have been elected to this place—we have been involved in discussions between the EU and Canada in an attempt to reach a satisfactory trade agreement between those two trading blocs. Unfortunately, as yet, despite promises on numerous occasions that we were very close to an agreement, no agreement has been reached. We are being told by some individuals involved on this side of the pond that the issues are all to do with concerns about Canadian farmers and agriculture, yet when I was discussing this issue last night with that representative of the Canadian Prime Minister the concerns were all about the demands of the EU in terms of our agriculture. This two-year time frame presents a real challenge for us, therefore. If an agreement cannot be secured after so much time between the EU and Canada, there is a real question about whether the EU-US agreement can be secured within two years.

The two-year time frame should be applauded for its ambition, however. We should go into all negotiations with an ambitious timetable, but we also need to be realistic and acknowledge that that agreement with Canada is not yet in place. It would be a great achievement if we could have that agreement in place to show the way forward for a genuine free trade agreement between the EU and the US.

[Julian Smith]

Does my hon. Friend agree that pace is important, however, lest lobby groups and trade groups—especially very dynamic ones in America—get their act together and start slowing things down to the point of halting progress?

[Guto Bebb]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that excellent point. It is one of the key concerns in relation to the fact that we are still waiting for a Canada-EU agreement, because the more the issue is highlighted, the more it seems that the opponents come forward with further concerns about why the agreement should not go ahead. As I have said, I do believe we should support this ambitious target, but I highlight the fact that the experience in relation to Canada has not as yet been particularly positive.

I also think we should express concern at the ability of some countries in Europe to highlight their protectionist views in relation to this proposed agreement. It is a concern that the audio-visual sector has been excluded from negotiations. That is also a positive issue in many ways, however, because the decision to move ahead with talks has been made despite the fact that the European side has excluded that sector. We are aware of why that specific area has been excluded, but it is encouraging to see that one problem has not necessarily resulted in a decision that the whole negotiations should be stopped.

That shows a pragmatic attitude, which we saw when I was in Washington last year. People on the Hill felt that this was an opportunity to create a genuine agreement between the EU and the US. That is noticeable, because there was a feeling when we were there that the time to strike on such an important issue is when people can see the advantages. When the economies of the western world are doing well, the need for such an agreement is perhaps less.

Last summer in Washington, it was very apparent that people felt that the States still required fundamental changes to their economy. They saw the opportunity for freer trade with the EU as important and thought that it would lead to a much better agreement on much better global trading. An important point about free trade between the EU and US that has not been made this afternoon is that we would end up with an agreement on regulations, for example, that would be acceptable in many parts of the global economy. If the EU and the US were to agree on certain consumer protection standards that were acceptable to those two large trading blocs, they could be the basis for agreements on a raft of other issues that would allow other parts of the global economy to aspire to enjoy the benefit of global free trade and of an EU-US trade agreement by working to the same standards rather than undercutting them.

[Mr Cash]

I want to make a simple point. Some of the commentators—I would include myself—are slightly concerned that the objectives from the European point of view are driven less by the question of free trade and more by the idea of becoming a linchpin of the moves towards political union so that they can stitch up deals all over the world under the Lisbon treaty, which would then result in a greater opportunity for political union. Does he agree that that is a possibility?

[Guto Bebb]

I would be reluctant to agree with that rather negative view of the reasons behind the trade agreement. Again, one of the reasons I was keen to be involved in the all-party group was to ensure that we discuss such issues openly. If there are significant concerns of that nature, it is important that they are aired and that we instigate a public discussion.

Let me finish on the issue of whether such a trade agreement will have an effect on our relationship with the European Union. I am often made despondent by the behaviour of the EU and I believe that we need to renegotiate the relationship between it and the UK. We need to show the people of this country once more that the EU could benefit us, rather than being problematic, a drag on economic growth and a cause of deep frustration. As someone who represents a constituency that is dependent on small businesses, I see that small businesses clearly feel frustrated by much of what comes out of Europe.

The agreement is a hugely important opportunity for the EU to show the people of the UK that the EU can provide us with much more trade, which is what we want from our relationship with our European partners, and much less of the other stuff, which is so problematic. This is a challenge to not just the United Kingdom but our European partners to show that we can create something in the EU that will benefit the economies of Europe and the rest of the world. That is the challenge that the EU needs to stand up to. If it fails, it will make a huge problem for the future of our relationship with the EU.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Blomfield]

The Conservative party’s alliances when the hon. Gentleman was in the European Parliament were better than those it has made subsequently.

[Guto Bebb]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Paul Blomfield]

Let me make some progress, My point is that the Prime Minister did not understand that the more red meat he threw to those on his right, the more they would want. We find ourselves being pushed towards the exit door of the European Union at a time when the case for membership has never been stronger.

Let me turn to the trade deal and the comments made earlier by the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash), who sadly is no longer in his place, when he sought to diminish the importance of our trade with the European Union. The EU is the UK’s main trading partner and comprises around 52% of the UK’s total trade in goods and services. Of course growing markets in China and India are important, but those two markets account for 5.6% and 1.6% of our current trade. Through the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the Government estimate that 3.5 million jobs in Britain are linked, directly or indirectly, to our trade with EU member states.

Let us look to the future. It has been estimated that by 2020 the UK will have fallen to the ninth largest economy in the world. In contrast, the EU is the largest economy in the world, home to 7.4% of the world’s population and accounting for almost 20% of world GDP. The EU is not important to the UK simply for that reason, but also because of the access it provides to other markets. The EU is the top trading partner for 80 countries and currently has free trade agreements with more than 40. That process is continuing, and the EU is currently negotiating agreements with more than 70 countries, including important UK partners such as India and Japan, as well as growing economies such as Brazil. According to the CBI, the European Union has negotiated trade agreements that cover around 30% of trade outside the EU area, and it is in the process of raising that figure to 70%.

It has been estimated that the deal we are considering today will generate around €119 billion of benefits to the EU and create 2 million jobs. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne pointed out in his opening remarks, that could benefit the UK economy by up to £10 billion a year. My hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) was right to point out that current tariffs averaging around 4% are quite low, but given the volume of trade, the benefits are significant. Even more significant—my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne referred to this—is the alignment of regulatory standards and the opportunity that offers not only for trade between these two important blocs, but in raising standards internationally.

My right hon. Friend was also right to highlight concerns about the potential privatisation of public services—a threat that has been targeted wrongly at this deal. It is important that we reassure those who are worried about the impact of this deal on public services, and the health service in particular, which might disappoint some Conservative Members who would like to see much greater privatisation.

In the free trade agreements that the EU has negotiated, public services exemptions are provided in two ways: first, by provisions that refer to

“services exercised under Government authority”—

the police, for example, and the justice system—and, secondly, by provision for public utilities, which would cover health care. The former provisions are automatically excluded from all trade agreements. The latter are not automatically excluded but reservations are attached that allow EU member states to maintain public provision or limit access to a certain number of providers—both domestic and foreign—in those sectors.

It is important that we send a clear message that the EU-US trade agreement in itself cannot lead to further privatisation of health care in this country. The policies of this Government will do that—or perhaps not, if they are successfully defeated. The trade agreement could, however, lead to a significant boost to the UK economy. It would be the most significant bilateral agreement, and our combined economies are worth almost 40% of world GDP. We must be honest when responding to comments made by some Government Members who are no longer in their seats, and recognise where we stand internationally. The UK alone would not have the negotiating clout of the EU in striking the sort of deal that would benefit all member states, including the UK. As with so many other things, we are stronger together in Europe, and this deal is yet another reason why we must be at the centre of the European Union.

Oral Answers to Questions

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Thursday 7th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Vince Cable]

Yes, I am familiar with the site. It was strategically important for childhood trainspotting, as I recall, quite apart from its potential for housing and regeneration. I am happy to meet the hon. Gentleman. I have already discussed this matter with the council leader and the chief executive. They need some support for infrastructure, although the scale of that is not terribly clear, but we are certainly keen to take this forward.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

T8. Does the Secretary of State share my concerns that the Financial Services Authority redress scheme for businesses mis- sold interest rate swap products excludes those businesses that have a life swap value in excess of £10 million, despite the fact that those businesses would otherwise be characterised as “unsophisticated” by the FSA’s own rules?

[Vince Cable]

First, I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his work on behalf of the up to 100,000 companies that have been mis-sold these swaps. It is a terrible scandal and he was one of the first people to highlight it. I think the position is now much better, but he is right to say that there are some anomalies at the borderline. The definition of “sophisticated companies” is not simply confined to scale, which I think is the point he is trying to make. I will continue to make that point to the FSA and the banks.

Self-Employment

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mark Garnier]

I will come to the regulatory burden in a minute. My hon. Friend is right. I have seen a turkey farm that has had to comply with huge industrial reporting requirements for toxic chemicals, because turkeys produce ammonia, but it also has to prove that it is not producing a great range of other chemicals. These are the unintended consequences of over-bureaucratic regulation.

The FSB provides a great deal of helpful data on business attitudes. Sticking with the taxation issue, 60% of FSB members—two thirds of businesses—complained that the UK tax system is not only too complex, but has a negative impact on their ability to take on more staff and expand.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

The VAT threshold creates problems for micro-businesses. The fact that that kicks in at £73,000 is a cliff edge for many small businesses, because if they hit that level, they end up being penalised to the tune of £10,000, so they make a decision not to grow. Having a tax cliff edge of that nature is a barrier to growth for many micro-businesses in my constituency.

[Mark Garnier]

I agree. Our complex tax code is full of all sorts of unintended consequences exactly like the one that my hon. Friend mentioned. It is ridiculous having a tax that means businesses going above £73,000 will have to start charging their customers. That is a disincentive to growth in terms of going out and gathering business. If people stay below that threshold, it is a disincentive to employ more people.

Economic Growth and Employment

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Metcalfe]

I could not agree with my hon. Friend more. That is another problem that we have to sort out by clearing up the mess left by the previous Government.

Despite what Labour Members say and despite the sentiment behind this motion, we are, I believe, making good progress. As we have heard, we are creating the most competitive tax system in the G20; we are investing in businesses to help them start up and grow; we are encouraging inward investment and supporting exports; we are investing in science and technology and creating a more educated and more flexible work force. Of course there is still more to do, and I believe we are doing it.

For example, today, my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary announced new reforms to employment law—mentioned by the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna)—as part of the Government’s plan for growth, which will cut unnecessary demands on business while safeguarding workers’ rights. However, if we listen to the instant reaction from Labour, we find that they would have us believe that these measures are anti-employment and the reforms are about making it easier for companies to fire staff. I believe that the reverse is true. The Opposition spend a lot of time trying to cast employers as the bad guys—as a group of money grabbers trying to get rich off the backs of the workers.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Is my hon. Friend interested to hear the comments of the former Labour MEP Eluned Morgan, who is now a Baroness, when she stated that many in the private sector had sensed the animosity of the Labour party towards that sector?

[Stephen Metcalfe]

I would indeed agree with that view. I believe that all Government Members, and I suspect some Opposition Members too, would agree that the vast majority of businesses, especially small and medium-sized enterprises, know that their most valuable asset is their staff. Employers need staff and staff need employers. The problem has been that in the current economic climate firms are cautious about taking on additional risk, and that often means being cautious about taking on additional staff. I believe that making it easier for companies to manage their staff levels makes it easier for them to take on staff. Knowing that the risks of employment have been reduced might well unlock the employment door.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

I am grateful to have the opportunity to bring a Welsh perspective to this debate. The hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) is no longer in his place, but I must say that his speech was much more coherent than the Opposition’s motion.

When considering economic growth across the entire United Kingdom, it is important to remember that there is a Labour Government in Wales, and we can compare and contrast what is happening in Wales with the positive steps the coalition Government are taking in supporting enterprise and private sector growth. Businesses in Wales are crying out for the enterprise zone idea to be implemented in Wales, yet we are still awaiting a coherent announcement from the Welsh Assembly. We in Wales have a Labour Minister for enterprise and the economy who has stated that she regrets capitalism. It is therefore no surprise that the Institute of Directors and other organisations have stated they feel that there is no partnership with the Labour Assembly Government and that Labour rejects, rather than embraces, the private sector.

[Steve Rotheram]

Does the hon. Gentleman not understand that there is a symbiotic relationship between the public and private sectors? If we cut one, the other bleeds. What is needed at present is a transfusion for the private sector, which is part of Labour’s five-point plan.

[Guto Bebb]

If what we are seeing in Wales is an example of Labour economic thinking, I am very pleased that it is in opposition in the rest of the United Kingdom. The truth of the matter is that the Labour party in Wales has shown across the generations a failure to understand the importance of supporting enterprise.

[Bill Esterson]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Guto Bebb]

Not at the moment, as I wish to finish the point I am making. The valley communities in Wales have suffered extremely badly not just for 10 or 15 years, but over a period of 30, 40 and 50 years, and it is fair to point out that throughout that entire time they have, unfortunately, been electing Labour councillors, Labour MPs and Labour Assembly Members. There was a fantastic business support programme in the south Wales valleys called the heads of the valleys innovation programme. It was such a good programme that in 2010 it won the award for the most successful enterprise support programme in the entire United Kingdom. What did the Labour Administration in Cardiff do? They cut its funding, and that was the end of an organisation that had supported hundreds of businesses and protected more than 4,000 jobs in some of the most deprived communities in the United Kingdom. It was cut because it was supporting private enterprise, which the Labour party does not understand or embrace.

Despite the fact that the motion, in general, is incoherent, I want to follow up a few points. In my constituency, we are extremely dependent on tourism, which is a major driver of growth in north Wales. It is imperative, in my view, that that sector is supported. I should point out that under pressure the Welsh Assembly has finally acknowledged that the sector deserves support, but initially the Welsh Assembly Government stated that tourism deserved no support whatsoever.

My concern about tourism is that as a coalition Government we stress the need to create a competitive tax regime for our businesses but in Europe other countries are significantly reducing VAT on tourism. It is important that we have a level playing field and I ask the Secretary of State to consider discussing the issue with the Treasury to ensure that tourism in Wales can benefit from similar VAT rates to those in other parts of Europe, including Ireland and France. There are reports to which I have access that state that the multiplier effect of making such cuts would be financially beneficial to the Treasury.

The other issue that is imperative for growth in the economy is support for small businesses. It is all very well to say that there will be a cut in the corporation tax rate, but most of the new start-up businesses that are creating real employment in my constituency will be sole traders and partnerships. Obviously, they will benefit from the increase in personal allowances, but a key issue that creates a problem for them is the VAT registration threshold. Nobody denies that the UK has a very high VAT registration threshold at £73,000, but that is not my complaint. As businesses grow and start to reach the threshold, they find themselves on a cliff edge. If they go over that level, they have to register for VAT and lose a significant part of their profitability. We need to reconsider the VAT threshold to support small businesses.

I understand that we are running out of time in the debate, so I shall leave that issue with the Secretary of State. To support small businesses in my constituency, we need to consider the VAT threshold and how it interacts with profitability.

Outdoor Learning

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Wednesday 15th December 2010 Westminster Hall

[Mr Williams]

Absolutely. One of the benefits of the project that I was involved in was that we considered the seasonality of fruit and vegetables. I think that it is assumed that because children live in a rural area they have automatic access to farms and to schemes of the kind that the NFU and others, such as the Farmers Union of Wales, have put forward. That assumption should not be made. That is why the debate is important, for getting some clear guidelines. It is beginning to seem a little like a Welsh debate—I am proud of that, but I shall not stray on to devolved matters.

Every year at the school where I taught we took the year 5 and 6 children to stay at an outdoor pursuit centre in Montgomeryshire, where they could do kayaking, orienteering, rock climbing, mountain walks and canoeing—the very kinds of activities from which many children with special needs, who were not high achievers in the classroom, really gained. We were teaching concepts of teamwork, collaborative work and team building. Those were important opportunities for the children.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

The point that my hon. Friend makes about the outdoor pursuit centre is important. My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) made the point that health and safety is an issue when taking children out of the classroom, and such outdoor pursuit centres have health and safety covered; they have the skills to deal with pupils safely and give them the experiences that have been described.

[Mr Williams]

I agree very much. One of the nice things for a teacher organising such trips was that there was no need to get embroiled in the bureaucracy of organising a risk assessment; it had already been done by trained professionals.

This is a core debate, not a peripheral thing. It is not a trendy lefty debate about the effectiveness of group work or topic work—debates that have happened in the past. It is about enhancing learning in the classroom, teaching in context, teaching in the real world and broadening horizons in the strongest way. As I reflect on my education, I recall that the only such opportunity that I had in secondary school—there was little in primary school—was the Duke of Edinburgh’s award scheme. That is a great scheme, with great opportunities for young people, but very much curtailed and limited.

Was there, in the three schools where I taught, always a dedicated member of staff with expertise, responsible for developing the outdoor curriculum? If there was, in some instances it was not very visible. Should we give more prominence to outdoor education in initial teacher training? I did a PGCE course, from which I benefited; I gained my qualification and enjoyed my 12 years in the classroom, but there were limitations with respect to outdoor education.

To repeat a question that has been put to the Minister, is the initial teacher training that we provide giving teachers the skills that they need to lead outdoor learning? It is all very well talking about identifying opportunities; teachers sit there developing their lesson plans and identifying opportunities. It is a matter of whether those opportunities for outdoor learning can be delivered. It is not about burdening the curriculum. I agree with the direction of travel: it is about scaling down the curriculum.

Years ago, I worked as a researcher in the other place. When the national curriculum was introduced in 1988, I remember the huge number of representations from different organisations in favour of including subjects in the national curriculum. That was an over-burdening experience.

I also remember, years later when I was in the classroom, the minutiae of detail directed from the centre about how I should deliver a numeracy hour and a literacy hour, down to the five minutes of a plenary session at the end. We are moving away from that over-prescriptive period. There is consensus among all who have spoken so far that we are seeking to build meaningful cross-curricular links in key areas of the curriculum—notably geography, history and science—for which outdoor activities are appropriate.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire mentioned, the Select Committee on Children, Schools and Families produced its report in April 2010. I want to draw on three of its conclusions. First, the report talked of the ability of families to pay, or their inability to pay, for trips and the deterrent to schools in offering opportunities to pupils. At one school where I taught, there was a blanket policy. We could not countenance any outlandish trips, because we knew that the parents in the deprived wards of that area would be unable even to subsidise their children’s trips.

The Select Committee recognised the principle of subsidies for children from low-income families for school trips, and I think that that should be endorsed. The report also talked about an individual entitlement within the national curriculum to at least one school visit each term. That is integral to the curriculum that needs to be delivered. I would like to hear the Minister’s comments on that individual entitlement to outdoor education.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

I will be brief to ensure that every hon. Member who wants to contribute can do so. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) on bringing this excellent and positive debate to the House.

My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) declared an interest because he has one child going through the school foundation stage in Wales. I have twin boys and another three children going through the educational system in Wales, so I, too, need to declare an interest. When we talk about the educational benefits of outdoor activities, we in Wales are very fortunate. I do not want to dominate the debate by referring to Wales again, but as a child I used to go to the Urdd Gobaith Cymru centre in Llangrannog in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams). When I was slightly older, I went to the centre at Glan Llyn, where I learned canoeing and white-water rafting. The terrible thing is that I am now old enough to see my children getting the same experiences.

The concept of getting children into the outdoors and enjoying pursuits is important and I fully subscribe to the comments made by several hon. Members.

I wish to focus on a slightly different aspect of the importance of outdoor activities to the educational sector—its economic impact on constituencies such as mine. My constituency of Aberconwy includes a large tract of Snowdonia. The area has had to struggle to create employment and economic opportunities, and we have had to make the best of the facilities and the environment that we have. Agriculture is obviously important, as is food production and our specialist food producers, but a growing part of the economy in my part of the world has been the outdoor activity sector.

That sector is not entirely dependent on educational customers, but they allow companies to offer an all-year service, with year-round employment for young people from my constituency. I could give numerous examples— they will challenge Hansard—of organisations and companies in my part of the world that benefit from providing services to schools in all parts of the United Kingdom.

For instance, Plas y Brenin at Capel Curig is renowned as a mountaineering centre. We have an outdoor education centre at Conwy, which brings young people to the Conwy valley to enjoy white-water rafting and so forth. Tree Top Adventure offers excellent facilities at Betws-y-Coed, but it depends on school trips to allow it to offer employment every day of the week and all year round; it makes an important contribution to the economy of my constituency.

We also have specialist companies that deal with the health and safety aspects. They offer a safe environment for young people to experience the adventure and the challenges offered by the environment in areas such as mine. Snowdonia is not there only for the enjoyment of people who can afford to pay for an expensive hotel or a slightly cheaper bed and breakfast for a weekend visit. The environment of Snowdonia should be enjoyed by young people.

In addition to private sector companies offering services in my constituency and throughout Snowdonia, we have a number of other centres, including the Oaklands Centre at Capel Garmon. Oaklands is owned by Wirral borough council. It is about an hour and a half down the road from the Wirral to my constituency. Young people are brought from an industrialised area and taken to the beauty of Snowdonia where they can enjoy the challenge of getting involved in outdoor activities. The contribution made by the Oaklands centre is also economic. For instance, it employs local people to ensure that there is food on the table when the young people arrive.

Throughout Snowdonia, numerous centres are in danger of being lost because of the priorities of local authorities, which may not emphasise the importance of their contribution to the educational sector. I am therefore concerned about the future of centres such as Oaklands. They are important not only because of the opportunities that they give the young people who visit them, but because they give people in my constituency the opportunity to stay and work in a rural area, often in highly skilled positions. It needs to be said that the opportunities afforded by the outdoor activity centres in my part of the world are extremely important because of the quality of the jobs that are created. Taking responsibility for groups of young people going mountaineering or out on rivers is a highly skilled position.

I applaud the local authorities in my part of the world. We hear a lot about the need for local authorities to work across boundaries. In north-west Wales, Isle of Anglesey county council, Gwynedd county council and Conwy county borough council have come together to form the North Wales Outdoor Partnership. It was developed to give young people from that part of the world an understanding of not only the enjoyment that can be had from the environment of Snowdonia, but the economic opportunities that exist. The partnership takes young people out to enjoy mountaineering, kayaking and so on, but it also highlights the economic opportunities that can develop from becoming skilled in such activities. Numerous young people have found employment as a result of the skills gained through the partnership.

Menter Iaith Conwy, a local company, has highlighted the need to train young people to be responsible for taking people out on to the mountains. The fantastic thing is that the company is training people through the medium of Welsh or English. Again, it highlights the fact that economic opportunities are available through outdoor education.

Government spending is not necessarily the way forward for every part of the economy; those organisations and companies could develop employment opportunities in the private sector. However, the educational market is important in ensuring proper employment all year round. When such decisions are made, it is important that we take account of the economic impact of those activities on the rural economy.