Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill (First sitting)

Gill German Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Georgia Gould]

Q You have talked a little about the kind of police pressures that exist. I would be interested in both of your assessments, given your experience, of the police’s capacity and ability to investigate public sector fraud, and whether that means there is more of a need for civil powers.

Alex Rothwell: If we look across other international jurisdictions, we see that law enforcement agencies often have quite distinctive public sector fraud or crime functions—for example, the FBI has an extensive healthcare fraud capacity. The way policing has evolved over the last 20 or 30 years, particularly with an emphasis on drug supply, knife crime and firearms, has meant there is little capacity in policing to tackle public sector fraud, and of course there is an ever-present terrorism threat, which is changing rapidly. There is also safeguarding, with the National Crime Agency having quoted publicly the figures in terms of people who are a risk to children, for example.

One of the challenges is that even if you invest more in fraud capability, when a crisis happens, whether that is because of public order or some other form of crisis, policing has to flex more than other investigations. Inevitably, crimes like fraud are perhaps easier to put on hold for a time. Certainly since 2018 we have seen a gradual professionalisation and an increasing capability in the public sector, which I endorse. We could invest more in the police, but my concern is that there will continue to be crises that affect policing that will impact the ability of policing to support the public sector in the way that is required.

Kristin Jones: I agree with everything that Alex just said. The same applies to prosecution: if you have specialist prosecutors, where the resource is ringfenced, they do not get dragged away, but if you have them in with other prosecutors, it depends on what the pressure is at any particular time as to what resource is going to be given to fraud prosecutions.

[Gill German (Clwyd North) (Lab)]

Q We have talked about the increased public acceptability of fraud, and attitudes towards that, and indeed the social-media guides that are out there—the “how to” guides—that present it as a victimless crime. Along with improvements to investigative powers, what will the Bill’s very existence do to change that public narrative?

Alex Rothwell: One thing that we have always struggled to do is put a value on deterrence, because it is quite hard to say categorically that someone has not done something because of a change in approach to something. However, it is my view that, once it is known that there are increased powers in this space and that individuals will be pursued for funds, we will see some behaviour change. We could potentially quantify that, but the challenge is directly relating it to the Bill, particularly if you introduce other measures at the same time. I think there will be a powerful deterrent effect if it is exercised correctly and at scale and the public can see the benefits.

Kristin Jones: I agree. If people know there is an increased likelihood that they will be detected, that will have an effect. It is also important to use similar means to get the right narrative across about what you should and should not be doing.

[Georgia Gould]

Q I am interested in the point you made about future-proofing against future pandemics or crises. Can you both give us your reflections on what you learned from the covid pandemic? Do you feel the Bill addresses what we need to do to ensure that we do not end up with the level of fraud we saw during the pandemic?

Kristin Jones: We have to plan for emergencies—they will, inevitably, occur—and the work on that should be kept up to date so that you can refer back to one you prepared earlier. That is so important because when there is an emergency, everybody is doing their best to get through it as fast as they can, and that is not the time for slow consideration, whereas having been through that experience, now is the time to reflect and document what we are going to do in future.

Alex Rothwell: Fundamentally it is about the loosening of controls, our understanding of the impact of the loosening of controls, and the friction that is or is not introduced when you are addressing an emergency. We also now have a much better understanding of how that can manifest itself. But I am confident that the Bill would enable an effective response.

Oral Answers to Questions

Gill German Excerpts

Thursday 5th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[Pat McFadden]

Let me assure the hon. Lady that my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General, who leads on this, is fully aware of the issues she has raised. He is working with the groups affected and is determined to ensure that initial payments are out by the end of the year.

[Gill German (Clwyd North) (Lab)]

T4.   This Government have rightly made tackling child poverty a top priority. Of course, this is not a children problem but a society problem, so I welcome the cross-Departmental approach that has been taken. Last week, the “Get Britain Working” White Paper was published. Does my hon. Friend agree that helping people, particularly parents, into decent, well-paid jobs is a key part of that agenda?

[The Minister without Portfolio (Ellie Reeves)]

It is shameful that child poverty increased by 700,000 under the last Government. Tackling child poverty is at the heart of this Government’s mission. The child poverty taskforce, which I sit on, will publish its strategy in the spring. Increasing the number of parents who are working, and their earnings and hours, plays a crucial role and that is why our plans to get Britain working and the Employment Rights Bill are important in tackling the scourge of child poverty.

Oral Answers to Questions

Gill German Excerpts

Wednesday 9th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Anneliese Dodds]

The reality is that we saw reported rates of different forms of violence against women and girls rise repeatedly under the previous Government, and charge rates fell shamefully low. The Government will not stand by in the face of that national emergency. We will act. That is why we have set a cross-Government mission—no more talk but action—and we are determined to deliver it for the sake of women and girls.

[Gill German (Clwyd North) (Lab)]

3. What steps she is taking with Cabinet colleagues to tackle the impact of socioeconomic disadvantage on future earnings.

[Dr Beccy Cooper (Worthing West) (Lab)]

13. What steps she is taking with Cabinet colleagues to tackle the impact of socioeconomic disadvantage on future earnings.

[The Minister for Women and Equalities (Bridget Phillipson)]

The Government are committed to breaking the link between young people’s backgrounds and their future success. I am proud to lead our opportunity mission across government, through which we will ensure that every child thrives in education and achieves their ambitions in work and later life, no matter what their background.

[Gill German]

In Wales, breaking down barriers to opportunity has long been an area of work, but with so many levers of change having been in the hands of a UK Tory Government, success over the past 14 years has been greatly hampered. Will my right hon. Friend assure me that Cabinet colleagues in this Government will work closely with Welsh Government partners, so that future earnings in Clwyd North reflect the huge potential that I see in our children and young people every day?

[Bridget Phillipson]

Yes, I give my hon. Friend that assurance. We will work closely with devolved Governments to make sure that we are all pulling together to break down the barriers that too many of our young people face. That is why the work on child poverty that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and I are leading on is so crucial. We know that child poverty is an issue that blights too many lives across the UK.