Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Bill

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 10th May 2023 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

I support this Bill as a necessity, without any particular enthusiasm, and I echo and endorse entirely what my hon. Friend the Minister said in exhorting political parties to get back into Stormont to deliver for people. I also echo the point made by the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle), about the importance of learning from the process of talks and leadership that got us to the Good Friday agreement. We cannot sit like latter-day Mr Micawbers, waiting for something to turn up; we have to try to make the weather. I suggest to my hon. and right hon. Friends on the Government Front Bench that if conversations are not already being had with Dublin as one of the two capital co-guarantors of the Good Friday agreement, they should re-inject some energy, pull people in and find out precisely what the issues are and what, if anything, can be done to address them and rebuild trust, in order to get back to serving the people of Northern Ireland through directly elected politicians.

Over this coronation weekend, I learned from our vicar in Blandford Forum a new Henry Ford quote—it was new to me, although possibly not to anybody else. Henry Ford once said that if he had asked the population at the time what they wanted, they would not have said a motor car; they would have said that they wanted a faster horse. Sometimes, we as politicians have to make the weather, and show leadership and shape the debate, rather than merely echo what the base has to say. That requires the vision, the courage and the bravery that we saw from that political class in the mid-1990s, running through to the Good Friday agreement. I am an optimist, and I believe that that spirit of delivery in public service still exists. It is not beyond the wit of this place and the political parties in Northern Ireland to resurrect it and to see Stormont come back.

I think we all recognise that for too long, bold and brave policy initiatives in Northern Ireland have been slightly less to the fore. There has been a tendency to ask for additional moneys from the Treasury, and the Treasury coughing up and providing it through some avenue or another. Everybody is conscious of the unique history of Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom, and therefore of the additional needs for public expenditure and intervention that are required, which are different from any other part of the UK. However, as we, hopefully, move forward—we discussed this at the Select Committee this morning, and Sir David Sterling certainly echoed this point—in order to deliver step changes of improvement for those who use public services, a greater reliance on match funding from the Treasury needs to be looked at. That means that local politicians in Northern Ireland deliver new streams of money, either through revenue or expenditure savings, and the Treasury provides new money. To just continually provide new money with no concomitant reform from Belfast does not serve any particular purpose, and arguably raises too many questions in the minds of English voters as to why they are not getting a greater share of the public purse than, for example, those in Northern Ireland, because they too readily and easily forget the difficult history.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

The Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee will remember that back in January, he and I argued the toss on issues of how Northern Ireland is financed. Since then, I appreciate that he took a letter from me. He understood exactly where I was coming from on the structural improvements required for the funding of Northern Ireland and launched an inquiry in that regard. I appreciate those efforts, but I regret that even today he is talking about coughing up on a regular basis more and more money from the Treasury, when he knows from the Fiscal Council that this is not a separate discussion about reform, though that is necessary and important for the delivery of public services. Northern Ireland is structurally underfunded by this Parliament, and it has been for years, with a compounding impact on the ability to deliver public services. Rather than pitch us against his constituents in England, would it not be better for him to reflect on the structural underfunding, the resolve to get Northern Ireland to a more sustainable place with public finances and the need to use a comparator such as Wales, which went through exactly the same process 15 years ago, culminating in a financial uplift 10 years ago?

[Simon Hoare]

Let me answer that point first. The hon. Gentleman makes a perfectly valid point, and I am grateful to him for being the genesis for the Committee’s current inquiry, which is proving incredibly useful. He is right to talk about the disparity, and perhaps the phrase “coughing up” might not have been the most elegant I could have used, but he knows me well enough to know that elegance is not one of my greatest strengths. I can almost feel a second letter of “I agree with you” coming from him. He will be pleased to know that the one he sent me some months ago adorns the wall of the downstairs loo, as a rare thing of him agreeing with something that I said in this place in a debate on Northern Ireland.

In all seriousness—this is a point we discussed upstairs in Committee—constituents in England, Wales and Scotland are paying for things that residents of Northern Ireland currently are not paying for. While he is right to point to some of the structural imbalances, it does need to be a two-way street. There should not be an opportunity for the continuance of water and other things being outwith the charging mechanisms while expecting additional resource from Treasury to meet that gap. If he has looked at the reports of the Fiscal Council, he will see clearly the amount of money that could be generated by introducing charges.

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[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

I appreciate being called earlier than I had anticipated, Mr Deputy Speaker. We had a brief conversation earlier, and despite what you said, the prospect of another four and a half hours of debate is probably too tantalising to ignore. Although normally I do not speak for long, I may take the opportunity to speak a little longer this afternoon. [Interruption.] I jest.

Like others, I lament the fact that we are debating this Bill this afternoon and dealing with a Northern Ireland Office that, yet again, I am sorry to say, is missing a crucial opportunity. It is a Northern Ireland Office that has lost any sense of strategic direction; it has lost the ability to engage, understand and resolve some of the pressures that we have in Northern Ireland. I lament the fact that the relationships from which we benefited over the last few decades no longer exist, and I lament, more than anything else, the fact that, while the Bill has been described this afternoon as legislation that closes a constitutional gap—or continues a governance gap—that opportunity has been 100% missed.

It did not need to be this way. The Northern Ireland Office had been actively engaged with the Northern Ireland civil service over the last three or four months, and had drafted provisions for the Bill that would have given the Secretary of State step-in powers and the opportunity to assist with some of the difficult decisions that are facing our Northern Ireland public service Departments. However, the NIO actively chose to leave those provisions out of the Bill. I know that this is not a Committee stage, but because new clause 5 has not been selected, I will say now that we tabled it to highlight the point that the choices that now rest with permanent secretaries in Northern Ireland are unfathomable. The opportunity was there for political direction on the taking of decisions when political direction was required, but those in the Northern Ireland Office have chosen not to take it. They will continue to say what they have said over the last few months—“It is not for us to make political choices”—but that is a political choice that they have made.

When the Government raised the rates in Northern Ireland this year, while still talking about revenue raising and the need for more finance to come from Northern Ireland, they made a political choice. They increased the burden on homeowners, domestic ratepayers, by 6%, and excluded businesses by freezing their regional rate. They made a political choice. When they talk about revenue raising, they know that some £1.5 billion to £1.7 billion a year is raised from revenue. If every domestic and non-domestic ratepayer in Northern Ireland paid 50% on top of their bills that are due next week, that would still not cover the shortfall that faces Northern Ireland Departments as a result of the budget given to them by the NIO.

When that budget was delivered last week, it was delivered in the explicit knowledge of the decisions that permanent secretaries would have to make, but cannot make. Everyone in the Chamber is aware of the legislative preclusions that prevent them from making those decisions. Members know the impact of the Buick and JR80 judgments. They know that the permanent secretaries cannot do that. They had indicated in advance to the Northern Ireland Office—to the Secretary of State and the Minister of State—that the budget that they were handed would mean they would have to take decisions that would conflict fundamentally with the statutory obligations and duties that they have to undertake. They cannot do it.

While the flexibility on the £279 million is useful in one sense, it is hugely dangerous in another, given the damage that it will do through the breach of parity in public pay awards between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. Anything that is agreed in the forthcoming weeks and months in England will benefit public workers in England but not those in Northern Ireland, and that gap will grow. The flexibility is useful, but given the direct knowledge of the underspend and the challenging decisions that will have to be taken, it is outrageous that that is the sort of offer that our Departments have received.

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)]

I agree with much of what the hon. Member is saying about the failure of the Northern Ireland Office to address the governance gap, but does he not think it is a little bit difficult for people to hear him say such things when his party has the power to address all the concerns he has been raising if they return to the Executive? While he is right to criticise the Government, surely he should also exercise some self-reflection on the role of his own party, because all those ills could be cured by him and his colleagues tomorrow.

[Gavin Robinson]

I find it amazing that the hon. Gentleman has made that point. He knows it is the biggest falsehood that is being peddled today, and it was addressed earlier by my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson). If the Executive were up and running tomorrow, the fundamental damage being caused by the budget and the fundamental choices having to be made would still be there, but the resource would not. Departments are saying today that there is an £800 million shortfall in their ability to deliver, and that they will now have to take decisions that conflict with their statutory obligations, and that same choice will be there tomorrow unless the Government say that they will reflect on the systematic and systemic underfunding of the Northern Ireland budget, and will recognise that the Barnett formula must be assessed on the basis of need. Unless that happens, the choices that are there today will be the choices that are there tomorrow.

Let me spell it out. What do we know from the Department of Justice? It is hundreds of millions of pounds short of what it needs. The police alone do not have enough money to cover last year’s shortfall, let alone an additional £35 million shortfall this year. Where can they make the cuts? They can make them through headcount and non-pay. On headcount, we know that devolution was restored in 2020 under the New Decade, New Approach agreement, which recognised that policing numbers needed to reach 7,500. In March this year the figure was 6,700, and it is projected to be 6,400 in March next year. That is the sort of choice that is available today to a permanent secretary, and would be available tomorrow to a restored Government.

Earlier today, the Minister of State was answering questions about the cost of living crisis, but yesterday we heard from the Department for Communities about the extent of its shortfall. A third of the social homes that were planned to be built this year cannot be built: 2,000 were projected, and 1,400 will be delivered. No money is available for the new health assessments associated with benefits, and there is not enough money to progress the assessment of benefit applications. That is what has been delivered by the NIO: choices that are there today and would still be there tomorrow if there were a return to devolution.

Then there is the enormous shortfall in the Department for Infrastructure, where the permanent secretary is highlighting her statutory obligations and the money she does not have in order to meet them. So what are her choices? To stop gritting the roads? To stop treating waste water? How often do we hear about the importance of climate issues and looking after our environment? But that is one of the choices available to the permanent secretary in the Department for Infrastructure. Another is to turn off the street lights. I do not think that the Secretary of State or the Minister of State or the NIO is interested in streetlights. The only thing in which they seem to be interested at present is gaslights, because the politics of all this has been about gaslighting people in Northern Ireland. What is psychologically questioning our understanding of how finances work, and telling us that we are overfunded when we know that we are structurally underfunded—standing in this Chamber and saying, “Oh, but Northern Ireland gets 121% of what people in England get”, when we know that that is less than what Northern Ireland needs—if it is not gaslighting? That is the diet that we have had over the past number of months, and it seems certain that that is the diet that we are going to continue to get.

The Northern Ireland Fiscal Council has been explicit. When I talked about the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council in this Chamber in January and last year, whoosh, it went straight over people’s heads. It meant nothing. I know that sometimes the figures in these documents are boring, but they are crucially important in terms of the ability to deliver public services for everyone in Northern Ireland.

I represent a constituency that has some incredibly affluent areas, but it also has some incredibly deprived areas where social deprivation is a real thing. Wards in my constituency feature in the top 10 most deprived wards in Northern Ireland. In the Mount ward, at the bottom of my constituency, just off the Newtownards Road, 25% of children are leaving primary school without basic literacy and numeracy skills. Forget the 11-plus—they are going on to secondary school without the basic ability to read, write and count. What has this budget delivered? It has delivered an end to the extended schools programme and an end to free books for babies. Just a few months ago, the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee visited EastSide Learning in my constituency. The chairman cheekily asked, “I see those books—the spines haven’t been broken. Does anyone read them?” He was informed that they were brand new books, but the Department of Education is not going to be able to give brand new books to children in my constituency any more. It is outrageous.

The Pathway funding, which is about ensuring the social, emotional and cognitive development of young children before they get to nursery and primary school, is not going to be there. The Department of Education has said that from June there is no money available for such vital developmental early years intervention. Whether it is the Dee Street and the Ballymacarrett youth centre or the Bloomfield Community Association youth centre, all of these interventions matter. The public services that are delivered in Northern Ireland matter, and this budget fundamentally constrains the opportunity to provide for the needs of those children and our constituents right across Northern Ireland. The opportunity was there, and it should be there, to make a difference.

I want to make this point with as much power as I can: we can debate and talk every day of the week about the pressures that exist with the Northern Ireland protocol, the Windsor framework and the impediments to the return to devolution. Whether people agree with me on those issues or they ignore those issues, that is fine; we will continue to work for resolution. But the point needs to be understood that we cannot and will not have sustainable government in Northern Ireland if we do not have sustainable finances alongside a return to devolution.

The idea that any elected representative is going to stand up in government to stand over the dismal budget that has been provided is for the birds; it is not going to happen. I want to see Northern Ireland work. I want to see Northern Ireland as a place where all communities within our Province are at peace with one another and enjoy the benefits of the country that we have the privilege to live in. These issues need to be resolved and that can happen only when the finance is there to deliver positively for those people.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent contribution to the debate and I fully support what he has said about a needs-based approach. Indeed, I think of the work of the Atlas Women’s Centre in Lisburn, in my constituency, which has used Pathway funding to help some of our youngest children to develop the skills they need for mainstream education. Does my hon. Friend agree with me that in seeking to change the way that our public services are funded, it is essential that in Northern Ireland we also recognise the need for the reform of those public services and that part of what we need from Treasury is investment for reform?

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[Gavin Robinson]

The truth is that the shortfall from last year and the shortfall in this financial year need to be covered—that is the short term. The medium term needs to be about getting reform agreed, and the long term needs to be about sorting out how Northern Ireland is funded and providing a stable way for doing so.

There are huge opportunities. Some people like to dismiss it and some people do not want to listen to it, but the last thing we want to see is a return to devolution where the foundations are unstable. We want sustainable government in Northern Ireland. We want the ability to deliver proudly positive public services for the people of Northern Ireland, and we want to resolve the issues that have created the impediment thus far. There is nothing new in that. Sometimes it takes quite a while for people to hear and listen.

We are getting there. I am sorry that we are having to go through another Bill like this and that opportunities are being missed to deal with delivery for the people in Northern Ireland, through one way or another. We want to protect public services. We want to protect the street lights and end the gaslights. It would be nice to have a debate on these issues where we could talk practically and factually about what the impediments are, which all of us work to resolve.

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[Mr Baker]

With the leave of the House, I rise to close the debate, and I thank all those who have participated in it. Once again, we have seen that on the main substance of the Bill there is wide agreement. There is agreement that it is necessary but regrettable, as we continue to seek to avoid the governance gap.

I will now seek to respond to as many points as I can. The shadow Secretary of State raised the issue of some difficult decisions being too much for officials. We recognise that the Bill is an interim arrangement. It clarifies the powers that civil servants need in order to maintain public services in the absence of an Executive. We recognise that civil servants will be uncomfortable taking some of the difficult decisions that are needed. Indeed, it is possible that they will feel unable to take them, but that, of course, is why we need the Executive back. I am aware that we are sounding like a stuck record, but getting the Executive back is what we are seeking to do.

Before I go any further, I will just say to the hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) that I know the Prime Minister would want me to say that he is fully committed to the return of devolution, but that is a point to which I shall return later.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), who chairs the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, asked about advice. He raised a great point and I am happy to clarify that it is our intention that the options developed for budget sustainability will be shared with the new Executive, and we hope that the new Executive will act swiftly to implement such measures. Further to various points that he made in relation to direct rule, I am absolutely clear that the Bill does not give us any powers to implement measures. I hope that is helpful to my hon. Friend—it is just the powers of the Secretary of State to direct that there should be advice and consultations, which would fall away.

The hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson), who speaks for the SNP, made a speech to which I listened very carefully. I am happy to say that, on this occasion, I did not spot any areas where I disagreed with him, but I shall have to revisit Hansard. I am grateful to him for the manner in which he has approached this debate, and I can assure him that it made a pleasant change.

A number of Members have talked about the budget. I know that if the moment comes that we are forced to bring forward a budget Bill, we will no doubt touch on all of the issues in detail, but I hope the House will forgive me if I do not go into any further detail on that this afternoon. What I will say is that we will have to bring forward a Bill if there is not an Executive, which I and the Secretary of State will regret should that be necessary.

On the issue of funding, the Government have, for many years, recognised the unique challenges that Northern Ireland faces. We have provided about £7 billion in additional funding to Northern Ireland since 2014, on top of the Barnett-based block grant and the Northern Ireland budget. Per person, that is around 20% higher than the equivalent UK Government spending in the rest of the UK. I am well aware of the Fiscal Council’s report, which suggests that, on a needs basis, it should be even higher, but I have to say that 20% extra would go a long way in Wycombe—the streets are not all paved with gold there.

[Gavin Robinson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Baker]

I will, if the hon. Gentleman will let me finish my point.

We do need the Executive back, and not because we believe all the problems will go away—far from it—but because we need the problems to be addressed by Northern Ireland Executive Ministers. I am very clear that the road ahead will be long and hard for those Ministers.

[Gavin Robinson]

Does the Minister accept that, within the next two years, the upward trajectory for the budget in England is 6%, but the trajectory in Northern Ireland is 3.6%? Per household, that equates to £2,000 less in Northern Ireland than for his constituents in Wycombe.

[Mr Baker]

I am confident that the hon. Gentleman has done his homework, but I hope he will forgive me for saying that I will not confirm the figures when I do not have them immediately in front of me in the terms that he has put them. As I mentioned in oral questions earlier today, for all of us in this House, and indeed in all the devolved institutions, we do need to engage with the fiscal projections of the Office for Budget Responsibility. There is no doubt in my mind that, for the rest of our political careers and far beyond, there will be a problem with meeting the many demands of age-related spending. All of us will need to rise to that challenge, as it will need, in particular, healthcare reform. The Bengoa report is long since overdue in implementation. I also talked earlier about healthcare.

A total of £600,000 a day is spent maintaining a divided education system. It cannot be right just on a cost basis, never mind all of the social divisions that it leads to. That conversation needs to be had. I have made that position clear. The Government’s position is very clear: we are in favour of integrated education. I know that there will be a spectrum of views on this, but when it comes to funding, we are all clear that the problems that are faced will endure. We are clear that there will need to be a conversation about the Barnett formula—I am aware of the Barnett squeeze—but none of these things will be anything like plausible to solve, in a way that will be acceptable to all sections of the community, until the Executive is restored.

Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Bill

Gavin Robinson Excerpts

Committee of the whole House & 3rd reading
Wednesday 10th May 2023 Commons Chamber

[Claire Hanna]

I rise to speak to amendment 6 in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood), and to make brief comments on a couple of other amendments.

We absolutely echo and share the frustrations of others that we are doing yet another of these Bills in this place. I am struggling to think of a single such Bill—certainly in the three and a half years that we have been here—that was neither a cause nor an effect of Stormont dysfunction, which occupies rather too much time here and limits our potential. We understand the need for interim decision making, but the Bill risks going too far in bypassing Assembly scrutiny. Our amendments aim to address that by guarding against the potential use of graduated responses or the other fairly unedifying stunts that we have seen when the Assembly is being used as a political tool or weapon, and against the cynical use of such Bills to do things that damage public services in the name of reform, as a way to avoid responsibility and scrutiny.

The DUP’s new clause 1(3) instances the possibility of the Assembly functioning in some way alongside these new powers in the absence of an Executive. I want to be absolutely clear: there is, as others have said, no alternative in the here and now to devolution under the Good Friday institutions. People are ready to suspend their disbelief one more time and go back in to make that work, but a graduated response allowing these powers to be deployed to do all the grisly stuff through indirect rule, and turning it into some soap opera where everybody is hopping up and down and opposing the changes, will not be appropriate.

We cannot set up civil servants to instigate and drive controversial issues only to get them out of the way before everyone goes back in. We absolutely need reform in public services, but we need it to be done with scrutiny, not just as a mask for austerity. It needs to be done in a way that builds public trust so that people say, “Yes, you may lose service A, but you will gain service B and C”. Amendment 6 would support and evidence some of those necessary reforms by designing in a role for the Fiscal Council—a body that we have been hugely supportive of—as well as for the Human Rights Commission and the Equality Commissions as consultees. Those bodies are truly creatures of the Good Friday agreement. They are there for a reason and they should have a role in this as well, to give them a locus and so that, as I say, it is not used in a cynical way.

I want to address briefly the contradictions in the messaging we are getting about sustainable finances. There is, rightly, a serious public conversation going on about the sustainability of Stormont’s finances and structures. It is absolutely right to tackle the lack of responsibility-taking in our region, which in its century of existence has never enjoyed good governance. It is appropriate that we do that in a genuinely transformative way.

I also want to address the contradiction in what has been said about sustainable services in the light of the punishing and severe budget we face. What is more sustainable to invest in than children and young people, their health, education, future and resilience? The proposed cuts to the extended schools programme, Bright Start mental health support, pathway funds, education authority schools and youth services—alongside the loss of European social funding for Women’s Centre, which provides childcare and many other forms of family support—are the furthest thing from being sustainable. St Malachy’s youth club in the market area of my constituency does a mind-blowing array of interventions with young people, including homework support, citizenship, fitness, nutrition and lawfulness, making them good citizens and getting them ready for the world and the jobs out there. What is sustainable about its finances being cut by over a third, which will undermine all of its work with those young people? We have put off hard decisions for too long, but it is really important that this Bill is not used as a mask for the same austerity that we have had for over a decade, which does not change outcomes and limits the potential of our young people and of our economy, because they are its future.

I want to address a couple of other amendments. Amendment 1 is a vital intervention by the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), who has, crucially, been vigilant on the ticking timebomb of the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill, which has the potential not only to deepen and widen the implications of any sea border for goods and for rights, but to dramatically undermine economic sectors and actors on this island. We have absolutely no interest in doing that, so I hope that the reports that there has been change of direction on that very damaging Bill—like others, we wish to hear about those reports in the appropriate place and to have the opportunity to scrutinise them—are correct.

Finally, I support amendment 4, tabled by the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry), which is prudent and sensible in addressing the cost of division. It is time to get on. There is endemic division in our schools and communities. It is time to get past pointing at it and to start the process of reform, transformation and giving people a feasible way to live shared and integrated lives.

[Gavin Robinson]

I rise to speak to amendment 5, tabled by my party leader, my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson), our Chief Whip, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), and other colleagues. I hope that the Minister of State has considered it positively, and I look forward to hearing that the Secretary of State agrees with it. He will know that it does not any way undermine the substance of his Bill, but that it will be hugely important in assisting him in gathering information as part of his consultation exercise, as we navigate and chart our course through the myriad issues discussed this afternoon relating to dangers to public finances.

I do not think that anyone in the Chamber will disagree that I have probably said enough. The long and short of my aspiration is that the Minister of State, given all the pleasant support he has received from us to date, will look favourably on amendment 5.

[Stephen Farry]

I cannot promise to be quite as brief as my colleague, the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), but I will try. Essentially, I want to speak to those amendments that stand in my name: amendments 2, 3 and 4, which are all focused on the issue of financial sustainability. We recognise the line that the Government have put into the Bill, and I seek to encourage the Minister to take it forward in a substantive way.

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[Mr Steve Baker]

I very much appreciate the contribution everyone has made. Everybody who has spoken in today’s debate is very much seized of the issues and very well informed. They have made their points with great force.

The hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) raises the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council, so I will turn first to amendments 4 and 5 on relative need and needs-based spending. Provisions in the Bill already allow the UK Government to work with the Northern Ireland civil service on fiscal sustainability for the benefit of people across Northern Ireland, so neither amendment is strictly needed. I do not think it would be right for me to commit the Secretary of State to a particular piece of advice or consultation, but we have of course heard the debate—I listened extremely closely to it—and we are all fully committed to the sustainability of the finances, and to treating people justly and fairly.

[Gavin Robinson]

The Minister knows that the DUP tabled amendment 5 and there is a decision to be taken on whether to press it, or amendment 4 tabled by the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry), to a Division. If the Minister does not wish to commit the Secretary of State to accepting our amendment or to commissioning advice on the basis of the work of the Fiscal Council, it would be very useful if he would at least commit the Secretary of State to engaging with me and colleagues on this issue, so that when advice is commissioned and he is consulting, we can incorporate this as part of the advice he seeks.

[Mr Baker]

Yes, of course. We would be delighted to engage with the hon. Gentleman. We have already said, in relation to commissioning advice and the draft guidance, that we are very happy to engage with Members of all parties, and I am grateful to him for that intervention.

On amendment 6, on the Executive Committee, we believe—with apologies—that it would be unworkable. The decision-making provisions apply only to functions exercised in the absence of Ministers, so once Ministers have been appointed, they can no longer have any practical effect.