Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Bill
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateWednesday 10th May 2023
(3 years, 3 months ago)
Commons ChamberNorthern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Act 2023 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Committee of the whole House Amendments as at 10 May 2023 - (10 May 2023)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Act 2023 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
It is, of course, with profound regret that I return to the Dispatch Box to bring forward legislation in the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive. I am sure that right hon. and hon. Members across the House will agree that this is not a position that any of us would want to be in. The Government remain committed to supporting the restoration of the Executive in Northern Ireland as soon as possible. Functioning governance for Northern Ireland by its elected representatives is the best outcome for citizens.
Last month, we all came together to reflect on the 25th anniversary of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, and to mark the progress that Northern Ireland has made over the past quarter-century and the peace and prosperity that the agreement has brought. Of course, we also reflected on the work that remains to be done. The anniversary is an opportunity for us all to recommit to building an even brighter future for Northern Ireland. We need to see Northern Ireland’s political leaders come together and restore the devolved institutions established by the agreement, which is the surest way of delivering on the priorities of Northern Ireland’s peoples and of safeguarding our Union.
We have been very clear that to strengthen and protect the Union, we must persuade people and demonstrate that devolved government within the UK is what works best for Northern Ireland. It is in that spirit that we agreed the Windsor framework, seeking to restore the balance of the agreement and solve the issues posed by the Northern Ireland protocol. Now is the time for the parties to move forward together for what is the best possible future for Northern Ireland, and to deliver on the priorities of its people. That includes a more prosperous economy and better, more sustainable public services.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
The Minister quite correctly draws attention to the fact that the best way for Northern Ireland to have success in the future is to get devolved government up and running within the United Kingdom. Does he agree that that can best be done when all main sections of the community in Northern Ireland buy into the process of governance by which they would be governed?
Mr Baker
Yes, of course. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I agree that it must involve all sections of the community. I will be very frank with the hon. Gentleman: I recognise that the Windsor framework is a hard compromise for many sections of the Unionist community because it leaves in place some European Union law in order to have an infrastructure-free border. That is why it is also a hard compromise for Conservative Eurosceptics and for me. But I recognise that, of all the plausible futures for Northern Ireland before us, the one that is best for the people of Northern Ireland is to accept the Windsor framework, including the Stormont brake and the consent mechanism, to restore devolved government and move forward together.
As I said when I answered the final oral question earlier, Northern Ireland has an amazing opportunity. Northern Ireland Members will know better than me the incredible strength of the entrepreneurial private sector in Northern Ireland. What I see is a sector that could, with political stability, soar. With privileged access to the UK, to the EU, and to our free trade agreements under UK services law, we could achieve amazing things that will secure Northern Ireland’s prosperity, and, I believe, secure consent for Northern Ireland’s place in the Union. But I think that, for the moment, I had best leave unsaid what will happen if people continue to go without good-quality devolved government and where that will lead. If that is a topic that Members wish to pursue, perhaps we can have a different debate. I hope that is helpful to the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell).
I want to be absolutely clear that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, the Prime Minister and I all wish to preserve Northern Ireland’s place in the Union, respecting the UK’s commitments under the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. We are Unionists, although I am aware that there are some commentators for whom we can never be Unionist enough—but I am allowing myself to digress and I should get back on track.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
It may just be the way in which the Minister phrased what he said, but this is important: our ability to trade with the rest of the United Kingdom is not a privilege; it is a right. It is a right under article 6 of the Act of Union that we have the economic right to trade, barrier-free, with the rest of our own country. Yes, privileged access to the EU, but let us not talk about “privileged access” to the UK market. We are part of the United Kingdom.
Mr Baker
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and I apologise to him and to Northern Ireland Members. I had it in my head to say “privileged access to the EU”, but seeing him sitting there, I wanted to mention the UK first. It was a mistake. He is absolutely right that Northern Ireland’s right to trade unhampered into the UK is one that, as we explained at oral questions earlier, we continue to stand by and preserve, and which, under the Windsor framework, we have permanently guaranteed. I am grateful to him for clarifying that point. I will press on.
Before I provide an overview of the Bill, I should say a few words on Northern Ireland’s public finances. As the Bill’s provisions indicate, we are acutely concerned about the long-term sustainability of public finances in Northern Ireland. It was with considerable disappointment that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State found it necessary once again to step in and set a budget for Northern Ireland for 2023-24 in the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly. As the Secretary of State has made clear on multiple occasions, the extent of the budget pressures facing Northern Ireland Departments is extremely challenging. Departments are facing difficult and unavoidable decisions in the current difficult and frustrating circumstances.
The Government recognise that we need an Executive in place to take some of those difficult decisions and make the choices on budget priorities—choices that officials should not have to face without Ministers. We stand ready to work with a restored Executive on that, but in the meantime, we the Government of the UK have a responsibility to ensure that public services and the management of public funds can continue in their absence, so we will in due course take forward legislation to put the budget on a legal footing. Members of this House will have the opportunity to debate those allocations in detail at that time, if and when we come to it.
Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)
There is concern about the nature of the current civil service guidance. The Government believe that the civil service has the capacity to take decisions; civil servants do not believe that they have the vires to take decisions, particularly in relation to statutory functions. Does the Minister recognise that we are at somewhat of an impasse in the current status quo, and that there is a danger that we end up either with difficult decisions being deferred, which makes them more painful, or with a managed overspend, which is another very undesirable situation?
Mr Baker
I do recognise those aspects. We have published today revised guidance and those relatively small changes are now available on gov.uk. We will certainly be interested in the hon. Gentleman’s views, and those of all relevant parties, on that guidance. In a nutshell, I agree with him that the best way forward is to restore the institutions. I am trying not to hector, but we are all very frustrated. As I have repeatedly said, I recognise that the Democratic Unionist party and Unionism more broadly face a very difficult compromise, but I am committed, as I know the hon. Gentleman is, to saying that devolved government in Northern Ireland is the best way forward.
Simon Hoare
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. Picking up on the point raised by the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry) with regard to the role of civil servants, is the Minister able to consider seconding GB civil servants with experience of delivering dynamic change management to both the Northern Ireland civil service and the Northern Ireland Office in order to help deliver those changes? Although we hope it will for a short period of time, all hands are needed to the pump.
Mr Baker
My hon. Friend makes a very sensible suggestion. I am sure it will be considered in due course, but I hope he will not mind me saying that it would be best if that request came from a restored Executive. I know that I sound like a broken record, but that is the present issue.
I will press on. First, I express my sincere thanks to Opposition Members for continuing to ensure that Northern Ireland is served as well as possible and for not making it a political football. I appreciate that most sincerely.
The Bill does three important things. First, it continues the provisions relating to decision making for Northern Ireland civil servants, which Parliament passed in December in the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2022. Those provisions, which clarify the decisions that civil servants in the Northern Ireland Departments can take in the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers and an Executive, are due to expire on 5 June. Under this Bill, those powers will continue until an Executive are restored. This will avoid a governance gap arising if an Executive are not in place by 5 June. As before, senior officers will be required to have regard to guidance, now published, set by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the Government. That draft is out there, and we will take representations on it.
The second thing that the Bill does, and this is a little more novel, is give power to the Secretary of State to explore, with Northern Ireland Departments, options for budget sustainability, including further revenue raising, in Northern Ireland. Alongside allowing him to commission advice, the Bill will allow the Secretary of State to direct consultations to be held by Northern Ireland Departments on those matters. These powers are time-limited and apply only until an Executive are formed.
Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. He has talked about revenue raising. It is possible that a new model for funding higher education will be looked at. Given that all Governments have said that they want to ensure an expansion in student numbers in Derry, can he guarantee that that hope and desire will be protected under any new funding model?
Mr Baker
As the hon. Gentleman knows, I cannot guarantee what a restored Executive will choose to do, but I can guarantee that we will listen to him and all relevant stakeholders. Indeed, we meet the university frequently—I did so on a recent visit. We certainly wish to take the advice of the universities and, indeed, representatives from Northern Ireland as we work towards commissioning advice. Without wishing to preview what we are likely to do, of course student finance is an important matter to consider. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman.
The powers are deliberately focused on official advice and consultations on budget sustainability. Final decisions on implementation are best taken by locally elected representatives, and this Bill does not give the Secretary of State any power to direct implementation of such budget measures.
The third thing the Bill does is ensure greater political oversight of the management of public money in the absence of the Assembly, by providing for Northern Ireland Departments’ accounts and associated documents to be laid in the House of Commons. In previous absences of the Northern Ireland Assembly, the law has provided for that scrutiny to fall to Parliament, and the provision in this Bill will do that again. This provision will be active for all periods where there is no functioning Assembly, on the basis that public bodies must always be scrutinised to ensure good management of public money.
In conclusion, the measures in this Bill will ensure a continuation of the current Government’s arrangements in Northern Ireland.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Minister very much for what he has said so far. My constituents are concerned about the issue of childcare. I know that the moneys allocated by this House for childcare are for England alone, but as we approach the council elections, my constituents and others I have met on the doorsteps over the past few days have informed me that they are very concerned that Northern Ireland has not been offered childcare arrangements similar to those in England. Whether that will come through the Barnett consequentials or elsewhere, it has to happen. I am making a constructive comment, and I hope that the Minister will accept it as such. Only 60% of employed women with dependent children work full time, as opposed to 95% of men with dependent children. It is clear that the lack of affordable childcare—this is what they are telling me on the doorstep—is holding back women in Northern Ireland. What can be done through this interim arrangements Bill to enable childcare provision in Northern Ireland?
Mr Baker
I have enormous empathy for what the hon. Gentleman says. He is right to say that without childcare, women will be held back. That is why my right hon. Friend the Chancellor included so much on childcare in his Budget statement. As awkward as it is for me to once again be a stuck record, the hon. Gentleman knows that it is a devolved area. Barnett consequentials are relevant and it will be for a restored Executive to put these things in place. I am not for a moment pretending that this is a perfect or permanent solution for governance in Northern Ireland. These are interim arrangements and we very much hope, for reasons that I have begun to sketch, that we might be able to persuade Unionism to support the return of the institutions so that we can make sure that Northern Ireland gets all of the services for which he passionately and rightly argues.
The measures in the Bill will ensure the continuation of governance arrangements should there be no Executive when they expire on 5 June. They are not, and cannot be, a substitute for devolved government, as I have just said. They are by no means ideal, particularly in the context of this financial position. I want particularly to thank Northern Ireland civil servants, because they are in a very difficult position and we are extremely grateful to them for the burden that they are taking on. We continue to be grateful, and we will continue to give them what support we can.
The marking of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement has reminded us all of the importance of making the institutions in Northern Ireland work. This Government believe that an effective and functioning devolved government is crucial to showing that the Union works for the whole community in Northern Ireland. That is why the restoration of the Executive remains a Government top priority. We will continue to do everything we can to make that happen, and as we do so we will keep these arrangements under review. But for now, I commend the Bill to the House.
Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for setting out the measures in the Bill. We will not oppose it, as it is necessary to allow civil servants to keep running Departments in Northern Ireland in the absence of an Executive. It is also welcome that Northern Ireland Department accounts will be laid before Parliament, to allow some scrutiny in this period.
Of course, what we would all like to see instead of this Bill is the restoration of accountable local government. Six months ago, on Second Reading of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Bill, I said—
Peter Kyle
I am repeating what I said because I am not sure that the Secretary of State was paying as much attention as he might have done at the time. I said:
“The longer the Executive are collapsed, the hollower the 25th anniversary of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement…will be. Power sharing is the essential and hard-won outcome of that agreement. It is incumbent on the UK Government and the European Union to engage with the concerns of the Unionist community that led to its withdrawal from the institutions. Equally, any solution that emerges must be acceptable to the nationalist community to allow power sharing to resume.”—[Official Report, 29 November 2022; Vol. 723, c. 827.]
I will happily repeat that again if the Secretary of State missed it this time.
However, something has gone wrong. On paper, we have an agreement between the United Kingdom and the European Union that intends to restore power sharing, yet Stormont is still empty. The 25th anniversary was not hollow, but it is a missed opportunity that Stormont has not returned despite the Windsor framework and all the good will generated by the anniversary itself. Listening to Tony Blair at the Queen’s University conference, it was clear how persistence from a prime ministerial level was crucial to finding a solution in 1998. He described the
“seemingly endless days and nights”
of negotiation. It was a huge commitment for a new Prime Minister to make, and it was also a risk.
Tony Blair’s deep optimism about Northern Ireland’s future, then and today, shone through. He also paid tribute to the extraordinary leadership across Northern Ireland’s communities, saying that
“this agreement only happened because leaders were prepared to put their leadership in peril for the good of their people.”
The current Prime Minister needs to display a similar commitment and similar leadership—to stay the course and keep showing up, even when there are no prime ministerial visits. There is clearly a disconnect between what he believes the framework has achieved and what some members of the Unionist community say that it does. These challenges are not insurmountable, but progress can only be achieved if Westminster remains deeply committed and deeply engaged. We on the Labour Benches supported the framework in the national interest, so we would welcome an update to Parliament on its implementation and what is still needed from either side for its effects to be felt.
Ultimately, it might only be perseverance that builds back some of the trust in the UK Government that people in Northern Ireland have lost. More defined processes would be very helpful, so that we avoid a disconnect between what the Government are trying to achieve and what actually happens. In the Windsor framework, the Government committed to further legislation that would ease Unionist concerns about Northern Ireland’s place within the United Kingdom. In a recent session of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, the Secretary of State said that he was
“yet to be able to determine the exact items”
that would go into such legislation. Perhaps the Minister could elaborate on when that mystery legislation will appear, and what the consultation process for it will be.
The Labour party will always take a constructive approach when it comes to Northern Ireland. There are clauses in the Bill that give the Secretary of State power to ask for advice on options for raising public revenue. Those have led to some very useful discussions on the fiscal framework in which the Executive operate. In particular, I praise the work of the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council, whose updated estimate of the relative need for public spending has grabbed the attention of all parties. The Secretary of State also said to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee that
“there is the ability, will and understanding of the public finances necessary for us to come together with a plan for transformation.”
It does feel like movement is building to improve Northern Ireland’s financial stability. It would be good to hear what the next steps are for the Secretary of State once he receives the requested advice on policy options from civil servants.
The powers in the Bill last only as long as there is no Executive, so there will hopefully be a limited opportunity to use them. The decision-making powers we have given to civil servants will also now last until the Executive are formed, instead of there being a six-month deadline. I pay tribute—just as the Secretary of State and his Minister, the hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker), did—to all civil servants who are being asked to go far beyond what should be expected of them. The head of the civil service, Jayne Brady, gave evidence last week to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. She highlighted some of the challenges that the civil service is facing on how to make decisions within the budget that the Secretary of State now has to set out. In her words, even with the Bill,
“there will be decisions that we will not be able to make because they will not be aligned with the legal construct we are operating in.”
In summing up, the Minister should address that possible gap and what decisions might fall into it.
One of the themes from meetings that I recently had with Northern Ireland groups is that it is difficult to understand where responsibility ultimately lies. That really worries me—as a Parliament, it should worry all of us. The Secretary of State has been clear that we are not moving into direct rule; what we have instead is limited interventions from Westminster that keep public services functioning with limited scrutiny. The situation cannot continue forever. I hope that we can build on the momentum of the 25th anniversary and the recognition of how special the peace process was and continues to be, and I hope that we see power sharing restored soon.
Mr Baker
With the leave of the House, I rise to close the debate, and I thank all those who have participated in it. Once again, we have seen that on the main substance of the Bill there is wide agreement. There is agreement that it is necessary but regrettable, as we continue to seek to avoid the governance gap.
I will now seek to respond to as many points as I can. The shadow Secretary of State raised the issue of some difficult decisions being too much for officials. We recognise that the Bill is an interim arrangement. It clarifies the powers that civil servants need in order to maintain public services in the absence of an Executive. We recognise that civil servants will be uncomfortable taking some of the difficult decisions that are needed. Indeed, it is possible that they will feel unable to take them, but that, of course, is why we need the Executive back. I am aware that we are sounding like a stuck record, but getting the Executive back is what we are seeking to do.
Before I go any further, I will just say to the hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) that I know the Prime Minister would want me to say that he is fully committed to the return of devolution, but that is a point to which I shall return later.
My hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), who chairs the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, asked about advice. He raised a great point and I am happy to clarify that it is our intention that the options developed for budget sustainability will be shared with the new Executive, and we hope that the new Executive will act swiftly to implement such measures. Further to various points that he made in relation to direct rule, I am absolutely clear that the Bill does not give us any powers to implement measures. I hope that is helpful to my hon. Friend—it is just the powers of the Secretary of State to direct that there should be advice and consultations, which would fall away.
The hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson), who speaks for the SNP, made a speech to which I listened very carefully. I am happy to say that, on this occasion, I did not spot any areas where I disagreed with him, but I shall have to revisit Hansard. I am grateful to him for the manner in which he has approached this debate, and I can assure him that it made a pleasant change.
A number of Members have talked about the budget. I know that if the moment comes that we are forced to bring forward a budget Bill, we will no doubt touch on all of the issues in detail, but I hope the House will forgive me if I do not go into any further detail on that this afternoon. What I will say is that we will have to bring forward a Bill if there is not an Executive, which I and the Secretary of State will regret should that be necessary.
On the issue of funding, the Government have, for many years, recognised the unique challenges that Northern Ireland faces. We have provided about £7 billion in additional funding to Northern Ireland since 2014, on top of the Barnett-based block grant and the Northern Ireland budget. Per person, that is around 20% higher than the equivalent UK Government spending in the rest of the UK. I am well aware of the Fiscal Council’s report, which suggests that, on a needs basis, it should be even higher, but I have to say that 20% extra would go a long way in Wycombe—the streets are not all paved with gold there.
Mr Baker
I will, if the hon. Gentleman will let me finish my point.
We do need the Executive back, and not because we believe all the problems will go away—far from it—but because we need the problems to be addressed by Northern Ireland Executive Ministers. I am very clear that the road ahead will be long and hard for those Ministers.
Gavin Robinson
Does the Minister accept that, within the next two years, the upward trajectory for the budget in England is 6%, but the trajectory in Northern Ireland is 3.6%? Per household, that equates to £2,000 less in Northern Ireland than for his constituents in Wycombe.
Mr Baker
I am confident that the hon. Gentleman has done his homework, but I hope he will forgive me for saying that I will not confirm the figures when I do not have them immediately in front of me in the terms that he has put them. As I mentioned in oral questions earlier today, for all of us in this House, and indeed in all the devolved institutions, we do need to engage with the fiscal projections of the Office for Budget Responsibility. There is no doubt in my mind that, for the rest of our political careers and far beyond, there will be a problem with meeting the many demands of age-related spending. All of us will need to rise to that challenge, as it will need, in particular, healthcare reform. The Bengoa report is long since overdue in implementation. I also talked earlier about healthcare.
A total of £600,000 a day is spent maintaining a divided education system. It cannot be right just on a cost basis, never mind all of the social divisions that it leads to. That conversation needs to be had. I have made that position clear. The Government’s position is very clear: we are in favour of integrated education. I know that there will be a spectrum of views on this, but when it comes to funding, we are all clear that the problems that are faced will endure. We are clear that there will need to be a conversation about the Barnett formula—I am aware of the Barnett squeeze—but none of these things will be anything like plausible to solve, in a way that will be acceptable to all sections of the community, until the Executive is restored.
Sammy Wilson
I ask the Minister, whose party talks all the time in this House about choice in education, why he wishes to shoehorn education in Northern Ireland into one particular system. Does he not accept that, in Northern Ireland, there are those who choose to have church education, those who choose to have grammar school education, and those who want to have integrated schools? Does he not accept that the same choice that he would have for his constituents should be available to people in Northern Ireland?
Mr Baker
I absolutely do. Since the right hon. Gentleman mentions my constituents, I am happy to tell him that we are a grammar system in Wycombe and that the Highcrest Academy has built what it calls an “all ability” school there, which I regard as a comprehensive. Strangely enough, I helped it against the forces of the hard left, which were trying to avoid building an all ability school under the grammar system, and I rather approve of its ability to bring back choice for parents.
We have a co-operative school in my constituency, which I support, and a Catholic school—by the way, Muslim parents, and there are many in Wycombe, choose freely to send their children to the Catholic school. I am all in favour of school choice for my constituents and for the right hon. Gentleman’s constituents, but the question is at what cost. That question is one that he and his colleague Members of the Legislative Assembly need to answer in a re-formed Executive.
However, when I go over to Northern Ireland as a Minister and meet young people who say to me, “I was 16 before I met my first Catholic”, or “I was 18 before I met my first Unionist”, there is so much wrong with that. I find myself amazed that that is even a conversation in the 21st century. Yes to choice, but at what cost?
Stephen Farry
I welcome what the Minister says in relation to integrated schools, but I have two points for him. First, I want to reinforce that there is significant demand for integrated schools right across the community in Northern Ireland. Secondly, and most relevant to this debate, does he recognise that moving from a split system to more of a shared, integrated system involves some degree of investment? The problem is that the Department of Education cannot do that at present, in a context of declining budgets where it is trying to protect what it has.
Mr Baker
The hon. Gentleman’s point is very well made; he knows that I hear it now and have heard it in the past.
We are clear that finances in Northern Ireland are not sustainable, but we are also clear that it is for an Executive to act on it. In the absence of an Executive, the Government through this Bill will ensure that time is not lost in starting to think about and work on that. We will commission advice from the Northern Ireland civil service on the options for budget sustainability in Northern Ireland, and we are happy to engage with any Member of the House in more detail about what we commission.
I heard what the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) said, and I am particularly interested in engaging with him and the universities. I also recognise the point he makes about places in Derry. He is right that Northern Ireland will never be a laissez-faire paradise, and it will be necessary for policy to embrace the point he makes about rebalancing towards Derry/Londonderry.
We are happy to engage with hon. Members, although I do not wish to pre-empt any particular piece of advice we might commission. We are absolutely clear that it is for locally accountable leadership to take these difficult decisions, but we are clear that those decisions will endure.
Questions were asked about future strategy, but the Government are clear about our strategy for Northern Ireland: devolution, moving forward with the Windsor framework and making the most of our new, constructive relationship with the EU and Ireland to improve that framework in a collaborative way when problems arise, as they inevitably will. Since this point came up earlier, we will then also work towards the review of the trade and co-operation agreement and try to improve our overall position.
While we are doing that—because, as has been said, we can do more than one thing at once—we will do everything we can to cheerlead for Northern Ireland. It is an amazing place, loved by people all over the world and full of talented people with an incredible capacity for innovation and development. They deserve investment, and I for one want to see that they get it.
Finally, I join in the lament about the gap that has opened up between the Government and Unionists. Once again, this has been a painful debate for me to listen to. Sometimes hon. Friends in the DUP have directed their remarks at me, but I would say to them that I do not wish to be hard on them. I must say to my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) that I do not regret having given voice to people in Fermanagh who said, “Get on with it.”. That is what people want in Northern Ireland. There was no chanting—it was just a cry of “Get on with it”, and I am not sorry that I gave voice to that sentiment.
Hon. Members will have noticed that I have tried to be as emollient as possible in recent days—I really have. I have put on record that this is a difficult compromise for me too. I know that it is an even more difficult compromise for them to go back into the Executive with the Windsor framework, but I just say again that we have to choose from available futures.
Everybody here knows that it is not enough just to say what you want; you have to know how you will get it. I am clear, as we go forward with the Bill, that we do not want to be here again with Bills of this nature. We want to celebrate a return of devolved government, and yes, by all means, continue a conversation about the detail of the Windsor framework and what we can do to support the Union and Unionism. But, my goodness, I want us to get to the point, beyond this Bill, where we are celebrating the return of devolved government to solve the real problems that we face, and celebrating a Northern Ireland that has a much better and brighter future.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed to a Committee of the whole House (Order, this day).
Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Bill
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateWednesday 10th May 2023
(3 years, 3 months ago)
Commons ChamberNorthern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Act 2023 Read Hansard Text Amendment Paper: Committee of the whole House Amendments as at 10 May 2023 - (10 May 2023)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Act 2023 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Tonia Antoniazzi
I will keep my comments brief as I do not want to repeat what was said on Second Reading. Labour does not oppose the Bill as it is a necessary step to ensuring that governance in Northern Ireland can continue in the absence of a functioning Executive. The amendments show a clear indication from the Northern Ireland parties that improving Northern Ireland’s financial stability is a priority. Indeed, the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council’s recent work was highlighted a number of times. The Secretary of State mentioned during Northern Ireland questions that he had been in conversation with the Fiscal Council. It would be great to hear his assessment of its report and how he intends to proceed with that information.
Continued engagement with the Northern Ireland parties, as well as with bodies such as the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council, is paramount to best representing the people of Northern Ireland. I hope that such engagement from the Secretary of State and the Minister will continue.
Mr Steve Baker
I very much appreciate the contribution everyone has made. Everybody who has spoken in today’s debate is very much seized of the issues and very well informed. They have made their points with great force.
The hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) raises the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council, so I will turn first to amendments 4 and 5 on relative need and needs-based spending. Provisions in the Bill already allow the UK Government to work with the Northern Ireland civil service on fiscal sustainability for the benefit of people across Northern Ireland, so neither amendment is strictly needed. I do not think it would be right for me to commit the Secretary of State to a particular piece of advice or consultation, but we have of course heard the debate—I listened extremely closely to it—and we are all fully committed to the sustainability of the finances, and to treating people justly and fairly.
Gavin Robinson
The Minister knows that the DUP tabled amendment 5 and there is a decision to be taken on whether to press it, or amendment 4 tabled by the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry), to a Division. If the Minister does not wish to commit the Secretary of State to accepting our amendment or to commissioning advice on the basis of the work of the Fiscal Council, it would be very useful if he would at least commit the Secretary of State to engaging with me and colleagues on this issue, so that when advice is commissioned and he is consulting, we can incorporate this as part of the advice he seeks.
Mr Baker
Yes, of course. We would be delighted to engage with the hon. Gentleman. We have already said, in relation to commissioning advice and the draft guidance, that we are very happy to engage with Members of all parties, and I am grateful to him for that intervention.
On amendment 6, on the Executive Committee, we believe—with apologies—that it would be unworkable. The decision-making provisions apply only to functions exercised in the absence of Ministers, so once Ministers have been appointed, they can no longer have any practical effect.
Claire Hanna
Is the Minister aware—I cannot remember which year it was, because there have been so many crises —of the in-out Ministers stunt? I think it was conducted in mid to late 2015. Ministers resigned on a rotating basis over a period of months, so Ministers were in place but there was not a functioning Executive. It is that kind of carry on we are trying to guard against.
Mr Baker
Yes, and I confess that my mind boggles that such a thing should have happened. Equally, I recognise that, standing here right now, I am not aware of the full circumstances. I certainly hear what the hon. Lady says, but even so I hope she will understand that right now I cannot accept the amendment.
Turning to amendments 7, 8 and 9 on specific consultees, we believe that this would be unnecessarily restrictive. Requiring the Secretary of State to direct the Department to consult the specified bodies listed in the amendment is not necessary. The consultee lists for the Northern Ireland Departments are well known and recognised, so we do not wish to pick out the three bodies over any others because it would beg the question, why not include them all? In particular, picking up on the Fiscal Council, the Secretary of State has already confirmed, I think through me, that he is engaged with the Fiscal Council. He is happy to commit to the Committee that he will ensure that it, and all the bodies listed in the amendment, will be consulted on budget sustainability. We therefore ask the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) not to press the amendment to a Division.
On amendment 11, on scrutiny and the scrutiny of Ministers, the approach in the Bill to the power of the Northern Ireland Assembly to call for witnesses and documents is consistent with previous circumstances where the UK Government have taken certain powers to give direction to Northern Ireland Departments. If UK Government Ministers give Northern Ireland Departments a direction, it is right and proper that the line of accountability comes here to Parliament, where UK Government Ministers are accountable. It is not appropriate for the Northern Ireland Assembly to be able to hold UK Government Ministers to account in that way.
On amendment 2, on communal divisions, the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry) makes his points extremely well. He knows—I think I have illustrated it—that I feel his pain on this issue, but we already have, for the purpose of pursuing fiscal sustainability, the ability to take advice and pursue consultations. I certainly look forward to further conversations with him and to taking his advice on where we should look in relation to communal divisions. I will be glad to meet him to consider that issue further. On his amendment 3, on transformation, the Secretary of State would have the powers under the Bill to commission advice and go for consultations to achieve budget sustainability through transformation. I hope that the hon. Member will accept that the amendment is not strictly necessary, but once again, I hear him and he makes his point very well and with great force.
On the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill, I hope the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) will accept that it is not the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Office to take it through the House, but I listened carefully to what she said about its impact on Northern Ireland. I am conscious that her amendment was not selected, so I hope that she will not mind if I do not go any further.
Stella Creasy
The Bill explicitly gives the Minister, in the absence of Stormont, the powers to use the devolved competences. Is he saying that he has not looked into those powers at all, or is he not prepared to talk about how he is exercising them?
Mr Baker
As on the face of the Bill, we will be able to seek advice from officials in the Northern Ireland Departments and require consultations, but we will have no powers to implement any of the measures on which we have taken advice. We are clear that devolution is the best way to govern Northern Ireland, as we have said many times.
With that, I am grateful to everyone who has participated in the Committee.
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I believe that the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) wishes to withdraw her amendment.
Mr Steve Baker
I beg to move, That Bill be now read the Third time.
It is not an especially happy occasion. As the House has fleshed out, we see before us the many difficult decisions that lie ahead. But it is a necessary occasion, as we have all agreed.
I want to place on record my thanks to everyone involved in the Bill’s passage through the House for their support of its expedited passage. I particularly thank the Front Benchers of all parties for their collaborative and constructive engagement on the legislation, recognising the importance of getting it on the statute books to avoid a governance gap from 5 June. I place on record my appreciation to the House authorities, particularly the Clerks who, as ever, have guided us in an expert fashion. I thank the excellent Diggory Bailey in the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel for the expert fashion in which he and colleagues drafted the Bill. I thank my colleagues and officials in the Government Whips office for helping us progress in a smooth fashion, and in particular on this occasion for not putting me under undue time pressure. I am most grateful to them, as always.
I conclude by repeating what I said at Second Reading. People in Northern Ireland rightfully expect to see these decisions taken in Stormont not Westminster, and I agree with them. I think the House does, too.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I call the shadow Secretary of State.
Mr Baker
For such a matter to come up so late in the debate is just one of those things, but I think that I have a good track record on renewing the relationship with Ireland and with the European Union. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that we have agency, and I am determined, as is the Secretary of State, to work with everyone as expeditiously as possible to make a success of restoring the Executive.
Peter Kyle
On numerous occasions today the Minister has urged the Northern Ireland parties to get back in. It is my job to hold his feet to the fire as well, and to point out that he, as a UK Government Minister, has skin in the game on this one. It was, of course, some of the actions of the UK Government that led to some of the challenges that are faced in Northern Ireland, which proves that what happens here in Westminster—the decisions taken in Downing Street and in Whitehall—has a profound impact over there. So rather than always looking to those parties to sort out the problems that have sometimes been created through decisions taken over there, the Minister must be a very active participant in that process.
Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Bill
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateThursday 18th May 2023
(3 years, 2 months ago)
Lords ChamberNorthern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Act 2023 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Amendment Paper: Committee of the whole House Amendments as at 10 May 2023 - (10 May 2023)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Act 2023 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)
My Lords, before I turn to the Bill, I pay tribute to Peter Brooke, Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland from 1989 to 1992, who sadly passed away this week. I had the immense privilege of being Peter’s special adviser in the months before the 1992 general election and supported him before that as the Northern Ireland desk officer in the Conservative Research Department. He was, as has been pointed out, a man of profound personal integrity, learned, witty and unfailingly polite and courteous. Peter served as Secretary of State while the Troubles were still raging and—we should never forget—around 100 people a year were losing their lives as a result of the security situation. He cared deeply about Northern Ireland and, with infinite patience and determination, sought a better, more peaceful and stable future for all its people. His huge role in the origins of what became the peace process should never be underestimated. I am sure that I speak for everyone in the House in sending our sincere condolences to his widow Lindsay and the Brooke family at this difficult time.
I turn now to the Bill itself. It is, of course, with profound regret that I return once again to this Dispatch Box to bring forward legislation in the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive. I am certain that noble Lords across the House will agree that this is not a position in which any of us would wish to find ourselves. In line with our steadfast commitment to the 1998 Belfast agreement, His Majesty’s Government remain committed to supporting the restoration of the Executive in Northern Ireland as soon as possible. In our view, a strong devolved Government, with elected representatives from across the community working together, is the surest foundation for the governance of Northern Ireland within our United Kingdom and the best outcome for all its people.
Last month, many of us came together, including Members of your Lordships’ House—including the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, on the Bench opposite—to reflect on the 25th anniversary of the Belfast agreement. We marked the progress that Northern Ireland has made over the past quarter of a century and the relative peace and prosperity that the agreement has brought. This anniversary remains an opportunity for all of us to recommit to building an even brighter future for Northern Ireland. Now is the time to decide how we want to move forward together, to create a better future for and deliver on the priorities of the people of Northern Ireland. That includes a more prosperous economy and better, more sustainable public finances and services.
On that note, and before I provide an overview of the Bill, I will say a few words on Northern Ireland’s public finances. As the provisions of the Bill will indicate, we are acutely concerned about the long-term stability of public finances in Northern Ireland. It was with considerable disappointment that, in the absence of devolved government, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland found it necessary, once again, to intervene and set a budget for 2023-24. I set out that budget in a Written Statement to your Lordships’ House on 27 April. As he has made clear on multiple occasions, the extent of the budget pressures facing Northern Ireland departments is, to put it mildly, extremely challenging. Departments are facing difficult decisions in the current circumstances. The Government recognise that, and it is one of the overriding reasons why we need an Executive in place to take some of these decisions and make choices on budget priorities.
As the UK Government, we stand ready to work with a restored Executive on these issues but, in the meantime, we have a responsibility to ensure that public services and management of public funds can continue. We will, in due course, introduce legislation that will put that budget on to a legal footing, if the Executive are not restored to do so. Members of your Lordships’ House will have the opportunity to debate in more detail those allocations if and when we have to introduce that legislation.
Today, though, I will focus on the Bill and its provisions. The Bill is of course a short one and I will seek to be brief in recognition of that. I once again express my sincere thanks to the Benches opposite for their continued co-operation as the Government seek to bring the Bill forward at the requisite pace. I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, for the constructive manner in which they and others intend to approach this legislation.
The Bill does three important things. First, it continues the provisions relating to decision-making for Northern Ireland civil servants which Parliament passed last December through the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2022. These provisions, which clarified the decisions that civil servants in Northern Ireland departments can take in the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers and an Executive, are due to expire on 5 June. Through the Bill, these powers will continue until the Executive are reformed. That will avoid a governance gap arising if an Executive are not in place by 5 June. As before, senior officers will be required to have regard to guidance issued by the Secretary of State; the Government published an updated draft of that guidance on 10 May. We would, of course, welcome any representations that noble Lords or others may have on that guidance before we finalise it.
The second main provision of the Bill—and the more novel provision in this legislation compared with previous Bills—is to provide for new powers for the Secretary of State to explore, with Northern Ireland departments, options for budget sustainability including further revenue raising in Northern Ireland. Alongside commissioning advice, the Bill will allow the Secretary of State to direct consultations to be held by Northern Ireland departments on those matters. These powers are, again, time limited and will apply only until an Executive are formed. These measures are deliberately focused on official advice and consultations on budget sustainability. Final decisions on any implementation are best taken by locally elected representatives; the Bill does not give the Secretary of State any power to direct implementation of any such measures.
Finally, the third thing that the Bill does is to ensure greater political oversight of the management of public money in the absence of the Northern Ireland Assembly. The Bill does that by providing for Northern Ireland department accounts and associated documents to be laid in the House of Commons, in the absence of the Assembly. In previous absences of the Northern Ireland Assembly, the law has provided for that scrutiny to fall to Parliament, and the provision in the Bill will do that again. This provision will be active only for this and any future periods where there is no functioning Assembly, on the basis that public bodies must always be scrutinised for their good management of public money.
In conclusion, the measures in the Bill will ensure a continuation of the current governance arrangements in Northern Ireland, should there be no Executive when they expire next month. However, these measures are not, and cannot be, a substitute for devolved government in Northern Ireland. We acknowledge that the current arrangements are by no means desirable—to put it mildly—particularly in the context of Northern Ireland’s difficult financial position. I also recognise that the Bill is not a long-term solution to the wider issues with which Northern Ireland is grappling: they are matters for a newly reconstituted Executive and Assembly to address. The marking of the 25th anniversary of the Belfast agreement has reminded us all of the importance of making the institutions in Northern Ireland work, and work for the entire community. His Majesty’s Government believes that having an effective and functioning devolved Government is crucial to showing that the union itself works for the whole community in Northern Ireland. That is why the restoration of the Executive remains our top government priority in Northern Ireland. We will continue to do everything that we can to make that happen in as short a timeframe as possible and, as we do that, we will keep these arrangements under review. For now, I commend the Bill to the House.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who participated in this debate, which was relatively short by our recent standards. I thank noble Lords for their kind words about my late colleague, Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, and for their general support for this Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Murphy, referred to the title of the Bill including “Interim Arrangements”. When we were discussing this, I was very keen to avoid calling it “temporary arrangements”, given that everything in Northern Ireland that has had “temporary” attached it over many years has assumed an air of permanence.
I am also grateful to the noble Lord Murphy of Torfaen for reminding the House of Section 1 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, which makes clear that Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom and will never cease to be so without the consent of most of its people. Speaking for this Government, I would not want the current constitutional position to change. Regarding his point about the restoration of the institutions, and echoing other noble Lords across the House, including the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, I assure all noble Lords that, irrespective of the calendar, our focus will remain very firmly on restoring those institutions which, as I said at the outset, are in the best interests of the union and of the people of Northern Ireland.
I politely disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, who argued for the strengthening of local government and effectively the abolition of Stormont, which would be a fundamental change to the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. That is not a position that the Government can support. We remain firmly committed to the agreement and to the institutions across all three strands that the agreement establishes. Our priority is to make the agreement and the institutions work for the good of the people of Northern Ireland.
Unsurprisingly, a number of noble Lords focused on the current budget situation in Northern Ireland. As I said in my opening speech, if there is no restored Executive, it will be our intention to bring forward a Bill at the appropriate time to put the current budget allocations on to a legal footing. We will have a further opportunity to discuss the budget at that stage. However, picking up on one or two points, we recognise that the current situation is unsustainable and that Northern Ireland departments, in the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers, will have to face very difficult decisions to live within their budget, but these are unavoidable.
I heard my noble friend Lord Rogan and the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, refer to the “punishment budget”, as some people have described it—but it is not a description that I accept for one second. The budget reflects the reality of the fiscal situation in which Northern Ireland currently finds itself.
It is for that reason that, over many years, the Government have recognised the unique challenges that Northern Ireland faces. I recall that the spending review in 2021 was the most generous since the restoration of the devolved Government in 1998-99. It gave Northern Ireland the possibility of multiyear budgets, as opposed to the single-year budgets that have bedevilled us over a number of recent years. Sadly that proved not to be possible.
In addition, we have seen billions of pounds of extra spending through the Stormont House agreement, the fresh start agreement, the confidence and supply agreement, and New Decade, New Approach. It is difficult to sustain the argument that Northern Ireland has been systematically underfunded by the Government. As the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, reminded us, public spending per head in Northern Ireland is still running at about 20% higher than the United Kingdom average.
However, I recognise that there is a discussion about the funding formula, which the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, raised in some detail. To echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, that discussion would be far better taking place between the United Kingdom Government and a restored Northern Ireland Executive. In the spirit of openness, I am of course more than happy to have a conversation with the noble Lord about these matters. Likewise, I am happy to respond positively to the invitation from my noble friend Lord Rogan to meet the pharmacists in Northern Ireland.
A number of noble Lords again raised issues with the Windsor Framework. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, feel very strongly about this. I gently remind noble Lords that the House of Commons approved the Windsor Framework by 513 votes to 29, and your Lordships by 227 votes to 14. It clearly represents the settled will of Parliament that the framework be carried forward and implemented. In our view, it delivers stability for the people of Northern Ireland, protects Northern Ireland’s place in the union and restores the balance of the Belfast agreement.
I agree with my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Bew, who made a powerful case in saying that the framework increases Northern Ireland’s agency. He referred to the role of the Stormont brake; it gives the Assembly a very powerful role in determining future EU legislation and regulations. For that brake to be effective and to be operated, we need a functioning Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly. I referred also to the institutional reforms raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey.
The issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, reflected a number of amendments that were put forward in the other place in the name of her sister party, the Alliance Party of Northern Ireland. She raises important points, such as the costs of division in Northern Ireland, which are substantial and need to be addressed, and the transformation funds. I will write to the noble Baroness in more detail, but my initial reaction is that it is wrong to commit the Secretary of State to exploring any particular options at this stage. The Bill gives my right honourable friend a degree of discretion around this and it would probably not be right, as the Alliance Party was trying to do in the House of Commons, to put some of these things into legislation. But I am very happy to discuss these issues further and to write to the noble Baroness.
The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, also referred to the position of civil servants under the legislation, as did the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen. I agree that it puts them in a very difficult situation, and these concerns have been voiced within Northern Ireland itself. We are asking a lot of civil servants under this legislation. In our view, this approach is unfortunately necessary. It strikes the right balance between ensuring that governance can continue while giving parties in Northern Ireland the time and space to form an Executive. I entirely agree that this is not a long-term fix; it cannot be a long-term fix or a substitute for the proper re-establishment of a functioning devolved Government in Northern Ireland, in line with the Belfast agreement. On that note, I beg to move.
Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Bill
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debateTuesday 23rd May 2023
(3 years, 2 months ago)
Lords ChamberNorthern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Act 2023 Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Amendment Paper: HL Bill 137-I Marshalled list for Committee - (19 May 2023)
This text is a record of ministerial contributions to a debate held as part of the Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Act 2023 passage through Parliament.
In 1993, the House of Lords Pepper vs. Hart decision provided that statements made by Government Ministers may be taken as illustrative of legislative intent as to the interpretation of law.
This extract highlights statements made by Government Ministers along with contextual remarks by other members. The full debate can be read here
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Lab)
My Lords, here we are. I have been either asking or answering questions on the Barnett formula for something like 32 years. It started off as a formula, and then you add a floor, and now you have a Barnett squeeze. Some of your Lordships may remember that Lord Joel Barnett, himself, who invented this, towards the end of his life completely denounced it and said that it was not suitable any more. Indeed, it probably is not. We lived with it for the last 20 or 30 years because there was no real alternative, but the world has changed since then, certainly in terms of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, put a convincing case for a very serious look at the situation at the moment. I can tell him and Members of your Lordships’ House that, when I was the Secretary of State for Wales, I did not persuade my colleagues in the Treasury that there was a need for a change. I tried, but when you are a territorial Secretary of State, you are always battling with the Treasury, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. You are in the same team. Sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose. But the key to the success of what happened in Wales, with the Holtham commission, was that it was in fact conceived by the Assembly, set up by the Government of Wales, and had cross-party support when the commission reported. That meant that there was a seriousness about that report which impressed the Treasury. It was convinced, after all this discussion and all these commissions, that things had to change, but I could not do it on my own. It had to be done with the Assembly, the Welsh Government and Holtham and his commission, which spread over a couple of years. That is how it was achieved.
The same thing is going to happen in Northern Ireland. There has to be a concerted effort by all political parties in Northern Ireland to be able to persuade the Government that there is a serious case for equating Wales and Northern Ireland—I leave Scotland out at the moment, as that is an even more complicated case. But that is only reasonably sure of success if it is not simply left to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. There has to be this pressure internally, from those who have been elected and thus are there in that Assembly, elected by the people of Northern Ireland to take issues like this up.
I know there is a meeting in the next week or two with the head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service. She has quite rightly asked political parties for some guidance as to what to do. A budget is not simply adding up and taking away figures; a budget is about priorities of government. What do you put first? What do you put last? Where do you put this money and that money? You do that on the basis of proper consultation, not only with Members of the Assembly but with all the political parties. That can best be done only in the context of a democratic Assembly and government.
There is no question that there is some merit in discussing these issues in your Lordships’ House, but we are not here to run Northern Ireland; we have not been elected to do that—we have not been elected to do anything but certainly not to do that. When that meeting is held in the next week or two, I hope that the parties in Northern Ireland will impress upon the head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service the importance of trying to work out what those priorities would be and how to do it. Rather her than me—it is a terribly difficult thing to do if you are not an elected politician. The decisions are so tough and so harsh, and in some ways so impossible, that they can be made only by people who are answerable in a democracy to the electorate. That is not the case at the moment.
Yes, there is a very strong case for looking at change, and a strong case for asking officials to do what they did in Wales, but that can best be achieved only if the Assembly and the Executive are both restored.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Caine) (Con)
My Lords, before replying to the debate that we have just had, I would like to make a very brief statement on legislative consent. Clearly, the reason we are here is that there is neither a functioning Executive nor a functioning Assembly in Northern Ireland. It has therefore not been possible to seek a legislative consent Motion.
I thank the Committee for the constructive debate that we have had this afternoon. I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken to the amendment. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Morrow and Lord McCrea, for their time this morning, coming in to discuss this issue with me in the Northern Ireland Office.
Amendment 1, tabled in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Morrow and Lord Dodds, provides an example of the advice or information that the Secretary of State could request from the Northern Ireland Civil Service under Clause 2 of the Bill. Specifically, the amendment references the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council’s 2023 report—referred to by a number of noble Lords this afternoon—entitled Updated Estimate of the Relative Need for Public Spending in Northern Ireland. I join noble Lords in thanking the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council for its work, and have noted its report on the updated estimate of the relative need for public spending in Northern Ireland. The noble Baroness, the former First Minister of Northern Ireland, was right to refer to His Majesty’s Government’s role in the establishment of the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council, following both the fresh start agreement in 2015 and New Decade, New Approach in 2020. The Secretary of State, my right honourable friend Chris Heaton-Harris, met the chair of the council, Robert Chote, two weeks ago to go through the report’s findings. I assure the Committee that we will have further such meetings with him.
As noble Lords will be aware, there are clearly many different ways to assess need, as the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council itself acknowledges in its report. However, the report indicates that funding is currently broadly in line with relative need, through a combination of the Barnett-based block grant, locally generated revenue and additional UK Government funding packages. In that context, I refer noble Lords to the penultimate bullet point on page 3 of the report and the penultimate paragraph on page 21 of the report.
I should add that the report also makes clear that locally accountable leadership—to echo the comments of a number of noble Lords this afternoon—is urgently required to ensure that Northern Ireland has a stable and flourishing economy.
For many years, the Government have recognised the unique challenges that Northern Ireland faces. The argument that it has been systematically underfunded by the Government simply does not hold water, in my view. In the 2021 spending review, the Government announced that the block grant for Northern Ireland would be £15 billion per year, on average, over the next three years, representing the largest settlement since the restoration of devolution in 1998-99. We have provided around £7 billion in additional funding to Northern Ireland since 2014, on top of the Barnett-based block grant. As a number of noble Lords pointed out, the Northern Ireland budget per person is around 20% higher than the equivalent UK government spending in other parts of the United Kingdom, and it is set to rise to around 25% by 2024-25.
In 2013, shortly before we brought the G8 summit to Northern Ireland, we made available £300 million in additional borrowing power and funding top-ups through the building a prosperous and united community package. We made available almost £2 billion in additional spending power for Northern Ireland as a result of the Stormont House agreement in 2014, a further £500 million through the fresh start agreement in 2015, and £2.5 billion of financial support and flexibility through the confidence and supply agreement in 2017.
In more recent years, we have invested over £3.5 billion in Northern Ireland through the £400 million new deal for Northern Ireland, £617 million for four city and growth deals covering all of Northern Ireland, £730 million through PEACE PLUS, and £2 billion in funding and a Barnett investment guarantee in the New Decade, New Approach financial package, following the restoration of the Executive in January 2020. Noble Lords will recall that the priorities committed to by the Northern Ireland Executive within New Decade, New Approach specifically included £245 million earmarked for the transformation of the health service and wider public sector. The UK Government are also investing over £250 million in Northern Ireland through the levelling up fund, the UK shared prosperity fund and the community ownership fund.
Despite these significant levels of investment from the UK Government, over and above the Barnett-based block grant, the Northern Ireland Executive have consistently been unable to allocate this funding to deliver the much-needed transformation of public services. In that context, I acknowledge the comments made by the noble Baroness, the former First Minister, regarding the period from 2017 to 2020. Consequently, the £200 million health transformation funding provided through the confidence and supply agreement, and the £245 million of funding for public service transformation allocated through New Decade, New Approach, have primarily been used for short-term funding pressures, not to deliver genuine reform.
I gently echo the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, at Second Reading—and to some extent repeated this afternoon—when making comparisons with Wales on this issue. It is important to underline that that arrangement was negotiated between the Welsh Government, the Welsh Assembly and the Treasury. As the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, reminded us, the Holtham commission was established in 2008 and negotiations took place over the next seven years. That seven-year period is crucial to today’s debate because it underlines that this is not an issue that could be solved overnight, even with the best will in the world.
As was pointed out by a number of noble Lords, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, and the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, it would be far more powerful if the case made by noble Lords on the Benches behind me were made from a functioning Stormont. It will not surprise anyone in this Committee to hear me say that this is an issue best addressed in the context of a restored Executive and Assembly in Northern Ireland, in discussions with the Treasury. I agree entirely with the noble Baroness and the noble Lord on those points.
More broadly, in the absence of an Executive the UK Government will be able to commission advice from the Northern Ireland Civil Service—I mentioned this at the outset—on how current funding can be used more efficiently to the benefit of the people of Northern Ireland. However, it would not be right for me to commit the Secretary of State to exploring certain defined options—that would be the effect of this amendment—in advance of commissioning Northern Ireland departments for advice on options for budget sustainability.
The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, asked about parliamentary oversight. She and other noble Lords will be aware that, in the continuing absence of an Executive, we will need to bring forward a budget Bill, which will be debated in your Lordships’ House.
I am of course willing to continue to engage with noble Lords, particularly those who brought this amendment —as I referred to earlier, I did so this morning—on these important issues. In that spirit, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.