European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Emma Reynolds Excerpts

Wednesday 13th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Keir Starmer]

I will press on, make my case and take some further interventions later on.

I was saying that the proposal in Lords amendments 1 and 2 that the Government should seek to negotiate a customs union with the EU as part of the future arrangements is a sensible one for many reasons. The first is the economy. Over a number of decades, our manufacturing model has adapted to the arrangements that we currently have with the EU, including the customs union. Thus, typically, we see, across the UK, thousands of manufacturing businesses that operate on the basis of a vital supply chain in goods and parts from across the EU. The car industry is an obvious example, but not the only one.

Such businesses operate on the basis of a just-in-time approach. Whereas years ago there were stockpiles of parts and so on, these days there is a just-in-time approach. Parts come in and are assembled, and the finished product then goes quickly and seamlessly across the UK and/or out to the EU. That is the manufacturing model that this country has operated for many years, and MPs across the House know that that is what goes on in their constituencies.

[Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)]

The outgoing president of the CBI said today that manufacturing sectors, particularly the car industry, would be severely damaged if the UK did not stay in a customs union with the EU. Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that those comments are very concerning?

[Keir Starmer]

One of the risks for Members taking interventions is that the very next point we are about to make is stolen, but my hon. Friend is absolutely right. I will just remind the House that the president of the CBI this morning said:

“If we do not have a customs union, there are sectors of manufacturing society in the UK which risk becoming extinct... Be in no doubt, that is the reality.”

This is at the heart of the debate. If we destroy the manufacturing model that I just described, we destroy a vital part of the economy and job losses will be considerable. That is why there are such high levels of concern across the business community about the Government’s current approach.

--- Later in debate ---

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

I will confine my comments to the EEA and customs union. We have heard just about every side of the spectrum from the Opposition today: some want the EEA; some want the customs union; and some want both. So I am none the wiser now about exactly where the Labour party currently sits on this issue than I was at the start of the debate five hours ago, but what is clear for many is that it is a barely disguised attempt to keep Britain in the European Union in all but name. It is a barely disguised attempt to say to the 17.4 million people and to the 66% of constituencies across this country, “You were wrong. You little people did not know what you were doing and we know best.” I am sorry but the people of this country do know best. They knew what they were voting for, and that means leaving the customs union and the single market and gaining control of our laws, borders and money.

What is the reality of customs union membership? The EU has some of the most complicated trade schedules in the world. Why? Because it is a protectionist organisation. It is there to protect the food producers of France and Spain and the industrialists of Italy and Germany. If we were to join the customs union, we would be accepting in perpetuity whatever the EU decided to do for us. We would no longer ever be able to seek free trade arrangements or new trade deals around the world. We would be dragged into whatever trade war the EU might like to commence around this world, and we would have no voice—we would be able to do nothing about it.

There is a phrase that has not been said this afternoon, and that is vassal state. That is exactly what many Opposition Members would like us to become. We all have a view on the Department for International Development, but one thing is true: aid can work, and it often does, but what really works is trade. It has taken 1 billion people out of poverty around the planet over a generation. Peculiarly, the customs union has managed to do two unique things. It has managed to impoverish the poorest in this world by imposing trade barriers, and it has managed to force the poorest in this country—those on the lowest pay—to pay higher amounts for international goods that we do not produce ourselves, including footwear and food. Let us not slip into the customs union, because the single market will follow and it will mean not leaving the EU.

[Emma Reynolds]

I will focus my remarks on the customs union and the single market. There may well be differences of opinion on our Benches, but I respect all my right hon. and hon. Friends; I know they are trying to do the right thing by the country and by their constituents. But our differences are nothing compared with the divisions on the Government Benches, and it is a bit rich of the hon. Member for South Thanet (Craig Mackinlay) to lecture us on being divided.

The truth is that the Government are making a huge mess of Brexit. Two years after the referendum, we still do not know what their position is. The truth is that kicking the can down the road cannot continue to be the Government’s strategy. The clock is ticking and time is running out; we cannot leave everything to the October summit.

I shall vote in favour of the customs union amendments because I believe that to remain in it is vital to manufacturing. Jaguar Land Rover is on the border of my constituency and has recently announced job cuts and the movement of facilities to Slovakia, which I am very concerned about; those announcements were partly down to concerns about Brexit uncertainty.

Today, the CBI president warned that manufacturing sectors, including the car industry, will face extinction if we leave the customs union. He also said:

“There’s zero evidence that independent trade deals will provide any economic benefit to the UK that’s material.”

That is borne out by the Government’s own leaked economic analysis. In trade, geography matters. The EU is on our doorstep and our economy is deeply integrated with its economy.

That brings me to Lords amendment 51 and the Labour Front-Bench amendment (a) to it, both of which I shall support, after careful consideration. These may be complex issues—as a member of the Brexit Select Committee, I have spent many hours hearing evidence about the customs union, the single market, the EEA and the other different models—but my approach to this question is simple: the economy has to come first. The economics are clear, and I feel I have a duty to prioritise jobs, livelihoods and public services for my constituents. I acknowledge that the EEA is not perfect, but, for the minute, the combination of the EEA and the customs union is the only way to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland.

I acknowledge that my constituents and others have serious and sincere concerns about immigration, but another motivation for voting leave among people in my constituency was a sense that the economy is not working for them. We need a new settlement for working-class communities in our country. We need targeted investment in public services in areas such as mine. We need more teachers in schools and much better early years childcare. Austerity was one reason why we lost the referendum; people really do feel that their economy is not working for them.

[Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con)]

I think a bit of a reality check is happening in the House and in the country. There was realism from the Government yesterday and good progress in several areas, which I welcome. There must also be a reality check about what happens next.

The vote to leave the European Union was purely that: a vote to leave the political institutions. That is all that it said on the ballot paper. It said nothing else. I respect that mandate, but it is the right of Parliament, working with the Government, to have a say in how we deliver that and what our future relationship is. My test for that is twofold. First, in every circumstance, we must protect the integrity of the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. As far as I am concerned, that is more important than anything, including referendum results. I believe that the Government have got that message, and the very important step that was taken yesterday meets that test. I support the Government on that, but we must make sure that it is delivered in practice, with no hard border.

Secondly, my other test is to make sure that we look after the economic wellbeing of my constituents and the public services on which they depend. I do not favour some kind of ideological Brexit. There is an attempt to hijack the referendum result in pursuit of a very narrow, ideological version. That is not the pragmatic version that I, as a Conservative, believe in. I am a Conservative because I am a pragmatist. I listen to voices of business and want to put business and jobs at the centre of Brexit.

The customs union is not perfect and I shall not support the EEA amendments tonight, because this is not the Bill for them—this Bill is about process and getting the statute book right—but I say to the Government that the time to have that debate is when we return to the Trade Bill, an amendment to which I have put my name to, along with other Members. If a practical outcome involves something that looks like a union—call it an arrangement; I do not mind—I want to give the Prime Minister the flexibility to achieve that. She is entitled to time to try to achieve that between now and June, so I shall support the Government in all tonight’s votes.

On the legal matters, I am persuaded. It was a great difficulty to have to choose between my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) and my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor General. On balance, I am with Lord Judge, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood and Lord Mackay of Clashfern. The Government have worked hard to improve the legal matters of retained EU law. I have had good and positive conversations with them and hope to continue to do so. The key thing about this is that, for the country’s sake, we have to be pragmatists now. I think that the Prime Minister gets that and I will support her for that reason, but the pragmatist takes nothing off the table, and that is how we should keep it, as of today.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Emma Reynolds Excerpts

Report stage: First Day: House of Commons
Tuesday 16th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Leslie]

As it happens, since that time we have learned that the charter provides extremely important protections for many citizens. I do not think the Government would have cited it in legal actions against the tobacco companies if it were such an unimportant protection.

[Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)]

Does not the right hon. Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) make our point for us? So many on the Tory Benches disregard the importance of the charter.

[Mr Leslie]

I am worried. The right hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) was saying to her hon. Friends, “Be careful because our constituents do care about rights.” She said in particular that younger people care about rights. They really do matter. They may not matter to them in their daily lives today, but they may matter to them or their family or relatives or the environment tomorrow. Those are all things our constituents care about.

Legal aid

Emma Reynolds Excerpts

Tuesday 14th December 2010 Westminster Hall

[Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) on securing this important debate. The changes and cuts proposed in the Government’s legal aid Green Paper are of great concern across the country, as we have heard this morning, but in particular in areas such as Wolverhampton, where there are high levels of deprivation. The only recourse to justice for people who are deprived and vulnerable is through the legal aid budget.

I would like to make two brief points. First, the legal aid system was instigated by the post-war Labour Government at a time of national deficit, and hot on the heels of setting up the NHS. The legal aid system has become a pillar of the welfare state. If these Green Paper proposals go forward, that pillar will be put at risk. We should not forget that before 1949 the only people able to access justice in our country were those who could afford it. I do not want to go back to that.

Secondly, I want to put on record my tremendous respect for the professionalism and work of citizens advice bureaux up and down the country, but in particular in Wolverhampton. Wolverhampton CAB deals with 14,000 inquiries every year, which is astonishing. Of those, 1,700 are legal aid inquiries. It is widely recognised by others in the region that Wolverhampton CAB is a beacon of best practice. Last year, it won the outstanding black country business of the year award, voted for by the black country chamber of commerce, for doubling its work load with the same resources.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

As in Wolverhampton, in Swansea the CAB does a marvellous job. Its contract for legal aid for debt and welfare was terminated on 14 November and since then no one has had that contract. There has been a signal that it might get it again. Is it not appalling that there should be a hole in the budget flow, a change of provider and great uncertainty among very vulnerable groups? Does my hon. Friend share my concern about financial provision and continuity for the future for the CAB?

[Emma Reynolds]

I could not have put it better myself. There are great concerns in the CAB in Wolverhampton. It is facing a cut not only in legal aid, but in the financial inclusion fund, to which I will refer briefly later.

I want to come on to the issue of the day. I know a lot of hon. Members are concerned about the cost of the legal aid budget. Let us not forget that the starting point for our debate today, as recognised in the Government’s Green Paper, is that half a million people in our country get help from the legal aid budget. That is a sign of a civilised country; it is something to be proud of, not to be attacked or ashamed of. Although we obviously have to look at the costs, I remind colleagues of my earlier point: the previous Government were looking at these issues. In the past 10 years, there was a reduction in real terms in civil legal aid of 24%. Capping the fees paid to solicitors and barristers was also being considered, as well as getting better value for money for the taxpayer by looking at how contracts were awarded and seeking economies of scale. That sort of rationalisation is a far cry from removing wholesale entire categories of legal aid from the budget. For example, family law, which other hon. Members have mentioned, welfare benefits, debt, housing and education.

I want to refer specifically to withdrawing legal aid in cases of welfare benefits. Around 80% of the social welfare legal aid cases dealt with by the CAB record positive outcomes for the individual involved. That goes to show that there are issues there. When the Government are bringing forward deep and far-reaching welfare reforms—I do not believe that they should—it is precisely the wrong time to be taking this area completely out of the scope of legal aid.

[Kate Green]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the poor quality of decision making in the social security system also creates an increased need for legal aid? We all naturally hope that that level of decision making can be improved, and I hope that the Government will give that attention. In the meantime, it is important for people to have that protection, particularly when we look at the high rate of successful appeals against decisions on employment and support allowance.

[Emma Reynolds]

I could not agree more. Members of all parties know that such examples come up time and again in their surgeries. The other day someone came to my surgery who had been overpaid benefits and now has a massive sum to pay back, though the matter was not their fault. The state has responsibility to such people.

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

Is my hon. Friend as shocked as I was to hear from Nottingham law centre that 42% of the clients’ problems it helps to solve are caused by administrative or procedural errors by Departments or local authorities? Does she share my concern that many of those constituents who had help have poor levels of education and that some struggle with literacy? Without assistance from a law centre, they will not be able to resolve those problems.

[Emma Reynolds]

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. That goes to the heart of the argument. These cuts will affect the most vulnerable in our society; yet another example of Government cuts hitting the poorest hardest.

I want to refer to taking debt out of the legal aid budget. The Government have recognised in the Green Paper that many of the people who are mired in debt are ill or disabled, and that debt often afflicts the most vulnerable in society. Yet they are still proceeding to introduce proposals and measures that will deny those people access to legal advice and representation.

I will briefly mention something I raised in the House last week. I asked the Leader of the House what was going to happen to the financial inclusion fund, which is a great source of help for people with debt problems. In Wolverhampton, hundreds of people are helped every year by this fund. I was given wise counsel by the Leader of the House that I should raise the issue this morning. He was sure that the Minister would give me an answer. I know that the matter is being administered by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Treasury, but I urge the Minister to give clarity on whether the fund is to go ahead beyond March. Again, the uncertainty that my hon. Friends have raised applies and it is not helpful.

I do not wish to be too long because I know that other colleagues want to get in. I want to add that, apart from failing the test of social justice, these proposals also fail on a cost-benefit analysis.

My hon. Friend the Member for Westminster North eloquently explained that the cuts will be a false economy in many areas. The National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux published a business case for legal aid this year. It said that for every pound of legal aid spent on housing advice, the state saves £2.34, and for every pound spent on debt advice, the state saves £2.98. It also stated that on welfare benefit advice, the state saves £8.80, and that on employment advice, it could save £7.13.

Have the Government looked properly at the savings that early intervention makes possible? Have they done a proper cost-benefit analysis of the costs of their proposals for public services down the line? I fear that this is short-sighted, and that the Government are seeking short-term savings that will have significant costs later. Other Members have made the same point.

The other thing that worries me is that the Government say in the Green Paper that other alternatives will be available. The document then outlines what those alternatives might be. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Westminster North has already mentioned this, but it is telling: NACAB says that the overwhelming majority of its client group will not be able to access the alternatives identified in the Green Paper.

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that although one alternative, the expansion of telephone advice, is welcome—I agree that not enough telephone information available—it is not suitable for the most vulnerable, particularly those in debt, as many who use mobile phones cut themselves off in order to save money?

[Emma Reynolds]

I could not agree more. There is no substitute for face-to-face counselling and advice. As my hon. Friend rightly states, the cuts mean that the only recourse for vulnerable people will be some sort of telephone system, but they may not be comfortable with it and might not be able to afford it.

The proposals in the Green Paper will make the poor poorer and the most vulnerable more vulnerable. The cuts should fall elsewhere. There are other ways to reform the legal aid budget, and the Government should think again.